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A Lighter Alternative?

tsjanik

Well-known member
I’m seeking some advice based on the collective experience and wisdom of the members of this forum. I am very happy with my 645Z and my 645D before that and my 645N and 67II before that. However, nowadays I am less inclined to hike or travel with heavy systems. So I am considering a lighter system that will be comparable to the quality of a 645Z. GFX 50R is an obvious choice and at least at the wide end the lenses are lighter and more compact; interestingly, the Pentax lenses tend to be lighter at the long end and an adapter is available that would allow tilt and shift with Pentax lenses. I’m not convinced a few less pounds will be that significant in a pack, but hand weight of camera and lens is important too. Carrying a 645Z with the 28-45mm is like carrying a brick (but with a good grip:) ). Another option is a Sony A7r III or Nikon Z7, but will I always end up carrying, or wishing I was carrying, the 645Z? Any thoughts or experiences welcomed. Thanks,
Tom
 
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dave.gt

Well-known member
I’m seeking some advice based on the collective experience and wisdom of the members of this forum. I am very happy with my 645Z and my 645D before that and my 645N and 67II before that. However, nowadays I am less inclined to hike or travel with heavy systems. So I am considering a lighter system that will be comparable to the quality of a 645Z. GFX 50R is an obvious choice and at least at the wide end the lenses are lighter and more compact; interestingly, the Pentax lenses tend to be lighter at the long end and an adapter is available that would allow tilt and shift with Pentax lenses. I’m not convinced a few less pounds will that significant in a pack, but hand weight of camera and lens is important too. Carrying a 645Z with the 28-45mm is like carrying a brick (but with a good grip:) ). Another option is a Sony A7r III or Nikon Z7, but will I always end up carrying, or wishing I was carrying, the 645Z? Any thoughts or experiences welcomed. Thanks,
Tom
Hi, Tom,

Unfortunately there is no one who can alter your course. You already have it set in your mind.:):):)

Your equipment is very good and you have a bond with it because your images prove it. Why not keep it? Then buy a second kit if you have to go "Light"?

Personally, this trend to go light/smaller is strange when packs get loaded up with battery grips, more gear and more accessories. It is a marketing thing that I really have no problem with yet I don't buy it. These days I long for a D5 and huge telephoto lenses. (Certainly a 200mm f2 lens)...

Carrying a loaded backpack has become a wonderful daily exercise routine for me. I look forward to the 30-40# pack because I feel much better than I did this time last year. Going lighter is not even a thought,

If you really need to go light, then base your decision on the files of the equipment you choose. But, the old gear still gives great images with ease in your hands, so, try to keep it. If that is not possible, then by all means buy with confidence, shoot lots and share here!!!:thumbup:
 

MGrayson

Subscriber and Workshop Member
Tom,

I made a spreadsheet with the weights of a number of bodies and lenses from different manufacturers. My baseline was the Leica S. The Phase and big Hassy were out of the question, as they were even heavier. In many combinations of focal lengths, the X1D system came out at 50% and the Fuji at 75% of the Leica S weights. Of course, the lens options are different, but the ratios were fairly consistent. An X1D and two lenses I hardly notice. Three lenses and I can feel it, but it's lighter than the S and one lens.

I prefer everything about the Leica S except its weight, but a system you don't carry with you takes no pictures.

Matt
 

D&A

Well-known member
I tend to agree with much of what Dave (GT) has expressed. Of course opinions will wildly vary as its such a personal decision. As you know, I too use the 645Z system and often thought about going lighter. Of course I am a big fan of the optical viewfinder and although things have dramatically improved with EVF's, I still feel far more comfortable with a OVF. Of course one adapts over time.

I shot with the 50R for a little while (on loan) and it's a lovely body. I tried out the 50S and except for the shallow grip on the 50R, I preferred the 50R to the 50S, simply because I am also a 35mm rangefinder shooter, so form factor and layout was more to my liking. When I want to go light, I use my leica M digitals and although not 50MP and do wish it was higher than the 18-24MP, it satisfies the need, although at times with certain shots I wished I had the 645Z with me instead.

I'm not sure how much you really gain by going with Fuji if you are packing a whole system to take along for an outing although I do agree, that in hand, the 50R even with its midrange 32-64mm zoom, feels considerably lighter in hand while walking vs. the 645Z with 45-85mm. That's the main situation where I feel the Fuji system has an advantage.

