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The next Phase One body and the Fuji GFX100

onasj

Active member
I'm a fan of many camera manufacturers: Nikon, Sony, Leica, Phase, Alpa—all have a special place in my heart, and each has filled (and continues to fill) a unique niche in the history of my enjoyment of photography.

The Fuji GFX100, from the early hands-on reviews, looks to be a very impressive camera. The AF and auto-eye AF have received a lot of praise for being fast and accurate. 5 fps speed and other features uncommon in medium format digital photography are also great to see.

I love Phase One for many reasons—their devotion to ultimate image quality, the simple fact that they currently make the world's best (for me) digital back in the IQ4-150, and my experience with DT as a Phase One dealer have all been positive.

In addition to continuing to debug and expand the functionality of the IQ4-150 back through firmware releases, my hope is that Phase One will release a mirrorless, svelte "XF2 body" in the not-too-distant future that brings better and more flexible AF, smaller size (thanks to the lack of a mirror and prism), and other nimble features such as those in the best Sony and Fuji mirrorless bodies. Such changes would substantially increase the scope, capabilities, and customer base of Phase photography.

In theory Phase is well-positioned to realize this goal, since their system is already highly modular, and the body is actually among the less-pricey components of a Phase system. So simply updating the body could breathe new life and excitement into their already-world-class backs and lenses.

A pipe dream? Or something already in the works at Phase?
 

Paul2660

Well-known member
Considering that P1 still has a lot of issues left to fix on the IQ4, most of them have been there since day 1, I would rather they focus on that before anything else.

Paul C
 

stngoldberg

Well-known member
I'm a fan of many camera manufacturers: Nikon, Sony, Leica, Phase, Alpa—all have a special place in my heart, and each has filled (and continues to fill) a unique niche in the history of my enjoyment of photography.

The Fuji GFX100, from the early hands-on reviews, looks to be a very impressive camera. The AF and auto-eye AF have received a lot of praise for being fast and accurate. 5 fps speed and other features uncommon in medium format digital photography are also great to see.

I love Phase One for many reasons—their devotion to ultimate image quality, the simple fact that they currently make the world's best (for me) digital back in the IQ4-150, and my experience with DT as a Phase One dealer have all been positive.

In addition to continuing to debug and expand the functionality of the IQ4-150 back through firmware releases, my hope is that Phase One will release a mirrorless, svelte "XF2 body" in the not-too-distant future that brings better and more flexible AF, smaller size (thanks to the lack of a mirror and prism), and other nimble features such as those in the best Sony and Fuji mirrorless bodies. Such changes would substantially increase the scope, capabilities, and customer base of Phase photography.

In theory Phase is well-positioned to realize this goal, since their system is already highly modular, and the body is actually among the less-pricey components of a Phase system. So simply updating the body could breathe new life and excitement into their already-world-class backs and lenses.

A pipe dream? Or something already in the works at Phase?
Would you pay 5x the price of a Fuji mirrorless for a Phase One?
Can P1 compete with Fuji?
Did Hasselblad make a profit selling their mirrorless camera?
Stanley
 

algrove

Well-known member
I'm a fan of many camera manufacturers: Nikon, Sony, Leica, Phase, Alpa—all have a special place in my heart, and each has filled (and continues to fill) a unique niche in the history of my enjoyment of photography.

The Fuji GFX100, from the early hands-on reviews, looks to be a very impressive camera. The AF and auto-eye AF have received a lot of praise for being fast and accurate. 5 fps speed and other features uncommon in medium format digital photography are also great to see.

I love Phase One for many reasons—their devotion to ultimate image quality, the simple fact that they currently make the world's best (for me) digital back in the IQ4-150, and my experience with DT as a Phase One dealer have all been positive.

In addition to continuing to debug and expand the functionality of the IQ4-150 back through firmware releases, my hope is that Phase One will release a mirrorless, svelte "XF2 body" in the not-too-distant future that brings better and more flexible AF, smaller size (thanks to the lack of a mirror and prism), and other nimble features such as those in the best Sony and Fuji mirrorless bodies. Such changes would substantially increase the scope, capabilities, and customer base of Phase photography.

