Phase IQ1 Revision number

[borzamircea]

Hi all! First of all I would like to thank all of you in this community for the helpful insights on MF cameras, lenses and stuff. You have been very helpful in my journey which led to the transition to MF.

Secondly, I would like to give you a bit of background, so you have an idea of what I want.

I shot mostly Nikon, up until the D800E a couple of years ago, then I moved back to film with an H1 and then transitioned to a H5D4, almost ended up opening a studio, but that did not materialize and I decided to keep it as a hobby, as it has been for 16 years. I mostly do portraits in the autumn/winter and landscapes when I travel abroad or in my country, Romania.

I recently sold the Hasselblad H5D and have been looking at PO, specifically the XF with an IQ140 and a 35 mm and 80 mm. I did get to play with the XF and decided that for me it would be more future proof, due to updates and integration with profoto flashes.

I did look into the GFX 50s but after trying it, I went back to the idea of PO, because of the EVF, which I did not like/feel comfortable with. Also, the upgradeability of the PO system down the road would be a big plus, meaning I could change my back whenever needed. The lenses for PO, non br, are also cheaper than the Fuji counterparts (23 and 63 specifically). The leaf shutter for flash sync is also a plus for my portrait sessions.

So, moving on to my question.

I found used IQ140 backs in 2 places (well, thats where I narrowed it down). A German shop on eBay here:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Phase-One-...rentrq:90eb6c8f16a0ab452e761e10ffe8cf9e|iid:1

I also found one locally in Bucharest, 500 km away. After discussing with the seller here, the guy would discount it to 4200 eur.

After I sent him the above link, he said that the revision means that the back has been to PO for servicing 4 times. Tried to look it up online but came up empty. He claims that his back has only 4 k actuations opposed to 33 k for the one in Germany. But he would only send it after a bank transfer, a thing with which I am not comfortable. Going to see the back is also not an option due to busy work schedule in this period.

Also, the back in Germany comes with a 1 year warranty and looks pretty good, condition wise, while the seller in Romania does not have any warranty left.

I know that because there are no moving parts in a DB the shutter count does not really matter, except for raising the price when selling. Inside components should wear out like PC components, so not much worry there.

I also looked at MPB.com for some offers, but they are pretty limited at this time. (saw an IQ140 at 95 k for 2500 eur, since gone).

Coming back to my research regarding the Revision number, I saw a few IQ1 series back with revision 1-4 on eBay, but the IQ2 and 3 have Revision 102-104, which did not make sense, considering the statement that the back has been in service x times. I am a programmer so it broke my logic here.

My question is: what does it actually stand for and does it affect performance, meaning:
- if a back has been serviced x times, could some components be changed, cleaned, etc.? What I mean by this is: if a back has been in service for 4 times, could some components be newer than one which has not been serviced?
- if a back has been revised 4 times, is it more prone to failures than one which has not been serviced? (the seller in Bucharest argumented like this), but from my logic a component which has been serviced more should have the same or less failure rate than one which has been not, as the probability is the same, considering that some faulty components may have been changed, bringing up on par to a non serviced back.

Which one would you choose?

Thank you all for taking the time to read this and also for the input. Sorry for the long post but the nature of my work makes me ask all these questions while doing the decision making process.

Thank you all again and cheers,

Mircea

 

[f8orbust]

I'm sure one of the friendly dealers on here will chip in and clarify what the revision figure indicates. To be honest, I'd never really given it any thought.

In terms of the DB, I never really bother too much about actuations, I think the general physical condition of the back will tell you more about whether or not it has been abused. In that respect, the one on eBay looks in very good shape.

So, I'd go for the one through the eBay seller because it looks in good shape, sounds in good shape, only has 33k clicks, has a 1 moth return option, and you have far more protection financially purchasing through eBay than via a direct bank transfer to a private seller (which is basically 'pay and pray'). And, in this instance, you also get a warranty - though I suspect this is with the seller, not Phase One. In which case if the seller ceases trading, there goes your warranty. That said, the eBay seller in question has been around for 14 years, and this type of warranty is still better than anything you'll get from a private seller.

Jim

P.S. I noticed the seller is asking for cash / bank transfer only ... whilst also showing PayPal as a payment choice. They can't do this, it's a breach of eBay policy. If they show PayPal as an option, then it's up to you if you use it or not. That said, I would always recommend using PayPal (via a credit card on file), as it adds two extra layers of financial protection (PayPal and you credit card company) to any transaction.

 

[borzamircea]

Hi Jim,

That's what I would prefer too, using Paypal. As you said, the extra layer of security is reassuring. I can send the seller an email to clarify if they accept PayPal too.