Although I don't shoot with the Sony system, with it's high resolution and superb performance that approaches medium format and some very fine lenses to choose from that are certainly lighter in weight than Pentax's, that might be a viable choice when you want to leave the 645Z home and have a walkaround that doesn't give up a whole lot to the 645Z, especially if we are talking about resolution and quality of files.

Although it may be a pipe dream and an executive of Ricoh recently expressed that he still believes many who shoot Pentax prefer an OVF in their medium format, I can't believe that at some point Pentax will enter the mirrorless medium format market with a body that accepts a Pentax designed adapter in order to use legacy lenses. This is especially slow as Pentax is slow to introduce new lenses. If this does materialize, it may be the ideal solution. In the meantime a system like the Sony could be an interesting stop gap measure, unless you commit to a whole new medium format system. Of course you are well aware of the Hassy X1D. It amazing in so many ways but has some deficiencies (my own personal preferences) I did come across, but loved it nerveless. Again this is all so subjective. Keep us posted with your thoughts and developments.

Dave (D&A)
 
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drunkenspyder

Well-known member
I’m seeking some advice based on the collective experience and wisdom of the members of this forum. I am very happy with my 645Z and my 645D before that and my 645N and 67II before that. However, nowadays I am less inclined to hike or travel with heavy systems. So I am considering a lighter system that will be comparable to the quality of a 645Z. GFX 50R is an obvious choice and at least at the wide end the lenses are lighter and more compact; interestingly, the Pentax lenses tend to be lighter at the long end and an adapter is available that would allow tilt and shift with Pentax lenses. I’m not convinced a few less pounds will be that significant in a pack, but hand weight of camera and lens is important too. Carrying a 645Z with the 28-45mm is like carrying a brick (but with a good grip:) ). Another option is a Sony A7r III or Nikon Z7, but will I always end up carrying, or wishing I was carrying, the 645Z? Any thoughts or experiences welcomed. Thanks,
Tom
I am sitting on some of this same fence Tom. I love my XF system, but as a heavy body+back+monstrous lenses get stuffed into a pack, it can become very unwieldy. Lately, I have been trying to force myself to pick a lens and use it exclusively during an outing. That makes the XF+IQ45+single lens fairly comfortable. But I also look at the cabinet somewhat forlornly when I leave the house, as I know I am forcing compromises. Probably why my pick has increasingly been the S-K 40-80 zoom. It is an impressive, and versatile, lens.

FWIW, my philosophy—even when I was much younger and carried 50+-pound packs—is that a few less pounds always matter. Sometimes it's for different reasons, e.g., on a multi-day trip. including tent, sleeping bag, etc., each ounce matters. But even on a short trip, one pound of photo gear is one pound of something else one does not carry, e.g., a bottle of wine for a picnic lunch. But they still matter.

So, I am patiently, or not so much, waiting to see what Hassy is going to do. I have a sling-pack that goes over one shoulder, that easily holds the X1D and three lenses, batteries, some filters, etc. So far, I have been a renter only of the X1D. But if the MkII preserves the form factor, I am likely going to be a buyer. For some trips/ventures, that combo of IQ and low weight is very compelling. I love the IQ4, but even with the small Cambo and carefully chosen tech lenses, the weight adds up quickly, sometimes to the point where it becomes an issue.

When I travel, this calculus takes on other dimensions. I am trying out a Leica Q2 to see what its like to travel very compactly but with decent IQ. My Z7 is a nice rig, and with the 24-70, 14-30, and maybe a 100-400, it makes a very complete system. But even as nice as its IQ is, it doesn't have the same appeal as either the Phase or Hassy sensors. As I said, I am hoping Hassy does not disappoint.
 

darr

Well-known member
Hi Tom,
Since I am a petite 5'2" woman (and now age 60), weight and size ALWAYS matters to me. The lightest MF system I have ever owned and use is an ALPA TC with SK lenses. I recently bought an electric bike and now I am customizing a cargo box for the rear rack to carry my gear. Just starting back to biking, but I love it and even more with pedal assist (PAS). First time on bike with PAS at lowest setting, I did nine miles. It has certainly opened up more photographic opportunities for me. I have held onto my TC and SK lenses because I know it does not get any less weight than this.