In theory Phase is well-positioned to realize this goal, since their system is already highly modular, and the body is actually among the less-pricey components of a Phase system. So simply updating the body could breathe new life and excitement into their already-world-class backs and lenses.

A pipe dream? Or something already in the works at Phase?
IMHO. since Phase abandoned Small MF and left Fuji to reign as king of the Small MF market (leaving Hassy out of the mix for now) including supporting Fuji's SMF cameras in C1, I do not see Phase developing a svelte system on the Large MF platform since to me the word svelte contradicts Large MF. However I could certainly be wrong.
 

DaveRosenthal

New member
I'm a fan of many camera manufacturers: Nikon, Sony, Leica, Phase, Alpa—all have a special place in my heart, and each has filled (and continues to fill) a unique niche in the history of my enjoyment of photography.

The Fuji GFX100, from the early hands-on reviews, looks to be a very impressive camera. The AF and auto-eye AF have received a lot of praise for being fast and accurate. 5 fps speed and other features uncommon in medium format digital photography are also great to see.

I love Phase One for many reasons—their devotion to ultimate image quality, the simple fact that they currently make the world's best (for me) digital back in the IQ4-150, and my experience with DT as a Phase One dealer have all been positive.

In addition to continuing to debug and expand the functionality of the IQ4-150 back through firmware releases, my hope is that Phase One will release a mirrorless, svelte "XF2 body" in the not-too-distant future that brings better and more flexible AF, smaller size (thanks to the lack of a mirror and prism), and other nimble features such as those in the best Sony and Fuji mirrorless bodies. Such changes would substantially increase the scope, capabilities, and customer base of Phase photography.

In theory Phase is well-positioned to realize this goal, since their system is already highly modular, and the body is actually among the less-pricey components of a Phase system. So simply updating the body could breathe new life and excitement into their already-world-class backs and lenses.

A pipe dream? Or something already in the works at Phase?
I for one would really love that. Overall weight/size and not-great AF are really the only functional issues that I have with their cameras. I think I am not alone and they must know these are the parameters (+cost!) that they lose on. I think they could address size/weight pretty well by embracing mirrorless design, but I worry that decent AF will not be possible to achieve since none of their backs (IQ4 included) have focus pixels (like pretty much all other mirrorless cameras).

If I were them I would be investigating an as-lightweight-as-possible mirrorless body which *kept* the same lens mount/flange distance (compatibility at the cost of 4 cm). Build good modes into the IQ back to shoot directly with LCD, or perhaps build a lightweight EVF addition. Then augment that body with a couple of smaller lenses compatible with the existing system but explicitly targeted at portability (something like a 50mm f4 and an 80mm f4).

As you say, probably a pipe dream and there are some technical issues, but the phase folks are clever so I hold out hope that they have something up their sleeve in the future.
 

Christopher

Active member
I for one would really love that. Overall weight/size and not-great AF are really the only functional issues that I have with their cameras. I think I am not alone and they must know these are the parameters (+cost!) that they lose on. I think they could address size/weight pretty well by embracing mirrorless design, but I worry that decent AF will not be possible to achieve since none of their backs (IQ4 included) have focus pixels (like pretty much all other mirrorless cameras).

If I were them I would be investigating an as-lightweight-as-possible mirrorless body which *kept* the same lens mount/flange distance (compatibility at the cost of 4 cm). Build good modes into the IQ back to shoot directly with LCD, or perhaps build a lightweight EVF addition. Then augment that body with a couple of smaller lenses compatible with the existing system but explicitly targeted at portability (something like a 50mm f4 and an 80mm f4).

As you say, probably a pipe dream and there are some technical issues, but the phase folks are clever so I hold out hope that they have something up their sleeve in the future.
I don’t think it will come. I don’t think Phase can manage, modern good AF, new lenses and camera in one go. One just has to look at the horrible IQ4 launch and that was a single (3) new product.... and we are still waiting to get a finished firmware 6 months later.
 

onasj

Active member
Exactly. Keep the same flange distance and mount for sure. Almost all the Phase lenses (except maybe the 55) are very good to outstanding, and their Mamiya predecessors were pretty good as well.

