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Thread: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

  1. #51
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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    Quote Originally Posted by Smoothjazz View Post
    Ken,

    If it makes you feel any better, I made the same mistake. I could not update the digital back, and after many attempts, realized that I did not have the previous firmware release prior to this one. I also had read this somewhere, and fortunately remembered it too. I plan to try the frame averaging function for the first time today.

    Cheers,

    John
    I did see the notation about the older firmware being a prerequisite----but for whatever reason, my IQ4 sorta took on a life of its own and would refuse to accept firmware updates or even reset itself to the factory firmware default. Kudos to the Mothership in Denmark and Brad Kaye at CI for the support and crazy workarounds to get my IQ4 to finally accept and update to the latest firmware. I'm still not sure about the advice to dance around the IQ4150 naked, shaking a bloody chicken leg, and chanting "all hail Dante,"---but Brad Kaye assures me that it is quite normal procedure.

    Now if only the Mothership can accelerate attention and resources towards the IQ4 platform...

    ken

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    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    Quote Originally Posted by onasj View Post
    Interesting observations, Paul. I have not had a chance yet to take any frame-averaged images but my IQ4 nevertheless has the bug. I may have touched the "sigma" button that opens the frame averaging menu. But I definitely have not captured any frame-averaged images with it, yet my back still has the bug. If you are correct that a freshly updated IQ4 won't have the bug, then perhaps simply opening the frame averaging menu causes the problem?

    Kudos to Steve/CI for posting about the bug on the CI website; other dealers and Phase One should do the same given that photographers who are using the latest firmware will likely be capturing in a lower quality than intended.

    I agree with most other posters in this thread that this bug *is* a big deal, not only for the (small but very expensive!) quality difference between 14 and 16 bit, but also for what it says about Phase One's continued firmware issues and counterproductive lack of communication about fixing serious bugs.

    Thank you Onasj.

    I also have reached out to every one of my clients who purchased IQ4 150 digital backs from me to alert them.

    However, it came to my attention from one of my clients they thought that my stated impression the software was still beta (public beta) was an attempt to make excuses for Phase One and put the onus on the client. Nothing could be further from my intent.

    First, I want to state with clarity that it does now appear to me this firmware was released as a non beta release. However, we had a beta release for a short time before this release and were surprised to see it released so soon afterward and also thought this was to be an expanded public beta. Because the version number is identical to the beta version we were using. Regardless, this does not seem to be beta software.

    However - importantly! - regardless whether it was beta or not beta, my point was only to warn those to be careful (if it was beta). And beta or not, I still feel it is unacceptable for a flaw of that significance to be released in a firmware. I called Phase One to task on this (and dealers as well) in my opening statement above. Even if it had been beta, I would have felt it unacceptable to release it with an issue of this magnitude.


    Steve Hendrix/CI
    Last edited by Steve Hendrix; 15th July 2019 at 06:59.
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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    ** Important Update:

    Brad Kaye and I spent some time this morning going through the Frame Averaging Bug.

    Some things need to be clarified.

    Facts (at least as far as we can tell from our work this morning):

    If you restart your IQ4 and it shows 16 bit anything, it will not be shooting at 16 bit for anything.

    Single frames will be shot at 14 bit S.

    Frame averaged shots will be shot at 14 bit L.

    This is notable, because the single frame shots are not only 14 bit, they 14 bit compressed. At least the frame averaged shots are not compressed. There is currently nothing you can do to get your frame averaged shot to capture in anything but 14 bit L. You can, however, get your single frame shots to capture in 16 bit.

    There are two methods:

    * Choose a 14 bit mode. Then choose a 16 bit mode. You will then capture at 16 bit (for single fame shots) until you restart.

    Alternatively:
    * Take a frame averaged shot. After the frame averaged shot, your single shot mode will now accurately reflect the 16 bit mode choice.

    You will need to do this each time you restart.


    Checking:

    * You can verify by checking the remaining capacity on your media card (14 bit will increase capacity by a significant factor, around 2x).

    Alternatively:
    * In Capture One, you can view the bit mode in the metadata, or also check the actual size of the file.

