MF In-Body Image Stabilization at Last!

[SrMphoto]

I've been waiting "forever" to hand-hold MF at (presumably) 1/125 and get tack sharp images. According to reports from Photokina, Fujifilm is working on the GFX 100 (102MP), and "...also features the world's first in-body image stabilization system for a medium format mirrorless camera." (https://www.imaging-resource.com/ne...rises-with-gfx-100mp-development-announcement)
:clap:

I am perfectly able to shoot tack sharp handheld images with an H6D or X1D camera at 1/125 sec, of course not with HC210mm ;-).

I wonder about the effectiveness of IBIS on a big sensor. I found my m43 cameras to have more effective IBIS than full-frame and APS-C cameras. This may also be the matter of engineering as some of the manufacturers are relatively new to IBIS technology.

Kudos to Fuji for pushing the MF technology forward. Hope that would not mean the end of existing, traditional manufacturers like Phase One and Hasselblad, who do not have the means and engineering capacity to move as fast as Fuji does.

 

[DB5]

and bigger batteries - more processing power, IBIS, etc.

I think Doug is dissembling, as any Phase dealer would be. The XF is a dinosaur in comparison. I'll be selling mine and moving to Fuji, once this becomes a reality. No question.

IBIS is great, as is full PDAF across 100% of frame. The choice for Phase is simple: step up, or fade away.

I agree. No need for these enormous dSLR's at 4 times the cost anymore.

 

[k-hawinkler]

No IBIS - no deal!!! :banghead:

 

[Michiel Schierbeek]

Wow! Price?

 

[hcubell]

The 'mock-up' is a camera which will deliver 100megapixels/image stabilised and capable of delivering 4K video the first serious large megapixel crossover monster to be made -combined with a a lens line-up made by a company whose MF /LF pedigree is as good as it gets ( just ask Hasselblad) call the Camera what you like, sneer at its Japanese maker by referencing a Company like Canon - whatever makes you feel better. My pre-order is already in and my XID and long relationshiop with Hasselblad is over....-

My reaction to the apparent increase in the mass of the camera body was purely based upon MY needs and desires. I have reached a stage in my life when I have ZERO interest in carrying gear that weighs the same or more than a Canon or Nikon Pro DSLR with a complement of “pro” zoom lenses. When I use a medium format camera, it is for my serious photography. I shoot off of a tripod close to 100% of the time with a medium format camera. On a tripod, IBIS is turned off. I would never dream of using it for “snaps.” 100mp for “snaps”? 4K video. Irrelevant to me. A Japanese-style menu system? No thanks.
You obviously have different needs and desires. Fine. To me, it’s good that we have choices. Some people can’t bear that others have different needs and have choices that fit their needs. It’s like tribal warfare. We are either on Team Fuji, or Team Phase, or Team Hasselblad, or....And if the other team doesn’t deliver what I want, I announce that the other teams are doomed to fail. Well, to paraphrase Mark Twain, the reports of their death are greatly exaggerated.

 

[DB5]

My reaction to the apparent increase in the mass of the camera body was purely based upon MY needs and desires. I have reached a stage in my life when I have ZERO interest in carrying gear that weighs the same or more than a Canon or Nikon Pro DSLR with a complement of “pro” zoom lenses. When I use a medium format camera, it is for my serious photography. I shoot off of a tripod close to 100% of the time with a medium format camera. On a tripod, IBIS is turned off. I would never dream of using it for “snaps.” 100mp for “snaps”? 4K video. Irrelevant to me. A Japanese-style menu system? No thanks.
You obviously have different needs and desires. Fine. To me, it’s good that we have choices. Some people can’t bear that others have different needs and have choices that fit their needs. It’s like tribal warfare. We are either on Team Fuji, or Team Phase, or Team Hasselblad, or....And if the other team doesn’t deliver what I want, I announce that the other teams are doomed to fail. Well, to paraphrase Mark Twain, the reports of their death are greatly exaggerated.

Are snaps everything that is handheld?

I make a living making snaps then. I rarely use a tripod.

 

[hcubell]

Are snaps everything that is handheld?

I make a living making snaps then. I rarely use a tripod.

It’s weird that with all of the commentary about the announcement of a 100mp GFX, which everybody knew was coming for what over a year now, nobody commented about the apparent sizable increase in the mass of the GFX body. I wonder why?