Build a better, more flexible AF module; other manufacturers show that this is doable in a small mirrorless body. Perhaps that’s nothing more than contrast detection on 1% or 0.1% of sensor pixels. Given how well the real-time focus masking (peaking) on the IQ4 back alone works, I hope this might be possible.

The user interface of the XF is excellent. The IQ4 back is unmatched. The lenses are quite good. Downsize the body by losing the mirror, modernize the AF to match the competitors, and then you’ll have a no-compromises system that fully justifies a no-compromises price.


I for one would really love that. Overall weight/size and not-great AF are really the only functional issues that I have with their cameras. I think I am not alone and they must know these are the parameters (+cost!) that they lose on. I think they could address size/weight pretty well by embracing mirrorless design, but I worry that decent AF will not be possible to achieve since none of their backs (IQ4 included) have focus pixels (like pretty much all other mirrorless cameras).

If I were them I would be investigating an as-lightweight-as-possible mirrorless body which *kept* the same lens mount/flange distance (compatibility at the cost of 4 cm). Build good modes into the IQ back to shoot directly with LCD, or perhaps build a lightweight EVF addition. Then augment that body with a couple of smaller lenses compatible with the existing system but explicitly targeted at portability (something like a 50mm f4 and an 80mm f4).

As you say, probably a pipe dream and there are some technical issues, but the phase folks are clever so I hold out hope that they have something up their sleeve in the future.
 

gerald.d

Well-known member
Exactly. Keep the same flange distance and mount for sure. Almost all the Phase lenses (except maybe the 55) are very good to outstanding, and their Mamiya predecessors were pretty good as well.

Build a better, more flexible AF module; other manufacturers show that this is doable in a small mirrorless body. Perhaps that’s nothing more than contrast detection on 1% or 0.1% of sensor pixels. Given how well the real-time focus masking (peaking) on the IQ4 back alone works, I hope this might be possible.

The user interface of the XF is excellent. The IQ4 back is unmatched. The lenses are quite good. Downsize the body by losing the mirror, modernize the AF to match the competitors, and then you’ll have a no-compromises system that fully justifies a no-compromises price.
How is the body going to be “downsized” by removing the mirror box if you maintain the same focal flange distance?
 

onasj

Active member
How is the body going to be “downsized” by removing the mirror box if you maintain the same focal flange distance?
Because the prism VF is large, the part of the body to the right of the optical path is large, and the grip is large.

I shoot the same lenses on my Alpa TC12 and I can pack the SK 80/2.8 BR + Alpa TC12 + IQ4, all assembled and ready-to-shoot, in a small case that's about half-way between the size of a small Kleenex box and a large Kleenex box (much less space than my Nikon D810 + one small lens occupy!). Of course the Alpa doesn't support AF, but as Sony and Fuji have shown repeatedly, amazing AF doesn't necessitate lots of volume.
 

gerald.d

Well-known member
Because the prism VF is large, the part of the body to the right of the optical path is large, and the grip is large.

I shoot the same lenses on my Alpa TC12 and I can pack the SK 80/2.8 BR + Alpa TC12 + IQ4, all assembled and ready-to-shoot, in a small case that's about half-way between the size of a small Kleenex box and a large Kleenex box (much less space than my Nikon D810 + one small lens occupy!). Of course the Alpa doesn't support AF, but as Sony and Fuji have shown repeatedly, amazing AF doesn't necessitate lots of volume.
The ALPA doesn’t have a viewfinder either. I assume you still want a viewfinder of some sort? And presumably it will go above the space where the mirror box was?

And the battery that is currently in the grip? Where’s that going to go? The ALPA doesn’t need one of those. Nor does it need a display, nor does it need any dials or buttons - all of which I assume you will want on the hypothetical new Phase One body? They’ve got to be located somewhere.

