Techical Camera help please

[Greg Haag]

I was hoping to get some insight regarding technical cameras. I shoot primarily architectural and landscape, currently with Hasselblad H6D-100c. Especially as it relates to architectural work, I think a technical camera may be a better solution. I need something that is compatible with my Hasselblad back, and was wondering about ALPA 12 MAX (but open to anything compatible). Trying to sort thru what I need has been intimidating, any insights would be greatly appreciated. Also, could anyone recommend someone you trust that deals in technical cameras.
Thanks in advance,
Greg

 

[Boinger]

I was hoping to get some insight regarding technical cameras. I shoot primarily architectural and landscape, currently with Hasselblad H6D-100c. Especially as it relates to architectural work, I think a technical camera may be a better solution. I need something that is compatible with my Hasselblad back, and was wondering about ALPA 12 MAX (but open to anything compatible). Trying to sort thru what I need has been intimidating, any insights would be greatly appreciated. Also, could anyone recommend someone you trust that deals in technical cameras.
Thanks in advance,
Greg

I have a cambo actus. I just recently switched to the iq4150 but I had an h6d100c before.

The live view focusing is easy so it works very well with the actus.

I don't know what the pricing is for the alpa, but I do gather it is quite expensive when you consider camera + lenses with their mounts etc.

The cambo actus conversely has a decent range of movements and is relatively cheap with lenses etc.

I don't know what your budget is so just my two cents.

 

[Greg Haag]

I have a cambo actus. I just recently switched to the iq4150 but I had an h6d100c before.

The live view focusing is easy so it works very well with the actus.

I don't know what the pricing is for the alpa, but I do gather it is quite expensive when you consider camera + lenses with their mounts etc.

The cambo actus conversely has a decent range of movements and is relatively cheap with lenses etc.

I don't know what your budget is so just my two cents.

Thank you very much for your feedback, I will take a look at the Cambo.

 

[dchew]

The Alpa Max is a wonderful tool for landscape / architecture.

I agree with Boinger that it will be the more (if not most) expensive route to go, and the Actus would be at least, if not more, versatile. Movement comparison Max vs Actus DB:

Tilt:
Max +- 5mm (+- 10mm with longer lenses and (2) TS adapters)
Actus + 9mm, -10mm

Swing:
Max +- 5mm (10mm with longer lenses and (2) TS adapters)
Actus +- 15mm

Lens rise (or back fall):
Max +25mm, - 18mm
Actus +15mm, - 12mm

Shift:
Max +- 18mm
Actus +-20mm

In general, the Actus has a wider range of movements and combinations. The one area where the Max is better is the 25mm of lens rise, which might be a factor for architecture. However, a 25mm rise requires a 104/120mm image circle (portrait/landscape), which will require careful lens selections.

I think we all would suggest trying and testing the two basic system approaches, bellows/lens boards vs helical/proprietary lens mounts, to see which you prefer. First narrow down that sub-category, then find the Alpa, Arca, Cambo or Linhof that fits your needs.

Dave

 

[Greg Haag]

The Alpa Max is a wonderful tool for landscape / architecture.

I agree with Boinger that it will be the more (if not most) expensive route to go, and the Actus would be at least, if not more versatile. Movement comparison Max vs Actus DB:

Tilt:
Max +- 5mm (+- 10mm with longer lenses and (2) TS adapters)
Actus + 9mm, -10mm

Swing:
Max +- 5mm (10mm with longer lenses and (2) TS adapters)
Actus +- 15mm

Lens rise (or back fall):
Max +25mm, - 18mm
Actus +15mm, - 12mm

Shift:
Max +- 18mm
Actus +-20mm

In general, the Actus has a wider range of movements and combinations. The one area where the Max is better is the 25mm of lens rise, which might be a factor for architecture. However, a 24mm rise requires a 104/120mm image circle (portrait/landscape), which will require careful lens selections.

I think we all would suggest trying and testing the two basic system approaches, bellows/lens boards vs helical/proprietary lens mounts, to see which you prefer. First narrow down that sub-category, then find the Alpa, Arca, Cambo or Linhof that fits your needs.