:OT:Hope you are enjoying your camper. I bought a new Ford Transit Connect last year and had it professionally converted to my specs. A Thule bike rack on the back and the electric bike (Rad Mini) finds me on travel these days. Seriously look at a TC if weight is the biggest issue.

Kind regards,
Darr
 

Shashin

Well-known member
Perhaps a donkey?

Tom, that is a tough one. My solution has been to go with two systems, my Pentax MFD and a Fuji APS-C. How I enjoy a camera is important for me. I like optical finders (I use a Fuji X Pro2). But I also want a certain quality. I made 40" prints from the Fuji just to make sure I could make large prints I would be satisfied with.

I found with the Pentax it is a combination of what I carry and how I carry it. I usually only have three lenses: 35mm, 55mm, and 120mm. I have a very comfortable backpack and I carry the camera mounted on the tripod in the field while I am working. My tripod is also chosen for its weight. I usually just rest it against my shoulder as I walk. I do this in the country and city.

The Fuji system complements it. That is much more portable and it is a lot freer to use. It is certainly not competing with the image quality of the Pentax, but I can use this in a way I can't use the Pentax. Naturally, I can slow down and use it with a tripod. While I went for the Fuji for the rangefinder camera type, I also found a huge weight and size benefit with the optics. I did spec out Sony cameras when I was looking and found while the body was similar in size and weight, the lenses were significantly bigger and heavier. (The format does not bother me so much as having too much DoF does not seem to be the problem I mostly have.)

I have been eyeing the GFX 50R with the 32-64mm zoom. It is certainly tempting. The EVF does not blow my hair back. Despite the size and weight, I get a great deal of satisfaction using the Pentax.

As others have pointed out, this is a really personal decision. I am shallow, so the satisfaction the gear gives me (as well as if looks good in a mirror ;) ) matters.
 

tsjanik

Well-known member
Hi, Tom,

Unfortunately there is no one who can alter your course. You already have it set in your mind.:):):)…..
LOL, you may be right about always wishing I had the “big” camera. Thank you all for your comments, I note that no one recommends giving up the MF completely for a smaller system, of course this is the MF forum :).
Tom,

…… but a system you don't carry with you takes no pictures.

Matt
Indeed, I think the 28-45mm is the major issue for me. It’s such a well performing lens I hate to leave it behind, but hiking with it renders the camera unwieldly.

Dave, I too prefer the optical finder. I had a chance to handle a 50S and did not care for the finder, I suspect I could become accustomed, but not an immediate liking.

d-s, I found your comments on the Z7 noteworthy. I thought it might remove any preference for MF, but apparently not.

Darr, Nice to hear from you, I haven’t seen a post of yours for some time. Ironically I was thinking just yesterday about the dearth of female posters on these forums. The camper is great but we may convert to a camper van when we replace the truck camper. Who did your conversion, a firm like Sportsmobile? The bike sounds great. Wise to put the camera on the back rack. I once tried to carry a Pentax LX and lenses in a handlebar pack on my road bike. The weight caused pretty nasty handling problems.

Will, I have a “light” kit of the 35mm A, 75mm FA and 150mm A. It works, but I regret leaving the 28-45mm behind and I hate carrying it too. The 50S and the 32-45mm is very appealing and could certainly replace the 28-45mm.
Perhaps a donkey?

…………I did spec out Sony cameras when I was looking and found while the body was similar in size and weight, the lenses were significantly bigger and heavier.
Donkey would be good. I am surprised and disappointed at the size of lenses available for the compact Sony bodies, rather defeats the size advantage.
Best to all,
Tom
 

drunkenspyder

Well-known member
As others have pointed out, this is a really personal decision. I am shallow, so the satisfaction the gear gives me (as well as if looks good in a mirror ;) ) matters.
Heh, I know you’re being light-hearted, Will, but I don’t think that makes you shallow. I think a craftsman should appreciate his or her tools. Reid Reviews has what I thought was a very good essay on the importance of a photographer’s equipment (free access). I like its conclusion:
But it's not true that cameras and lenses do not matter. There is no best camera and no best lens, globally, but there may well be a combination of camera and lens that best suits a specific photographer for a specific set of work. It might be a combination that costs forty dollars or forty-thousand but whatever it is, it can play an important role in the creation and look of a given photographers' work.
How a camera feels in my hands, the elegance (or not) of its design, the way it looks and behaves and responds, all these things matter. And if it all feels right, it even helps to lighten the load on my back.
 