The focal flange length for Mamiya 645 is 63.3mm

For Fuji G it is 26.7mm. For Hasselblad X it is 18mm.

No camera manufacturer on the planet - to the best of my knowledge - has “gone mirrorless” and kept the same focal flange distance that they had for their legacy mirror-box range.

Phase One won’t be the first to do it. I’m pretty sure of that.

There is just no way they would bring out a mirrorless camera whose depth was - at an absolute minimum (and that’s assuming they relocate 50-70% of the depth of the back itself elsewhere in the main camera body) - 45mm more than the Hasselblad, or 37mm more than the Fuji.

Sketch it out. It would be preposterous.

/edit

Just to add some perspective.

The depth of the entire Fuji GFX body - grip included - is just 103mm. That’s a mere 40mm deeper Phase One’s flange distance.

The Hasselblad X1D is 71mm deep. It would almost - almost - fit in the space between the sensor and the lens mount on the Phase One.
 
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ErikKaffehr

Well-known member
I for one would really love that. Overall weight/size and not-great AF are really the only functional issues that I have with their cameras. I think I am not alone and they must know these are the parameters (+cost!) that they lose on. I think they could address size/weight pretty well by embracing mirrorless design, but I worry that decent AF will not be possible to achieve since none of their backs (IQ4 included) have focus pixels (like pretty much all other mirrorless cameras).

If I were them I would be investigating an as-lightweight-as-possible mirrorless body which *kept* the same lens mount/flange distance (compatibility at the cost of 4 cm). Build good modes into the IQ back to shoot directly with LCD, or perhaps build a lightweight EVF addition. Then augment that body with a couple of smaller lenses compatible with the existing system but explicitly targeted at portability (something like a 50mm f4 and an 80mm f4).

As you say, probably a pipe dream and there are some technical issues, but the phase folks are clever so I hold out hope that they have something up their sleeve in the future.
Hi,

Once you have phase detection on the sensor it could be to make use of that on the XF, presuming that there is a proper communication between the back and the camera.

You have to wait and see...

Best regards
Erik
 

drunkenspyder

Well-known member
I'm a fan of many camera manufacturers: Nikon, Sony, Leica, Phase, Alpa—all have a special place in my heart, and each has filled (and continues to fill) a unique niche in the history of my enjoyment of photography.

The Fuji GFX100, from the early hands-on reviews, looks to be a very impressive camera. The AF and auto-eye AF have received a lot of praise for being fast and accurate. 5 fps speed and other features uncommon in medium format digital photography are also great to see.

I love Phase One for many reasons—their devotion to ultimate image quality, the simple fact that they currently make the world's best (for me) digital back in the IQ4-150, and my experience with DT as a Phase One dealer have all been positive.

In addition to continuing to debug and expand the functionality of the IQ4-150 back through firmware releases, my hope is that Phase One will release a mirrorless, svelte "XF2 body" in the not-too-distant future that brings better and more flexible AF, smaller size (thanks to the lack of a mirror and prism), and other nimble features such as those in the best Sony and Fuji mirrorless bodies. Such changes would substantially increase the scope, capabilities, and customer base of Phase photography.

In theory Phase is well-positioned to realize this goal, since their system is already highly modular, and the body is actually among the less-pricey components of a Phase system. So simply updating the body could breathe new life and excitement into their already-world-class backs and lenses.

A pipe dream? Or something already in the works at Phase?
I don't think it is a pipe dream at all. And while I concur with other posters in my desire to see the firmware improved, I think the tea leaves contain some indication that Phase is working on something that might qualify as "mirrorless," but not in the way we might expect.
 

lance100

New member
Considering that P1 still has a lot of issues left to fix on the IQ4, most of them have been there since day 1, I would rather they focus on that before anything else.


Hi and thank you for posting this...

