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The Problem with Medium Format - Aging Motifs

Godfrey

Well-known member
Sorry, you and I have not communicated very well on this one... my apologies. But your film image is the softer look they would prefer.
...
I prefer to get close to their desires SOOC rather than spend an hour on each image in post processing.

In thinking back, I never had that problem with film. Hmmm... again, it seems that may be one solution.:)
Hmm. I think it is the lens more than the medium (and its resolution or whatever) that sets the look you're after. With my Leica cameras, I've spent a lot of time, money, and energy finding and picking the right lenses that satisfy my desires. I use them on film as well as digital capture bodies, and I get the same or very similar image qualities right out of the camera. The same will go for my Hasselblad 500CM and its lenses, I'm pretty sure ... If I buy an X1D, the first thing I complement it with is going to be the Hasselblad XV Lens Adapter because I know what my V system 50, 80, 120, and 150mm lenses produce. They're not "state of the art" or even recent ... the Makro-Planar 120mm f/4 is the most recent of them and it's easily 28 years old. I'm pretty confident that they'll render very similarly on the digital sensor.

The push for sharpness and bold contrasts, higher and higher resolution, has often gotten in the way of making pleasing photographs for me. I've sold some lenses that, while terrific performers technically, simply got in my way when it comes to image rendering. Most of my photos require just a few moments of touch up and finishing off the defaults.

An example is this recent photo I made at the cafe last Saturday. The lens used on my Leica M-D was a 1972 Summilux 35mm f/1.4 v2. I specifically sought a nice example of this lens because of the way it renders, and it renders images the same on digital capture as it does on film:


That's ISO 320 @ f/1.4 @ 1/30 sec. It took no rendering work at all beyond cropping it to the image idea I had when I took it and adding the border stuff; the raw DNG file was processed at the raw defaults in LR 6.14. It has that lovely, glowy but with embedded sharpness look that I get with a razor sharp Hassy Planar 80 T* lens fitted with a Zeiss Softar 1 filter.

Again: Decide what you want, pick your tools to get there, and do it. Whatever it takes. Don't buy state of the art cameras and lenses designed to render crackling perfect landscape and detail product shots and then expect them to produce the ultimate in smooth skin tones... Not without some work and assistance, anyway. :)

G
 

Jeffrey

Active member
My solution to your dilemma is that I don't photograph people. If you think landscape photography is subjective, wait until you photograph a person. Forget it, life is too short.

Of the many times I've been asked to photograph events with any number of people, I politely decline.
 

baudolino

Active member
Without getting too philosophical about this - if you wish to shoot with Nikon, then the 12-16MP cameras, like a D4 or D3, will provide very pleasing rendering of skin, even for older people. Not the D850 as you have "experimentally confirmed". I am always so pleased with people images from my D4 that I again and again resist the urge to put the beast on eBay. The Black Pro Mist filters from Tiffen, in either 1/8 or 1/4 strength, help manage contrast on skin nicely and are popular with videographers shooting interviews. Shooting in diffused light can of course go a long way to suppress wrinkles. And finally, the choice of style - look at how Paolo Roversi shoots portraits and you may conclude that sharpness is much over-rated :)

Ok, and if I do want to get philosophical, I can remind myself of the lyrics of one of my favourite songs (I assume that there are not many Nightwish/symphonic metal fans on this forum, so this may perhaps provide some refreshment of mind):
"We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Sahara. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people. In the teeth of those stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here. We privileged few, who won the lottery of birth against all odds, how dare we whine at our inevitable return to that prior state from which the vast majority have never stirred?"
 

Stuart Richardson

Active member
I don't really think this is a technical problem. To a certain extent, there is nothing you can do to hide the passage of time, and someone who sees themselves inside as a younger person is always going to be unnerved to be confronted with an image of themselves as they currently appear. It is certainly possible to portray them in a flattering way, but that is more often a question of lighting, framing and posing than of anything to do with the lens or camera. Maybe have a look at some work that treats older people in a different way? Pictures from Home by Larry Sultan is an examination of his parents, and while not particularly forgiving, it is exceptionally accomplished. Alec Soth is another great person to look at for portraiture, in that he never seems to hide people's quirks or age, but never comes across as exploitative or sensationalist. He builds trust and does not betray it. Somehow I think that if you photograph your friends sidelit in some late afternoon window light, expose generously, and take a few minutes for them to relax, they will likely be happier with the results. One of the biggest advantages of the view camera has nothing to do with film...if you make the photo a ritual, everyone involved tends to slow down and relax. They see that that big box in front of them is not going to "just get it over with", and it is something more serious, something to wait for. The biggest disadvantage to modern cameras is that most people are uncomfortable in front of them unless you work hard to set them at ease. I am not saying you should use a view camera necessarily, only that you should try to mine the advantages that it gives. Slow down...fix the light and posture. No one really needs snapshots anymore...our lives are utterly full of them. Real photos, however, are few and far between.
 

