New Hassy on the way?

[drunkenspyder]

What do you expect from BSI technology? It gave a third of a stop advantage on Sony's RX100 and the benefits are mostly with the smaller sensors.

Dude has already mentioned color shift, which is an important BSI benefit on the IQ4. Obviously, what one gets out of BSI depends in part on what the manufacturer and the aggregator [Hassy/DJI] engineer from it. In theory, better color, noise, and detail. It's not like the X1D is a slouch here. It's superb, but there is always better. And based on listening to Phase engineers, and my own IQ3 vs. IQ4 experience, it may be true that smaller sensors benefit proportionately more, but it doesn't mean larger ones don't benefit.

 

[SrMphoto]

Dude has already mentioned color shift, which is an important BSI benefit on the IQ4. Obviously, what one gets out of BSI depends in part on what the manufacturer and the aggregator [Hassy/DJI] engineer from it. In theory, better color, noise, and detail. It's not like the X1D is a slouch here. It's superb, but there is always better. And based on listening to Phase engineers, and my own IQ3 vs. IQ4 experience, it may be true that smaller sensors benefit proportionately more, but it doesn't mean larger ones don't benefit.

Thank you for pointing those out. I have never heard of color shift, color quality, noise, and detail as a distinct advantage of BSI FF & MF sensors. Do you have any non-PR documentation/articles that explain and support it?

Nikon, e.g., mentions that BSI technology helps them (only?) with "speed." I do not know of any FF BSI sensor that helps with color-shift, color, noise, and detail.

 

[Christopher]

Just take a quick look at some IQ4150 topics about tech cameras. The difference between Iq300 and Iq4150 is huge. In addition to lens cast problems, which are so much better with BSI, there is also the noise improvement. Which is quite an accomplishment, that the 150Mp has less noise compared to the 100Mp version.

Thank you for pointing those out. I have never heard of color shift, color quality, noise, and detail as a distinct advantage of BSI FF & MF sensors. Do you have any non-PR documentation/articles that explain and support it?

Nikon, e.g., mentions that BSI technology helps them (only?) with "speed." I do not know of any FF BSI sensor that helps with color-shift, color, noise, and detail.

 

[Paul2660]

What do you expect from BSI technology? It gave a third of a stop advantage on Sony's RX100 and the benefits are mostly with the smaller sensors.

This is a good question, as I expected more from BSI from both Nikon (D850) and Phase (IQ4). Neither camera from my use has shown a reduction in noise, in fact the Nikon D850 IMO even at base ISO 64 can pull a bit more noise than the D810, and on the IQ4, IMO it's very close to the same as what I saw on the IQ3100. The IQ4 from my use may have 1/3 of a stop more DR than the IQ3100, but as you increase the ISO, the noise becomes very similar to the IQ3100. I had hoped for more push, but I have not found it. I appear to be an exception on this, so it might be my back. Strongly recommend anyone demo the back to see if they receive what they are expecting.

BSI,(I assume it's due to BSI), from my use does make a huge difference in how the chip responds to tech camera lenses, and that difference is really amazing. Even the 35mm XL Schneider can be used many times without needing a LCC and the lens can be used without the CF, something that was impossible before with any back. The the IQ4, you still need to consider a LCC for light fall off, as you shift, but that is true with any lens/camera where you shift off center. However with the IQ3100, off center shifts, also picked up quite a bit of noise, which again I just don't see with the IQ4. And as you move off of center, the color cast on the IQ3100 was a major issue, and in many instances not correctable fully with the LCC. I had considered selling off my entire tech lens/camera selection due to non use, once I moved to the 3100. But glad I did not as the results from the IQ4 have been stellar. IMO Phase One should make a bigger deal out of this, as they should have when they released the ES for the 3100, as that was also IMO the single most important feature released for the 3100.

Paul C

 

[SrMphoto]

Just take a quick look at some IQ4150 topics about tech cameras. The difference between Iq300 and Iq4150 is huge. In addition to lens cast problems, which are so much better with BSI, there is also the noise improvement. Which is quite an accomplishment, that the 150Mp has less noise compared to the 100Mp version.

IQ3 100 and IQ4 150 have different sensors, AFAIK. It is not clear to me how much IQ4 150 benefits are due to BSI technology alone.
I did find a noise comparison article from CI, but it compared the scaled output (same resolution). IMO, that is the right way to compare noise, but it is also typically expected when comparing similar technology sensors with different resolutions (higher resolution sensors have usually better noise behavior when scaled to the same resolution of a lower resolution sensor).

