Progress on tech cam/Copal shutter cable for IQ4?

[Boinger]

Precisely what is the method of performing wake up on the back? Does one have to enter live view, or initiate a an ES exposure that is longer than the anticipated copal exposure and try to shoot down the middle - or what?

You have to be in normal shutter mode not E-shutter. Then you press the shutter button on the back, which wakes up the back similar to the wake up cable. Then you fire the copal shutter.

As far as I can tell I didn't see a 0 latency option yet. So if you had 0 latency enabled you could fire the shutter without waking up the back.

 

[tashley]

You have to be in normal shutter mode not E-shutter. Then you press the shutter button on the back, which wakes up the back similar to the wake up cable. Then you fire the copal shutter.

As far as I can tell I didn't see a 0 latency option yet. So if you had 0 latency enabled you could fire the shutter without waking up the back.

Mine is due any day now so I'll experiment. But I still don't understand because if the back is in normal shutter mode not ES, then how is there a shutter button showing on the back... Hmmmm

 

[Boinger]

Mine is due any day now so I'll experiment. But I still don't understand because if the back is in normal shutter mode not ES, then how is there a shutter button showing on the back... Hmmmm

The shutter button acts as the wake up button.

You have 4 seconds to take a picture using the copal shutter or it deactivates the sync / back.

 

[tashley]

The shutter button acts as the wake up button.

You have 4 seconds to take a picture using the copal shutter or it deactivates the sync / back.

I must be being stupid; what does the cable do? Why not just set the back to do a 4 second exposure and then use a standard mechanical release to trigger the copal shutter during that window?

 

[Boinger]

I must be being stupid; what does the cable do? Why not just set the back to do a 4 second exposure and then use a standard mechanical release to trigger the copal shutter during that window?

The cable tells synchronizes the shutter mechanism with the capture back.

I don't know for a fact but I am guessing it works something like this:

When you "wake up" the back it energizes the sensor and gets ready to receive light.

When you press the shutter it tells the sensor when to start and end the exposure.

The purpose of the wake up is to basically get the sensor ready so it is not in a constant active state.

That is my understanding at least.

Coming from an H6d when I used to use it on a tech cam it didn't have a wake up cable or any different modes. It was simply always on. This used to cause the back to heat up a lot, and I mean a lot. It was almost too hot to touch.

So I am guessing that is why phase one does the wake up approach to not keep the sensor constantly active I am sure it helps with heat.

Now if you use the 0 latency mode the sensor is always active and you don't need to do the wake up step.

Edit:

Oh and the difference between the 4 second exposure and the cable method is that with a 4 second exposure you will always have 4 seconds of data. With the mechanical cable you will not. Also you have to wait about .6 seconds before you can trigger the copal to make sure the entire sensor is active or you will have bars / parts of the sensor incorrectly exposed.

 

[tashley]

The cable tells synchronizes the shutter mechanism with the capture back.

I don't know for a fact but I am guessing it works something like this:

When you "wake up" the back it energizes the sensor and gets ready to receive light.

When you press the shutter it tells the sensor when to start and end the exposure.

The purpose of the wake up is to basically get the sensor ready so it is not in a constant active state.

That is my understanding at least.

Coming from an H6d when I used to use it on a tech cam it didn't have a wake up cable or any different modes. It was simply always on. This used to cause the back to heat up a lot, and I mean a lot. It was almost too hot to touch.

So I am guessing that is why phase one does the wake up approach to not keep the sensor constantly active I am sure it helps with heat.

Now if you use the 0 latency mode the sensor is always active and you don't need to do the wake up step.

Edit:

Oh and the difference between the 4 second exposure and the cable method is that with a 4 second exposure you will always have 4 seconds of data. With the mechanical cable you will not. Also you have to wait about .6 seconds before you can trigger the copal to make sure the entire sensor is active or you will have bars / parts of the sensor incorrectly exposed.

Honestly I'm still a little confused:it sounds as if with the new cable, unlike with the 'four second ES method,' you don't need to wait 0.6 second. In which case what is the cable doing? If touching the virtual shutter button on the back is waking it up, and the mechanical shutter release is actuating the copal to make the expose, then what is the new Phase cable actually doing? I thought it was supposed to be in effect a wakeup cable. In which case why the need to touch the virtual shutter button?

Is there an instruction sheet with it?

 

[Boinger]

Honestly I'm still a little confused:it sounds as if with the new cable, unlike with the 'four second ES method,' you don't need to wait 0.6 second. In which case what is the cable doing? If touching the virtual shutter button on the back is waking it up, and the mechanical shutter release is actuating the copal to make the expose, then what is the new Phase cable actually doing? I thought it was supposed to be in effect a wakeup cable. In which case why the need to touch the virtual shutter button?