Shashin

Well-known member
Everyone wants their portrait cut off at the shoulders, narcissist want it cut off below, everyone else above. There are no other hard and fast rules.
 

stngoldberg

Well-known member
This thread is hilarious!
I’ve always been fascinated by portraiture; so last year I bought some Elinchrom lights and modifiers and requested some of my friends to allow me to immortalize them in living color.
Most of my acquaintances are on the upper side of eighty; when they saw my huge Hasselblad 50-110mm staring them in their faces they universally freaked. I told them don’t worry!
I promised them that...”I would make them look good.”
I felt like a plastic surgeon in front of my computer screen minimizing the wrinkles, removing the blemishes...I turned back the clock...especially for the women.
Sometimes, I was afraid I went too far and someone might be offended that I had modified their appearance.
Not too worry...the younger I made them; the larger the smile and the hugs
In most cases, my subjects requested additional copies of my work so they could share with their children and grandchildren.
Stanley
 

dave.gt

Well-known member
This thread is hilarious!
I’ve always been fascinated by portraiture; so last year I bought some Elinchrom lights and modifiers and requested some of my friends to allow me to immortalize them in living color.
Most of my acquaintances are on the upper side of eighty; when they saw my huge Hasselblad 50-110mm staring them in their faces they universally freaked. I told them don’t worry!
I promised them that...”I would make them look good.”
I felt like a plastic surgeon in front of my computer screen minimizing the wrinkles, removing the blemishes...I turned back the clock...especially for the women.
Sometimes, I was afraid I went too far and someone might be offended that I had modified their appearance.
Not too worry...the younger I made them; the larger the smile and the hugs
In most cases, my subjects requested additional copies of my work so they could share with their children and grandchildren.
Stanley
BINGO!!! Stanley wins! All I need to do is limit how much processing time I want to handle and just shoot film or use my D3100 14mp the rest of the time.

Stanley, my sister is a generation ahead of me, and she was delighted with the images I processed for her. She now has a head shot that she likes and it went straight to print and even FB. But I don't want to do too many of those...LOL..:):):)
 
M

mjr

Guest
It's an interesting discussion, because it is as much about technique as it is about managing expectations in my opinion. I have shot many hundreds of women and for me the issue isn't in the 70+ range it's the late 40's/early 50's range, they are much harder to deal with in my experience than older. The worst being business headshots of mid 40's women, that's tough!

This lady was in her 90's, just about the eldest woman I have photographed, I thought she looked fantastic and she was proud of her age, I asked her if I could show her in all her glory as she looked amazing for 90, she loved it! That with a Leica S and 180 at ISO800 handheld, a very nice lens for older people.



The late 40's women are much tougher because they aren't quite ready to let go of what they were and embrace what they are, as a huge lover of mid 40's women I always find it odd because youth is such a fleeting thing and I think older women look far more beautiful.



I like this, D800 and zeiss 135 f2, Lovely lens for portraiture, early 40's woman and beautiful.

Older blokes don't really seem to be a problem, much easier!



This is the real tough one to manage, again with Leica S, she looks great to me but was very difficult to photograph as just didn't want to be!



It's easier in the studio, light helps a lot, but then I also say to everyone I photograph, that I'm going to embrace the way they look. This with the GFX and 110mm, another great lens.



Anyway, I think it's as much about technique as it is about making them feel comfortable, I don't proclaim to be an expert at anything, my technique and processing are what they are, don't do much at all. Maybe post something you have shot so we can see what you're facing?
 