Note that new Lumix S1R/S1 cameras do not have BSI sensors and are doing pretty well.

 

[dougpeterson]

IQ4 150mp vs IQ3 100mp Tri: modest increase of DR (decrease in noise) when compared at 100% pixel view, with a larger improvement to noise found when comparing at a given (large) print size. The improvement that BSI provides (along with other P1 improvements like the new darkframe factory calibration routine and fine tuned Capture One raw processing) is significant but is partly offset by the decreased size of the pixel.

Said differently, against the strong headwind of decreasing the size of the pixel, P1 managed to (modestly) make improvements in dynamic range / noise. It’s not so much the size of the gain that is impressive, but rather that they gained rather than lost ground, while providing a 50% gain in pixel count.

We have various raw file comparisons that exhibit this; just contact your DT rep for links. We are also glad to arrange for you to do your own independent testing.

 

[dougpeterson]

Thank you for pointing those out. I have never heard of color shift, color quality, noise, and detail as a distinct advantage of BSI FF & MF sensors. Do you have any non-PR documentation/articles that explain and support it?

Nikon, e.g., mentions that BSI technology helps them (only?) with "speed." I do not know of any FF BSI sensor that helps with color-shift, color, noise, and detail.

The reduction in color cast is profound/huge/unmissable. The improvement to noise is pretty meaningful, but partly offset by the decreased pixel size in the specific case of P1’s transition to BSI.

Color cast: https://phaseoneiq4.com/phase-one-iq4-150mp-tech-camera-raw-files/ and https://phaseoneiq4.com/11-reasons-tech-camera-users-will-love-the-iq4/ and https://phaseoneiq4.com/dts-iq4-tech-camera-testing/

BSI tech: https://phaseoneiq4.com/backside-illuminated-bsi-sensors-demystified/

 

[Paul2660]

IQ4 150mp vs IQ3 100mp Tri: modest increase of DR (decrease in noise) when compared at 100% pixel view, with a larger improvement to noise found when comparing at a given (large) print size. The improvement that BSI provides (along with other P1 improvements like the new darkframe factory calibration routine and fine tuned Capture One raw processing) is significant but is partly offset by the decreased size of the pixel.

Said differently, against the strong headwind of decreasing the size of the pixel, P1 managed to (modestly) make improvements in dynamic range / noise. It’s not so much the size of the gain that is impressive, but rather that they gained rather than lost ground, while providing a 50% gain in pixel count.

We have various raw file comparisons that exhibit this; just contact your DT rep for links. We are also glad to arrange for you to do your own independent testing.

Well said. And a good point as I did not mention the fact that Phase did what they did in regards to noise with a 50 percent gain in resolution and overall smaller pixel size.

The impressive improvement in tech camera performance speaks for itself and Phase should be strongly commended.

Paul C

 

[Paul2660]

Thank you for pointing those out. I have never heard of color shift, color quality, noise, and detail as a distinct advantage of BSI FF & MF sensors. Do you have any non-PR documentation/articles that explain and support it?

Nikon, e.g., mentions that BSI technology helps them (only?) with "speed." I do not know of any FF BSI sensor that helps with color-shift, color, noise, and detail.

Point well taken. Nikon never did mention it but much has been written about BSI and how by design it should improve the overall single pixel noise response. As for Phase One and the tech camera improvement I can’t think of anything else that would be beneficial but there might be for sure. From what I have read in BSI it seems to benefit the angle of light on the sensor especially towards the edge and thus color cast.

Paul C

 

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

The area where BSI has benefits is mainly using technical cameras which allow for shifts and tilts. As the distance between the CFA (Color Filter Array) and the photodiode is small in BSI designs, they may be less subject to crosstalk.

It has been shown that the 150 MP sensor offers a major advantage over the 100MP sensor in this aspect.

Another benefit of the BSI design is that the wiring is behind the photodiodes and doesn't compete for sensing surface. So, more complex wiring can be used.

Best regards
Erik

IQ3 100 and IQ4 150 have different sensors, AFAIK. It is not clear to me how much IQ4 150 benefits are due to BSI technology alone.
I did find a noise comparison article from CI, but it compared the scaled output (same resolution). IMO, that is the right way to compare noise, but it is also typically expected when comparing similar technology sensors with different resolutions (higher resolution sensors have usually better noise behavior when scaled to the same resolution of a lower resolution sensor).

