Technical Camera Pre-Purchase Questions

[Destin]

Hi all, long time reader here, first time poster.

Firstly, a little background about myself. I'm a panoramic shooter, (think Peter Lik style), my preferred medium for the past decade has been 6x17 transparencies shot on Velvia 50 mainly with a Fujinon GX617 & 90mm. You just can't beat the colours IMO. Due to the difficulties of servicing my Heidelberg Tango drum scanner here in Australia and increases in Medium Format resolution I purchased a Phase IQ3 100MP XF w/ Schneider 80mm around 2 years back, and then the Schneider 45mm Blue Ring soon after. I'm now looking at switching to a technical camera mostly for size/weight reduction benefits and also the ability for shifts/movements & filterability. I travel a lot for shots and I'm finding the size and weight of my full kit prohibitive.

I'm very much a 'get everything in camera' type of shooter and don't like to stitch or Photoshop. However I've recently found myself in a couple of situations (zero moving elements) where I would consider very occasionally stitching frames with the right equipment. Thanks to two other threads on this forum that I have read religiously I have narrowed down my purchase to the Alpa 12 STC, starting with the ALPA Rodenstock 40mm f/4.0 HR Alpagon (for filterability, size and weight), with plans to add maybe the ALPA HR Alpagon 5.6/70 mm later, and possibly ALPA HR Alpagon 5.6/23 mm a lot later? Maybe? Although users provided good arguments to Cambo and other systems I knew that I would always lust after the Alpa and would rather spend the extra now than have to switch later.

I have a few questions that I haven't been able to find answers to and hope that some experienced members might be kind enough to answer them for me.

- What is the difference between the ALPA Rodenstock 40mm f/4.0 HR Alpagon, SB17 (Short Barrel) and Long Barrel? Besides the obvious of the difference of barrel, what does this affect/change photographically if any? The Short Barrel appeals to me because of the (smaller?) footprint.

- My preference would be to use the Electronic Shutter as opposed to the wake up cable due to simplicity, shorter setup time and cost. I read that the read-out for the electronic shutter is around 1.6sec on the IQ3 100MP. How does this correlate to shutter speed (if at all). If I have some flora blowing in the wind and a shutter speed of 1.5sec yields motion blur will the Electronic Shutter also suffer from 'tearing'?

- I use a tripod 99.9% of the time but would love to experience some aerial shooting from the door of a helicopter. I know that the Alpa 12 STC is not the ideal camera for handheld, but can it be done (with difficulty)? Could it be done to a high standard using Electronic Shutter or would a wake up cable be needed? This is currently the only reason for hanging onto the XF but would love to recover some funds if possible.

- I've seen two versions of the ALPA Rodenstock 40mm f/4.0 HR Alpagon, SB17 listed on websites, one with a Gold band, and another with a Blue band around the lens. Which is newer, is there any difference between the two?

- We have 1 supplier here in Australia for this type of gear but am open to overseas suppliers if the price is right, can anyone recommend some? (I'm already familiar with Digital Transitions and know Doug is a proud contributor to the forum). In your experience is there much movement in price with regards to the prices listed on websites? With current exchange rates AUD-USD the outlay is hard to swallow.

- When stitching with Alpa 12 STC using shifts, does this have the same problem with filters as the nodal style of stitching? ie. imagine a Graduated Filter on a 45 degree, when you shift, is the graduation a continuation or does it start again (I hope that makes sense, sorry, not sure how to phrase this question).

- An upgrade to the IQ4 150MP.... could be an option down the track. Not a question, but if there are any considerations I should be aware of please let me know.


Thanks in advance.

 

[Jamgolf]

Since most of your questions are Alpa specific, I’ll let Alpa owners/dealers chime in. As to shooting “flora blowing in the wind”, at slower shutter speeds and use of electronic shutter, you’ll be fine and it will just be rendered as usual motion blur.

 

[Steve Hendrix]

Hi all, long time reader here, first time poster.

