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Thread: Into MF - Questions and Back (IQ140 or p45+)

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    Into MF - Questions and Back (IQ140 or p45+)

    Hello MF Ambassadors,

    I decided once, that if I ever get the chance to make cheap leap into digital MF, I will give it a try. I now have the chance of either the p45+ for 1000€ or the IQ140 back for around 1.600€, which seem fairly reasonable, and with a DF body and 80mm is well in my price range.

    Now I made my researches, but as MF is so densely populated, it wasn't always easy to get the information, I was looking for. There are a few last questions I got and possibly a little help regarding the choice between the two backs would be very much appriciated.

    First and foremost - the two backs. What would be your choice and why? I read a bit here in forums and the opinions seem to get in either directions between the two, regarding battery lifetime, screen and actual sensor size, where I don't get quite the deal of the benefits.

    Second regarding lenses - the newer Phase One lenses have this blue ring around them. However, I couldn't really find detailed information about the changes made to those technically. I guess they are made for this IQ4 100MP+ system and would be over-do to my desired system anyhow (ignoring the pricetag)?

    Third and lastly - It would be so super awesome, if someone could provide me a full res jpg for a littel pixelpeeping on either of the backs. <3

    Many thanks in advance for any advice and help
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    Re: Into MF - Questions and Back (IQ140 or p45+)

    Quote Originally Posted by Enthree View Post
    Hello MF Ambassadors,

    I decided once, that if I ever get the chance to make cheap leap into digital MF, I will give it a try. I now have the chance of either the p45+ for 1000€ or the IQ140 back for around 1.600€, which seem fairly reasonable, and with a DF body and 80mm is well in my price range.

    Now I made my researches, but as MF is so densely populated, it wasn't always easy to get the information, I was looking for. There are a few last questions I got and possibly a little help regarding the choice between the two backs would be very much appriciated.

    First and foremost - the two backs. What would be your choice and why? I read a bit here in forums and the opinions seem to get in either directions between the two, regarding battery lifetime, screen and actual sensor size, where I don't get quite the deal of the benefits.

    Second regarding lenses - the newer Phase One lenses have this blue ring around them. However, I couldn't really find detailed information about the changes made to those technically. I guess they are made for this IQ4 100MP+ system and would be over-do to my desired system anyhow (ignoring the pricetag)?

    Third and lastly - It would be so super awesome, if someone could provide me a full res jpg for a littel pixelpeeping on either of the backs. <3

    Many thanks in advance for any advice and help
    P45+ will give you a true 1 hour exposure, best at base ISO. ISO ranges much past 400 will will have issue with noise, C1 can help on this. Color on this back is excellent, Kodak chip, one of the best in 2008.
    P45+ has a poor LCD, worthless IMO for review of images. Only tethers with Firewire, older firewire and hard to find a laptop solution for that anymore
    OK Raw support in LR/ACR, excellent raw support in C1
    Still find the the P45+ files I have from 10 to 9 years ago, are quite good and color is amazing. Later versions of C1 really helped on the raws from the P45+

    IQ 140 has the IQ interface, vr1, which does allow USB 3 tethering to Laptop,
    Much better screen which can be used for image review
    In doors can attempt to use Live View, pretty hard to use outdoors due to blooming
    No 1 hour exposure, but better high ISO range useable to around 1600 or so.
    Excellent color, but to be honest, I can't remember if the IQ140 used the Dalsa chip @ 39MP, I believe it is Dalsa, not Kodak,
    Long exposures past 1 minute very limited.

    Note, if you can step up to a DF+, do it. Much better battery solution, and AF is considerably better than DF. Also see if you can get the rechargeable battery for the DF, DF+, and not use the AA's as they were less reliable in the field.

    Paul C
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    Re: Into MF - Questions and Back (IQ140 or p45+)

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post
    P45+ will give you a true 1 hour exposure, best at base ISO. ISO ranges much past 400 will will have issue with noise, C1 can help on this. Color on this back is excellent, Kodak chip, one of the best in 2008.
    P45+ has a poor LCD, worthless IMO for review of images. Only tethers with Firewire, older firewire and hard to find a laptop solution for that anymore
    OK Raw support in LR/ACR, excellent raw support in C1
    Still find the the P45+ files I have from 10 to 9 years ago, are quite good and color is amazing. Later versions of C1 really helped on the raws from the P45+

    IQ 140 has the IQ interface, vr1, which does allow USB 3 tethering to Laptop,
    Much better screen which can be used for image review
    In doors can attempt to use Live View, pretty hard to use outdoors due to blooming
    No 1 hour exposure, but better high ISO range useable to around 1600 or so.
    Excellent color, but to be honest, I can't remember if the IQ140 used the Dalsa chip @ 39MP, I believe it is Dalsa, not Kodak,
    Long exposures past 1 minute very limited.

