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Thread: DTcommercialphoto.com article: "10 resons to choose MF"

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    DTcommercialphoto.com article: "10 resons to choose MF"

    I got an email today directing me to this article about the 10 reasons to choose Medium Format:

    https://www.dtcommercialphoto.com/10...igital-camera/

    I think most of the stated reasons are true if you're striving for the ultimate technical quality and don't worry about cost and/or weight of the equipment.

    But I think their reason #4 is hogwash:
    Quote Originally Posted by the 4th reason
    4) A New Perspective

    Because the sensor itself is larger, you get a wider field of view with less visual distortion than you would with an equivalent 35mm sensor. This means you can capture sweeping vistas with less of the fisheye look distorting your image. A 50mm lens on a medium format sensor appears more similar to how we actually see the world, and has a big impact on the overall “look” of medium format.
    If you stand in the same spot with a different format camera and the same "equivalent" focal length (of a decent lens) you get exactly the same perspective and visual distortion. In my mind this is true from a phone camera to a 6x10 film plate (or larger). You'll be able to spot many other differences between the shots, but the perspective and visual distortion will be exactly the same among all of them.


    So I guess it's down to 9 reasons for me
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    Re: DTcommercialphoto.com article: "10 resons to choose MF"

    Quote Originally Posted by pegelli View Post
    I think most of the stated reasons are true if you're striving for the ultimate technical quality and don't worry about cost and/or weight of the equipment. But I think their reason #4 is hogwash:
    You have got to ask yourself if they are willing to make up an absolute untruth, what about the credibility of the other nine reasons as well. There is really only one reason to shoot digital medium format: better technical quality. You don't need to divide it up six ways from Sunday to get a longer list.
    Last edited by faberryman; 22nd May 2019 at 15:20.

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    Re: DTcommercialphoto.com article: "10 resons to choose MF"

    I got the same email and thought it was a bit "insufficient"...(don't want to use stronger words, like "lame", to keep this forum a pleasant space). What I mean, the biggest event in MFD (GFX100 launch) is taking place tomorrow (with leaks already out there for the past few days and 23 May being known as the launch date for at least the past month) and.......Hasselblad and Leica are completely silent.....and Phase One have nothing to say, except for a dealer sending around an email telling us that it is worth paying 4-5 times as much for the same resolution. I am dumbfounded as to what the PR guys at these companies are thinking. Why are there no teasers, new image files to play with, competitions, special events, workshops, limited time offers, special upgrade deals? Or at least comparisons of the different "look" one can get from the 54x40 sensor, compared with 44x33.....when they bother to make these claims. Like the proverbial deer frozen in the headlight, all three of them. (btw, I do appreciate the "look" of the bigger sensor, hence my recent purchase of a second hand IQ280...funded through the sale of my GFX50s system... so no Fuji fanboy here).

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    Re: DTcommercialphoto.com article: "10 resons to choose MF"

    Another way to think about perspective is the format itself. I simply don't like the 2:3 ratio of 35mm cameras. I much prefer the "medium format perspective" closer to 4:3.

    There are many reasons to grab a 35mm DSLR. There are many reasons to go with a mirrorless camera. There are many reasons to go with medium format.

    Shoot what you like----they are all acceptable photography tools. But only medium format digital is Dante Approved.


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    Re: DTcommercialphoto.com article: "10 resons to choose MF"

    Quote Originally Posted by kdphotography View Post
    I much prefer the "medium format perspective" closer to 4:3.
    I always considered 4:3 was "4/3rd" (or "m4/3rd") and P&S format

    I personally use 5:7 quite often, (no kidding), cropping top and bottom from my 4:3 sensor shots and left/right of my 3:2 sensor shots.
    Maybe that is because I as a European am exposed to a lot of A-size paper formats which also have roughly that aspect ratio.
    In general the aspect ratio of my final photo's are almost never set by the sensor aspect ratio, I use what I think is best for the image.
    And in my mind "perspective" has nothing to do with the aspect ratio of the sensor or final photograph, it's simply the size relation between subjects in the foreground vs. subjects in the background.

