Old Dalsa CCD "Colors" VS Modern CMOS Sony

[pedro39photo]

Hi, i made the path to MF with Mamiya ZD back - Hasselblad H3D 22 - H3DII 39
But after i tried the mamiya DM33 of a friend of mine, was a huge huge impact on me.

Never saw so beautiful skin tones, subtle micro dynamic range. For me a huge difference from Kodak sensors.
And bought a used DF+ and a Leaf Aptus 65s in 2016 and i am in love since.

Thinking about to upgrade in the budget 5000€, the trent i see is sony cmos GFX 44x33mm sensors with great detail, but all the images look to "digital" almost like a 35mm to me.

Any one miss the "look" feel of Dalsa ccds with the new cmos sony generations?
I know that the DM33 or aptus 75 - or a cheap Credo 49mm 1.1x crop maybe will be upgrade choice for me.
But i start to miss the new tech cmos cameras (mirrowless - high isos)

Any feelings and advice about the DALSA CCD look in the modern age of the sony cmos?
News about new Dalsa Cmos Sensors? 44mm ou 53mm?

Thanks and sorry my bad English

 

[GrahamWelland]

The Fuji and other Sony based solutions are great but they don’t have that same “look” TBH. Almost impossible to describe objectively but fat pixel backs do have a different rendering, especially CCD. Now what is more accurate vs like able is very very subjective.

That said, you truly can’t go wrong today.

 

[pedro39photo]

The Fuji and other Sony based solutions are great but they don’t have that same “look” TBH. Almost impossible to describe objectively but fat pixel backs do have a different rendering, especially CCD. Now what is more accurate vs like able is very very subjective.

That said, you truly can’t go wrong today.

Thanks Graham, yes its not just the pixel size.
I see rendering differences in greens/flesh tones

https://www.dtcommercialphoto.com/phase-one-iq260-vs-p45-long-exposures/

For me a mirrorless Fuji GFX with Dalsa sensor CMOS 49mm or 53mm and they color rendering was my dream camera.
Love my Dalsa CCD Aptus 65s, but start missing some modern cmos plus (long exposures, liveview, high isos...)

 

[PabloR]

Hola Pedro,

I shot with an H4D 60 and for a client with a CF39. Dalsa and kodak.

Last week i were shooting a campaign in Paris for a Champagne brand and I used my 60. I shoot with flashes, iso 50, no live view, just Hasselblad quality.

As I were afraid i rent a X1D as second body, with the sony 50 sensor.

Well. I will keep shooting with my Dalsa for sure, quality is amazing. Y prefer tones from kodak, always kodak, but we have to live the present, not the past.

Phase One is still offering 60 and 80 from Dalsa, and it has a reason, the color accuracy.

But you just can see the amazing work photographers are doing. I mean, the style, the art, comes from the photographer, and we always will find a path, even in the Sony years.

CMOS has a huge dynamic range in comparision, and you have to take very very good exposures with CCD, but if you get it, results in color terms are better.

Beyond that, it is a personal decision. I will move to CMOS any day, and I shot products. As soon as you learn to explore cmos colors, as soon you will find your way in the new times. But if you decide to buy a Dalsa sensor, go for a H5D 60, a camera for many many years if you don't look the market and only look to your personal work.

 

[dougpeterson]

Camera systems are complex and nuanced totalities. It’s very easy (and very common) to want to attribute a difference between two totally different camera systems to one technical attribute. This is just not the case, in my experience.

The Fuji GFX and Mamiya ZD are about as different as any two camera systems can be. Different design philosophies, different body style, different lenses, different coatings, different sensor size, different pixel size, different pixel dimensions, different CFA designs, different software (probably, comparing the software you would have used at the time of the ZD) for raw processing, different color profiles made by different people at different times. Why would you then attribute the difference to the type of sensor??

I see far more in common between the files from an XF IQ3 100mp (cmos) and XF IQ280 (XF) than I do between an IQ3 100mp and a GFX. That should make logical sense as, of the dozens of factors, the only commonality is they are both cmos sensors.

Anyway, you had a camera that produced tones and colors you loved, and you’re looking for that again in a more modern camera. I suggest you make an appointment at a specialized dealer and play with a variety of cameras and look through a variety of raw files, and then rent the one or two that seem to be the best contenders for your heart and do some real world shoots. No internet conversation is going to tell you which camera’s color and tone you’ll connect with for your work.

If you’re in the USA we (DT) would be glad to help at our test studios in LA or NYC or via shipping equipment to you anywhere else in the country; we also have a massive collection of raw files from dozens of systems that serve as a great first-pass for such a search.