Is there an instruction sheet with it?

So I have not shot with a capture one iq3 or anything recent. So from what I was told on an iq3 you push the wakeup button on the cable. Then trigger the shutter. The back is not always active

The shutter to back cable is necessary as it tells the back when the exposure starts and when the exposure ends.

Without the cable the back does not know when to start or end the exposure.

If you had 0 latency mode on in the back, you would not need to touch the shutter button on the back to wake the back up. You could just trigger the copal only.

 

[Christopher]

With the Iq3 there was a 0 latency mode. So far that is not the case for the IQ4

 

[LonnaTucker]

With the Iq3 there was a 0 latency mode. So far that is not the case for the IQ4

Zero latency isn’t ideal where I live in the southwest. The longer the DB is active in ready to shoot mode heat builds up and causes the captures to be noisier, even at low ISO and shorter exposures.

 

[tashley]

Here's the leaflet that comes with the cable: it seems to me that it's a bit of a kludge to get around the no zero latency issue (and I agree - that is a heat issue, especially with this back) and to allow flash sync. It sounds pretty workable though, even if it is introducing a further step into the process. I will report back when I've tried it. But yes, it is a right-angled connector, which is great.

 

[onasj]

Very helpful-- thank you! It's great to see progress being made and deployed to customers on this important issue.

I hope the firmware wizards at Phase One figure out a zero latency mode that doesn't melt the IQ4 so we have the option of not waking up the camera manually. Perhaps in this zero latency mode the processor can be throttled down to minimize heat problems until capture, then return to throttled mode until the next capture? While such an approach would make it slow to review images or other activities while in zero latency mode, I would rather have the option of a zero latency mode that I can use when capturing a series under conditions when I have limited time or attention to spare, rather than not having the option at all.

Here's the leaflet that comes with the cable: it seems to me that it's a bit of a kludge to get around the no zero latency issue (and I agree - that is a heat issue, especially with this back) and to allow flash sync. It sounds pretty workable though, even if it is introducing a further step into the process. I will report back when I've tried it. But yes, it is a right-angled connector, which is great.

 

[Boinger]

Very helpful-- thank you! It's great to see progress being made and deployed to customers on this important issue.

I hope the firmware wizards at Phase One figure out a zero latency mode that doesn't melt the IQ4 so we have the option of not waking up the camera manually. Perhaps in this zero latency mode the processor can be throttled down to minimize heat problems until capture, then return to throttled mode until the next capture? While such an approach would make it slow to review images or other activities while in zero latency mode, I would rather have the option of a zero latency mode that I can use when capturing a series under conditions when I have limited time or attention to spare, rather than not having the option at all.

Well the issue isn't really the processor. Simply making the sensor active with such a large surface area generates a lot of heat. Unfortunately there is no real way to work around this.

A true 0 latency mode would be always on all the time which will heat up the camera.

A novel option maybe to have a 0 latency mode active for say... 5 minutes a time. Lets say you needed to shoot a burst or something rapidly in sequence. Each time you press the mechanical shutter it will trigger the exposure etc. etc.

Then after 5 minutes the back deactivates. The length of time could be user determinable too.

I used to use my H6d-100c on my tech cam in the studio. I used to run it all day several hours a day and it used to be extremely hot. I did develop some problems later and the back had to be sent in for service. I have no doubts that it was heat related. My back used to be so hot that I could not hold it.

Heat is kryptonite for electronics. I much prefer the way phase one does it with having both options.

I would not use 0 latency too much due to heat.

 

[Christopher]

0 latency mode was normal for the iq180 and iq3100, before the ES came along. So the size has nothing to do with the current problem as it worked the recent years. It more looks like the new electronic have a cooling problem. Or let’s say need more Fine tuning.

 

[narikin]

I'm confused too:

When you shoot with an XF in M-up mode, FPS shutter only, the IQ4 is not in 'Zero Latency' it is simply on and waiting for a near-instantaneous 'wake up' signal from XF, and then captures the exposure from XF focal shutter. Done. No 2 steps, just 1 press of XF's shutter.

Why can't it be in the same mode with an Alpa FPS or Silex or Tech Shutter One Shot release, with instant wake-up-and-capture? I never had to put my IQ3 into zero latency for that, or even the IQ180 - Zero Latency was an emergency only option, due to high battery drain and heat issues.

So whatever shutter mode the IQ3 was in (and AFAIK, it didn't have a special name - there was just zero latency or normal latency options) why can't we have that functioning likewise in IQ4? I'd love to hear a technical explanation, if there is one.