PS. Just looked and it shows as only PayPal, at least from my eBay account.

Thanks,
Mircea

 

[dougpeterson]

"Rev" does not mean the number of repair/service trips. You can ignore this value when assessing a back.

That said, there are many things that might be wrong/quirky/undesirable about a back. When we check a back for sale (new or used) we do a rather lengthy and intensive series of checks and tests. Basically we test for any defect we have ever seen be wrong with a back, and in the 17 years we've been doing this you can imagine we've seen a lot of "that never happens" issues happen. Even if the seller is working in good faith to report the condition of the back as they use it, they often don't use every feature/port/mode of the back. As an obvious example, someone who never shoots tethered may not be aware the firewire port is starting to misbehave, while someone else who never shoots untethered may not be aware that the CF card slot has developed issues. And especially if someone has only ever worked with one or two backs they may not recognize more subtle issues like a touchscreen that needs factory calibration because, while technically functional, it doesn't behave as consistently and accurately as one should expect from that model.

The firmware is also a consideration worth calling out specifically. Updating firmware is usually an effortless affair, but in the case that a firmware update fails it can sometimes "brick" a back, which is a minor inconvenience if its under warranty, and a big problem if it is not. So it's far better to buy a back that is already up to date then to have the onus on you to update upon receipt.

And trust me when I say (after doing this for quite a while) that everyone has different tolerances for things like the condition of the IR filter; we have a specific workflow, we've developed over the years, to test and quantify the condition of the IR filter on a used back and it's extremely rare that the condition is factory-new. Using this method we've even had a couple of backs over the years that were new purchases that we rejected from the factory. Will most people notice a very slight ding in the IR filter? No. But then you find a photographer whose "thing" is that they low contrast scenes and jack the contrast up in post, and even very slight imperfections start to show up. So we've set our level of scrutiny accordingly high.

And all this assumes the seller is working in good faith.

Shot count on the digital back, as you note, does not matter in and of itself. A back that was schlepped around the world for a year, banging around carelessly in a backpack, etc but only has a 5000 captures on it is far less desirable than the backs that our Cultural Heritage clients trade in to us that have hundreds of thousands of captures, all of which were done from the top of a copy stand in a climate-controlled humidity-controlled environment. However, if all you knew about a back was its shot count it can serve as a loose proxy for amount-of-use-and-overall condition, but hopefully that is never the only thing you know about a back.

All this doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't ever buy used from an individual rather than a dealer, though I'd obviously and biased-ly advocate for the buy-from-a-phase-one-dealer route (we don't sell outside of the USA, but here is our refurbished digital back listings though it's always best to call because we have such a turnover of backs sometimes our online store is not up to date). But it does mean you should be sensibly aware of the increased risk of anything from minor hassle to major problem, and understand what things you're doing to increase or decrease that risk.
- Length of remaining warranty?
- Can you test it yourself before committing?
- Physical condition? Shot count?
- Has every feature/port/mode that you'll be using been thoroughly expected? by whom, with what level of experience with phase one digital backs?
- Is the firmware up to date?
- Have you checked the serial number through your phase one dealer to ensure it is not stolen?
- What's the return policy?
- What accessories are included and what condition are they in? (e.g. old lower-mAh batteries? or batteries that sat empty for a long time and no longer hold a full charge?)
- Does it come with any service/support/training?

In the case of also wanting an XF but buying the back separately you're essentially doubling the risk that some part of your system acquisition goes sideways. Ideally you'd want to buy a system already tested together; how do you even test an IQ140 without having a body to test it on when it arrives? Notably, when buying from a dealer, the body (whether new or factory refurbished) is often heavily discounted when included in a kit. You'll also want to make sure the XF has the right viewfinder mask for the crop 33x44mm size of the IQ140 sensor.

I may sound a bit jaded, and to be sure I am 100% biased. Also, my sample/experience is not statistically random. In my job, I'm unlikely to speak to those who buy used on eBay/whatever and had a fantastic and smooth experience. In contrast I'm very likely to speak to those who had a bad experience for one reason or another. So from that jaded and biased experience I'll end with some cliches that ring true to me: The pain of a good purchase goes away quickly. The pain of a purchase gone wrong tends to linger a long time. Paying the lowest cost is not a bad goal, but paying the lowest cost at any cost is .

In any case, however you go, I wish you the best of luck. I have a soft spot for the IQ140; before the advent of CMOS backs, I shot weddings most often on an IQ140 back. For the money, it's a fast back with a great file (within the typical CCD ISO range). It's probably worth a separate thread to explore whether the IQ140 is the best fit for your wants/needs vs a P65+ or an IQ150 or the many other options in that general budget ballpark, but I'll leave that to you .