 

[Paratom]

Hi, i made the path to MF with Mamiya ZD back - Hasselblad H3D 22 - H3DII 39
But after i tried the mamiya DM33 of a friend of mine, was a huge huge impact on me.

Never saw so beautiful skin tones, subtle micro dynamic range. For me a huge difference from Kodak sensors.
And bought a used DF+ and a Leaf Aptus 65s in 2016 and i am in love since.

Thinking about to upgrade in the budget 5000€, the trent i see is sony cmos GFX 44x33mm sensors with great detail, but all the images look to "digital" almost like a 35mm to me.

Any one miss the "look" feel of Dalsa ccds with the new cmos sony generations?
I know that the DM33 or aptus 75 - or a cheap Credo 49mm 1.1x crop maybe will be upgrade choice for me.
But i start to miss the new tech cmos cameras (mirrowless - high isos)

Any feelings and advice about the DALSA CCD look in the modern age of the sony cmos?
News about new Dalsa Cmos Sensors? 44mm ou 53mm?

Thanks and sorry my bad English

When I owned the Sinar backs with dalsa sensor I also really loved the skin color.
I also found the Leica S006 to deliver very very good skin color. But I guess you look for a digital back. However why do you want to "upgrade" if you are happy with your back?

 

[pedro39photo]

Thanks to all the feedback.
I need to try the GFX S, and see all the color profiles available, maybe the trade-off of a modern cheap Mirrorless MF GFX S its more important than the "dalsa" colors with a old DF-645AF SLR body.
I hope the big ones "Phase One-Leaf-Hasselblad" could make a entry level MF camera in the 5000-7000$ price range.
There is a huge market for this.
Greetings
Pedro

 

[Charles S]

Thanks to all the feedback.
I need to try the GFX S, and see all the color profiles available, maybe the trade-off of a modern cheap Mirrorless MF GFX S its more important than the "dalsa" colors with a old DF-645AF SLR body.
I hope the big ones "Phase One-Leaf-Hasselblad" could make a entry level MF camera in the 5000-7000$ price range.
There is a huge market for this.
Greetings
Pedro

What about buying a used MF cam with a CCD sensor ? H3 bodies can be picked up for 2000 USD or so

 

[pedro39photo]

What about buying a used MF cam with a CCD sensor ? H3 bodies can be picked up for 2000 USD or so

Hi Charles,
In my first text i tell that allready have a DF+ and Leaf Aptus 65s dalsa ccd back

 

[Speedgraphic]

A skilled editor can take a raw file pretty much anywhere you want to go.

That being said, I am loving my AFi II 7. Dalsa sensor with a 1.1 crop. The images do jump off the screen a bit, but that may also be attributed to the lenses I'm using. Based on my experience I'd encourage anyone to get an older digital back to use.

Now would most people notice the difference? Probably not hah.

 

[jerome_m]

A skilled editor can take a raw file pretty much anywhere you want to go.

Probably, but that is a lot more work than simply taking one of these antique CCD cameras and pressing the shutter button.

 

[MARKC]

I'm also a CCD lovers, currently using IQ 60MP(Dalsa), P25+(Kodak) and GFX(Sony 50MP CMOS). Honestly, they have different characters per each manufacturer. IMHO, kindly see my user experience though it's not scientific, haha...

Dalsa 60MP : Color is very accurate with good dynamic range, esp. the highlight/shadow areas are really fantastic !

Kodak 22MP : It's a well known fat pixel back, it has very strong 3D, roundness feel and unique micro-contrast . Under sufficient lighting condition, it's a killer! The color rendering power is superb, esp. the very difficult fluorescent color range which did really great !!

Sony 50MP : CMOS sensor easily outperform CCD in technical aspects. They are all good in dynamic range, high iso performance, and resolution. Except the images are little flat/dull with less depth to my eyes when compared to CCD outputs which always looked brilliant with excellent gradation. Perhaps, that relates to the 14 bit DAC...!? Nevertheless, the new generation Sony 100MP/150MP CMOS did a very good job in color reproduction, thanks for true 16 bit conversion.


All aboves are only based on my personal experience, hope it helps... Cheers :thumbup:

 

[shlomi]

If you want the old Dalsa look, you can get it with IQ3 or IQ4 (maybe even IQ1 and IQ2 - I'm not sure about that).
IQ3 and IQ4 have Mamiya Leaf profiles that give you the same results as a Leaf back.
I had a Leaf and now an IQ3 and I don't see a difference.
There was a little difference between Leaf Aptus and Leaf Credo, but that was an improvement.
I don't think you will get this look from any other system.