    Now bring on the square sensor so you don't have to rotate your camera between portrait and landscape shots and we can take my OP way off topic
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    Re: DTcommercialphoto.com article: "10 resons to choose MF"

    Quote Originally Posted by pegelli View Post

    Now bring on the square sensor so you don't have to rotate your camera between portrait and landscape shots and we can take my OP way off topic
    👍

    My most used digital camera the X-Pro2, has its aspect ratio set to 1:1 99% of the time. I also crop to the image and not to the sensor size.
    It saves on buying all those "L" frame tripod adapters.
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    Re: DTcommercialphoto.com article: "10 resons to choose MF"

    Reminds me of the everlasting Lula thread many years ago, where someone was arguing with the Rest of the World saying focal length changes perspective. I'm in the camp that the only way to change perspective is with your feet. Move the camera, change perspective. Everything else is just cropping in one way or another. Not that cropping is bad, but it is cropping. After all, MF is severely cropped 8x10.


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    Re: DTcommercialphoto.com article: "10 resons to choose MF"

    I wonder how long before marketing responds..
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    Re: DTcommercialphoto.com article: "10 resons to choose MF"

    Quote Originally Posted by darr View Post
    👍

    My most used digital camera the X-Pro2, has its aspect ratio set to 1:1 99% of the time. I also crop to the image and not to the sensor size.
    It saves on buying all those "L" frame tripod adapters.
    Hi Darr,

    Good take on the L-plate!

    I did a small experiment recently, looking for the best pictures I made 2015 (the last year I had significant use of my P45+) and 2018. Theory could be that 2015 my choices would be more affected by the P45+ back.

    2015
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	2015.jpg 
Views:	19 
Size:	21.3 KB 
ID:	141716

    2018
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	2018.jpg 
Views:	9 
Size:	21.1 KB 
ID:	141717

    I see some change from 2015 to 2018 one thing is that aspect ratio was lower back in 2015. Another change is that it may have been that my shooting style got more dynamic. In 2015, one of the shots were tripodless, in 2018 three out of 17.

    Some other small reflections...

    • European formats are more elongated compared to US formats. I like to print large, but have limited printing size, so I tend to use the largest format paper I have, A2 and it is pretty close to 3:2 (1.41), which happens to be the square root of two.
    • I would think that presentation goes into the direction of large screens and they are normally wide aspect ratio.


    Best regards
    Erik

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    Re: DTcommercialphoto.com article: "10 resons to choose MF"

    Quote Originally Posted by pegelli View Post
    I got an email today directing me to this article about the 10 reasons to choose Medium Format:

    https://www.dtcommercialphoto.com/10...igital-camera/

    I think most of the stated reasons are true if you're striving for the ultimate technical quality and don't worry about cost and/or weight of the equipment.

    But I think their reason #4 is hogwash:


    If you stand in the same spot with a different format camera and the same "equivalent" focal length (of a decent lens) you get exactly the same perspective and visual distortion. In my mind this is true from a phone camera to a 6x10 film plate (or larger). You'll be able to spot many other differences between the shots, but the perspective and visual distortion will be exactly the same among all of them.


    So I guess it's down to 9 reasons for me
    Let us see:
    1) 16 bits

    Technically a lie. All Phase One cameras prior to IQ3100 MP and IQ4150MP were 14-bit devices using 14 bit data files.

    "To start with, all Phase One cameras shoot in true, native 16-bit color, without no upscaling like other smaller medium-format systems. Most smaller-format cameras have, at best, 14-bit color depth, meaning they are doing a little better with 16,384 tonal levels. Some may digitally upscale their files to 16-bits, but information can’t just be made up. Because Phase One digital systems capture at 16-bit natively, you get the marvelous ability to record and distinguish 65,536 tonal levels per channel. 16-bit color gives you smooth flawless gradations of skin tone and smooth open skies"

    2) The Best Image Quality

    A question of taste. If you like Capture One, it may make sense. It could be argued that other processing pipelines are better, depending on photographers needs.