    Note, if you can step up to a DF+, do it. Much better battery solution, and AF is considerably better than DF. Also see if you can get the rechargeable battery for the DF, DF+, and not use the AA's as they were less reliable in the field.

    Paul C
    Thank you so much Paul. That is very helpful.

    I don't think, I will need these hour long exposures at all. For the firewire, I am just guessing that there are possible solutions with converters? Just a bit slow maybe. So that wouldn't be a killing point. I would like the USB Workflow of course much better tho. A more stable ISO up to 400-800 would be gorgeous. From my experience, I am hardly ever going beond that anyway, but for a few situations this would come in handy for sure. The screen also speaks for the IQ140, which I knew is a lot better, but I'd also sacrifice it for better pixels look&feel and ofc colors anytime.

    So the real interesting point for me is the actual look and feel, which remains a bit unclear still.

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    Re: Into MF - Questions and Back (IQ140 or p45+)

    I think it is worth considering the IQ140 would be compatible with the XF camera, if you can stretch the budget or ever wanted to upgrade. The P45+ would not be. This may not be something you particularly care about.

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    Re: Into MF - Questions and Back (IQ140 or p45+)

    Quote Originally Posted by RobbieAB View Post
    I think it is worth considering the IQ140 would be compatible with the XF camera, if you can stretch the budget or ever wanted to upgrade. The P45+ would not be. This may not be something you particularly care about.
    Thanks for this important point, that I didn't actually know about! For now this might be true, but if I should fall in love with the Medium Format on P1, who know's what happens next. I now slightly tending towards the IQ140. Better pay a little more, than be sorry later.

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    Re: Into MF - Questions and Back (IQ140 or p45+)

    I vote for the IQ140. Good entry level but with a much improved interface, making usability a huge improvement over the prior P/P+ series.

    Go to the Phase XF camera body. Skip the DF/DF+. The improvement in AF performance between the DF and DF+ is negligible. The Phase XF will cost more, but it is an all new platform and substantially better than prior camera bodies. This is not a generational improvement, but an entirely new system that can make the difference between getting the shot and enjoyment----or frustration with the DF/DF+ and an emotional bruising that could undeservedly frighten you away. Many here can probably attest to their experience with the old AFD, AFDII, and DF bodies, to the point that Dante had to work hard to gently coax them to stay in the medium format inferno. Indeed, many miscreants left for the Nikon D800.

    The Phase XF is simply a solid camera platform. It works. The AF performance is solid. Working with leaf shutters and fast flash sync is much easier with the IQ and XF. I'm not sure how many of the features are available with the IQ140, but I'm sure you will enjoy them eventually as you work up the MFDB upgrade path.

    If you find that medium format digital is not for you----you'll find that resale of the IQ and XF will be much easier than with the older platforms.

    Ken

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    Re: Into MF - Questions and Back (IQ140 or p45+)

    Quote Originally Posted by Enthree View Post
    Thank you so much Paul. That is very helpful.

    I don't think, I will need these hour long exposures at all. For the firewire, I am just guessing that there are possible solutions with converters? Just a bit slow maybe. So that wouldn't be a killing point. I would like the USB Workflow of course much better tho. A more stable ISO up to 400-800 would be gorgeous. From my experience, I am hardly ever going beond that anyway, but for a few situations this would come in handy for sure. The screen also speaks for the IQ140, which I knew is a lot better, but I'd also sacrifice it for better pixels look&feel and ofc colors anytime.

    So the real interesting point for me is the actual look and feel, which remains a bit unclear still.
    Do not assume there is a firewire to usb converter.

    As far as I know there is none.

    Firewire and usb use a different transfer protocol. Usb delivers data in packets / Firewire delivers a direct stream. These two methods are incompatible and likely will not work.

