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Thread: Fuji GFX 100

  1. #201
    Senior Member ErikKaffehr's Avatar
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    Re: Fuji GFX 100

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    +1, great light, colors, and composition.
    Thanks a lot!

  2. #202
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    Re: Fuji GFX 100

    Quote Originally Posted by algrove View Post
    This thread has gone off song for me.
    Seconded.

    Much as I find the current diversion fascinating, and Erik’s photo lovely, I can’t help but think this thread could do with a bit of mod clean-up with the non-Fuji GFX 100 technical discussion split off into a different thread.

    I click on this thread hoping to read the latest news and updates on this exciting new camera system.

    Perhaps the offer of a $15 PayPal contribution to the forum’s coffers will be sufficient motivation for a mod to step in and tidy things up?

    (But please don’t lose the aside - there is valuable and interesting content here.)

    Kind regards,


    Gerald.
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  3. #203
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    Re: Fuji GFX 100

    this why i posted this..to hopefully get back on track

    https://youtu.be/AgwlbI4gE18

  4. #204
    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
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    Re: Fuji GFX 100

    Quote Originally Posted by Satrycon View Post
    this why i posted this..to hopefully get back on track

    https://youtu.be/AgwlbI4gE18

    Thanks for this. I'm a BTS junkie for camera manufacturers.

    When Ueno Takashi discusses the "next camera", and he spells out the choices, full frame 35mm or medium format, it clicked for me. Canon. Nikon. Sony. These three companies dominate the professional camera market, in terms of market share. But these are not medium format companies, have never produced prominent cameras in a medium format segment. Fuji has. It totally made sense for them to bypass 35mm full frame.


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  5. #205
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    Re: Fuji GFX 100

    i like how they really try to explain everything... the Engineer writing the the camera software looked a bit stressed too



    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix View Post
    Thanks for this. I'm a BTS junkie for camera manufacturers.

    When Ueno Takashi discusses the "next camera", and he spells out the choices, full frame 35mm or medium format, it clicked for me. Canon. Nikon. Sony. These three companies dominate the professional camera market, in terms of market share. But these are not medium format companies, have never produced prominent cameras in a medium format segment. Fuji has. It totally made sense for them to bypass 35mm full frame.


    Steve Hendrix/CI

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    Re: Fuji GFX 100

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    Seconded.

    Much as I find the current diversion fascinating, and Erik’s photo lovely, I can’t help but think this thread could do with a bit of mod clean-up with the non-Fuji GFX 100 technical discussion split off into a different thread.

    I click on this thread hoping to read the latest news and updates on this exciting new camera system.

    Perhaps the offer of a $15 PayPal contribution to the forum’s coffers will be sufficient motivation for a mod to step in and tidy things up?

    (But please don’t lose the aside - there is valuable and interesting content here.)

    Kind regards,


    Gerald.
    +1 regarding splitting the technical discussion off onto another thread or even sub-forum

    Regardless of the forum, I tire of clicking on threads I assume to be gear threads only to find the thread has gone off the rails to talk of things like 14 bits vs. 16 bits, well capacity, and mathematical formulas.

    My intention is not to demean the technical discussion in any way, it is valuable and has merit, I'd just rather it be separated from the discussion of the gear itself. Just my two cents.
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  7. #207
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    Re: Fuji GFX 100

    And now we have added thread moderation discussion to this thread :-).
    I have never seen a thread in any photo forum that has not diverged heavily, especially if longer than 10 posts.
    IMO, the only way to prevent that would be to limit a thread to something like 50 posts.

  8. #208
    Senior Member ErikKaffehr's Avatar
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    Re: Fuji GFX 100

    Hi,

    I am not sure about this. Historically, Phase One made a lot of noise about 16-bit data path. But, realistically, the old CCD backs like my P45+ were more like 12 EV in dynamic range which means that there was just 12 bits worth of data and barely that.

    As a matter of fact, the IQ 180 also sported just below 12 EV dynamic range, at least as measured by DxO-mark. So the CCD backs delivered like 12 bit data in a 16 bit format.

    But, behold! Phase One engineers were smart enough to put those 12 EV of DR in a 14 bit data file that was expanded to 16 bit when opened in a raw processor.

    When the IQ 3100 MP arrived, there was for the first time a sensor that achieved more than 14EV of DR on the pixel level. That made for a meaningful 16-bit file. So, for the IQ 3100 MP, Phase one invented a new file format that actually contained 16 bit data.

    With the arrival of the 150 MP sensor, Sony made the pixels smaller. At this time, it is not very clear if per pixel DR on the Sony 54x41 mm 150 MP sensor is capable of a DR in excess of 14 bits per pixel. It seems that the 100 MP cousine at 44x33 mm size is well served by 14 bits.