Charles S

Well-known member
Anyway, I think it's as much about technique as it is about making them feel comfortable, I don't proclaim to be an expert at anything, my technique and processing are what they are, don't do much at all. Maybe post something you have shot so we can see what you're facing?
Lighting from the front with a large tripple diffused octa or parabolic makes a big difference. It washes out a lot of the fine wrinkles
 

darr

Well-known member
Re: Portrait Pro or similar

You can try using Portrait Pro software. There are many things (some over-the-top) you can do with the software, but you can also use it artistically to subtly enhance skin, eyes, etc. When I taught portrait photography classes in the past (retired in 2016), I taught students how to use this software for professional retouching. There is a learning curve as with other software, and IMO this software works best when not used on auto pilot. Portrait Pro allows you to make post processing recipes besides using the auto features. I would make various types of recipes for women, men, children, old, young, etc., and the students would use these recipes while learning how to subtly retouch. I would say to anyone that is going to go into the portrait photography profession to get this program or something similar as the general public *expects* retouching services with professional portraiture today. If you can use Photoshop, go for it, but as a past professional photographer that could have hundreds of faces to present in a week, the only way to make money, please most everyone, and stay sane is to learn the tools of the trade and not waste time in front of a computer all day.

Good luck!
Darr
 

Jorgen Udvang

Subscriber Member
It's not "The Problem with Medium Format", it's "The Problem with Digital Cameras". Unless the purpose of a portrait is to show all the physical imperfections of a human face, a high resolution electronic sensor is a deeply flawed tool for portraits. Opinions will vary of course, but for me, the purpose of a portrait is to get behind the mask, to catch the expression and the "soul" of the subject, to convey a story. Black and white film is fantastic for that purpose, some colour films, like Portra, likewise. Early digital sensors, preferably those with 12MP or less, work fine also.

Would Hitchcock's movies have been better had they been produced in 8K, 48fps and colour? I don't think so.

HP5/F6/Samyang 135mm f/2




Portra 400/F6/Samyang 135mm f/2

 

dave.gt

Well-known member
Very interesting discussion and many thanks. Since I have been up way too early once again, I read through the posts here and the OP was really about a scenario where we are visiting family, sitting in the living room and participating in lively discussions as all families do, and as the time nears to leave, we have just enough time for some photos before leaving.

Lighting, of course is a bad mix, with bright light from the windows and incandescent lights in all the wrong places. Metering is difficult because the people on the right are in much brighter light than those on the left. And more problems as a fast lens has too shallow a DOF, etc. ...and there is no way to control lighting, so it is what it is. Harsh.

Of course, it is a simple, casual snap or three that would be nice to carry home, so, all things considered, I am leaning toward the going back to TriX for these moments, with my FM2n/FE2, having sold my M's long ago. Of course, a few color frames with my old trusty Leica X1 are easy enough to do at the same time.

Discretion is paramount in using high resolution equipment. :thumbup:
 

Paratom

Well-known member
in my experience some of the "smaller" sensors like m43 or even some FF are worse in this regard than MF. MF has a lot of detail but also very nice tonality and midtones, while specially m43 often looks more contrasty and punchy, even oversharpended.

Then its a question of the lens. For example I find the Leica S lenses to render sharp but still gentle.

The great thing about mirrorless is you can put allmost each (older) lens on the body and see which gives you the look you want.

For my taste I like a gentle rendering but I also like to show "the reality". But its my hobby, probably much different for a pro who shoots the images for clients who have different taste.

For me - the less people try to hide things (including age) the more I feel they are compfortable with themselves. All the marketing and social media etc. make it hard so because many try to sell us the story that perfection is beautiful.
Just my opinion.
 

dave.gt

Well-known member
Without getting too philosophical about this - if you wish to shoot with Nikon, then the 12-16MP cameras, like a D4 or D3, will provide very pleasing rendering of skin, even for older people. Not the D850 as you have "experimentally confirmed". I am always so pleased with people images from my D4 that I again and again resist the urge to put the beast on eBay. The Black Pro Mist filters from Tiffen, in either 1/8 or 1/4 strength, help manage contrast on skin nicely and are popular with videographers shooting interviews. Shooting in diffused light can of course go a long way to suppress wrinkles. And finally, the choice of style - look at how Paolo Roversi shoots portraits and you may conclude that sharpness is much over-rated :)

Ok, and if I do want to get philosophical, I can remind myself of the lyrics of one of my favourite songs (I assume that there are not many Nightwish/symphonic metal fans on this forum, so this may perhaps provide some refreshment of mind):
"We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Sahara. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people. In the teeth of those stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here. We privileged few, who won the lottery of birth against all odds, how dare we whine at our inevitable return to that prior state from which the vast majority have never stirred?"
Now, I have an inexplicable desire, renewed now, for a Nikon D4!!!:p
 
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