    If you plan to use a laptop it would need to have a native firewire port or a pci expansion slot that can take a firewire adapter. (haven't seen a laptop with a pci expansion port in ages)

    I had a build a modern computer to use with an older back at one point in time, but it was a desktop so I could put in a native firewire PCI card into the computer. That will work if you don't mind using a desktop pc.
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    Re: Into MF - Questions and Back (IQ140 or p45+)

    IQ140 every day if you don't want the mega long exposure capabilities of the P45+.

    Btw, how much is your guy asking for the P45+ - I have a need for that back but its specialized long exposure. PM me.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    The World is a book, and those that do not travel read only one page ...
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    Re: Into MF - Questions and Back (IQ140 or p45+)

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    IQ140 every day if you don't want the mega long exposure capabilities of the P45+.

    Btw, how much is your guy asking for the P45+ - I have a need for that back but its specialized long exposure. PM me.
    The guys are currently both not responding. Maybe they are sold already *sigh*. I'll keep you updated.

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    Re: Into MF - Questions and Back (IQ140 or p45+)

    echo the comments above about usb vs firewire

    yes the P is still a great back, but the tech is old.

    To tether in the field, you are going to need an old macbook pro, which has an inbuilt firewire port. Forget trying to find a pc laptop to do this

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    Re: Into MF - Questions and Back (IQ140 or p45+)

    Well, some days of reading and researches past. The initial two sensors are gone, but new options developed:

    1. H3D body+Back, together with the H 80mm f2.8, 4 batteries, 2 chargers, remote controller for 1.900€ (think this is the best bank for buck I've encountered so far. However, I still tend more to P1, because of the flexibility of an open system and affordable lenses)

    2. Leaf Aptus 75 1.000€

    3. IQ140 "broken" for 1.280 €

    Now for the IQ140 is from a professional trader who states the following:

    "Please Note, The LCD on this item flickers back to the main menu page and in turn accessing any internal menus for settings is temperamental."

    To me this sounds like a software or touchscreen bug. Has anyone experienced something similar with an IQ back and can give advice? The trading house will still grant me a 14-day-money-back, so I thought it might be worth trying out to fix it with resets and different drivers if that is possible. I think, it is possible, that they didn't even try out to fix it, since it is pretty large trading house. What you think? Is it worth trying? Any advice's on the approach?
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    Re: Into MF - Questions and Back (IQ140 or p45+)

    I suggest you start contacting Phase One dealers about MFDBs. You can peruse their websites, but often there is a hidden cadre of used or CPO MFDBs for sale (that may not posted) in inventory.

    ken
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    Re: Into MF - Questions and Back (IQ140 or p45+)

    Around one year ago I read that Phase was no longer supporting the P45+. That might have an impact on your decisions.
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    Re: Into MF - Questions and Back (IQ140 or p45+)

    there are enough backs out there to not have to gamble on one which isnt working properly - you just need to go visit a dealer (if you have something to trade in, all the better) Phase One are keen to get you into the lineup so can often give you good deals you wont get elsewhere. The bonus being you'd get support and a warranty

    The Hasselblad is a good camera (I loved my H in my hands way more than the DF or XF bodies) but its a closed system. You cant upgrade the back or body as easily as you can with a P1 system
    You also have to use Phocus rather than Capture One, as the hassy is not supported in C1

    Unless you are in a rush, just wait a little longer for the right combo to come along, or go speak to an authorised dealer. You dont have to buy from them, but you will get an idea of what deals they can offer you to get you started

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    Re: Into MF - Questions and Back (IQ140 or p45+)

    Quote Originally Posted by Boinger View Post
    Do not assume there is a firewire to usb converter.

    As far as I know there is none.

    Firewire and usb use a different transfer protocol. Usb delivers data in packets / Firewire delivers a direct stream. These two methods are incompatible and likely will not work.

    If you plan to use a laptop it would need to have a native firewire port or a pci expansion slot that can take a firewire adapter. (haven't seen a laptop with a pci expansion port in ages)

    I had a build a modern computer to use with an older back at one point in time, but it was a desktop so I could put in a native firewire PCI card into the computer. That will work if you don't mind using a desktop pc.
    With my MacBook Pro 13' 2017 I was able to use a combination of Thunderbolt 3 to Thunderbolt 2 cable in conjunction with a Thunderbolt 2 to Firewire cable. By doing this I can tether my CFV-50c with Phocus.