Thanks

 

[onasj]

I agree-- ideally I would love for the IQ4 copal shutter cable solution to be one shot with no wake-up needed, just like the IQ3-100.

Indeed, I was hoping for a simple female 8-pin to male 12-pin adapter that I could put on the end of the current Alpa sync cable, but I assume IQ3/IQ4 differences extend beyond simple pin remapping.

I'm confused too:

When you shoot with an XF in M-up mode, FPS shutter only, the IQ4 is not in 'Zero Latency' it is simply on and waiting for a near-instantaneous 'wake up' signal from XF, and then captures the exposure from XF focal shutter. Done. No 2 steps, just 1 press of XF's shutter.

Why can't it be in the same mode with an Alpa FPS or Silex or Tech Shutter One Shot release, with instant wake-up-and-capture? I never had to put my IQ3 into zero latency for that, or even the IQ180 - Zero Latency was an emergency only option, due to high battery drain and heat issues.

So whatever shutter mode the IQ3 was in (and AFAIK, it didn't have a special name - there was just zero latency or normal latency options) why can't we have that functioning likewise in IQ4? I'd love to hear a technical explanation, if there is one.

Thanks

 

[tashley]

Me too. Something’s off.

 

[tcdeveau]

I agree-- ideally I would love for the IQ4 copal shutter cable solution to be one shot with no wake-up needed, just like the IQ3-100.

Indeed, I was hoping for a simple female 8-pin to male 12-pin adapter that I could put on the end of the current Alpa sync cable, but I assume IQ3/IQ4 differences extend beyond simple pin remapping.

FWIW Alpa posted on instagram today a shot of an IQ4 on a 12 Plus body with a Silex - and a sync cable from the IQ4 to the silex. I imagine IQ4 sync cables for Alpa aren't far off.

 

[Steve Hendrix]

FWIW Alpa posted on instagram today a shot of an IQ4 on a 12 Plus body with a Silex - and a sync cable from the IQ4 to the silex. I imagine IQ4 sync cables for Alpa aren't far off.

There are indeed solutions coming from Alpa, but the totally different timing/latency of the IQ4 is presenting some challenges with the FPS/Silex electronics. From my seat, I would say the cooperation could be better. I am hopeful that this gets to where we want it to be, and is a matter of time (less time would be best).


Steve Hendrix/CI

 

[tashley]

My two cents - having used the cable for a few shots this morning just to see how it all hangs together.

1) The need to press the virtual shutter button on the back's screen so as to create a sort of temporary zero latency mode is both trivial and irritating: as anyone shooting this sort of rig on a recent IQ model will know, it's an involved process because you are always fiddling with small and obstructed bits and pieces - on my HR20 with Copal, there's the little rocker that opens the diaphragm for focussing and then must be closed again before using the cable release, and there's the focus ring and the aperture slider and the shutter speed selector and the shutter cocking lever. They are all IMHO badly placed and fiddly in any event, and dealing with them all at the right time and in the right order is already enough without adding more steps on the back. I know, its what adult photographers have to do. But it's still a PITA.

2) Per the above, the small connector on the lens end of the new cable could do with NOT having a right angle: the truly stupid positioning of the sync port on the lens means that the right angled plug is always right in the way of the diaphragm rocker, which you have to move every time you want to enter LV to re-focus. I don't know if all or most lenses are the same in this respect and it isn't Phase's fault but a 'straight out' sync connector would help.

3) As has widely been discussed the back has no auto gain at the moment. Given that it cannot know what shutter speed you have set on the lens, it therefore decides what level of brightness to show the live view preview according to what is set on the back - just as if you were using Electronic Shutter. This is logic of a kind but I does have an advantage which is that if you've pulled in the clipping tool from the right while you are in LV, then it's quick and easy to rotate the aperture ring until clipping just disappears. Then you put the aperture back to what you want, notice how many stops you've moved it and change the exposure on the shutter by the same number of stops 'et voila!' you have perfect exposure. Except you don't because the lens only has full stop shutter speed increments. Not the back's fault. And of course you ideally don't want to be adjusting exposure with aperture if you are doing LCCs because then you have to shoot a new LCC - quite aside from changing whatever optimal POF and DOF you have chosen. But it's useful anyway.

4) The cable is shorter than the old one and for my rig that works very well. I thread the shutter release cable through the Phase cable and then pull it through one of the curls about two thirds the way along the phase cable, and it acts nicely as a sort of unofficial cable control system.