Note that new Lumix S1R/S1 cameras do not have BSI sensors and are doing pretty well.

 

[mristuccia]

Well,

now it seems that Hasselblad is selling second-hand X1Ds with a 6 month warranty:

https://store.hasselblad.com/en/t/certified-pre-owned-x1d-cameras

Prices are not that bad...

 

[dave.gt]

Well,

now it seems that Hasselblad is selling second-hand X1Ds with a 6 month warranty:

https://store.hasselblad.com/en/t/certified-pre-owned-x1d-cameras

Prices are not that bad...

Hmmm... blank link!

 

[jdphoto]

I shot HB film cameras and loved them. I naturally gravitated to HB digital, but was disappointed in their QC and cheapish plastic design of the earlier H3D and H4D's. It would be nice if HB has a successful X2D in the works as the X1D seemed robust enough. I lost a bit of confidence with HB, but perhaps a restructuring of the company could be a good thing. I'd be hesitant to invest in any of their products right now for the same reason I wouldn't buy a Contax 645.

 

[mristuccia]

Hmmm... blank link!

Let me try again, with the original german link that I received from Hasselblad:

https://store.hasselblad.com/de/t/certified-pre-owned-x1d-cameras

This works on my browser. Maybe is it geographically restricted?

Think it is different for US from EU:
https://www.hasselblad.com/certified-pre-owned/

 

[Massive Si]

I shot HB film cameras and loved them. I naturally gravitated to HB digital, but was disappointed in their QC and cheapish plastic design of the earlier H3D and H4D's. It would be nice if HB has a successful X2D in the works as the X1D seemed robust enough. I lost a bit of confidence with HB, but perhaps a restructuring of the company could be a good thing. I'd be hesitant to invest in any of their products right now for the same reason I wouldn't buy a Contax 645.

this is my thinking

Although I am happy with my H body, it's very old (and I shoot with a P1 back) I have wanted an X1D for quite some time - I think its a beautiful looking bit of kit

however, I am nervous about the X line, I dont believe the official "it was just B&H running out of stock, there is no problem"

Are HB planning on making the X1D/X1Dii/X2D available direct only? This is possible
Are HB going to retire the entire X system?
Are HB going to release a new X camera?

I am reluctant to invest (invest being the wrong word as i am not a pro) in the camera with it's future so uncertain. I know some people are very down on HB, but I am not one of them. I want HB to be kicking out some killer cameras.

 

[vieri]

this is my thinking

Although I am happy with my H body, it's very old (and I shoot with a P1 back) I have wanted an X1D for quite some time - I think its a beautiful looking bit of kit

however, I am nervous about the X line, I dont believe the official "it was just B&H running out of stock, there is no problem"

Are HB planning on making the X1D/X1Dii/X2D available direct only? This is possible
Are HB going to retire the entire X system?
Are HB going to release a new X camera?

I am reluctant to invest (invest being the wrong word as i am not a pro) in the camera with it's future so uncertain. I know some people are very down on HB, but I am not one of them. I want HB to be kicking out some killer cameras.

About your questions, here are my views:

1. No, that would be a suicidal move: even Leica, which has their own Leica Stores, don't just go direct and I am pretty sure Hasselblad has no intention of taking out all their dealers' network;
2. No, that wouldn't make any sense, they just released new lenses and accessories;
3. Yes, I am pretty sure they will, and the fact that they are unloading their demo stock of X1D is a pretty strong sign that something new is coming up.

These are just my views and, while they make sense to me, I can of course be wrong Hope this helps, best regards

Vieri

 

[cerett]

About your questions, here are my views:

1. No, that would be a suicidal move: even Leica, which has their own Leica Stores, don't just go direct and I am pretty sure Hasselblad has no intention of taking out all their dealers' network;
2. No, that wouldn't make any sense, they just released new lenses and accessories;
3. Yes, I am pretty sure they will, and the fact that they are unloading their demo stock of X1D is a pretty strong sign that something new is coming up.

These are just my views and, while they make sense to me, I can of course be wrong Hope this helps, best regards

Vieri

Totally agree with your assessment. It seems that the X1D has really been a winner for Hasselblad. I look forward to the new camera.