    I assume it would be the same for the p45+.
    Marco Ristuccia
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    Re: Into MF - Questions and Back (IQ140 or p45+)

    I did contact p1 concerning the back issue and also about local dealers. I'll see what they say about it. Maybe they also have another offer.

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    Re: Into MF - Questions and Back (IQ140 or p45+)

    I had an Aptus 75S. Good back for it's day but surpassed now by full frame DSLRs and Mirrorless cameras. It did not have long exposure or high iso capability
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    Re: Into MF - Questions and Back (IQ140 or p45+)

    Quote Originally Posted by algrove View Post
    Around one year ago I read that Phase was no longer supporting the P45+. That might have an impact on your decisions.

    That announcement was for discontinuation of support for P series digital backs (non Plus).

    All P+ series digital backs are still supported and serviced.


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    Re: Into MF - Questions and Back (IQ140 or p45+)

    Hi,

    I faced the same dilemma regarding the XF or DF. I eventually went with a XF with IQ140. I got the XF from mpb, iq140 off ebay and 80 mm non br from a shop in Germany.

    Although the XF is more expensive, it is worth it as you can keep the body and upgrade the back subsequently. IMO it is more in sync with the IQ backs and the fact that they share the battery type is a big plus in my book. Also, the embedded profoto trigger and controller is another big plus, as I decided to go the profoto route.

    Hope this helps.

    Any questions, feel free to ask.

    LE. Wanted to say that I switched to phase from a Hassy H5D40. I found the phase system more future proof and better featured.

    Cheers,

    Mircea
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    Re: Into MF - Questions and Back (IQ140 or p45+)

    Just for the record: Firewire -> Thunderbolt works. I had two adapters stacked: FW->TBv1 and TBv1->USB-C on my Macbook late 2016. No issues.

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    Re: Into MF - Questions and Back (IQ140 or p45+)

    Forget the Firewire USB discussion.

    I baught the "broken" IQ140 with the touchscreen bug from mpb for 1.200 bucks, reset the firmware - works.

    LOL
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    Re: Into MF - Questions and Back (IQ140 or p45+)

    I saw that IQ140 too, you were lucky. I would still send it to phase for a checkup, just to be sure.

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    Re: Into MF - Questions and Back (IQ140 or p45+)

    Yes, pretty lucky. I was about to leave it there for the time being, before "Dante" would strike, as you guys name it.

    So I already tested a bit today and everything seems pretty fine. Two things tho:
    1. Capture One 12 won't detect the back via USB tethering. Which lead me to ->
    2. When I update to latest firmware, the error comes back. So it might be a software problem still.

    You said, you're operating with the IQ140 too, right? Do you have the latest firmware installed? Or do you have an older one, you might share with me? I already contacted p1 for this matter.

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    Re: Into MF - Questions and Back (IQ140 or p45+)

    Hi,

    I installed the latest firmware, both on the XF and the IQ140, I believe it's the one from February 2019. I installed the firmware on both at he same time, with the CameraSystem4.02.7.fwp file from phase one. I put the file on a cf card and updated via the backs' menu system.

    Didn't have any issues so far.

    Cheers,

    Mircea
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    Re: Into MF - Questions and Back (IQ140 or p45+)

    Quote Originally Posted by Massive Si View Post
    echo the comments above about usb vs firewire

    yes the P is still a great back, but the tech is old.

    To tether in the field, you are going to need an old macbook pro, which has an inbuilt firewire port. Forget trying to find a pc laptop to do this
    Not so about the PC laptop. I own three of them.

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    Re: Into MF - Questions and Back (IQ140 or p45+)

    IQ140, and if you can stretch the budget, XF body — the features available in the new body are leaps better than any of the old Mamiya/Phase bodies. You're investing into a system, and the XF is the way to go, as they are continually updating and improving the camera.
    Bryan @ The Broketographers
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    Re: Into MF - Questions and Back (IQ140 or p45+)

    My God, I’m facing the same situation. I have been thinking about switch to MF last two weeks, and P45+ vs IQ140 are my consideration exactly. I made a decision to hunt on the Iq140 before I get here, still, reading all the comments here just make my faith stronger on IQ140, but I’m living in Vietnam so it’s pretty hard to get one. Checking eBay everyday hopefully the miracle will show up lol. But they are all more expensive than the one you got, Enthree. Btw, hope you will solve the problem with the back soon,