 

[PeterA]

My reaction to the apparent increase in the mass of the camera body was purely based upon MY needs and desires. I have reached a stage in my life when I have ZERO interest in carrying gear that weighs the same or more than a Canon or Nikon Pro DSLR with a complement of “pro” zoom lenses. When I use a medium format camera, it is for my serious photography. I shoot off of a tripod close to 100% of the time with a medium format camera. On a tripod, IBIS is turned off. I would never dream of using it for “snaps.” 100mp for “snaps”? 4K video. Irrelevant to me. A Japanese-style menu system? No thanks.
You obviously have different needs and desires. Fine. To me, it’s good that we have choices. Some people can’t bear that others have different needs and have choices that fit their needs. It’s like tribal warfare. We are either on Team Fuji, or Team Phase, or Team Hasselblad, or....And if the other team doesn’t deliver what I want, I announce that the other teams are doomed to fail. Well, to paraphrase Mark Twain, the reports of their death are greatly exaggerated.

I agree with your sentiment about choice being a good thing and every person has their own requirements and as you say" needs and desires". I also agree with your observation about weight as a major factor to consider. Like you I have no interest in tribal warfare - and perhaps I was over reacting to your comments about the camera looking like a Canon and reading negative bias in that.

the camera to me looks like a DSLR like my previous S series camera looked and like my SL looks. I like and use battery grips in the field and in studio because I like being able to use the functionality that the grips deliver as well as the longer battery life as well as the better balance it affords me.

My studio shooting with lights are all 'snaps' - I call anything not on a tripod a snap. There is no negative or pejorative intent in my use of the word 'snap'. A lot if not most of the best photographs ever made were what I'd call snaps. I don't need a tripod in studio or with strobe working with people - in fact I cant use a tripod in such situations - therefore IBIS is very very useful to me - much better than lens based OIS systems.

The camera has an inbuilt grip now- the GFX available now has an optional grip - that many people buy for reasons above use and Fuji has responded to user opinion about including the grip as part of the camera. the weight of the camera might surprise you- the GFX with grip and batteries is much lighter than the S or SL cameras I have used - not as light as the XID in this format for sure but lighter than a Phase One or a Hasselblad H series or a Pentax...

Would I walk around and use ambient light with this camera? Absolutely I would! the GFX I am trialing is a pleasure to walk around with - with battery grip off no heavier than my XID - with battery grip built in ala the 100 version? It will be no more difficult to use than My S was or my SL is - for me.

Woudl I put this camera on a tripod - sure why not - IBIS on off is an option. japanese menu systems? Fuji's menu system and its design philosophy allows every photographer to pretty much set up their camera to use the way it suits them - very very user friendly and easy - I also like the old school access tocore functionality that Fuji's dial system allows for.

but all that aside- what excites me is the price for performance package about to be delivered combined with now ( finally) a choice of raw processing and real tethering capability via Capture One. At 10K it opens up the obvious advantages of a high megapixel shooting capability matched to a high amenity of IBIS and despite the fact that you personally have no need for video - an order of magnitude creative potential for videography for those who do use it - never seen before in a hybrid camera.

Amazing technological development at an amazing price point - YMMV for sure and no problem with that!

atb
Pete

 

[dougpeterson]

I think Doug is dissembling, as any Phase dealer would be.

Was I dissembling when I said I agree IBIS is “a good feature to have” or that I would absolutely “love another stop or two from IBIS”?

I own an XH1 and X-Pro 1; they are my second and third camera when I shoot a wedding with a Phase. I think Fuji makes nice cameras.

My comments were that medium format can be hand held with or without ibis and that if I had to choose a stop of ISO performance or a stop of IBIS I’d choose the former. I think that’s an objectively fair analysis/position. Please explain how or where I’m “dissembling” which impugns my motives and fairness. My gut is you’re responding to what you assumed I would write vs what I actually wrote.

 

[PeterA]

Was I dissembling when I said I agree IBIS is “a good feature to have” or that I would absolutely “love another stop or two from IBIS”?

I own an XH1 and X-Pro 1; they are my second and third camera when I shoot a wedding with a Phase. I think Fuji makes nice cameras.

My comments were that medium format can be hand held with or without ibis and that if I had to choose a stop of ISO performance or a stop of IBIS I’d choose the former. I think that’s an objectively fair analysis/position. Please explain how or where I’m “dissembling” which impugns my motives and fairness. My gut is you’re responding to what you assumed I would write vs what I actually wrote.