Firstly, a little background about myself. I'm a panoramic shooter, (think Peter Lik style), my preferred medium for the past decade has been 6x17 transparencies shot on Velvia 50 mainly with a Fujinon GX617 & 90mm. You just can't beat the colours IMO. Due to the difficulties of servicing my Heidelberg Tango drum scanner here in Australia and increases in Medium Format resolution I purchased a Phase IQ3 100MP XF w/ Schneider 80mm around 2 years back, and then the Schneider 45mm Blue Ring soon after. I'm now looking at switching to a technical camera mostly for size/weight reduction benefits and also the ability for shifts/movements & filterability. I travel a lot for shots and I'm finding the size and weight of my full kit prohibitive.

I'm very much a 'get everything in camera' type of shooter and don't like to stitch or Photoshop. However I've recently found myself in a couple of situations (zero moving elements) where I would consider very occasionally stitching frames with the right equipment. Thanks to two other threads on this forum that I have read religiously I have narrowed down my purchase to the Alpa 12 STC, starting with the ALPA Rodenstock 40mm f/4.0 HR Alpagon (for filterability, size and weight), with plans to add maybe the ALPA HR Alpagon 5.6/70 mm later, and possibly ALPA HR Alpagon 5.6/23 mm a lot later? Maybe? Although users provided good arguments to Cambo and other systems I knew that I would always lust after the Alpa and would rather spend the extra now than have to switch later.

I have a few questions that I haven't been able to find answers to and hope that some experienced members might be kind enough to answer them for me.

- What is the difference between the ALPA Rodenstock 40mm f/4.0 HR Alpagon, SB17 (Short Barrel) and Long Barrel? Besides the obvious of the difference of barrel, what does this affect/change photographically if any? The Short Barrel appeals to me because of the (smaller?) footprint.

- My preference would be to use the Electronic Shutter as opposed to the wake up cable due to simplicity, shorter setup time and cost. I read that the read-out for the electronic shutter is around 1.6sec on the IQ3 100MP. How does this correlate to shutter speed (if at all). If I have some flora blowing in the wind and a shutter speed of 1.5sec yields motion blur will the Electronic Shutter also suffer from 'tearing'?

- I use a tripod 99.9% of the time but would love to experience some aerial shooting from the door of a helicopter. I know that the Alpa 12 STC is not the ideal camera for handheld, but can it be done (with difficulty)? Could it be done to a high standard using Electronic Shutter or would a wake up cable be needed? This is currently the only reason for hanging onto the XF but would love to recover some funds if possible.

- I've seen two versions of the ALPA Rodenstock 40mm f/4.0 HR Alpagon, SB17 listed on websites, one with a Gold band, and another with a Blue band around the lens. Which is newer, is there any difference between the two?

- We have 1 supplier here in Australia for this type of gear but am open to overseas suppliers if the price is right, can anyone recommend some? (I'm already familiar with Digital Transitions and know Doug is a proud contributor to the forum). In your experience is there much movement in price with regards to the prices listed on websites? With current exchange rates AUD-USD the outlay is hard to swallow.

- When stitching with Alpa 12 STC using shifts, does this have the same problem with filters as the nodal style of stitching? ie. imagine a Graduated Filter on a 45 degree, when you shift, is the graduation a continuation or does it start again (I hope that makes sense, sorry, not sure how to phrase this question).

- An upgrade to the IQ4 150MP.... could be an option down the track. Not a question, but if there are any considerations I should be aware of please let me know.


Thanks in advance.

Hi Destin -

You would choose a short barrel over a long barrel if you were interested in adding a tilt capability. The shortened barrel allows room for a spacer, and the spacer could be a tilt spacer in this instance. No significant difference in the footprint. And no difference in price (other than the added cost of the tilt spacer).

There is no difference between a gold and blue ring 40HR, other than the color of the band. The gold ring does identify it as coming originally from Alpa, rather than the possibility of a lens purchased elsewhere that has been mounted in Alpa helical after the fact. Which, again, doesn't really matter.

For copter shooting with a tech cam, like an STC, yes you could set the latency to zero latency and shoot with cable release straight out. This would be preferable to normal latency with a wakeup (generally), although as long as your workflow fit, you could still shoot in normal latency by waking up, then capturing within 4 seconds. But in the air timing is probably more critical than a wake up and shoot within 4 seconds routine for most uses. There are various grip options for the STC, so you could shoot with a cable release that hangs down from the port on the lens, or you could thread it through a grip and shoot it with your index finger like a traditional SLR camera.

