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Fuji GFX 100

gerald.d

Well-known member
This thread has gone off song for me.
Seconded.

Much as I find the current diversion fascinating, and Erik’s photo lovely, I can’t help but think this thread could do with a bit of mod clean-up with the non-Fuji GFX 100 technical discussion split off into a different thread.

I click on this thread hoping to read the latest news and updates on this exciting new camera system.

Perhaps the offer of a $15 PayPal contribution to the forum’s coffers will be sufficient motivation for a mod to step in and tidy things up?

(But please don’t lose the aside - there is valuable and interesting content here.)

Kind regards,


Gerald.
 

Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
this why i posted this..to hopefully get back on track ;)

https://youtu.be/AgwlbI4gE18

Thanks for this. I'm a BTS junkie for camera manufacturers.

When Ueno Takashi discusses the "next camera", and he spells out the choices, full frame 35mm or medium format, it clicked for me. Canon. Nikon. Sony. These three companies dominate the professional camera market, in terms of market share. But these are not medium format companies, have never produced prominent cameras in a medium format segment. Fuji has. It totally made sense for them to bypass 35mm full frame.


Steve Hendrix/CI
 

Satrycon

Well-known member
i like how they really try to explain everything... the Engineer writing the the camera software looked a bit stressed too ;)



Thanks for this. I'm a BTS junkie for camera manufacturers.

When Ueno Takashi discusses the "next camera", and he spells out the choices, full frame 35mm or medium format, it clicked for me. Canon. Nikon. Sony. These three companies dominate the professional camera market, in terms of market share. But these are not medium format companies, have never produced prominent cameras in a medium format segment. Fuji has. It totally made sense for them to bypass 35mm full frame.


Steve Hendrix/CI
 

tcdeveau

Well-known member
Seconded.

Much as I find the current diversion fascinating, and Erik’s photo lovely, I can’t help but think this thread could do with a bit of mod clean-up with the non-Fuji GFX 100 technical discussion split off into a different thread.

I click on this thread hoping to read the latest news and updates on this exciting new camera system.

Perhaps the offer of a $15 PayPal contribution to the forum’s coffers will be sufficient motivation for a mod to step in and tidy things up?

(But please don’t lose the aside - there is valuable and interesting content here.)

Kind regards,


Gerald.
+1 regarding splitting the technical discussion off onto another thread or even sub-forum

Regardless of the forum, I tire of clicking on threads I assume to be gear threads only to find the thread has gone off the rails to talk of things like 14 bits vs. 16 bits, well capacity, and mathematical formulas.

My intention is not to demean the technical discussion in any way, it is valuable and has merit, I'd just rather it be separated from the discussion of the gear itself. Just my two cents.
 

SrMphoto

Well-known member
And now we have added thread moderation discussion to this thread :).
I have never seen a thread in any photo forum that has not diverged heavily, especially if longer than 10 posts.
IMO, the only way to prevent that would be to limit a thread to something like 50 posts.
 

ErikKaffehr

Well-known member
Hi,

I am not sure about this. Historically, Phase One made a lot of noise about 16-bit data path. But, realistically, the old CCD backs like my P45+ were more like 12 EV in dynamic range which means that there was just 12 bits worth of data and barely that.

As a matter of fact, the IQ 180 also sported just below 12 EV dynamic range, at least as measured by DxO-mark. So the CCD backs delivered like 12 bit data in a 16 bit format.

But, behold! Phase One engineers were smart enough to put those 12 EV of DR in a 14 bit data file that was expanded to 16 bit when opened in a raw processor.

When the IQ 3100 MP arrived, there was for the first time a sensor that achieved more than 14EV of DR on the pixel level. That made for a meaningful 16-bit file. So, for the IQ 3100 MP, Phase one invented a new file format that actually contained 16 bit data.

With the arrival of the 150 MP sensor, Sony made the pixels smaller. At this time, it is not very clear if per pixel DR on the Sony 54x41 mm 150 MP sensor is capable of a DR in excess of 14 bits per pixel. It seems that the 100 MP cousine at 44x33 mm size is well served by 14 bits.