I have been looking at the Phase one IQ4 with the mono and color backs...Now the GFX100 comes along albeit and smaller sensor..and way less $$$

If I am interested in prints to 5 feet...Is Phase One still the darling or will this new Fuji close the gap even though they kept sensor the same size as the GFX50? I was out with a Photographer shooting the other day and we discussed Phase One mono back..he said its great advertising but converting to black and white is just as good..

My concern is the issues you mentioned...and any comments you have regarding photo resolution I would be appreciative.

Lance
 

algrove

Well-known member
lance
If I was not invested in the Phase One IQ4150 , I would not hesitate getting the 100MP Fuji. I own a50R and it is a wonderful camera and the lenses are also excellent. Printing to 60" is not an issue with most cameras today that have 50 of more MP. You would be surprised at how large native images can be even with 50MP and I often will be more than happy printing at 240 dpi. Heck. 2 Leica 24MP stitched images can easily go to 48" and the considering the overlap the image does not total 50MP.
 

Paul2660

Well-known member
Considering that P1 still has a lot of issues left to fix on the IQ4, most of them have been there since day 1, I would rather they focus on that before anything else.


Hi and thank you for posting this...

I have been looking at the Phase one IQ4 with the mono and color backs...Now the GFX100 comes along albeit and smaller sensor..and way less $$$

If I am interested in prints to 5 feet...Is Phase One still the darling or will this new Fuji close the gap even though they kept sensor the same size as the GFX50? I was out with a Photographer shooting the other day and we discussed Phase One mono back..he said its great advertising but converting to black and white is just as good..

My concern is the issues you mentioned...and any comments you have regarding photo resolution I would be appreciative.

Lance
P1 is surely one of the darlings as you can get a huge file from just the native resolution of the sensor, nothing that approaches 5' (at least I don't think so).

But with any print of 5 feet I always have to ask, where is it displayed? what is the viewing audience, etc. You can get a 5 foot from from a 46Mp sensor, either by stitching multiple images together, or by using a tool like Topaz Gigapixel (not sure it will go that size) or other interpolation tools.

But the Fuji @ 100MP will also get there quickly with stitching or software interpolation.

The key for the Fuji, will be the raw converter software, both LR and C1 hopefully will support it and both do a very good job on the 50MP files from the 50s or 50r. Fuji has excellent optics by most folks standards, and I rarely find any issues with focus shift, however others have pointed it out in a few of the Fuji lenses. But I can get by with any of their optics with no problems. Fuji will be a more hand workable camera with IBIS on the sensor and hopefully Fuji still plans to release a pixel shift type solution later on with firmware, it's been mentioned many times but did not make the actual anno. Time will tell, and again the raw conversion of those files will be critical.

There are many great solutions out there to get to the size print you are looking for, some just may take more time both with capture and post processing to get the final result.

Paul C
 

drevil

Well-known member
Staff member
i have said it before in other threads, phase always stated, as for the c1 support of the gfx, they are not supporting direct competitors.

phase and fuji made a deal, leaving them their own field, fuji can have the "LARGE FORMAT" sector, while phase keeps the 645 full frame market.

phase will remain the top of the line for a hefty price tag, and they will keep their customers. and again phase´s customers are not hobby and professional photographers with a bug wallet, we all heard from doug and others how big institutions are their customers as well.

so if phase creates a mirrorless camera it might be a 645 fullframe, but we all know what that would need, logically thinking, new lenses and shorter flange to keep stuff small, which is the main point about mirrorless right?


so my 2 cents, phase wont release a mirrorless, but i would like to be proven wrong, competition is always good for us, the customers.
 

lance100

New member
lance
If I was not invested in the Phase One IQ4150 , I would not hesitate getting the 100MP Fuji. I own a50R and it is a wonderful camera and the lenses are also excellent. Printing to 60" is not an issue with most cameras today that have 50 of more MP. You would be surprised at how large native images can be even with 50MP and I often will be more than happy printing at 240 dpi. Heck. 2 Leica 24MP stitched images can easily go to 48" and the considering the overlap the image does not total 50MP.
Ok thank you so much! All the talk about the Phase One larger sensor had me second guessing.

Lance
 
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