D&A

Well-known member
Tom, as a side note with regards to cycling with a camera....I am an avid cyclist (more road bike these days vs than off road mountain biking). There were some well designed bags designed specifically for cameras and attached to the rear rack as you suggested, but I don't favor that location, especially if the bike goes over rough patches, potholes or trail riding. I personally feel that's ultimately and over time its too jarring on the equipment, unless it simply contains a relatively compact fixed lens P&S. Preferably a well designed backpack (warn on the back of course) is better in my opinion and there are many (small and medium sized) that are specifically designed to hug the rider or skier in comfort, so there is little movement when the body moves and this in itself, reduces the feel of the weight of a camera body and some lenses. Also allows some room (even the small versions) of rain gear and/or supplementary nourishment etc. Again like most everything else, it comes down to personal preference how one prefers to transport their equipment while engaged in an active sport. Of course as an alternative to that donkey, one can always hire a driver in a support vehicle that follows you every step of the way with your gear. :grin:

Dave (D&A)
 

Shashin

Well-known member
Tom, why not rent a Fuji and work with it a bit to see if it is something you might enjoy. I have a love-hate relationship with cameras. Each time I get a new one (which is not often), I need to work with it for a little while in order understand and appreciate it. I am always a little hesitant to buy a new one as I know if I do not gel with it, it does not get used. But when I do gel with a camera, it is just a pleasure to work with, or maybe it just gets out of the way so I can work. As you know, I am still with my 645D. While I am sure the Z is technically better, I just did not feel anything lacking from the work I was getting from the D. (No one as every commented on my images and said, nice picture, pity about the noise.)

Either that, have you wife hide the 28-45mm in your house somewhere...
 

onasj

Active member
If you want quality approaching MF in a much smaller package, I strongly recommend the a7riii. I've done side-by-side comparisons with the IQ4 (see my earlier posts) and the a7riii fares very well at a tiny fraction of the weight (and price).

As for a7riii lenses:

Amazing (but larger, though still smaller compared with most MF glass) lens outfit:
- 24/1.4 GM (much bigger, zoom-ier alternative: 16-35/2.8 GM)
- 50/1.4
- 85/1.4 GM

Very good, very compact lens outfit:
- 28/2
- 55/1.8
- 85/1.8

I can't imagine you would be disappointed by the above given your use description. The whole outfit fits into a small shoebox (very good lens set) or into a messenger bag (amazing lens set).
 
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Sarnian

Member
I had a love/hate relationship with my 28-45mm. In the end I compromised with a good copy of the much-overlooked 33-55mm. If you take a bit of time to micro adjust it it really isn't that bad. It's still not a 28-45mm - or even a 45-85mm - but it's a lightweight zoom whose size and weight means that you'll more likely take it out. Oh, and it's also 5 times cheaper than a used 28-45mm!
 

D&A

Well-known member
Tom, why not rent a Fuji and work with it a bit to see if it is something you might enjoy. I have a love-hate relationship with cameras. Each time I get a new one (which is not often), I need to work with it for a little while in order understand and appreciate it. I am always a little hesitant to buy a new one as I know if I do not gel with it, it does not get used. But when I do gel with a camera, it is just a pleasure to work with, or maybe it just gets out of the way so I can work. As you know, I am still with my 645D. While I am sure the Z is technically better, I just did not feel anything lacking from the work I was getting from the D. (No one as every commented on my images and said, nice picture, pity about the noise.)

Either that, have you wife hide the 28-45mm in your house somewhere...
You've posted some really lovely images but unfortunately most were ruined by all that noise coming from your 645D :ROTFL:

Actually I love the output from the CCD based 645D and in some shooting/lighting circumstances actually prefer it to the CMOS based 645Z. Its the same for me with the CCD based M9 vs CMOS based M240. Again personal subjectivity.

I agree, renting and at least getting familiar with the Fuji and possibly the 32-64 lens, will give you a better idea how you'd like to proceed.