    Brad and I wondered whether frame averaging was even intended to be available in 16 bit, but we've been told by Phase One that it was, that it previously had worked in 16 bit mode, but between then and now, something had gummed that up. We also confirmed the sample files from Paul Reiffer were displyaing 16bit mode in Capture One metadata.

    We were informed that a fix is coming, but do not have a date. ASAP would be not a moment too soon.


    Steve Hendrix/CI
    Last edited by Steve Hendrix; 15th July 2019 at 08:31.
    Steve Hendrix, Sales Manager, www.captureintegration.com (e-mail Me)
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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix View Post
    There is currently nothing you can do to get your frame averaged shot to capture in anything but 14 bit L.
    Interesting. the back certainly “thinks” its shooting in 16bit when frame averaging if your back is set to 16bit because it will only allow a gapless capture at ½ second, and if you switch to 14bit you can get to gapless capture at ¼ second.

    I just checked my files from my last shoot and all the frame averaged shots are about 30% smaller than the standard shots.
    wayne
    My gallery
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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    We've been told by Phase One R+D that the cause of the issue has been found and a fix is currently being tested. Will update when there is more to update on.

    Note: The brevity of this update does not reflect on how seriously messed up I think this is. There's just nothing new to be said that I didn't say in earlier posts.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183
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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    Any news from P1 or P1 dealers on when a fix might be coming? Occasionally forgetting to reset the IQ settings before capturing remains very >< (for those who watch South Park).



    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    We've been told by Phase One R+D that the cause of the issue has been found and a fix is currently being tested. Will update when there is more to update on.

    Note: The brevity of this update does not reflect on how seriously messed up I think this is. There's just nothing new to be said that I didn't say in earlier posts.

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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    I am sure a beta is being tested hopefully by now. But all quiet on the Western Front.

    Anyone testing has been mute.

    Paul C

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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    I spoke with a Phase One rep who said the Mothership was hot on it. I'd expect a fix soon (fingers-crossed).

    I did see another version of the Frame Averaging "Labs" firmware/feature in which the selection of frames could be done by slider (hold on the screen and slide left and right) which is imminently easier and faster to select frames than tapping the screen +/- signs.

    I hope the slider is in the final version of the Frame Averaging feature.

    ken

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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    We’ve been testing a beta of the fix.

    Should be more news next week.

    Brevity of post due to caring for baby.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183
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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    I received a copy of the beta firmware this afternoon, probably because I created the original case. Seems to work well. I cycled through all the format options and it stuck like it should when cycling power. I tried cycling from C1; that worked too. Even pulled the battery from the back while it was on.

    So far so good. This firmware updated much faster than others. I think end of next week or so is when they plan to release it, unless they find something wrong...

    Dave
    Last edited by dchew; 4 Weeks Ago at 16:25.
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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    We’ve been testing a beta of the fix.

    Should be more news next week.

    Brevity of post due to caring for baby.
    We now expect the public release of this firmware fix to occur tomorrow (Thursday July 25).
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183
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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    We now expect the public release of this firmware fix to occur tomorrow (Thursday July 25).
    Hoping this FW update/fix comes with 4 more feature updates
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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    Quote Originally Posted by RLB View Post
    Hoping this FW update/fix comes with 4 more feature updates
    It will not have any new features. Given the rather serious nature of the bug they focused exclusively on fixing that bug and testing to make sure they didn't create any new ones.

    But hopefully new Feature Updates will come more quickly in the future.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183
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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    It will not have any new features. Given the rather serious nature of the bug they focused exclusively on fixing that bug and testing to make sure they didn't create any new ones.

    But hopefully new Feature Updates will come more quickly in the future.
    Dear Doug,

    I have used the beta FW 5.01 since Friday, courtesy of my dealer, Studio Import, in Norway

    I have been shooting in a remote location in Lakho national park in Norway, so fortunately my dealer
    Studio Import in Norway managed to get a copy of the beta FW sent tome in the field, so I could avoid
    the file format bug.

    Beta FW 5.01, seems to be working without ant serious issues.

    FW 5.01 seems stable, and could/should be released soon.

    Best regards

    Trond

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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    Looks like P1 has put the fix up for the rest of the photographers. I have downloaded and installed it.