Dave

Dave,
Thank you so much for the detailed response! I have felt overwhelmed in trying to get a good understanding of what my options are. I have not been pleased with my Hasselblad HTS as a solution and thus currently prefer to try to address corrections in post vs using the HTS. I think in a new system, ease of use, the ability to accurately focus and versatility of the system would be most important to me. Honestly, I do not know enough, all of these systems may be very similar in these areas. Any clarity you can provide would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Greg

 

[Boinger]

The Alpa Max is a wonderful tool for landscape / architecture.

I agree with Boinger that it will be the more (if not most) expensive route to go, and the Actus would be at least, if not more, versatile. Movement comparison Max vs Actus DB:

Tilt:
Max +- 5mm (+- 10mm with longer lenses and (2) TS adapters)
Actus + 9mm, -10mm

Swing:
Max +- 5mm (10mm with longer lenses and (2) TS adapters)
Actus +- 15mm

Lens rise (or back fall):
Max +25mm, - 18mm
Actus +15mm, - 12mm

Shift:
Max +- 18mm
Actus +-20mm

In general, the Actus has a wider range of movements and combinations. The one area where the Max is better is the 25mm of lens rise, which might be a factor for architecture. However, a 25mm rise requires a 104/120mm image circle (portrait/landscape), which will require careful lens selections.

I think we all would suggest trying and testing the two basic system approaches, bellows/lens boards vs helical/proprietary lens mounts, to see which you prefer. First narrow down that sub-category, then find the Alpa, Arca, Cambo or Linhof that fits your needs.

Dave

Also to add to this post. The cambo actus keeps improving and fits onto the same modular camera.

For example to expand the movement range you can add the db adapter with tilt you get -+6 additional back tilt.

You can also add the base tilt kit which adds +- 15 of base tilt to both standards. You can use these to do the drop bed or rise technique to get additional rise and fall.

Another option that a lot of people on this forum use is the Linhof Techno.

Anders Torger says that it is more rigid than the actus. It also maintains the versatility of not having to deal with a proprietary mount.

One additional point I will say is that mounting lenses to boards is very easy and I do it myself with a simple lens wrench.

 

[dchew]

Dave,
Any clarity you can provide would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Greg

The two primary categories are:
Helical Systems:
The lens uses a brand-specific helical mount. Focus is accomplished by rotating the helical. These are nicknamed “pancake” cameras because the camera itself is very thin. Examples: Alpa 12 Plus, Arca-Swiss Rm3di, Cambo WRS 1600

Advantages:

• If carrying only a few lenses, these are the smallest, most compact 54x40 MF cameras. Once you get to 3-5 lenses, the dedicated helical mounts take up space and the compact advantage evaporates.
• They are very precise. This may or may not make a difference, depending on the photography you do.
• Easier to focus with a back that does not have live view.
• Set up is a bit faster, but none of these things are fast...

Disadvantages:

• Expensive, especially when you build a large garage of lenses.
• They are less versatile in their range of movements.
• The mounts on longer lenses take up a lot of space.

Bellows / Rail Systems:
The lens mounts on a traditional lens board to a front standard and bellows. Focus is accomplished by moving the mounted lens (or sensor) back and forth on a rail or slide. These cameras are essentially small but very precise view cameras. Examples: Arca-Swiss Universalis, Cambo Actus, Linhof Techno.

Advantages:

• Less expensive; you can mount your own lenses to lens boards yourself.
• Easier to find used lenses; you don't care what the mount is and you are not captive to the brand's system.
• More versatile; generally a wider range, combination and selection of movements.
• Long (i.e. telephoto) lenses are small and light because there are no dedicated mounts.

Disadvantages:

• Bellows focus is less "precise." However, live view makes this much less of an issue.
• Bellows and wind do not go well together.
• Take a bit longer to set up; more parts to be assembled/disassembled.
• If carrying only a lens or two, the system is not as compact.

Dave

 

[Greg Haag]

The two primary categories are:
Helical Systems:
The lens uses a brand-specific helical mount. Focus is accomplished by rotating the helical. These are nicknamed “pancake” cameras because the camera itself is very thin. Examples: Alpa 12 Plus, Arca-Swiss Rm3di, Cambo WRS 1600

Advantages:

• If carrying only a few lenses, these are the smallest, most compact 54x40 MF cameras. Once you get to 3-5 lenses, the dedicated helical mounts take up space and the compact advantage evaporates.
• They are very precise. This may or may not make a difference, depending on the photography you do.
• Easier to focus with a back that does not have live view.
• Set up is a bit faster, but none of these things are fast...