    'With Capture One processing the RAW files, and the files themselves being shot in 16-bit color, there simply isn’t a better quality image available in a consumer camera system. A big factor that many photographers aren’t aware of is that even the math converting the light energy captured by the sensor into color data can have a huge impact on the final image. It’s no secret that Capture One has the most accurate RAW processing algorithms available, and its native integration with Phase One hardware means you are getting the most accurate color – from rich skin tones to subtle shadow detail often lost in lower-end cameras, it’s a marked difference, and one of the reasons you’ll constantly hear photographers talk about the “look of medium format.” While Capture One provides excellent support for many camera systems, Phase One cameras will always perform head-and-shoulders above the others – one of the benefits of having one company design the entire imaging pipeline, from pixel to print.
    In a way, I object to this. The images are my images, I process them in the way I want.

    3) Best dynamic range

    Probably true, regarding the new cameras using Sony's CMOS sensors. Fuji launched GFX 100 that seems to offer true 16 bit readout on 44x33 mm. Sure the IQ4150 beats it, but at a stiff price.
    But modern CMOS is pretty good regarding DR, anyway.

    CCD stuff sucks regarding DR.

    4) New perspective...

    Fake statement. Already discussed.

    5) Better lenses...

    Very questionable. Phase one compared their lenses with Hasselblad's pretty ancient line of H-series lenses. What does that say about newer designs for the Hasselblad X1 and the Fuji GFX. Did any one compare Phase One lenses on 44x33 mm with Fuji GFX lenses?

    Not that I am a Fuji fan, but Fujifilm has put a lot of design work into their lenses. Also the lenses are calculated for the 55 mm image circle of the GFX format.

    If you look at technical cameras, that is another thing...

    6) Speed

    Are they joking?

    7) Connectivity

    I cannot comment on that.

    8) Flexibility

    I love the concept of the technical camera. So, that is a point for the MFD systems. But we have technical camera solutions for the GFX and 24x36 mirrorless, too. GFX and 24x36 mm have built in focal plane shutter, so they work with almost any lens.

    9) The most advanced features

    May be, may be not.

    10) Highest resolution

    That is the case. But resolution is possibly not the most important feature for many photographers.

    Resolution is not sharpness.

    Image reproduction capability needs to be seen in perspective of:
    • Focusing accuracy
    • Diffraction
    • Lens quality
    • And other factors.


    DTCommercial could make the list shorter and gain more credibility.

    No doubt, Phase One makes great cameras and they are alone with the 150 MP 54x41 mm sensor.
    It is also probably true that Phase One's cameras and tools integrate very well with Capture 1 and that Capture 1 is a leading application

    Not least, Phase One has done a great job with starting invention in medium format and staying on top. Think about losing the Hasselblad and the Contax 645 platforms and buying Mamiya to build a new MFD system.

    Best regards
    Erik
    Last edited by ErikKaffehr; 23rd May 2019 at 06:24.

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    Re: DTcommercialphoto.com article: "10 resons to choose MF"

    9) The most advanced features
    Like it’s autofocus?

    I would be surprised if the Fuji isn’t in another league compared to to the phase1.

    I await the political spin on that from the sales team.
    (E.U. Polling day here in the U.K. and a ruling party meltdown so my cynicism and bull detector is in overdrive)
    They are just tools for a job.

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    Re: DTcommercialphoto.com article: "10 resons to choose MF"

    Quote Originally Posted by MrSmith View Post
    Like it’s autofocus?

    I would be surprised if the Fuji isn’t in another league compared to to the phase1.

    I await the political spin on that from the sales team.
    (E.U. Polling day here in the U.K. and a ruling party meltdown so my cynicism and bull detector is in overdrive)
    Well, the XF has some pretty advanced features, like built in 'seismograph' and tools for tuning flash sync. I doubt the GFX from Fuji has features like that.

    The IQ backs have probably good live view, but the GFX has that live view in the viewfinder, phase detection across the whole sensor and eye focus.

    I guess that many shooters find Fuji GFX features more useful than Phase One features.

    Best regards
    Erik

    Just to say, good luck with EU related stuff!

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    Re: DTcommercialphoto.com article: "10 resons to choose MF"

    FYI, I am told DT does not sell Fuji only Phase or Hassy. That certainly is plenty of reason to launch the article as they must feel the heat from Fuji.

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    Re: DTcommercialphoto.com article: "10 resons to choose MF"

    We should go easy on Doug. If I remember right, he and his wife were due right around late May!