    Note, update seems to be basically a bit switch, as it only takes about 2 minutes to complete unlike all previous IQ/XF updates that take up to 5 to 8 minutes and require the long period of LCD black out on the IQ4, (only see the blue light at bottom). But I can confirm on start up if set to 16bit EX, count is correct now.

    List of issues, quite long.

    Known Issues and Limitations (IQ4)
    We are working on a firmware update to come with additional functionality and correction of the following known Issues and limitations:
    • The Automated Frame Averaging will not automatically show a preview of the resulting image on the IQ4 once finished. Please review the image be using the Viewer, Browser or Tool Viewer.
    • Note that when you decide to stop the Automated Frame Averaging sequence before time, it will take more than double the selected exposure time to finalize the process. The IQ4 will not currently give any feedback that it is finalize the process, so please wait.
    • Under some conditions when using Automated Frame Averaging, individual Frames of 2.0s will require the XF to be manually exited from the exposure via the XF Shutter Release Button.
    • When using Automated Frame Averaging in conjunction with the IIQ 16 Extended file format, the total number of frames changes as the sequence is started. However, feature works as intended.
    • Automated Frame Averaging doesn’t work correctly when the IIQ 14 Sensor+ file format is used as the sequence never completes. Please use another file format.
    • The Direct Image Transfer feature only transfers RAW files, not the JPEG versions. If SD Storage is set to Off, the files on the SD card will not be transferred. Likewise, if the SD Storage is set to Primary Storage, the files on the XQD card will not be transferred.
    • The IQ4 will not work correctly with Capture One Styles created in Capture One version 10 or earlier. If you have an old style that you wish to use on the IQ4, please apply it to an image in Capture One and then save it as a new style before importing it to the IQ4.
    • You can include all of Capture One Pro’s image adjustments as a Custom IQ Style. While Capture One Inside on the IQ4 can render most of them, it cannot display them all. This discrepancy will be taken care of automatically as the IQ4 will disregard those not supported, and the all included adjustments will be retained and rendered once the RAW files are opened in Capture One Pro.
    • You can currently not assign a static IP address on the IQ4 for WiFi and Ethernet connections, so please use a network which can assign an IP address (DHCP).
    • Custom White Balance setting applies to the next captured image(s) only.

    Paul C
    Paul Caldwell
    [email protected]
    www.photosofarkansas.com
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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    Quote Originally Posted by trond View Post
    Dear Doug,

    I have used the beta FW 5.01 since Friday, courtesy of my dealer, Studio Import, in Norway

    I have been shooting in a remote location in Lakho national park in Norway, so fortunately my dealer
    Studio Import in Norway managed to get a copy of the beta FW sent tome in the field, so I could avoid
    the file format bug.
    Indeed; dealers received a beta of this fix, but you can imagine most of us were a bit gun shy to widely distribute. While the bug in the previous firmware was unacceptable and serious, it was also a known-issue that had a known-workaround. "The devil you know"

    I'm still admittedly gun shy; if users aren't otherwise in a big hurry I'd give it a few more days while DT, other dealers, and early adopters jump in and make sure there isn't yet another bug lurking in here.

    Twice bitten, thrice shy. Phase One has a bit of work to do to earn back our trust. But at least they confirmed the bug almost immediately and got its fix out relatively quickly. That's a good first step.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183
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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post
    Note, update seems to be basically a bit switch, as it only takes about 2 minutes to complete unlike all previous IQ/XF updates that take up to 5 to 8 minutes and require the long period of LCD black out on the IQ4, (only see the blue light at bottom).
    Yes, it's a very focused/narrow update.

    Notably the speed of the update will, of course, depend on what firmware you are coming from.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    .........
    • When using Automated Frame Averaging in conjunction with the IIQ 16 Extended file format, the total number of frames changes as the sequence is started. However, feature works as intended.
    ........
    The information is incorrect. None of them tested again (I can not believe it).

    Correct is. The FA function works only in 14 bits L. If you select IIQ 16 Extend or only IIQ 16, then the estimated number of formats is displayed in the FA. When the FA sequence is started, it always takes the number that indicates and requires the format IIQ 14 bit L (logically the FA function only writes 14 bits L).