I am pretty sure that engineers make the right decisions, left on their own. But engineers always need to satisfy marketing.

I used to work with computer makers like SGI (Silicon Graphics). SGI had some interesting features like CC-NUMA, that actually made some sense to engineers.

But, no engineer ever could explain while SGI would charge 2k$US US for a 200$ DVD drive, especially so as SGI was delivering the operating system on 15 CDs. would they deliver the OS on DVD, it would save like 4-8 man hours and spending 2K$US on a DVD may make sense.

For some reasons, SGI killed itself. The way things were, my company shifted to Windows and Linux. Conversion costs were horrible. It may have made business sense to stay with SGI, or it may not. But, charging 2k$US for a DVD drive was just not reasonable. No engineer would be able to defend it.

In the long run, being honest may be a good policy. Argue for the real benefits, if there are some.

Best regards
Erik




Yes, and it is important to note that engineers are not marketers, and while they may do a fantastic job of extracting maximum quality, marketing does not always do a great job of showing that quality to potential purchasers (which is their job). Ultimately, this is likely because the differences can often be subtle, and subtle is not an easy sell.

The thing about the quantitative data state and the human visual state is that there is a lot in between that happens to the quantitative data that presents it to the human eye to visualize, and this takes numerous forms, ink on paper (and the myriad options and variations that entails), pixels on a display, etc. If the entirety of superior image quality (noise, dynamic range, color reproduction, rendering, etc.) can be viewed at the end result stage, then that is what matters. I'm saying that it may be too subtle for marketing to get interested in telling that difficult story.

Yes, engineers must continue to develop. The key is in how much extra quality can they extract from a 16 bit image from the same sensor vs a 14 bit image that will matter to the end user. The fact that it is a subtle difference says they have done their job well with a high quality device even at 14 bit. But at the very high end of imaging, those small differences can and should matter. In any event, given a choice, I'll choose the higher quality image, even if it is just a teensie weensie bit. I'm not interested in shooting at a faster capture rate (some may be in certain situations) or worried about optimizing the amount of hard drive space I have.

The nice thing is that anyone who has a device capable of generating both 14 bit and 16 bit files is capable of viewing the results themselves and making a choice (though that does not guarantee they will see or appreciate the differences).


Steve Hendrix
 

Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
Hi,

I am not sure about this. Historically, Phase One made a lot of noise about 16-bit data path. But, realistically, the old CCD backs like my P45+ were more like 12 EV in dynamic range which means that there was just 12 bits worth of data and barely that.

As a matter of fact, the IQ 180 also sported just below 12 EV dynamic range, at least as measured by DxO-mark. So the CCD backs delivered like 12 bit data in a 16 bit format.

But, behold! Phase One engineers were smart enough to put those 12 EV of DR in a 14 bit data file that was expanded to 16 bit when opened in a raw processor.

When the IQ 3100 MP arrived, there was for the first time a sensor that achieved more than 14EV of DR on the pixel level. That made for a meaningful 16-bit file. So, for the IQ 3100 MP, Phase one invented a new file format that actually contained 16 bit data.

With the arrival of the 150 MP sensor, Sony made the pixels smaller. At this time, it is not very clear if per pixel DR on the Sony 54x41 mm 150 MP sensor is capable of a DR in excess of 14 bits per pixel. It seems that the 100 MP cousine at 44x33 mm size is well served by 14 bits.

I am pretty sure that engineers make the right decisions, left on their own. But engineers always need to satisfy marketing.

I used to work with computer makers like SGI (Silicon Graphics). SGI had some interesting features like CC-NUMA, that actually made some sense to engineers.

But, no engineer ever could explain while SGI would charge 2k$US US for a 200$ DVD drive, especially so as SGI was delivering the operating system on 15 CDs. would they deliver the OS on DVD, it would save like 4-8 man hours and spending 2K$US on a DVD may make sense.

For some reasons, SGI killed itself. The way things were, my company shifted to Windows and Linux. Conversion costs were horrible. It may have made business sense to stay with SGI, or it may not. But, charging 2k$US for a DVD drive was just not reasonable. No engineer would be able to defend it.