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    Re: DTcommercialphoto.com article: "10 resons to choose MF"

    Got the same email as everyone else. I am not at all surprised that neither Phase nor Hassy has anything to say about the Fuji (which appears to be a very fine and robust, but ugly camera). It’s Marketing 101 that you don’t talk about your competition, especially if (as with Phase) you don’t see them as competition. Further, we all know that Hassy’s S&M group never have anything to say. So no one should be surprised.

    I think the DT email was a lot of marketing speak, some of it factual and some of it hyperbole. The perspective thing was silly, but I don’t think the 16-bit color thing was a lie at all. It’s written in the present. And I do believe all current P1 products output 16-bit color in a format that is larger and “deeper” than the Fuji.

    The DT piece may have been a stalking horse authorized by Phase, maybe not. In any case, I think it was a small mistake. But not a big one. To me, the Fuji puts some pressure on Hassy to “deliver the goods” with their X1D successor announcement, still rumored to be this month. Depending on Hassy’s actual road map, the Fuji might be worrisome, though Hassy can afford to come in at a modest premium in exchange for its compactness and elegance. But as noted elsewhere, for Phase, I see real problems. 80-90% of the Phase (with bonus stuff that might be better), for 10-20% of the cost and just 2/3 the weight. That’s pretty impressive. I had an interesting discussion today about whether we might be seeing the start of a Phase/Fuji convergence. Fuji is already in C1. That would be interesting.

    Don’t get me wrong. I love my Phase and my Hassy. I have zero desire to switch and won’t. But the future “feels” different today, though my photography feels the same.
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    Re: DTcommercialphoto.com article: "10 resons to choose MF"

    Quote Originally Posted by drunkenspyder View Post
    It’s Marketing 101 that you don’t talk about your competition, especially if (as with Phase) you don’t see them as competition.
    huh.........

    This is their opening sentence :
    Quote Originally Posted by 10 reasons
    With the pending release of the Fujifilm GFX 100, there are a lot of questions .......
    And near the end:
    Quote Originally Posted by 10 reasons
    And finally, yes, the resolution. A 100 megapixel Fuji system provides a lot of detail, but it’s still not the most out there.
    So next to some outright misinformation (let's stay positive ) they seem to be violating Marketing 101 as well
    Last edited by pegelli; 23rd May 2019 at 23:09.

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    Re: DTcommercialphoto.com article: "10 resons to choose MF"

    Honestly, this Marketing "BS" is horrible to read... SO much miss information...

    Put pressure on Phase to finally get their act together and provide a firmware update with all promised features and missing features from the IQ3... AND don't trying to sell it as "Feature Update...."
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    Re: DTcommercialphoto.com article: "10 resons to choose MF"

    Quote Originally Posted by pegelli View Post
    huh.........

    This is their opening sentence :

    And near the end:


    So next to some outright misinformation (let's stay positive ) they seem to be violating Marketing 101 as well
    I think you missed my point, which was in response to those who noted that Phase and Hassy are officially silent. Marketing 101 says they should be, until they have something substantive to say in their own right, e.g., with prices or product. My only point was to suggest that Phase and Hassy’s silence made perfect sense from a marketing perspective.

    DT’s email may be an authorized Phase piece, but in coming from a dealer and sent to Phase or Phase-interested customers, it’s something of an under-the-radar communication. From the broader market’s perspective, neither Phase nor Hassy has had any reaction to the Fuji announcement (but I might have missed something), unless one includes the recent price drops on certain equipment. My point about Marketing 101 was very distinct from the content of DT’s mail.

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    Re: DTcommercialphoto.com article: "10 resons to choose MF"

    Quote Originally Posted by drunkenspyder View Post
    DT’s email may be an authorized Phase piece, but in coming from a dealer and sent to Phase or Phase-interested customers, it’s something of an under-the-radar communication.
    No arguements here, it's just that current "Phase and Phase-interested customers" are such a small group that IMHO the article makes very little impact on the market Fuji is going for.

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    Re: DTcommercialphoto.com article: "10 resons to choose MF"

    Quote Originally Posted by drunkenspyder View Post
    I think you missed my point
    I don't think so, wouldn't the same "Marketing 101" be valid for a dealer who only sells P1 and Hasselblad (and some TC stuff) and doesn't even carry Fuji?