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post
    .........
    • Automated Frame Averaging doesn’t work correctly when the IIQ 14 Sensor+ file format is used as the sequence never completes. Please use another file format.
    ........
    IQ4150 not when selecting IIQ14 + in conjunction with the FA function. IQ4150 always writes a normal 14 bit L file. IQ4 Achromatic behaves as described above and will never finish. Both IQ4 and both XF of me have absolutely the same firmware. There is much more in the bad ...


    still...
    Picture display from about ~ 350% is still mushy.


    Greeting Gerd

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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    Yes, I downloaded the firmware about 2 hours before Paul's contribution. I have no other sources except the official channels.

    Test it out for a moment. You come - as far as the 14-bit L format is concerned with the FA function - immediately to the same result.

    Greeting Gerd

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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Frame averaged 16 bit .jpeg 
Views:	9 
Size:	216.8 KB 
ID:	143105Name:  file sizes .jpeg
Views: 292
Size:  142.1 KBClick image for larger version. 

Name:	non frame average 16 bit,jpg.jpeg 
Views:	5 
Size:	216.5 KB 
ID:	143104

    Gerd is correct.

    See attached screen shots:

    Image 778 through 781 are were all captured in with back set to 16bit EX, all show low 14 bit resolution capture, and is also shown from screen print of file sizes.

    With latest firmware, Frame Averaged images are only 114MB, this is the size of 14Bit low rez.

    You can record at 16 EX with no problem, files are 179 to 190MB, once you switch to Frame averaging, back records the smaller file sizes, even with 16bit EX selected.

    When you go back to normal mode in 16bit EX, files go back to full size.

    But they did fix the issue of everything going to 14 bit, i.e. when you start up, with camera set to 16bit EX, count is correct and image appear to be recorded correctly


    No comment, but will say amazed.

    Paul C

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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	778 confirmation Frame Average .jpg 
Views:	4 
Size:	216.3 KB 
ID:	143107

    Just confirmation in C1 that 778 was a Frame Average

    Paul C

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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post

    Gerd is correct.

    See attached screen shots:

    Image 778 through 781 are were all captured in with back set to 16bit EX, all show low 14 bit resolution capture, and is also shown from screen print of file sizes.

    With latest firmware, Frame Averaged images are only 114MB, this is the size of 14Bit low rez.

    You can record at 16 EX with no problem, files are 179 to 190MB, once you switch to Frame averaging, back records the smaller file sizes, even with 16bit EX selected.

    When you go back to normal mode in 16bit EX, files go back to full size.

    But they did fix the issue of everything going to 14 bit, i.e. when you start up, with camera set to 16bit EX, count is correct and image appear to be recorded correctly


    No comment, but will say amazed.

    Paul C

    It has been our understanding that for now Frame Averaging will remain at 14 bit L quality, with 16 bit availability in the future. The read me notes may have jumped the gun a bit on this change, as our communication with Phase One indicated that frame Averaging was initially intended to be in 14bit L mode, and an update in the future would offer 16 bit options. As such, we (Capture Integration) see this then as not a bug, but as an intended limited release. And Phase One infomred of this even before the initial bug was detected, so this is not something new with this release or something that they did not "fix". It was intentional (for now).


    Steve Hendrix/CI
    Steve Hendrix, Sales Manager, www.captureintegration.com (e-mail Me)
    Authorized Reseller Digital Cam: • Phase One | Fuji | Leica | Sinar •
    Authorized Reseller TechCam: • Alpa | Cambo | Arca Swiss | Sinar •

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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    Steve,

    A bit surprised by your post and quote.

    If Phase One planned for frame averaging to be only 14 bit, why was not this ever mentioned by any dealer or P1, instead it was sent out with not mention. The whole issue of 14 bit vs 16 bit came up in previous posts, and it was confirmed that the "beta" shots were indeed shot in 16 bit, even the frame averaged ones. These are the shots that P1 provided, which I no longer have, but it was reiterated that those were supposedly in 16 bit.

    There was no mention in the read me provided by Phase One along with all the other "exceptions to this firmware" that the photographer should expect 14 low resolution image quality for frame averaging. I downloaded it along with firmware.

    I guess this will addressed in a later firmware, along with all the other problems and issues etc. or maybe not as the direction from Phase One is very unclear.

    For sure in the marketing literature Phase One should mention that Frame Averaging is a low quality 14 output (that is their own terminology) as Phase One has always stated that 16 bit image quality is one of their standards.