 

[Massive Si]

Totally agree with your assessment. It seems that the X1D has really been a winner for Hasselblad. I look forward to the new camera.

its easy to come across as bashing hasselblad when expressing frustration at the lack of communication/stock availability/commitment to the future from them - that's not my intention.

I've been a Hassy shooter for a while now and I think the X1D is a thing of beauty. But they do have strong competition with the GFX 50/100 and I just hope they recognise that (I have/had brand loyalty with the H series - its hard for me to get onboard with the X series at this uncertain point)

 

[vieri]

its easy to come across as bashing hasselblad when expressing frustration at the lack of communication/stock availability/commitment to the future from them - that's not my intention.

I've been a Hassy shooter for a while now and I think the X1D is a thing of beauty. But they do have strong competition with the GFX 50/100 and I just hope they recognise that (I have/had brand loyalty with the H series - its hard for me to get onboard with the X series at this uncertain point)

Well, the X1D has been out for about three years. During these three years, Hasselblad released:

- The X1D, with pretty constant FW updates which not only fixed bugs but added a lot of features, some pretty substantial (i.e., electronic shutter);
- The 21mm, 30mm, 45mm, 65mm, 80mm, 90mm, 120mm Macro, 135mm lenses;
- 1.7 TC;
- Adapters to use H, V and X-Pan lenses;
- (Almost delivering) new battery charger + cable shutter release

Fuji released, in about the same timeframe:
- The GFX 50R, and recently the 50R (same camera, different body);
- 23mm, 45mm, 63mm, 110mm, 120mm Macro, 250mm, 32-64mm, 100-200mm;
- 1.4 TC;
- Adapters (H mount, macro adapters)

These are facts, pretty undeniable: HB released 1 camera (not counting the colour version, 4116, etc); 8 lenses; 1 TC converter; 3 adapters. Fuji released 1 camera + 1 of the same with different shaped body; 8 lenses; 1 TC converter; 1 H adapter and 2 macro adapter.

Plus, Fuji announced and prototyped their new 100MP version, which is not out yet; Hasselblad said they moved to an "announce when ready to ship" announcement policy, so they might as well have a new camera in the same stage of development as the Fuji 100MP, just we don't know about it. Or not. Either way, it doesn't seem to me that the lineup is much different, but I agree that he communication and marketing strategy are, and your comment tells me that Fuji's is probably more successful - at least with customer approaching their gear the way you do, of course, others might feel different.

Coming to communication etc., we are truly in the realm of opinions and personal preferences: some might prefer Fuji's approach, others Hasselblad's (or Leica's for that matter, since they are very similar). On the one hand, I appreciate it that everyone would like things to be communicated to them the way they like, but at the same time we should accept that camera makers might think differently. Whether we like it or not it's of course a different story - I came from three years of Leica, as an Ambassador, so trust me: I know your frustration, perhaps even more so since people for some reasons thought I should know all the secrets and just not tell them, while the truth was that I really didn't know much more that the general public - and if and when I did, I couldn't tell anyway, having signed a NDA.

About speculation, well that is fun, but is just that: fun, and an exercise, nothing more, as long as we don't have any more facts. Adding my .02 of speculation, this whole stock situation + the unloading of the old X1D demo cameras tell me that something is coming, and pretty soon too, since I don't quite see Hasselblad reps going to shows and such without any demo cameras. However, this is just my proverbial .02, nothing more.

Coming to your last message, you are obviously free to trust HB or not, of course, and I am not trying to change your mind (why would I). Personally, adding the facts up + the signs, I don't think HB is doomed, on the contrary. The X1D has been a great success, and they would be foolish not to capitalise and develop on that. As I said in my previous message, I very well could be wrong, but that's my impression

On a side note, I used Leica SL for three years, for most part of which we had the 24-90mm, 90-280mm and 50mm f/1.4 and that was it. Then, Leica released the 16-35mm. Then, the 75mm and 90mm. Total: 6 lenses in three years, vs. HB 9 in pretty much the same period of time. If you check the Leica forum, talks of doom periodically appeared; then, the L-mount alliance was announced and everyone rejoiced, then it appeared that Sigma didn't support the SL in their Sigma MC-21 adapter and everyone was pissed again, and so on... that's just life on forum. The real world, often, is much less dramatic

Best regards,

Vieri

 

[hcubell]

To summarize, Vieri's glass is half full. Massive Si's is half empty. That's the way it always is.