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    Re: DTcommercialphoto.com article: "10 resons to choose MF"

    Quote Originally Posted by algrove View Post
    No arguements here, it's just that current "Phase and Phase-interested customers" are such a small group that IMHO the article makes very little impact on the market Fuji is going for.
    I got the email, don't know how I got on their email list. I don't live in the US and I don't consider myself a "Phase or Phase-interested customer". Maybe because I am a C1 user?

    But I'm not in the market for a Fuji either.

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    Re: DTcommercialphoto.com article: "10 resons to choose MF"

    Quote Originally Posted by pegelli View Post
    I got the email, don't know how I got on their email list. I don't live in the US and I don't consider myself a "Phase or Phase-interested customer". Maybe because I am a C1 user?

    But I'm not in the market for a Fuji either.
    If you are not a DT customer, but use C1 then as druken suggested it might have been a Phase sponsored email. Otherwise how could DT know that you were a C1 user?
    Last edited by algrove; 24th May 2019 at 14:46.

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    Re: DTcommercialphoto.com article: "10 resons to choose MF"

    Quote Originally Posted by algrove View Post
    If you are not a DT customer, but use C1 then as druken suggested it might have been a Phase sponsored email.
    I will only say that we - Capture Integration - have not been approached by Phase One to publish any sort of Fuji rebuttal. We sell both Phase One and Fuji GFX, so you would think that Phase One would be particularly keen on having us make some sort of statement. But we had no such request.


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    Re: DTcommercialphoto.com article: "10 resons to choose MF"

    First response by DT (in another thread), I'm glad the article will will be corrected

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    - Perspective is solely determined by camera-to-subject distance. This is commonly misunderstood – enough so that it slipped by in a recent post my team made; I'll have that corrected.

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    Re: DTcommercialphoto.com article: "10 resons to choose MF"

    Correct me if I'm wrong but it sort of seems like P1 and Hasselblad have already seen the writing on the wall and have been acting accordingly. The DF system seems like the least of what they do, and the H system though very mature I rarely see an ad for. Phase One seems *to me* to be shifting toward institutional needs, technical photography, and Capture One licensing. I mean can they really expect to keep selling $50k digital backs when even Nikon DSLRs fulfill the needs of 99% of studio applications with greater ease and fractional cost? At least from where I'm sitting digital imaging has long since reached a point where the upgrades are no longer critical. Up until this year I was still doing limited pro work with a D700. I have not found the need to upgrade from my D810, and I was shooting a job this weekend with an old AFi-II 7. All of these cameras produced beautiful images within their limitations. I look forward to upgrading to 2012 technology when I can afford a Credo back.

    If you were building a product studio and you could buy 2 GFX100s and every lens Fuji makes for the price of one IQ4 back...from where does the IQ4 justification come? The way I see it they either pivot to luxury where cost is the point, or away from professional photography where cost is nearly always an issue. That being said, i've been wrong about Phase for a while. I have said forever they need a $10k solution and they've never done it, and they seem to be doing ok. So what do I know? The last time I knew a lot about studio photography was when the P45+ was a hot item, and I thought it was exactly what my 500cm needs.

    ALSO I should point out that I know an editorial photographer who shoots P1, and says he made his money back renting it out and using it in less than a year. Jake Stangel is his name and he has a great Instagram presence. He prefers a WLF, end of story.

    Also I never thought I'd still be 90% film in 2019. But that's probably because I didn't follow my peers into shooting Target sunday circular stuff.

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    Re: DTcommercialphoto.com article: "10 resons to choose MF"

    Quote Originally Posted by pegelli View Post
    First response by DT (in another thread), I'm glad the article will will be corrected

    They didn't drop down to 9 reasons but made up a new one:

    Quote Originally Posted by DTcommercialphoto
    4) A New Perspective

    The big, bright optical viewfinder is a drastically different visual experience for the user as compared to the small constrained viewfinder of a small-format camera or the computer-screen-like EVF of a mirrorless camera. Once you’re used to composing within a spacious and visceral viewfinder it’s hard to live with anything less.
    Apparently they now want to restart the flame war betwen OVF and EVF supporters

    Let me just say that I'm not convinced this is a valid argument and leave it at that

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    Re: DTcommercialphoto.com article: "10 resons to choose MF"

    Quote Originally Posted by ErikKaffehr View Post
    ...