Disadvantages:

• Expensive, especially when you build a large garage of lenses.
• They are less versatile in their range of movements.
• The mounts on longer lenses take up a lot of space.

Bellows / Rail Systems
The lens mounts on a traditional lens board to a front standard and bellows. Focus is accomplished by moving the mounted lens (or sensor) back and forth on a rail or slide. These cameras are essentially small but very precise view cameras. Examples: Arca-Swiss Universalis, Cambo Actus, Linhof Techno.

Advantages:

• Less expensive; you can mount your own lenses to lens boards yourself.
• Easier to find used lenses; you don't care what the mount is and you are not captive to the brand's system.
• More versatile; generally a wider range, combination and selection of movements.
• Long (i.e. telephoto) lenses are small and light because there are no dedicated mounts.

Disadvantages:

• Bellows focus is less "precise." However, live view makes this much less of an issue.
• Bellows and wind do not go well together.
• Take a bit longer to set up; more parts to be assembled/disassembled.
• If carrying only a lens or two, the system is not as compact.

Dave

Dave,
This is an extremely helpful explanation! I do have live view on my back. Would you consider the finished product of both to be very similar in terms of quality of the image?
Thanks,
Greg

 

[dchew]

Dave,
Would you consider the finished product of both to be very similar in terms of quality of the image?
Thanks,
Greg

Yes, I would say indistinguishable given the situation is within the window of capability of each system.

Dave

 

[Boinger]

Dave,
This is an extremely helpful explanation! I do have live view on my back. Would you consider the finished product of both to be very similar in terms of quality of the image?
Thanks,
Greg

The image quality is dictated by the lens and not necessarily the camera.

The assumptions are of course that all the camera's can maintain parallelism and are rigid enough to not have skews.

The pancake camera's are more rigid than the view camera types.

But and it is a big but, what kind of photography you do will dictate if you need that rigidity?

For me in practical terms I don't really see the benefit in pancake cameras as most of my tech cam shooting is always to have max dof. So I will use a small aperture like f8-f11 and the dof will generally mask any imprecision on a view camera.

If you are shooting wide open flat objects then the pancake camera will have an advantage due to the rigidity of the system as a whole.

But I think the precision requirements of these DB are greatly exaggerated. The view camera's designed for digital are pretty precise and do a very adequate job for the application.

Here is a very detailed review of the techno, helped me a lot to make my decision.

https://www.ludd.ltu.se/~torger/photography/linhof-techno-review.html

I was going to go for a techno, but I then found an actus DB used for $1000 and I couldn't really pass that up.

 

[Wayne Fox]

I have both the Arca Swiss Rm3di and the Cambo Actus DB. I currently have 7 lenses, and between lens tubes and back extenders for the Arca it became too much to fit in a bag. Tilting on it is functional, but difficult because the tilt mechanism really doesn’t have a very fine control.

I prefer the Cambo now, because it gives me a few more lens options and is lighter without all of those tubes on the lenses and is far more versatile with tilt, shifts, swings etc. I’ve added the extended rail and have both the short and long bellows, so no issues with everything from a 28mm to a 180mm lens. The Arca as well has all the “tubes” etc will soon be up for sale.

The two main issues for the Cambo are what Dave mentioned, longer to set it up, and “wind”. I”ll expand that last one a little to include any inclement weather or shooting condition such as rain, ocean with heavy surf, waterfall with mist in the air, etc. Wind is the most serious because the camera isn’t as stable. sometimes you can shield the camera with your body and help. But inclement weather and you are putting this thing together with every delicate surface exposed for some time, mist and sand can get into places that endanger the expensive sensor. The Arca or Alpa design is a little better at this, and you can even keep your back and a lens mounted to the camera so you can just pull it out and shoot.

For me when weather or the situation is a little risky I opt for the XF as it is far better weather sealed than any tech camera.

 

[Boinger]

I will second what wayne said. In risky weather I opt for the my X1d or now maybe GFX.

Tech cam's are a bit too open for any use in risky weather.

 

[Greg Haag]

I have both the Arca Swiss Rm3di and the Cambo Actus DB. I currently have 7 lenses, and between lens tubes and back extenders for the Arca it became too much to fit in a bag. Tilting on it is functional, but difficult because the tilt mechanism really doesn’t have a very fine control.