In the long run, being honest may be a good policy. Argue for the real benefits, if there are some.

Best regards
Erik

Anyway, I'm not going to continue to discuss bit depth theory and detail on this thread. Enough have complained that a separate "16 Bit, Let's Talk It out" thread totally makes sense. Because it is not limited to the Fuji GFX 100 anyway.

So .... looks like about 13 more days before ship time. I can't wait to get our demo in our hands. I'm interested to know what first projects those who have ordered have in mind for use with the Fuji GFX 100?


Steve Hendrix/CI
 
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dave.gt

Well-known member
Anyway, I'm not going to continue to discuss bit depth theory and detail on this thread. Enough have complained that a separate "16 Bit, Let's Talk It out" thread totally makes sense. Because it is not limited to the Fuji GFX 100 anyway.

So .... looks like about 13 more days before ship time. I can't wait to get our demo in our hands. I'm interested to know what first projects those who have ordered have in mind for use with the Fuji GFX 100?


Steve Hendrix/CI
I am with you, Steve! Can't wait to see what others will be shooting! I have no stake in the Fuji camp and never will, just a personal preference and suttuation.

As a retired engineer in a totally different field, I am interested in the actual Photography aspects, not test shots, not engineering discussions and certainly not anything boring, btdt for over 40 years! So, yes, I am hoping to see some very good images posted beginning in 13 days or so. !!!:thumbup:
 
M

mjr

Guest
Ahh, we're back to something I understand and care about, what interesting things will people be doing with this camera, nice!

I have my name on 1 for late June, I will be getting it out here to Iraq for a project I'm working on with orphans which will be an exhibition in Baghdad to raise awareness for their plight, I will keep the 50s though for sure, although I'm expecting the 100 to be better in every way that's meaningful for me.

Looking forward to seeing what others will be doing with theirs, not long to wait.

Mat
 

ErikKaffehr

Well-known member
When taking an image I naively assume there must be a number of more important considerations than worrying about 14 or 16 bit capture, no? :facesmack:
Hi Karl-Heinz,

I think it would be the case.

But, historically, having 16 bit data was one of the key advantages purported for medium format. Lesser cameras like DSLRs and Fuji GFX 50 were regarded lesser devices. Even today, Hasselblad is still talking about 16-bit color although using the same technology as Fuji GFX 50.

Now, we are in an odd situation. The Fuji GFX 100 has 16-bit readout, although it seems to have little merit according to Bill Claff. Hasselblad has 14 bits readout on the X1D and the 50C backs. Testers often mention 16 bits as an advantage.

So, it is a bit of false marketing, I object to that. Just to say, I object strongly.

The other question is, are those 16 bits relevant when taking a photograph? As they mostly don't exist, nor they are relevant, that would no be the case. In most cases DR is not that important. Many of us have been shooting slide film with something like 5EV of DR and got away with great images.

The situation when DR matters is when we expose to protect highlights and push detail in the darks. But, protecting highlights means that we will have more noise due to shot noise. Pushing the shadows makes only sense to some level.



In this image the darks need to be dark. Pushing them to hard would just make the image dull.

I would say that the dynamic range used in that image is around nine EV:
20180619-_DSC9704-Full-8000x5320.jpg
Which essentially means that it could be taken using any modern camera, including the Canon 5Ds or my Phase One P45+ back.

Now, it could be argued that it would be possible to expose for the moon:


But, that would just give you a lot of shot noise with readout noise added. Resolving the noise with two more bits would be of little help.

If we need the ultimate DR, we can always resort to HDR techniques. But that leaves us with an image that is very difficult to display or print.

The image I use in this demo is an example. I want to print it, but it is very hard to find a good balance between keeping detail and having a decent level of contrast, especially on matte paper.