You know I love you Doug <big hug> couldn't resist the little jab at Capture One though: FYI I've ordered my Capture One keyboard - I'm on board to use on my IMac Pro and climb the C1 learning curve..old dog new tricks...(well not so old ...):grin:

 

[drevil]

Wow! Price?

around 10k

 

[MrSmith]

Was I dissembling when I said I agree IBIS is “a good feature to have” or that I would absolutely “love another stop or two from IBIS”?

would you love more than one af zone? like zillions all over the sensor?:thumbup:

 

[dougpeterson]

would you love more than one af zone? like zillions all over the sensor?:thumbup:

Absolutely. Provided that the control system is well implemented, the more focus points the better. Better than that would be a camera you don't need to focus (retroactive selection of focus a la Lytro). Better yet would be a camera you don't need to position or light (retroactive selection of point-of-view and lighting via real-time multi-camera photogrammetry). Better even still would be a camera that doesn't require the subject to actually exist (holodeck).

But I also personally prefer to look through an OVF or WLF rather than an EVF; I own an Fuji XH1 and X-Pro 1 and while the XH1 is better on paper (i.e. the spec sheet) I still greatly prefer to shoot with the X-Pro 1 since it has a rangefinder window (a full optical view finder would be better yet, but of course that's impossible with a mirrorless camera). So if you gave me the choice between an SLR with one focus point and an EVF with a billion I would still choose the SLR for most of what I shoot, but I have no expectation that my personal preferences and priorities extrapolate to any one else. Maybe one day I'll find the experience of shooting with an EVF to be as pleasant, tactile, organic, natural, and engaging as an OVF, but that's not my experience today. So even if there were viable Lytro-esque systems or holodecks I wouldn't find them enjoyable to use to create images!

I object to the thought process that as soon as one camera has a particular feature that any camera without that particular feature is an ancient dinosaur or is useless. It's a feature, to be weighed by each photographer alongside the other pros and cons of each system. For some it will be extremely important, for others it will be of almost no value (or negative value if it adds weight/size to the system or has other cons). Extrapolating your own needs and wants and priorities onto the broader market is always a dangerous thing to do, especially when talking about niche parts of the market. Most of the people for whom great IBIS is so incredibly important that they couldn't consider a camera without it, would probably be better served by one of the cameras like the OM series that (because they have a physically smaller, less heavy sensor, and several generations of improvement) are best-in-class when it comes to IBIS.

So again, IBIS and multi-point AF are both useful and desirable features. I only object to the idea that any camera that doesn't have them is doomed or useless or a dinosaur.

Over the last several years one of the camera types that has seen the most growth amongst my clients and friends is film bodies like the Mamiya RZ, Mamiya 7, and Leica M (film models). Many of these bodies don't even have autofocus, let alone features like IBIS. I guess you can call them "dinosaurs" but if someone likes shooting them and it works in the shooting scenarios they need it to work in: they should saddle up those dinosaurs and ride!

----

[note this paragraph is more about predicting the long-term future and being an amateur futurist than about today or the near-future] On a relatively unrelated noted: I actually think IBIS is a temporary/transitory technology. I suspect in another decade no cameras will have it because they will be using a combination of computational photography and higher ISO. If you can produce a great image at ISO 1 million, and if you can get a 1000fps realtime readout of each pixel then physically stabilizing the lens or sensor does not add value; couple that the downside of having moving parts (mirrors, shutters, stabilizers) and I think that at some point they just go away. None of this limits its utility or desirability today (or for many years to come); it has both utility and desirability today (and for years to come); I only mention it because I enjoy thinking about the long-term future of photographic art and commerce. As with any prediction, I won't be surprised if I'm wrong. The key to being a futurist is to predict things sufficiently far into the future that when they don't happen, nobody remembers you were wrong. Heck, with a sufficiently long time-scale Human Beings are probably a transitory technology . For fun here is an article I wrote a decade ago: The Virtual Future of Still Images.

 

[faberryman]

Absolutely. Provided that the control system is well implemented, the more focus points the better. Better than that would be a camera you don't need to focus (retroactive selection of focus a la Lytro). Better yet would be a camera you don't need to position or light (retroactive selection of point-of-view and lighting via real-time multi-camera photogrammetry). Better even still would be a camera that doesn't require the subject to actually exist (holodeck).

What an absurd defense of a camera lacking features. Desperation?

 

[JeRuFo]

Pretty soon the dynamic range of cameras will be so enormous and the automatic focus point selection will be so good, that all you need for shooting weddings is an aperture control ring on the lens and a huge optical viewfinder and just shoot away.

 

[k-hawinkler]

Pretty soon the dynamic range of cameras will be so enormous and the automatic focus point selection will be so good, that all you need for shooting weddings is an aperture control ring on the lens and a huge optical viewfinder and just shoot away.

Yup provided you registered the bride in Eye-AF.