I am also a frequent contributor of real world-based product information to the GetDPI forum, and we are a dealer for all products below, including Alpa. Feel free to PM me with further questions.


Steve Hendrix/CI

 

[Destin]

it will just be rendered as usual motion blur.

Thanks for your reply. Say I'm trying to freeze any motion though, for example if I have a shutter speed of 1/50sec which would normally freeze any swaying flowers, will the electronic shutter still show motion with its 1.6sec readout?

 

[Destin]

The shortened barrel allows room for a spacer, and the spacer could be a tilt spacer in this instance. No significant difference in the footprint. And no difference in price (other than the added cost of the tilt spacer).

Steve Hendrix/CI

Ah ha, that makes perfect sense. I kept wondering how three different length barrels could all have the same focal length. So would I be correct in assuming the tilt adaptor (tilt spacer), can/needs to be left permanently attached with the same lens when tilting/not tilting? Also, can the 70mm be used with the same 17mm Tilt Adaptor?

Thanks for all of your answers.

 

[JeRuFo]

Ah ha, that makes perfect sense. I kept wondering how three different length barrels could all have the same focal length. So would I be correct in assuming the tilt adaptor (tilt spacer), can/needs to be left permanently attached with the same lens when tilting/not tilting? Also, can the 70mm be used with the same 17mm Tilt Adaptor?

Thanks for all of your answers.

Alpa elements are all standardized unless it's made to fit a certain lens or back. If all your barrels are shortened the same amount, you can leave the spacer attached to the body permanently. If you have both 34 and 17mm shortened barrels, you can leave a 17mm tilt adapter on the body permanently and keep a 17mm spacer on your 34mm shortened barrels permanently if you wish.

 

[dchew]

Thanks for your reply. Say I'm trying to freeze any motion though, for example if I have a shutter speed of 1/50sec which would normally freeze any swaying flowers, will the electronic shutter still show motion with its 1.6sec readout?

It takes 1.6 seconds to scan fron top to bottom, but the shutter speed at each point will be 1/50 of a second. So, if you had a breeze during the 1.6 sec readout the flower would be as sharp as a 1/50 sec shutter speed. It would be a little “bowed” depending on how big the flower is in the frame. If the flower was full frame in the image it would be more bowed than if it was a field of flowers.

Even if full frame, I think it would be tough to notice any effect with a subject like a flower. People, animals and other large moving objects like cars that have a very defined structure cause problems.

I’ve been shooting exclusively with the e-shutter ever since Phase released it; not once have I noticed the effect, including ocean waves, wind and fast moving clouds.

In my opinion it is much, much better to buy the short barrel lenses even if you never envision tilting. You never know where your photography will go. You may want to tilt in the future, and if you ever sell a lens the buyers will probably want that option. I use tilt a lot. It is so much easier to set now with live view.

JeRuFo explained exactly how I leave my Alpa set up. I keep the 17mm TS adapter on the front of the STC. I have some longer lenses that are sb34, so I bring another 17mm adapter and add that to the back of the STC for a total of 34mm.

Dave

 

[Nutcracker]

It takes 1.6 seconds to scan fron top to bottom, but the shutter speed at each point will be 1/50 of a second. So, if you had a breeze during the 1.6 sec readout the flower would be as sharp as a 1/50 sec shutter speed. It would be a little “bowed” depending on how big the flower is in the frame. If the flower was full frame in the image it would be more bowed than if it was a field of flowers.

Even if full frame, I think it would be tough to notice any effect with a subject like a flower. People, animals and other large moving objects like cars that have a very defined structure cause problems.

I’ve been shooting exclusively with the e-shutter ever since Phase released it; not once have I noticed the effect, including ocean waves, wind and fast moving clouds.

In my opinion it is much, much better to buy the short barrel lenses even if you never envision tilting. You never know where your photography will go. You may want to tilt in the future, and if you ever sell a lens the buyers will probably want that option. I use tilt a lot. It is so much easier to set now with live view.