    Cheers 🍻

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    Re: Into MF - Questions and Back (IQ140 or p45+)

    Quote Originally Posted by thebroketographer View Post
    IQ140, and if you can stretch the budget, XF body — the features available in the new body are leaps better than any of the old Mamiya/Phase bodies. You're investing into a system, and the XF is the way to go, as they are continually updating and improving the camera.
    Heyyyy glad to see your comment here, I read your blog about the iq140 that helped me alot to make decision

    Thanksss 🍻
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    Re: Into MF - Questions and Back (IQ140 or p45+)

    The ci is selling the iq140 for $4990, hope it’s half of that 🙄😆
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    Re: Into MF - Questions and Back (IQ140 or p45+)

    Quote Originally Posted by huyu View Post
    Heyyyy glad to see your comment here, I read your blog about the iq140 that helped me alot to make decision

    Thanksss 🍻

    Good to see you here too, and I'm glad I was able to help
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    Re: Into MF - Questions and Back (IQ140 or p45+)

    All I can say is that the IQ140 is still a great back with nice CCD files and if somebody is interested I have one for sale!?

    It's recently serviced by Phase One and still working like a charm.

    Cheers,

    Walter
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    Re: Into MF - Questions and Back (IQ140 or p45+)

    Quote Originally Posted by hrfst View Post
    All I can say is that the IQ140 is still a great back with nice CCD files and if somebody is interested I have one for sale!?

    It's recently serviced by Phase One and still working like a charm.

    Cheers,

    Walter
    That’s awesome! Can you share more info about the back? Photos/video that show the back in working that would be nice. I’m interested indeed

    Cheers

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    Re: Into MF - Questions and Back (IQ140 or p45+)

    Hi Walter,

    Sorry to hijack the thread, but I have a question about the phase one back servicing. I want to send my back for servicing as I believe there is dust underneath the IR filter. However, Phase will give an estimation after the back is there.

    Could you help me out, as you have serviced the back recently? I would like to know how much you paid for the labor/servicing, as I am planning to go on holiday and would like to know how I could budget things.

    Thanks in advance!

    Regards,

    Mircea

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    Re: Into MF - Questions and Back (IQ140 or p45+)

    Quote Originally Posted by borzamircea View Post
    Hi Walter,

    Sorry to hijack the thread, but I have a question about the phase one back servicing. I want to send my back for servicing as I believe there is dust underneath the IR filter. However, Phase will give an estimation after the back is there.

    Could you help me out, as you have serviced the back recently? I would like to know how much you paid for the labor/servicing, as I am planning to go on holiday and would like to know how I could budget things.

    Thanks in advance!

    Regards,

    Mircea
    Hi Mircea,

    For the service on the IQ140 I had to pay € 565 , but before this back I had a Leaf Aptus 22 and had to replace the IR filter that costed € 1000

    Hope this helps!

    Regards,

    Walter

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    Re: Into MF - Questions and Back (IQ140 or p45+)

    Hi Walter,

    Thank you very much for the fast reply.

    I don't believe the filter has to be replaced, at least I hope so. What did the 565 eur include? Cleaning and labour costs? Was the transport included, or was that separate?

    I also have the XF viewfinder which would need cleaning and probably a top plate replacement, and hopefully both will fit the 1000 eur budget I had put aside.

    Thanks again for helping out!

    Cheers, Mircea
    Last edited by borzamircea; 3 Weeks Ago at 03:32.

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    Re: Into MF - Questions and Back (IQ140 or p45+)

    Quote Originally Posted by huyu
    Hi bro,

    I'm in the same situation considering buying P45+ or IQ140 just like you, and I found your thread and read lots of helpful comments there. Glad you got the IQ140. How is going with that? What are you shooting? Could you share some of the file that you shot with the IQ140 ? I've been searching for the sample photos from that but not really much.

    Thing is I'm living in Vietnam and there're lots of limitation to buy thing like MFDB

    Thank you,
    I'm responding to your pm in this thread "huyu", since I think it might be helpful for others too. I know it is quite hard to get around suitable test files, so I uploaded three raw files from my first "test-shooting" from a friend and myself with the "80mm LS" together with final jpg's in full res for you and send them over PM - please use em confidential, and delete them, when you finished testing, before they get lost on your computer, ok?