 

[kdphotography]

The increased size of the proposed Fuji GFX 100 with its integrated grip will be a deal killer for me. As the camera body gets larger and heavier, it inches up towards being a Phase XF---and for me, I like the smaller form factor of the GFX50s. I prefer having the choice to add the grip if desired. The truth of the matter for me is that IBIS really is not all that necessary as I am typically locked down on a tripod. That being said, IBIS is a feature to covet as I think it would be helpful for those few times that I am shooting off-tripod.

I'm excited to see more options in medium format digital----and Capture One Pro including Fuji is huge to me. I somewhat snicker at the comments of the demise of Phase or Hasselblad. All have their feature sets. And Dante is happy to announce that there is something to please everyone. And you know that Dante just loves to see more happy photographers here.

Ken

 

[tcdeveau]

The increased size of the proposed Fuji GFX 100 with its integrated grip will be a deal killer for me. As the camera body gets larger and heavier, it inches up towards being a Phase XF---and for me, I like the smaller form factor of the GFX50s. I prefer having the choice to add the grip if desired. The truth of the matter for me is that IBIS really is not all that necessary as I am typically locked down on a tripod. That being said, IBIS is a feature to covet as I think it would be helpful for those few times that I am shooting off-tripod.

I'm excited to see more options in medium format digital----and Capture One Pro including Fuji is huge to me. I somewhat snicker at the comments of the demise of Phase or Hasselblad. All have their feature sets and something to please everyone. And you know that Dante just loves to see more happy photographers here.

Ken

Given all the different camera lines Fuji runs concurrently on the APS-C front (X-E3, X-T3, X-H1, for example, different bodies with slightly different feature sets), I wouldn't be surprised if at some point down the line we see a GFX-100R or smaller form-factor GFX-100 without IBIS and without some of the goodies the GFX100 currently in development has. I'd be all for it and think the more options we photographers have the better.

Although I'm an X1D shooter, I also prefer the smaller body size of the GFX50s/r and the X1D. Smaller/lighter fits my needs better, and although the addition of IBIS to MF is wonderful to have as an option, I don't need it for my shooting style....or 4k video for that matter.

 

[hcubell]

Given all the different camera lines Fuji runs concurrently on the APS-C front (X-E3, X-T3, X-H1, for example, different bodies with slightly different feature sets), I wouldn't be surprised if at some point down the line we see a GFX-100R or smaller form-factor GFX-100 without IBIS and without some of the goodies the GFX100 currently in development has. I'd be all for it and think the more options we photographers have the better.

Although I'm an X1D shooter, I also prefer the smaller body size of the GFX50s/r and the X1D. Smaller/lighter fits my needs better, and although the addition of IBIS to MF is wonderful to have as an option, I don't need it for my shooting style....or 4k video for that matter.

I complete agree that all of these camera systems have different feature sets, form factors, and user interfaces. We all have different needs and will evaluate everything based upon what is most important to each of us. Everyone prioritizes things differently. I, for one, am delighted that we have really good alternatives to choose from. The last thing we should be doing is trumpeting/predicting the demise of Hasselblad or Phase One.

 

[narikin]

But if you gave me the choice between another clean stop of ISO or a stop of IBIS I wouldn't hesitate to pick the ISO. IBIS doesn't help unless you're in the gray zone between hand-holdable and not hand-holdable, nor does it help with moving subjects.

Doug - ok you ask why are you dissembling?

You are a Phase dealer. You sell XF cameras, not Fuji. It is to your business' advantage for people not to want Fuji with it's IBIS, as Phase doesn't have it, and if it is in fact a great feature, that will directly affect your bottom line, your company's sales, possibly quite seriously. Then you make the above statement, which I take with a pinch of salt. Hence 'dissembling'...

Gaining an extra stop, (or TWO!), of hand-holdability means you can have a lower ISO for any given handheld lighting situation. I.e. an XF vs a Fuji w IBIS, either the XF would need to be one or two stops higher ISO to allow a faster shutter speed and prevent camera shake, or conversely, the Fuji can use one or two steps lower ISO, with a slower shutter speed, and still be sharp, because it has IBIS, when the XF would be blurred! That's what IBIS allows: you get the advantages - lower ISO for a given exposure combo, or, at a fixed ISO, sharper images where you would have had camera shake in borderline lighting. To use an overused term... it's Win:Win!

There's a lot of helpful dealer input here, and we all appreciate it. On occasions it's colored by what y'all sell/represent, but mostly not. I truly value your time and input, but like everything reserve the right to have a healthy skepticism, when my brain and photo knowledge tells me otherwise.

No fight here, just airing another viewpoint. Thanks.