 

[borzamircea]

Hi Doug,

Thanks for the input, I was expecting you to chime in. That is indeed reassuring.

I did enjoy the 40 MP files from the Hasselblad, and don't wish to go to say a 50 MP CMOS for the time being. Fortunately/unfortunately eBay is the only way to go for me as the local dealer here doesn't listen to my demands and budget. I asked him for a CPO setup as stated below and he came back with a cpo IQ3100 with a 120 BR macro.

Tried to explain again and again what my wishes and constraints are, but gave up eventually as he was trying to sell me something I didn't want/afford and decided to go on my own with the purchases.

Again, thank you all for the time and patience, will let you know how it turns out. As it looks now, the better deal is the one on eBay.

Cheers,

Mircea

 

[dougpeterson]

Fortunately/unfortunately eBay is the only way to go for me as the local dealer here doesn't listen to my demands and budget. I asked him for a CPO setup as stated below and he came back with a cpo IQ3100 with a 120 BR macro.

Tried to explain again and again what my wishes and constraints are, but gave up eventually as he was trying to sell me something I didn't want/afford and decided to go on my own with the purchases.

That's frustrating to hear! If a dealer doesn't earn and value your business, then they are of no value to you.

 

[borzamircea]

Hi Doug,

Yes, that's why I gave up. It took me almost 1 year of patience. That's why I am even afraid to ask about the SN. But I guess since it's from a vendor in Germany it should be okay.

Thank you very much for the input.

Cheers,

Mircea

 

[Steve Hendrix]

Hi Doug,

Thanks for the input, I was expecting you to chime in. That is indeed reassuring.

I did enjoy the 40 MP files from the Hasselblad, and don't wish to go to say a 50 MP CMOS for the time being. Fortunately/unfortunately eBay is the only way to go for me as the local dealer here doesn't listen to my demands and budget. I asked him for a CPO setup as stated below and he came back with a cpo IQ3100 with a 120 BR macro.

Tried to explain again and again what my wishes and constraints are, but gave up eventually as he was trying to sell me something I didn't want/afford and decided to go on my own with the purchases.

Again, thank you all for the time and patience, will let you know how it turns out. As it looks now, the better deal is the one on eBay.

Cheers,

Mircea

Mircea -

Note that the 40mp sensor in the Phase Oe IQ140 is not the same 40mp sensor in the Hasselblad H5D-40. One is a Dalsa sensor (Phase), the other is a Kodak-based sensor (Hasselblad). They're both great sensors (again, in the constraints of CCD), but the Hasselblad sensor has roughly a 1 stop ISO advantage and a 2-3 stop long exposure advantage. That doesn't mean the IQ140 is not worthy.

It produces excellent color and tonality, captures at a fast rate for a digital back (faster than 1 shot per second), and has the Phase One eco-system and Capture One behind it. With appropriate lighting, it produces excellent tonality for portraiture. It's essentially a smaller version of the Phase One IQ160, and many of our clients value the file quality for shooting people with the 60mp/40mp Phase One sensors.

You may already be aware of this, just thought I would mention it.


Steve Hendrix/CI

 

[borzamircea]

Hi Steve,

Yup, I am aware they are made by different makers, but I was (as I sold the H5D) /am happy with the 40 mp CCD in general. Print size wise it is more than adequate, usually A3/A3+ sometimes A2. I also find the colors really good.

High ISO never interested me much other than a gimmick, as I either shoot with flashes for my portrait sessions/ on a tripod when doing landscapes, at base ISO. Even with film I shot Portra 160/ Ektar at 100 or the fuji one (can't recall the name) at 160.

Thank you all again for the helpful tips/info.

Cheers,

Mircea

 

[narikin]

Just to throw a wrench in here:

As you've waited so long, why not wait another month? - the Fuji 100mp is coming, and a lot of Phase backs will drop then -I mean extra ones traded in and private sellers offloading theirs. Have you considered the Fuji yourself? 50Mp GFX are cheap and will become even cheaper soon.

I'm a Phase owner/user - 10years and 4 upgrades, but am buying into the Fuji system, as soon as I can get the 100mp. Phase have failed to produce a 21c. camera, and their IQ4 firmware/launch has been such a royal screw up, and still is... I'm looking elsewhere.

 

[borzamircea]

Hi Narikin,

I did try the GFX50s, but couldn't get used to the EVF. Maybe it is because I have used OVFs all the time and its the novelty.

The purchase is planned 1 -1 1/2 months away, so I still have time to decide. The GFX50s is discounted here, money wise I could get a GFX50s with 32-64 for roughly the same money as a XF IQ140 and 80 mm + 35 mm lenses.