Tom as for the Pentax 28-45, no need having the wife hide it (would take up so much room)...I've always wanted one, so I'm willing to make the sacrifice and hold onto it for you. :)

Dave (D&A)
 
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darr

Well-known member
Darr, Nice to hear from you, I haven’t seen a post of yours for some time. Ironically I was thinking just yesterday about the dearth of female posters on these forums. The camper is great but we may convert to a camper van when we replace the truck camper. Who did your conversion, a firm like Sportsmobile? The bike sounds great. Wise to put the camera on the back rack. I once tried to carry a Pentax LX and lenses in a handlebar pack on my road bike. The weight caused pretty nasty handling problems.
Tom, I have been on travel and spending time with family and friends, working on an abstract portfolio, and also downsizing my home, etc. As far as "the dearth of female posters on these forums," well I am sure women visit the forums, but not so sure everyone enjoys interacting. IMO, GetDPI has some of the most polite members of any photography forum I have visited. The one turn-off I have faced here was having to view females photographed in ways I do not care to look at, so I began blocking people for the first time, and I think that made me not want to visit as often, but I do read the titles in the "New Posts" stream when I can. I am currently in Florida and the camper conversion shop I used is Custom Coach Creations in Deland, FL. It is a nine hour round trip from my home base, but it was worth the drive. They did exactly what I wanted and did a quality job. At the moment, I am only biking with my Fuji x100T, but that will change in time. Good luck to you!

Kind regards,
Darr
 

dave.gt

Well-known member
Tom, why not rent a Fuji and work with it a bit to see if it is something you might enjoy. I have a love-hate relationship with cameras. Each time I get a new one (which is not often), I need to work with it for a little while in order understand and appreciate it. I am always a little hesitant to buy a new one as I know if I do not gel with it, it does not get used. But when I do gel with a camera, it is just a pleasure to work with, or maybe it just gets out of the way so I can work. As you know, I am still with my 645D. While I am sure the Z is technically better, I just did not feel anything lacking from the work I was getting from the D. (No one as every commented on my images and said, nice picture, pity about the noise.)

Either that, have you wife hide the 28-45mm in your house somewhere...
Ha! I don't think you ever heard that your images were obsolete either.:grin: in a time now where equipment is upgraded every two years, I wonder how we ever got to the point of.... well, you know...

Imho, if you like the Pentax, why not dance with the one you're with even if you get a smaller kit?:)
 

dave.gt

Well-known member
My lighter alternative? :cool:

It fits in my pocket (an old obsolete 10 yr old Leica digital). The other one fits in a small shoulder bag, doesn't need batteries, is full frame, not MF, and is an absolute delight to hold, feel and use (either of my Vintage Nikon film cameras).

I picked them up a few days ago, having not used them in ages... stunning reacquaintance. Now the FM2n is in my backpack.

If I were looking for a lighter MF kit, no reason to but if I were, the X1D would be it hands down, even though I hate, hate, hate EVF. But there is no perfect camera, right?:)

But I would not be getting rid of a perfectly good other kit if I enjoyed it.

Good luck in deciding which way to go!:thumbup:
 

tsjanik

Well-known member
Thanks to everyone for the suggestions. I decided to try a GFX 50r with the 32-64mm zoom. Since I'm not familiar with Fuji, it's a bit of a learning curve to operate the camera the way I want. I still prefer the OVF of the Pentax 645Z, but the Fuji weighs half as much. I've done a few very preliminary and superficial comparisons. At 35mm I compared the Pentax 28-45 to the Fuji 32-64; both excellent, but the Fuji is sharper. Interestingly, I mounted the Pentax 67 55-100mm zoom on the GFX and compared it to the Fuji zoom at 55mm I find the Pentax as sharp. My own camera size comparison below. L to r: Pentax 67 with 55-100; 645Z with 28-45; 50r with 32 to 64 and last a Pentax K-1 with a 28-105. As a side note the K-1, in pixel shift mode, is competitive with the other cameras. Sorry for the bad cell phone picture, which technically doesn't belong in this thread.