Best regards
Erik
 

Rand47

Active member
One of my first projects, other than configuring, getting up to speed with muscle memory, fun/test shooting.... my first real project will be photographing Frank Lloyd Wright’s Fallingwater the first week in September for several days - after a drive across country from CA, photographing along the way in Utah (Zion, Escalante, Burr Trail), Colorado and Northwestern Michigan (Grand Traverse Peninsula) and our cabin on Island Lake. Woopie! I just shut down my consulting business after almost 20 years, “after” I’d already retired (youngish)... so this is the “year of being free and doing my own photography.” The GFX 100 will be the frosting on the cake.

Rand


. . .

So .... looks like about 13 more days before ship time. I can't wait to get our demo in our hands. I'm interested to know what first projects those who have ordered have in mind for use with the Fuji GFX 100?


Steve Hendrix/CI
 

k-hawinkler

Well-known member
One of my first projects, other than configuring, getting up to speed with muscle memory, fun/test shooting.... my first real project will be photographing Frank Lloyd Wright’s Fallingwater the first week in September for several days - after a drive across country from CA, photographing along the way in Utah (Zion, Escalante, Burr Trail), Colorado and Northwestern Michigan (Grand Traverse Peninsula) and our cabin on Island Lake. Woopie! I just shut down my consulting business after almost 20 years, “after” I’d already retired (youngish)... so this is the “year of being free and doing my own photography.” The GFX 100 will be the frosting on the cake.

Rand

Good luck Rand. Enjoy! I know you will. :thumbs:
 

LargeSense

New member
You can see the full 16 bits in GIMP. If you convert to 32 bit then PhotoShop will be able to use all 16 bits.

Bill

Another interesting note I found is Photoshop limits its 16 bit values to 0-32,768.

So in Photoshop you are essentially limited to a 15 bit file.
 

Rand47

Active member
I went to the Fuji “hands on” with the GFX 100 at Camera West in Rancho Mirage, CA, yesterday afternoon. Spent a couple of hours configuring and then shooting with a pre-production (but pretty close to final) unit.

I know people throw about the “game-changer” word a lot these days - but I think this camera deserves the appellation. I was shooting inside the shop at 1/10th of a second, hand held, and getting RAZOR sharp images. The idea of shooting “off hand” with a medium format camera indoors in low light is almost weird feeling. Ergos are better than my GFX 50s w/ grip. Camera is actually thinner, albeit a tiny bit wider. So close in height as to be not worth mentioning (50s w/ grip). Vertical grip has received some questioning remarks re no “rubberized” stuff on it. I wondered myself. In reality the bottom of the body does have a large patch of rubberized material, and the “paint” of the grip is more tactile than it appears in photos. To wit: the vertical grip is fine. It’s profile “in the hand” is a little different than the horizontal grip, but muscle memory will take care of that in no time at all.

Shutter release is “leaf spring” type like the Fuji X-H1, but a little less “hair-trigger” - so in my opinion about perfect. Shutter is “quiet for a medium format camera.” Sub monitor LCD is very customizable and big enough to see easily even for an old dude with glasses (that would be me). The exposure comp button can be set to “switch” mode (in addition to “press and hold”) so that one can just turn it on and have the rear sub-dial (command wheel) be permanently EC control. That’s my preference since I shoot mainly aperture priority and tweak exposure w/ EC. Lots of customizable buttons. The touch LCD display can be almost limitlessly configured to work like the D-pad buttons that are missing on this camera. Touch implementation seems better than my X-H1.

Camera does have Bluetooth, which allows the Fuji remote phone app to have a “shutter release” only function (with a lock for long exposure work). Brilliant and makes your phone a truly functional remote release. Also for wired release, they put the 2.5mm jack on the right side (facing the back of the camera). “What a concept.” LOL Every other camera I’ve owned has all the ports under a hatch on the left side where it gets trapped under the L-plate and attaching a wired remote becomes a “thread the needle” through some small hole or slot and a total PITA. No more!

It almost goes without saying that the detail captured is absolutely stunning, even compared to my GFX 50s.

I came away more anxious and excited than before. The Fuji reps there said that Fuji has “way underestimated” the initial demand for the body and that known pre-orders exceeded their expectations “by a bunch.” Said that if one isn’t near the top on someone’s pre-order list, “It might be a while until they get one.”

That’s it...

Rand
 
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