I am not really betting on people offloading their setups due to the GFX100. I believe it will take longer than 1 month for PO bodies/backs to appear due to back orders on the GFX100, most likely. Whoever wanted to offload their gear in expectation of the GFX100, would have done so already, I believe.

I did that some time ago,always postponing, always waiting for the next big thing/release etc, but after many experiences, I now believe it's more about what suits your needs now. Technology always changes, and newer isn't always better/faster.

The most recent example which comes to mind is the NVIDIA graphics cards when building a PC 2 weeks ago. I decided to buy a used 1080ti rather than a new 2080 at twice the price, because of the minimal performance differences and the fact that ray-tracing is still in its' infancy, so I. would have been paying for unused technology.

I like to translate this in mostly all my purchasing decisions, because for the above, although an EVF is cool and new, for me it's another failure point and, more importantly, something I couldn't get used to. Phase one, in my eyes, still offer the modularity I need, and some built in features, which I really like.

I will see, as I left a buffer of both time and money, so as not to rush.

Thanks for the input!

Cheers,

Mircea

 

[borzamircea]

Hi All,

Thank you all for the help, I wanted to update you guys. After trying to reach my delaer again and getting empty promises, I eventually got tiredI managed to build a XF kit with the following:
-XF body with <2000 clicks, like new
-IQ140 Back ~ 40k clicks
-SK 80 mm Lens, non BR.

And here are my questions:

1. The back had some dust on it, tried blowing it with a blower. When I got the body, It came with the Phase cleaning kit, so decided to use solution B with the card and a wipe. When I went across the sensor most of the dust was gone, but the cloth had some blue residue from the bottom of the sensor, if that makes sense. Otherwise tried the back and the dust does not show up, I can try cleaning it again.

@Doug, what is the blue residue, and is there a possibility that the IR sensor is nicked?

2. Can I clean the VF glass with solution B, it has some prints on it. (probably customers in the shop)

Thank you all again for the help, will post some pics, as I am planning to shoot this weekend. I usually shoot the wife.

Cheers,

Mircea

 

[Pemihan]

The blue residue could be some leftover of cleaning solution A.

Regarding the regular cleaning solution B I can recommend that you get a new bottle of Eclipse once in a while. After having been opened for a while I find that it leaves streaks on the IR filter. I think I read somewhere that the fluid attracts moisture thus slowly losing the ability to evaporate fast enough to not leave streaks.

By the way, I can highly recommend the woven cleaning cloths that Capture Integration sells, they are light years better than Pec Pads.
https://www.digitalback.com/product/ci-cleaning-wipes/

Peter

 

[borzamircea]

Hi Peter,

I ordered a Eclipse bottle and some ewipes from them since that was what I used from them to clean my Hasselblad. But, of course, with my luck, the only distributor of photosol products in Romania was out of stock for a few months, so I had to order from Teamwork in the UK.

I thought it could be the solution A, as it looked like residue from a ball pen.

Thanks for the help!

Cheers,

Mircea

 

[borzamircea]

Hi!

Would it be advisable to clean the glass on the bottom of the Xf viewfinder with eclipse or just wipe with one of the pads?

Thanks!

Cheers,

Mircea

 

[DougDolde]

MPB has an IQ140
https://www.mpb.com/en-us/used-equi...mat-cameras/phase-one-iq1-40-back/sku-845220/

 

[borzamircea]

Hey Doug,

Thanks! I did Buy the body from them, the back was bought via eBay. Thanks anyway!

Mircea

 

[borzamircea]

Hi all,

I just got the eclipse solution together with the pec pads, along with the presoaked pads. Again, is it safe to use on the bottom of the xf prism?

Thanks

Chers,

Mircea

 

[Paul2660]

I would be very careful with anything WET on a Prism. I have ruined many a focusing screen not XF, but Nikon and Canon and DF attempting to get a smudge off. The eclipse fluid should dry clean but still may not and can cause an issue with the prism. It's cut glass and the problem you run into is the issue with something wet getting into the glass.

If the issue is not terrible I would just ignore it, and or send into Phase One if possible to have the XF cleaned. Might not be possible in your location.

On the XF I am not sure if you can just remove the focusing prism screen like you could on the DF and DF+, to replace it.
If you are attempting to clean anything besides the actual focusing screen, with liquid, I would consider taking it to someone with more experience.

Just me.

Paul C

 

[borzamircea]

Hi Paul,

I am referring to the bottom of the prism, not the focusing screen. Like so:



I can always use a dry wipe, if needed. I did clean my H5D sensor myself, it's not that hard, but I didn't need to clean the bottom of the prism VF on that one.

It's just my OCD acting up.

Appreciate the help.

Cheers!

Mircea