JeRuFo explained exactly how I leave my Alpa set up. I keep the 17mm TS adapter on the front of the STC. I have some longer lenses that are sb34, so I bring another 17mm adapter and add that to the back of the STC for a total of 34mm.

Dave

The Short barrel lens, and the Alpa tilt adapter work really well, perfectly suited to your desires/needs.
Alpa will give you good advice on purchase requirements.
The EShutter on the 150 back released by XF 12 pin cable will give "non-touch" shutter release.

 

[Destin]

Even if full frame, I think it would be tough to notice any effect with a subject like a flower. People, animals and other large moving objects like cars that have a very defined structure cause problems.

I’ve been shooting exclusively with the e-shutter ever since Phase released it; not once have I noticed the effect, including ocean waves, wind and fast moving clouds.

Dave

That's great to know, thank you for clarifying, without using it first hand I wasn't able to get my head around it. It sounds like I will be able to avoid a wake-up cable completely. Generally the fastest moving subjects I photograph are waves, but like you say, they don't have a defined shape that needs preserving.

In my opinion it is much, much better to buy the short barrel lenses even if you never envision tilting. You never know where your photography will go. You may want to tilt in the future, and if you ever sell a lens the buyers will probably want that option. I use tilt a lot. It is so much easier to set now with live view. Dave

Really good points, I'm pretty much sold on the SB17 and tilt adapter for these reasons. Coming from film with sharp apertures at f32 I'm having a bit of trouble trying to avoid diffraction and still maintain focus throughout the frame... and stacking just isn't an option for me.

JeRuFo explained exactly how I leave my Alpa set up. I keep the 17mm TS adapter on the front of the STC. I have some longer lenses that are sb34, so I bring another 17mm adapter and add that to the back of the STC for a total of 34mm. Dave

I wouldn't have even thought of this, good tips thank you both.

 

[dchew]

I wouldn't have even thought of this, good tips thank you both.

The other thing about your adapter choice: If you ever decide to include longer lenses, it helps to have at least 17mm on the back of the STC to avoid vignetting against the sides of the camera when shifting 18mm. For example, the 150mm vignettes if I put 34mm on the front and nothing on the back. But 17mm on the front and 17mm on the back eliminates that problem.

If you think about the process in the field, keeping the 17mm TS on the front and adding 17mm to the back when using SB 34 lenses also means less fumbling around moving and swapping adapters.

I think the best purchase combo is:

1. Always purchase SB lens mounts
2. Purchase one 17mm TS adapter for the SB 17 lenses
3. If / when you want a longer lens that comes in an SB 34 mount, purchase a second 17mm (non TS) adapter

Then you are set up for anything.

Dave

 

[dchew]

- When stitching with Alpa 12 STC using shifts, does this have the same problem with filters as the nodal style of stitching? ie. imagine a Graduated Filter on a 45 degree, when you shift, is the graduation a continuation or does it start again (I hope that makes sense, sorry, not sure how to phrase this question).

The graduation will continue. In other words, when you stitch them together it will be a seamless graduation.

You are not moving the lens, only the back’s position in the lens’ image circle so grads are no problem.

Dave

 

[Destin]

The graduation will continue. In other words, when you stitch them together it will be a seamless graduation.

You are not moving the lens, only the back’s position in the lens’ image circle so grads are no problem.

Dave

Thanks Dave, you're a wealth of knowledge.... and everyone else. I thought that might be the case but wanted to confirm.

I've definitely taken your tips on board re the adapters. Although longer lens will be down the track its good to get the foundation right from the start.

I was pretty set on the 40mm however, someone also mentioned the Schneider 43mm. I can't find much information on the new version. How does the GetDPI community feel 40mm Rodie vs 43mm Schneider?

Cheers,
Destin

 

[jng]

I was pretty set on the 40mm however, someone also mentioned the Schneider 43mm. I can't find much information on the new version. How does the GetDPI community feel 40mm Rodie vs 43mm Schneider?