    Not least, Phase One has done a great job with starting invention in medium format and staying on top. Think about losing the Hasselblad and the Contax 645 platforms and buying Mamiya to build a new MFD system.

    Best regards
    Erik
    Quote Originally Posted by pegelli View Post
    ...

    Apparently they now want to restart the flame war betwen OVF and EVF supporters

    Let me just say that I'm not convinced this is a valid argument and leave it at that
    Just adding two .02 for a .04 total

    1. PhaseOne did a great job in MF, I have been using their backs and cameras back in the day (P45+, P65+), but IMHO everything they did was just evolutionary, never conceptually revolutionary or innovative. Conceptually, all they did was taking the old MF camera concept and replacing film with a sensor. Everything else remained the same, and still is the same now. Hasselblad did the exact same thing with their H line. Also IMHO, Phase did so with better results than Hassy, but conceptually I don't see any invention or innovation with neither of them there - just repeating the old MF film concept concept and improving as technology improved, that's it.

    On the other hand, Hasselblad with the X1D and Fuji with the GFX applied some invention and innovation to the MF concept. Again, results are a different business - I am talking concept and innovation here - and arguably conceptually the X1D was a game changer as far as applying the advantages of digital to MF and making into a truly small, light and portable MF system, the Fuji got close but slightly less so: system is still bulky, all the GFX cameras have lots of bits and pieces, I'd say that GFX cameras never went "all-in" and are in-between-old-MF-and-X1D-modular-contraptions, etc.

    2. EFV vs OVF, IMHO, depends only on your application. As I wrote in my X1D review, and in many articles before that (i.e. SL review) I believe that for landscape photography the EVF is THE most important change since the advent of digital, with so many advantages over a OVF that it's not even funny. Of course, other applications will end up in a completely different evaluation of the benefits of the one vs the other, but arguing that an OVF, as good as it might be, is "A new perspective" is probably a worse fix than the original.

    Best regards,

    Vieri
    Vieri Bottazzini
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    Re: DTcommercialphoto.com article: "10 resons to choose MF"

    Quote Originally Posted by vieri View Post
    Just adding two .02 for a .04 total

    1. PhaseOne did a great job in MF, I have been using their backs and cameras back in the day (P45+, P65+), but IMHO everything they did was just evolutionary, never conceptually revolutionary or innovative. Conceptually, all they did was taking the old MF camera concept and replacing film with a sensor. Everything else remained the same, and still is the same now. Hasselblad did the exact same thing with their H line. Also IMHO, Phase did so with better results than Hassy, but conceptually I don't see any invention or innovation with neither of them there - just repeating the old MF film concept concept and improving as technology improved, that's it.

    On the other hand, Hasselblad with the X1D and Fuji with the GFX applied some invention and innovation to the MF concept. Again, results are a different business - I am talking concept and innovation here - and arguably conceptually the X1D was a game changer as far as applying the advantages of digital to MF and making into a truly small, light and portable MF system, the Fuji got close but slightly less so: system is still bulky, all the GFX cameras have lots of bits and pieces, I'd say that GFX cameras never went "all-in" and are in-between-old-MF-and-X1D-modular-contraptions, etc.

    2. EFV vs OVF, IMHO, depends only on your application. As I wrote in my X1D review, and in many articles before that (i.e. SL review) I believe that for landscape photography the EVF is THE most important change since the advent of digital, with so many advantages over a OVF that it's not even funny. Of course, other applications will end up in a completely different evaluation of the benefits of the one vs the other, but arguing that an OVF, as good as it might be, is "A new perspective" is probably a worse fix than the original.

    Best regards,

    Vieri
    I'll chime inn here with my two uninformed cents.

    I have used every format from APS-C to 8x10 in my 12 years of photography. The whole EVF vs OFV argument remains quite silly to me, on this we agree. If you want to take advantage of a bigger OFV you'll need a lope, it's that simple. With an EVF that is integrated.

    The other thing which Fuji and Hasselblad has a strong advantage with is the price. How much do you have to pay for a 100mpx P1 back without the camera? (Too much for me to even consider it). Now with the release of the Fuji GFX 100, it seems entirely more possible that I will be moving into MF territory.

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