I prefer the Cambo now, because it gives me a few more lens options and is lighter without all of those tubes on the lenses and is far more versatile with tilt, shifts, swings etc. I’ve added the extended rail and have both the short and long bellows, so no issues with everything from a 28mm to a 180mm lens. The Arca as well has all the “tubes” etc will soon be up for sale.

The two main issues for the Cambo are what Dave mentioned, longer to set it up, and “wind”. I”ll expand that last one a little to include any inclement weather or shooting condition such as rain, ocean with heavy surf, waterfall with mist in the air, etc. Wind is the most serious because the camera isn’t as stable. sometimes you can shield the camera with your body and help. But inclement weather and you are putting this thing together with every delicate surface exposed for some time, mist and sand can get into places that endanger the expensive sensor. The Arca or Alpa design is a little better at this, and you can even keep your back and a lens mounted to the camera so you can just pull it out and shoot.

For me when weather or the situation is a little risky I opt for the XF as it is far better weather sealed than any tech camera.

Thanks for you insight Wayne! I watched a video this morning on the Cambo Actus and loved the way it worked, if I were buying today, it would be my choice. If I were going to start with the Combo Actus DB and one lens, which lens would you pick?

 

[BillKnight]

I have both the Arca Swiss Rm3di and the Cambo Actus DB. I currently have 7 lenses, and between lens tubes and back extenders for the Arca it became too much to fit in a bag. Tilting on it is functional, but difficult because the tilt mechanism really doesn’t have a very fine control.

I prefer the Cambo now, because it gives me a few more lens options and is lighter without all of those tubes on the lenses and is far more versatile with tilt, shifts, swings etc. I’ve added the extended rail and have both the short and long bellows, so no issues with everything from a 28mm to a 180mm lens. The Arca as well has all the “tubes” etc will soon be up for sale.

The two main issues for the Cambo are what Dave mentioned, longer to set it up, and “wind”. I”ll expand that last one a little to include any inclement weather or shooting condition such as rain, ocean with heavy surf, waterfall with mist in the air, etc. Wind is the most serious because the camera isn’t as stable. sometimes you can shield the camera with your body and help. But inclement weather and you are putting this thing together with every delicate surface exposed for some time, mist and sand can get into places that endanger the expensive sensor. The Arca or Alpa design is a little better at this, and you can even keep your back and a lens mounted to the camera so you can just pull it out and shoot.

For me when weather or the situation is a little risky I opt for the XF as it is far better weather sealed than any tech camera.

Hi, what is the length of rail required for a 180mm lens? 300mm?

And have you, or has anyone in this forum been tempted to try a DB on something like the Ultima with full view camera movements, and in particular perspective control, for captures below or above what rise and fall alone allow, if that's not too far off topic? Cambo makes a conversion to Actus kit for it. Yeah it's humongous, and you'd never want to carry it far, but it does offer perspective control. And the Cambo Actus rear standard tilt kit looks like an aide to enhanced rise and fall movements, but I don't get the sense it is designed to be useful for perspective control.

Thanks, Bill

 

[Boinger]

Hi, what is the length of rail required for a 180mm lens? 300mm?

And have you, or has anyone in this forum been tempted to try a DB on something like the Ultima with full view camera movements, and in particular perspective control, for captures below or above what rise and fall alone allow, if that's not too far off topic? Cambo makes a conversion to Actus kit for it. Yeah it's humongous, and you'd never want to carry it far, but it does offer perspective control. And the Cambo Actus rear standard tilt kit looks like an aide to enhanced rise and fall movements, but I don't get the sense it is designed to be useful for perspective control.

Thanks, Bill

Didn't see this post earlier, but I actually use a cambo ultima 23d in my studio and an actus db in the field.

The ultima 23d has very versatile full movements in the studio but I wouldn't dare take it in the field.
I didn't purchase the upgrade kit as you basicly have to change bellows / front and rear standard mounts. It is quite costly, and all basicly you need if you are trying to mount your actus db lens is a way to mount the lens into a cambo ultima 23d lens board

I outlined what I did in this thread:

https://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium...b-lens-plate.html?highlight=poor+man's+ultima