    I am pretty sure that engineers make the right decisions, left on their own. But engineers always need to satisfy marketing.

    I used to work with computer makers like SGI (Silicon Graphics). SGI had some interesting features like CC-NUMA, that actually made some sense to engineers.

    But, no engineer ever could explain while SGI would charge 2k$US US for a 200$ DVD drive, especially so as SGI was delivering the operating system on 15 CDs. would they deliver the OS on DVD, it would save like 4-8 man hours and spending 2K$US on a DVD may make sense.

    For some reasons, SGI killed itself. The way things were, my company shifted to Windows and Linux. Conversion costs were horrible. It may have made business sense to stay with SGI, or it may not. But, charging 2k$US for a DVD drive was just not reasonable. No engineer would be able to defend it.

    In the long run, being honest may be a good policy. Argue for the real benefits, if there are some.

    Best regards
    Erik




    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix View Post
    Yes, and it is important to note that engineers are not marketers, and while they may do a fantastic job of extracting maximum quality, marketing does not always do a great job of showing that quality to potential purchasers (which is their job). Ultimately, this is likely because the differences can often be subtle, and subtle is not an easy sell.

    The thing about the quantitative data state and the human visual state is that there is a lot in between that happens to the quantitative data that presents it to the human eye to visualize, and this takes numerous forms, ink on paper (and the myriad options and variations that entails), pixels on a display, etc. If the entirety of superior image quality (noise, dynamic range, color reproduction, rendering, etc.) can be viewed at the end result stage, then that is what matters. I'm saying that it may be too subtle for marketing to get interested in telling that difficult story.

    Yes, engineers must continue to develop. The key is in how much extra quality can they extract from a 16 bit image from the same sensor vs a 14 bit image that will matter to the end user. The fact that it is a subtle difference says they have done their job well with a high quality device even at 14 bit. But at the very high end of imaging, those small differences can and should matter. In any event, given a choice, I'll choose the higher quality image, even if it is just a teensie weensie bit. I'm not interested in shooting at a faster capture rate (some may be in certain situations) or worried about optimizing the amount of hard drive space I have.

    The nice thing is that anyone who has a device capable of generating both 14 bit and 16 bit files is capable of viewing the results themselves and making a choice (though that does not guarantee they will see or appreciate the differences).


    Steve Hendrix

  9. #209
    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
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    Re: Fuji GFX 100

    Quote Originally Posted by ErikKaffehr View Post
    Hi,

    I am not sure about this. Historically, Phase One made a lot of noise about 16-bit data path. But, realistically, the old CCD backs like my P45+ were more like 12 EV in dynamic range which means that there was just 12 bits worth of data and barely that.

    As a matter of fact, the IQ 180 also sported just below 12 EV dynamic range, at least as measured by DxO-mark. So the CCD backs delivered like 12 bit data in a 16 bit format.

    But, behold! Phase One engineers were smart enough to put those 12 EV of DR in a 14 bit data file that was expanded to 16 bit when opened in a raw processor.

    When the IQ 3100 MP arrived, there was for the first time a sensor that achieved more than 14EV of DR on the pixel level. That made for a meaningful 16-bit file. So, for the IQ 3100 MP, Phase one invented a new file format that actually contained 16 bit data.

    With the arrival of the 150 MP sensor, Sony made the pixels smaller. At this time, it is not very clear if per pixel DR on the Sony 54x41 mm 150 MP sensor is capable of a DR in excess of 14 bits per pixel. It seems that the 100 MP cousine at 44x33 mm size is well served by 14 bits.

    I am pretty sure that engineers make the right decisions, left on their own. But engineers always need to satisfy marketing.

    I used to work with computer makers like SGI (Silicon Graphics). SGI had some interesting features like CC-NUMA, that actually made some sense to engineers.

    But, no engineer ever could explain while SGI would charge 2k$US US for a 200$ DVD drive, especially so as SGI was delivering the operating system on 15 CDs. would they deliver the OS on DVD, it would save like 4-8 man hours and spending 2K$US on a DVD may make sense.

    For some reasons, SGI killed itself. The way things were, my company shifted to Windows and Linux. Conversion costs were horrible. It may have made business sense to stay with SGI, or it may not. But, charging 2k$US for a DVD drive was just not reasonable. No engineer would be able to defend it.

    In the long run, being honest may be a good policy. Argue for the real benefits, if there are some.