Cheers,
Destin

If you Google "Schneider 43 vs. Rodenstock 40" as I did several years ago when faced with the same dilemma, the following thread on getDPI will likely come up as one of the top hits, along with several other similar ones:

https://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium...5106-rodenstock-40-hr-vs-schneider-43-xl.html

My own takeaway is that there really is no consensus about one being clearly superior to the other. Each would appear to have its pluses and minuses. For me it boiled down to whether I could be patient enough to find a decent copy of the SK43 in a reasonable timeframe. I couldn't, as it turned out, so I purchased a new Rodie 40 as my first tech cam lens. It's a stellar lens and is cleaner in terms of lens cast compared to the Schneider, unless of course you are shooting with the IQ4 150. The only real downsides are its bulk and somewhat greater distortion. Oh, and the Rodie doesn't come cheap but this is Dante's forum after all. I later picked up a used Rodenstock 70HR, which complements the 40 very nicely. YMMV, of course.

Good luck!

John

P.S. Yes, Dave is a font of knowledge, which both he and others are amazingly generous to share. But don't ask him about the morning in Carmel when he nearly dropped his back and Alpa w/lens attached while removing the rear spacer. :bugeyes:

 

[Boinger]

Thanks Dave, you're a wealth of knowledge.... and everyone else. I thought that might be the case but wanted to confirm.

I've definitely taken your tips on board re the adapters. Although longer lens will be down the track its good to get the foundation right from the start.

I was pretty set on the 40mm however, someone also mentioned the Schneider 43mm. I can't find much information on the new version. How does the GetDPI community feel 40mm Rodie vs 43mm Schneider?

Cheers,
Destin

As far as I understand it on the iq3 100mp the SK 43mm gets unacceptable color casts. Or with usable with limited movements.

The rodie 40mm would be better imo. I have one and it is very sharp I have never tried the SK 43 on my back.

 

[dchew]

I was pretty set on the 40mm however, someone also mentioned the Schneider 43mm. I can't find much information on the new version. How does the GetDPI community feel 40mm Rodie vs 43mm Schneider?

Cheers,
Destin

I started out with the 43xl; it was my first lens and I loved that lens. Back then, Alpa only had a 34mm TS adapter, no 17mm TS. You really couldn't tilt with very many wide angle lenses. Somewhere around ~2011-13 they developed the 17mm TS, so I sold the 43xl and bought the 40hr (sb17) with the tilt adapter so I could tilt that focal length. You cannot tilt the 43xl with Alpa; there is not enough room to make it in an SB mount. Disadvantages of the 43xl: more color cast, no tilt with Alpa, more difficult to find. Advantages: smaller, lighter, no distortion, cheaper.

Note the 40hr's real focal length is 41.85mm, and the 43xl is really 44.6mm. They are both a bit longer than the name implies.

P.S. Yes, Dave is a font of knowledge, which both he and others are amazingly generous to share. But don't ask him about the morning in Carmel when he nearly dropped his back and Alpa w/lens attached while removing the rear spacer. :bugeyes:

Yeah, I broke one of my Cardinal Rules that morning: Don't change lenses or adapters while standing around with the camera in your hand; do those things with the camera on the tripod or in the bag. We weren't designed with enough hands. John is a very good catch, by the way. We should nickname him "Allstate". :thumbup:

Dave

 

[jng]

Yeah, I broke one of my Cardinal Rules that morning: Don't change lenses or adapters while standing around with the camera in your hand; do those things with the camera on the tripod or in the bag. We weren't designed with enough hands. John is a very good catch, by the way. We should nickname him "Allstate". :thumbup:

Dave

Actually, the way I remember this is that Dave managed to catch both the back and the lens/body (one in each hand) before they hit the ground, although in that split second I was wondering which one he'd try to save if he couldn't catch both. Must be all that practice juggling chain saws. This was the look on his face: :bugeyes: when he made "the catch."

Seriously, though, with such expensive gear I think it's important to establish a routine for assembly and disassembly and not deviate from it. As with Dave, my cardinal rule is to mount and dismount the back or lens only when locked down on the tripod or on stable surface like a table or my open pack when in the field. And I don't let go until I've confirmed all latches have clicked into place and there's no wiggle in the connection.

John