Overall:

ES is a damned sight easier, quicker and more flexible and would seem to be a better choice in most circumstances other than when:

1) you need flash sync (though there are workarounds to that as we've seen);
2) you have objects of a size and shape and moving with a direction and speed that will cause problems with the ES. But don't forget that the max shutter speed on the Copal (at least on mine) is 1/500th so the window that this use case fits is quite small;
3) maybe in a warm climate there might be a tiny advantage to image quality through having the back not in heat-generating LV all the time as you do with ES?

Overall I am grateful that a well-designed and functioning cable has been delivered in reasonably good time, I will certainly make sure that I have it with me, but I don't expect to use in too often.

If this isn't s spectacularly bad choice of phrase, 'roll on the global shutter'.....

 

[onasj]

Very helpful; thank you.

I agree that one of the priorities of Phase One (and tech cam companies) should be minimizing the number of steps needed to capture an image. I've lived through most of the steps you listed below thousands of times and it's both slow and somewhat error-prone. Adding a new step on the IQ4 of having to press the virtual shutter button on the back before Copal shutter release means the process of making a tech camera Copal shutter capture on the IQ4 now looks like this:

- Set anticipated aperture
- Adjust live view ISO so I can see the image properly (with a reasonable brightness and frame rate)
- Open the Copal shutter's diaphragm if closed, initiate live view, and frame the composition in live view
- Focus in live view with focus masking (and adjust aperture as needed)
- Close the Copal shutter's diaphragm using the slider
- [NEW] Press the virtual shutter button to wake up the camera
- Cock the Copal shutter
- Release the Copal shutter

That's a lot of fiddling to get one capture. And the second capture, if it is involves a changed subject, still requires steps 3-8, if not 1-8.

Firmware updates should be able to eliminate step 2 by bringing auto ISO to live view, but I'm hoping that a combination of firmware engineering and perhaps cable engineering will enable step 6 (pressing the virtual shutter button) to also be eliminated. Removing each step will make a significant difference in the usability of the tech cam/IQ4 combination.

My two cents - having used the cable for a few shots this morning just to see how it all hangs together.

1) The need to press the virtual shutter button on the back's screen so as to create a sort of temporary zero latency mode is both trivial and irritating: as anyone shooting this sort of rig on a recent IQ model will know, it's an involved process because you are always fiddling with small and obstructed bits and pieces - on my HR20 with Copal, there's the little rocker that opens the diaphragm for focussing and then must be closed again before using the cable release, and there's the focus ring and the aperture slider and the shutter speed selector and the shutter cocking lever. They are all IMHO badly placed and fiddly in any event, and dealing with them all at the right time and in the right order is already enough without adding more steps on the back. I know, its what adult photographers have to do. But it's still a PITA.

2) Per the above, the small connector on the lens end of the new cable could do with NOT having a right angle: the truly stupid positioning of the sync port on the lens means that the right angled plug is always right in the way of the diaphragm rocker, which you have to move every time you want to enter LV to re-focus. I don't know if all or most lenses are the same in this respect and it isn't Phase's fault but a 'straight out' sync connector would help.

3) As has widely been discussed the back has no auto gain at the moment. Given that it cannot know what shutter speed you have set on the lens, it therefore decides what level of brightness to show the live view preview according to what is set on the back - just as if you were using Electronic Shutter. This is logic of a kind but I does have an advantage which is that if you've pulled in the clipping tool from the right while you are in LV, then it's quick and easy to rotate the aperture ring until clipping just disappears. Then you put the aperture back to what you want, notice how many stops you've moved it and change the exposure on the shutter by the same number of stops 'et voila!' you have perfect exposure. Except you don't because the lens only has full stop shutter speed increments. Not the back's fault. And of course you ideally don't want to be adjusting exposure with aperture if you are doing LCCs because then you have to shoot a new LCC - quite aside from changing whatever optimal POF and DOF you have chosen. But it's useful anyway.

4) the cable is shorter than the old one and for my rig that works very well. I thread the shutter release cable through the Phase cable and then pull it through one of the curls about two thirds the way along the phase cable, and it acts nicely as a sort of unofficial cable control system.

Overall:

ES is a damned sight easier, quicker and more flexible and would seem to be a better choice in most circumstances other than when:

1) you need flash sync (though there are workarounds to that as we've seen)
2) you have objects of a size and shape and moving with a direction and speed that will cause problems with the ES. But don't forget that the max shutter speed on the Copal (at least on mine) is 1/500th so the window that this use case fits is quite small.
3) maybe in a warm climate there might be a tiny advantage to image quality through having the back not in LV all the time as you do with ES?

Overall I am grateful that a well-designed and functioning cable has been delivered in reasonably good time, I will certainly make sure that I have it with me, but I don't expect to use in too often.

If this isn't s spectacularly bad choice of phrase, 'roll on the global shutter'.....