    Best regards
    Erik

    Anyway, I'm not going to continue to discuss bit depth theory and detail on this thread. Enough have complained that a separate "16 Bit, Let's Talk It out" thread totally makes sense. Because it is not limited to the Fuji GFX 100 anyway.

    So .... looks like about 13 more days before ship time. I can't wait to get our demo in our hands. I'm interested to know what first projects those who have ordered have in mind for use with the Fuji GFX 100?


    Steve Hendrix/CI
    Last edited by Steve Hendrix; 14th June 2019 at 08:52.
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  10. #210
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    Re: Fuji GFX 100

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix View Post
    Anyway, I'm not going to continue to discuss bit depth theory and detail on this thread. Enough have complained that a separate "16 Bit, Let's Talk It out" thread totally makes sense. Because it is not limited to the Fuji GFX 100 anyway.

    So .... looks like about 13 more days before ship time. I can't wait to get our demo in our hands. I'm interested to know what first projects those who have ordered have in mind for use with the Fuji GFX 100?


    Steve Hendrix/CI
    I am with you, Steve! Can't wait to see what others will be shooting! I have no stake in the Fuji camp and never will, just a personal preference and suttuation.

    As a retired engineer in a totally different field, I am interested in the actual Photography aspects, not test shots, not engineering discussions and certainly not anything boring, btdt for over 40 years! So, yes, I am hoping to see some very good images posted beginning in 13 days or so. !!!
    Dave (GT)

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    Re: Fuji GFX 100

    Ahh, we're back to something I understand and care about, what interesting things will people be doing with this camera, nice!

    I have my name on 1 for late June, I will be getting it out here to Iraq for a project I'm working on with orphans which will be an exhibition in Baghdad to raise awareness for their plight, I will keep the 50s though for sure, although I'm expecting the 100 to be better in every way that's meaningful for me.

    Looking forward to seeing what others will be doing with theirs, not long to wait.

    Mat
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  12. #212
    Senior Member ErikKaffehr's Avatar
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    Re: Fuji GFX 100

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    When taking an image I naively assume there must be a number of more important considerations than worrying about 14 or 16 bit capture, no?
    Hi Karl-Heinz,

    I think it would be the case.

    But, historically, having 16 bit data was one of the key advantages purported for medium format. Lesser cameras like DSLRs and Fuji GFX 50 were regarded lesser devices. Even today, Hasselblad is still talking about 16-bit color although using the same technology as Fuji GFX 50.

    Now, we are in an odd situation. The Fuji GFX 100 has 16-bit readout, although it seems to have little merit according to Bill Claff. Hasselblad has 14 bits readout on the X1D and the 50C backs. Testers often mention 16 bits as an advantage.

    So, it is a bit of false marketing, I object to that. Just to say, I object strongly.

    The other question is, are those 16 bits relevant when taking a photograph? As they mostly don't exist, nor they are relevant, that would no be the case. In most cases DR is not that important. Many of us have been shooting slide film with something like 5EV of DR and got away with great images.

    The situation when DR matters is when we expose to protect highlights and push detail in the darks. But, protecting highlights means that we will have more noise due to shot noise. Pushing the shadows makes only sense to some level.



    In this image the darks need to be dark. Pushing them to hard would just make the image dull.

    I would say that the dynamic range used in that image is around nine EV:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Which essentially means that it could be taken using any modern camera, including the Canon 5Ds or my Phase One P45+ back.

    Now, it could be argued that it would be possible to expose for the moon:


    But, that would just give you a lot of shot noise with readout noise added. Resolving the noise with two more bits would be of little help.

    If we need the ultimate DR, we can always resort to HDR techniques. But that leaves us with an image that is very difficult to display or print.

    The image I use in this demo is an example. I want to print it, but it is very hard to find a good balance between keeping detail and having a decent level of contrast, especially on matte paper.

    Best regards
    Erik
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    Re: Fuji GFX 100

    One of my first projects, other than configuring, getting up to speed with muscle memory, fun/test shooting.... my first real project will be photographing Frank Lloyd Wright’s Fallingwater the first week in September for several days - after a drive across country from CA, photographing along the way in Utah (Zion, Escalante, Burr Trail), Colorado and Northwestern Michigan (Grand Traverse Peninsula) and our cabin on Island Lake. Woopie! I just shut down my consulting business after almost 20 years, “after” I’d already retired (youngish)... so this is the “year of being free and doing my own photography.” The GFX 100 will be the frosting on the cake.

    Rand


    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix View Post
    . . .

    So .... looks like about 13 more days before ship time. I can't wait to get our demo in our hands. I'm interested to know what first projects those who have ordered have in mind for use with the Fuji GFX 100?