    I'm pretty satisfied with it. Especially since I could almost fix the touchscreen "ghost-touching" issue with the firmware reset and actually use it quite well - I decided to keep it for now and not use the 14-Day warranty. There are some restrains with it, but it's going well enough for me. For example, there is no USB support in the reset firmware, so if I want to use tethering, I have to again update the back and lock the screen/menu entirely.

    For what I've seen the p45+ is maybe even a "tint" better in overall image quality, but this is purely subjective since I couldn't test out an actual p45+ back and only have the old 80mm right now. For an even cheaper version I found the Leaf Credo 75 (33mp) a proper contest. Very accurate colors and also sharp "enough". We are talking medium format here of course, so every thing is grumble on a very very high level.

    Considering the IQ140 I must admit, since I got it, I developed a new and deeper interest in photography. I was never really happy with any of the file results in digital format of photography, so I never bothered to make any larger arrangements, plan shootings, images and so on, although as an art-director and fine artist I always knew why and how to do it. I'd rather stick with my OMD EM10 m4/3, not carry anything, snapshoting and use things like DxO to convert them into film and proper images for photography and for art stick to the paint.

    Until now. What I get is hard restrains one the one hand (ISO, weight), but on the other I get simply the best, sharpest and cleanest file, that makes the effort actually worthwhile. I also found it totally mind-blowing, to be able to crop out large parts of an image and still have a very competitive resolution. Actually - I would even consider are larger MP back like IQ180 or stuff, since I love to do that. Maybe I'm gonna sell it and upgrade to that later on. For now I am planning my first actual shooting.

    The step into MF confirmed the thoughts I always had: it is just different.

    Hope this helps.
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  37. #37
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    Re: Into MF - Questions and Back (IQ140 or p45+)

    Quote Originally Posted by Enthree View Post
    I'm responding to your pm in this thread "huyu", since I think it might be helpful for others too. I know it is quite hard to get around suitable test files, so I uploaded three raw files from my first "test-shooting" from a friend and myself with the "80mm LS" together with final jpg's in full res for you and send them over PM - please use em confidential, and delete them, when you finished testing, before they get lost on your computer, ok?

    I'm pretty satisfied with it. Especially since I could almost fix the touchscreen "ghost-touching" issue with the firmware reset and actually use it quite well - I decided to keep it for now and not use the 14-Day warranty. There are some restrains with it, but it's going well enough for me. For example, there is no USB support in the reset firmware, so if I want to use tethering, I have to again update the back and lock the screen/menu entirely.

    For what I've seen the p45+ is maybe even a "tint" better in overall image quality, but this is purely subjective since I couldn't test out an actual p45+ back and only have the old 80mm right now. For an even cheaper version I found the Leaf Credo 75 (33mp) a proper contest. Very accurate colors and also sharp "enough". We are talking medium format here of course, so every thing is grumble on a very very high level.

    Considering the IQ140 I must admit, since I got it, I developed a new and deeper interest in photography. I was never really happy with any of the file results in digital format of photography, so I never bothered to make any larger arrangements, plan shootings, images and so on, although as an art-director and fine artist I always knew why and how to do it. I'd rather stick with my OMD EM10 m4/3, not carry anything, snapshoting and use things like DxO to convert them into film and proper images for photography and for art stick to the paint.

    Until now. What I get is hard restrains one the one hand (ISO, weight), but on the other I get simply the best, sharpest and cleanest file, that makes the effort actually worthwhile. I also found it totally mind-blowing, to be able to crop out large parts of an image and still have a very competitive resolution. Actually - I would even consider are larger MP back like IQ180 or stuff, since I love to do that. Maybe I'm gonna sell it and upgrade to that later on. For now I am planning my first actual shooting.

    The step into MF confirmed the thoughts I always had: it is just different.

    Hope this helps.
    Thank you so much for taking your time sharing your experiences and the files, of course (for sure I will keep it confidential). I think for now I will keep saving to get the certificated pre-owned from CI, not those from eBay. Or maybe keep saving up til I can get the IQ180
    I'm using the Canon 5DsR + A7R3, those are Megapixel all about but I'm still not happy with their files. The show must go on haha

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