Tom
 

Attachments

darr

Well-known member
Thanks to everyone for the suggestions. I decided to try a GFX 50r with the 32-64mm zoom. Since I'm not familiar with Fuji, it's a bit of a learning curve to operate the camera the way I want. I still prefer the OVF of the Pentax 645Z, but the Fuji weighs half as much. I've done a few very preliminary and superficial comparisons. At 35mm I compared the Pentax 28-45 to the Fuji 32-64; both excellent, but the Fuji is sharper. Interestingly, I mounted the Pentax 67 55-100mm zoom on the GFX and compared it to the Fuji zoom at 55mm I find the Pentax as sharp. My own camera size comparison below. L to r: Pentax 67 with 55-100; 645Z with 28-45; 50r with 32 to 64 and last a Pentax K-1 with a 28-105. As a side note the K-1, in pixel shift mode, is competitive with the other cameras. Sorry for the bad cell phone picture, which technically doesn't belong in this thread.

Tom
Thanks for the comparison photo Tom. I made a reply and deleted it after mistaking the 50r was next to the Pentax 6x7. :facesmack: So glad it is next to the Pentax K-1! I am interested in the 50r so do keep us updated on how you like it. I enjoy all my Fuji cameras, especially the X-Pro 2.

Here is a shot I took yesterday with my IR 590 X-E2 of my current gear cart.

Kind regards,
Darr

 

ErikKaffehr

Well-known member
I tend to agree with much of what Dave (GT) has expressed. Of course opinions will wildly vary as its such a personal decision. As you know, I too use the 645Z system and often thought about going lighter. Of course I am a big fan of the optical viewfinder and although things have dramatically improved with EVF's, I still feel far more comfortable with a OVF. Of course one adapts over time.

I shot with the 50R for a little while (on loan) and it's a lovely body. I tried out the 50S and except for the shallow grip on the 50R, I preferred the 50R to the 50S, simply because I am also a 35mm rangefinder shooter, so form factor and layout was more to my liking. When I want to go light, I use my leica M digitals and although not 50MP and do wish it was higher than the 18-24MP, it satisfies the need, although at times with certain shots I wished I had the 645Z with me instead.

I'm not sure how much you really gain by going with Fuji if you are packing a whole system to take along for an outing although I do agree, that in hand, the 50R even with its midrange 32-64mm zoom, feels considerably lighter in hand while walking vs. the 645Z with 45-85mm. That's the main situation where I feel the Fuji system has an advantage.

Although I don't shoot with the Sony system, with it's high resolution and superb performance that approaches medium format and some very fine lenses to choose from that are certainly lighter in weight than Pentax's, that might be a viable choice when you want to leave the 645Z home and have a walkaround that doesn't give up a whole lot to the 645Z, especially if we are talking about resolution and quality of files.

Although it may be a pipe dream and an executive of Ricoh recently expressed that he still believes many who shoot Pentax prefer an OVF in their medium format, I can't believe that at some point Pentax will enter the mirrorless medium format market with a body that accepts a Pentax designed adapter in order to use legacy lenses. This is especially slow as Pentax is slow to introduce new lenses. If this does materialize, it may be the ideal solution. In the meantime a system like the Sony could be an interesting stop gap measure, unless you commit to a whole new medium format system. Of course you are well aware of the Hassy X1D. It amazing in so many ways but has some deficiencies (my own personal preferences) I did come across, but loved it nerveless. Again this is all so subjective. Keep us posted with your thoughts and developments.

Dave (D&A)
Hi,

Great lenses may still be heavy, even with the Sony. High end glass is usually large aperture and with today's lens design, it means heavy glass.

With the Sony, Zeiss has a two sets of lenses that are of good quality and low or moderate weight. Loxia lenses are manual and Batis are AF.

The Nikon Z7 may also be worth consideration.

The Pentax 645Z and Fujifim GFX have a slightly larger sensor than 24x36, especially in the vertical direction. It seems that the GFX lenses are of extraordinary quality and some of those are also compact. So the GFX is a winner, for sure.

With Hasselblad X1D, I may have some points to consider:

  • Camera and lenses are quite expensive compared to Fujifilm offerings.
  • The X1D does not have a in body shutter, which means that usability is much reduced with adapted lenses.
  • It seems that the X1D is discontinued - sort of. Seems to be zero information from Hasselblad on the future. I would not buy into a system that cannot be ordered.


Best regards
Erik
 
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