    Steve Hendrix/CI
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  14. #214
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    Re: Fuji GFX 100

    Quote Originally Posted by Rand47 View Post
    One of my first projects, other than configuring, getting up to speed with muscle memory, fun/test shooting.... my first real project will be photographing Frank Lloyd Wright’s Fallingwater the first week in September for several days - after a drive across country from CA, photographing along the way in Utah (Zion, Escalante, Burr Trail), Colorado and Northwestern Michigan (Grand Traverse Peninsula) and our cabin on Island Lake. Woopie! I just shut down my consulting business after almost 20 years, “after” I’d already retired (youngish)... so this is the “year of being free and doing my own photography.” The GFX 100 will be the frosting on the cake.

    Rand

    Good luck Rand. Enjoy! I know you will.
    With best regards, K-H.
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    Re: Fuji GFX 100

    You can see the full 16 bits in GIMP. If you convert to 32 bit then PhotoShop will be able to use all 16 bits.

    Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Boinger View Post

    Another interesting note I found is Photoshop limits its 16 bit values to 0-32,768.

    So in Photoshop you are essentially limited to a 15 bit file.

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    Re: Fuji GFX 100

    I went to the Fuji “hands on” with the GFX 100 at Camera West in Rancho Mirage, CA, yesterday afternoon. Spent a couple of hours configuring and then shooting with a pre-production (but pretty close to final) unit.

    I know people throw about the “game-changer” word a lot these days - but I think this camera deserves the appellation. I was shooting inside the shop at 1/10th of a second, hand held, and getting RAZOR sharp images. The idea of shooting “off hand” with a medium format camera indoors in low light is almost weird feeling. Ergos are better than my GFX 50s w/ grip. Camera is actually thinner, albeit a tiny bit wider. So close in height as to be not worth mentioning (50s w/ grip). Vertical grip has received some questioning remarks re no “rubberized” stuff on it. I wondered myself. In reality the bottom of the body does have a large patch of rubberized material, and the “paint” of the grip is more tactile than it appears in photos. To wit: the vertical grip is fine. It’s profile “in the hand” is a little different than the horizontal grip, but muscle memory will take care of that in no time at all.

    Shutter release is “leaf spring” type like the Fuji X-H1, but a little less “hair-trigger” - so in my opinion about perfect. Shutter is “quiet for a medium format camera.” Sub monitor LCD is very customizable and big enough to see easily even for an old dude with glasses (that would be me). The exposure comp button can be set to “switch” mode (in addition to “press and hold”) so that one can just turn it on and have the rear sub-dial (command wheel) be permanently EC control. That’s my preference since I shoot mainly aperture priority and tweak exposure w/ EC. Lots of customizable buttons. The touch LCD display can be almost limitlessly configured to work like the D-pad buttons that are missing on this camera. Touch implementation seems better than my X-H1.

    Camera does have Bluetooth, which allows the Fuji remote phone app to have a “shutter release” only function (with a lock for long exposure work). Brilliant and makes your phone a truly functional remote release. Also for wired release, they put the 2.5mm jack on the right side (facing the back of the camera). “What a concept.” LOL Every other camera I’ve owned has all the ports under a hatch on the left side where it gets trapped under the L-plate and attaching a wired remote becomes a “thread the needle” through some small hole or slot and a total PITA. No more!

    It almost goes without saying that the detail captured is absolutely stunning, even compared to my GFX 50s.

    I came away more anxious and excited than before. The Fuji reps there said that Fuji has “way underestimated” the initial demand for the body and that known pre-orders exceeded their expectations “by a bunch.” Said that if one isn’t near the top on someone’s pre-order list, “It might be a while until they get one.”

    That’s it...

    Rand
    Last edited by Rand47; 18th June 2019 at 13:23.
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  18. #218
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    Re: Fuji GFX 100


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    Re: Fuji GFX 100

    Quote Originally Posted by Satrycon View Post
    Interesting use as well.

    Slap on a cage so you can add on all those lovely essentials required for shooting video professionally, then don't actually attach any accessories, and shoot in portrait.

    FWIW, it's the ALPA XO.
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    Re: Fuji GFX 100

    There will be a made in China version with the same functionality at 1/4 of the price soon. (Probably)
    They are just tools for a job.

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    Re: Fuji GFX 100

    finally..more pictures from the gfx100

    https://www.flickr.com/groups/[email protected]/pool/

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    Re: Fuji GFX 100

    There is a lot of talk about sticking it on the back of a tech cam via the Alpa adapter or some other piece of hardware.

    I just don't get why anyone would do this. If you want a tech cam get a dedicated modular back, P1 or Leaf

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    Re: Fuji GFX 100

    Quote Originally Posted by DougDolde View Post
    There is a lot of talk about sticking it on the back of a tech cam via the Alpa adapter or some other piece of hardware.

    I just don't get why anyone would do this. If you want a tech cam get a dedicated modular back, P1 or Leaf
    I accept that you don't get it, but as one who uses both a tech cam (Cambo WDS) and a view camera (Toyo VX23D) with an A7R body instead of a dedicated back -- and happily so, I might add! -- I have to say it makes perfect sense to me.

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    Re: Fuji GFX 100

    Quote Originally Posted by DougDolde View Post
    There is a lot of talk about sticking it on the back of a tech cam via the Alpa adapter or some other piece of hardware.

    I just don't get why anyone would do this. If you want a tech cam get a dedicated modular back, P1 or Leaf
    pretty simple really, not that hard of a concept to grasp. Obviously they want to use it as a normal system some of the time, as well as the flexibility of using it on a tech. Pretty much like many of us do with a full Phase XF system and glass as well as a tech camera to use the DB on. I use the tech setup when I can, but if it’s windy or shooting in sketchy conditions (rain, surf, waterfall mist) I stay with the XF. Also if I need to work fast because of the circumstances, I’ll opt for the XF, with the 40-80 zoom.
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    Re: Fuji GFX 100

    Quote Originally Posted by Satrycon View Post
    finally..more pictures from the gfx100

    https://www.flickr.com/groups/[email protected]/pool/
    I love the super-fortress image!
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    Re: Fuji GFX 100

    Quote Originally Posted by ErikKaffehr View Post

    The other question is, are those 16 bits relevant when taking a photograph? As they mostly don't exist, nor they are relevant, that would no be the case. In most cases DR is not that important. Many of us have been shooting slide film with something like 5EV of DR and got away with great images.

    The situation when DR matters is when we expose to protect highlights and push detail in the darks. But, protecting highlights means that we will have more noise due to shot noise. Pushing the shadows makes only sense to some level.

    If we need the ultimate DR, we can always resort to HDR techniques. But that leaves us with an image that is very difficult to display or print.
    I specialize in shooting interiors. I do not have the luxury of choosing what season, or even what time of day that I do this. My clients want window views. Imagine shooting the inside of a massive cave so that it is brightly exposed inside. Now imagine getting the view outside of the tiny entrance properly exposed in the same photo. On a hot summer day. That is most homes. (Most rooms will not have an unobstructed window on more than one wall.)

    To make this happen involves HDR (technically exposure fusion) and several flash frames. The HDR is crushed nearly 100% both in highlights and shadows. The flash frames are blended to achieve a reasonable window exposure. All of this is often still not enough to get a pleasant view outside.

    My typical commission might involve 10-15 such images, but I've previously shot volume HDR and had to process ~120 HDRs per night. The prospect of approaching a useful level of DR in one frame becomes almost sexual under this circumstance.

    Even when shooting exteriors, front facades immersed in shadow or the areas beneath any overhang must be perfectly exposed--while maintaining a blue sky. Although this is much easier to achieve in post than window views.

    My point is certain genres, at least mine, must absolutely use every milli-stop of DR we can squeeze out. I will test 16-bit files with the GFX100, but I'm not expecting any noticeable difference.
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    Re: Fuji GFX 100

    Quote Originally Posted by engardeknave View Post
    I specialize in shooting interiors. I do not have the luxury of choosing what season, or even what time of day that I do this. My clients want window views. Imagine shooting the inside of a massive cave so that it is brightly exposed inside. Now imagine getting the view outside of the tiny entrance properly exposed in the same photo. On a hot summer day. That is most homes. (Most rooms will not have an unobstructed window on more than one wall.)

    To make this happen involves HDR (technically exposure fusion) and several flash frames. The HDR is crushed nearly 100% both in highlights and shadows. The flash frames are blended to achieve a reasonable window exposure. All of this is often still not enough to get a pleasant view outside.

    My typical commission might involve 10-15 such images, but I've previously shot volume HDR and had to process ~120 HDRs per night. The prospect of approaching a useful level of DR in one frame becomes almost sexual under this circumstance.

    Even when shooting exteriors, front facades immersed in shadow or the areas beneath any overhang must be perfectly exposed--while maintaining a blue sky. Although this is much easier to achieve in post than window views.

    My point is certain genres, at least mine, must absolutely use every milli-stop of DR we can squeeze out. I will test 16-bit files with the GFX100, but I'm not expecting any noticeable difference.
    I like your second image.
    The first one looks way to light for my eyes.
    With best regards, K-H.

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