    Paul C

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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix View Post
    It has been our understanding that for now Frame Averaging will remain at 14 bit L quality, with 16 bit availability in the future. The read me notes may have jumped the gun a bit on this change, as our communication with Phase One indicated that frame Averaging was initially intended to be in 14bit L mode, and an update in the future would offer 16 bit options. As such, we (Capture Integration) see this then as not a bug, but as an intended limited release. And Phase One infomred of this even before the initial bug was detected, so this is not something new with this release or something that they did not "fix". It was intentional (for now).
    Errr... what?

    That does not match my understanding. If there's been a purposeful change to only allow 14-bit capture for frame averaging it was not communicated to me, is not noted in the release notes, and represents a reduction in capability from the previous firmware.

    I'm really left scratching my head here and don't expect to have any answers earlier than tomorrow.
    Last edited by dougpeterson; 3 Weeks Ago at 09:57.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix View Post
    It has been our understanding that for now Frame Averaging will remain at 14 bit L quality, with 16 bit availability in the future. The read me notes may have jumped the gun a bit on this change, as our communication with Phase One indicated that frame Averaging was initially intended to be in 14bit L mode, and an update in the future would offer 16 bit options. As such, we (Capture Integration) see this then as not a bug, but as an intended limited release. And Phase One infomred of this even before the initial bug was detected, so this is not something new with this release or something that they did not "fix". It was intentional (for now).


    Steve Hendrix/CI
    I ordered two cheseburgers years ago at the "hot witch" (german fastfoot chain). When the food came I opened the burgers and asked where the cheese is? The waiters answer which cheese? I answer I have ordered Cheseburger. The waitress answered - they are only named that way.

    That's exactly how I feel right now. In many cases ...

    Greeting Gerd
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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    Selling Ferraris is already difficult—selling Ferraris with a built-in 55 mph speed limit is virtually impossible, and contradicts the company’s ethos, rationale for purchasing, and brand positioning, even though for 95% of applications you won’t need more than 55 mph.

    Phase is all about uncompromising image quality. Frame stacking is largely motivated by maximizing image quality. It’s baffling that any form of frame averaging would be released that forces image quality downward, even if just by a little.
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    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    Errr... what?

    That does not match my understanding. If there's been a purposeful change to only allow 14-bit capture for frame averaging it was not communicated to me, is not noted in the release notes, and represents a reduction in capability from the previous firmware.

    I'm really left scratching my head here and don't expect to have any answers earlier than tomorrow.

    Well getting clear understanding from Phase One has not always been easy has it?

    I will say it again - Our understanding from Phase One is that the 14Bit L mode for Frame Averaging is a temporary mode, until they have the 16 Bit Mode ready. Well, this part at least is factual. It does shoot in 14 Bit Mode, and Phase One has told us that it will eventually shoot in 16 Bit Mode. The sample files were produced in 16 Bit Mode, but apparently there is more work that Phase One wants to do with the 16Bit Mode for Frame Averaging. In the meantime they have released it in 14 Bit Mode. Importantly, 14 Bit L, not 14 Bit S.

    And they have acknowledged this in our communications. They've said nothing about the 14 Bit L Mode being a bug. While it may not be a bug, it is certainly a limitation. With that said, from the tests we have shot, for certain situations even 14 Bit Mode L Frame Averaged captures provide superior results vs 16 Bit files shot in single frame mode. And perhaps that is whay Phase One decided to launch it for now with 14 Bit L Mode the only option for Frame Averaging. Of this last statement, I am only surmising.

    You can call it a bug, you can call it a here you go for now. Irregardless, it works and does even now provide some advantages. Why Phase One could not wait until they had a 16 bit mode ready I have no idea.


    Don't shoot the Messenger.


    Steve Hendrix/CI
    Steve Hendrix, Sales Manager, www.captureintegration.com (e-mail Me)
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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix View Post
    You can call it a bug, you can call it a here you go for now. Irregardless, it works and does even now provide some advantages. Why Phase One could not wait until they had a 16 bit mode ready I have no idea.
    I call it a disappointment and a step in the wrong direction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix View Post
    Don't shoot the Messenger.
    I intend to harass my messenger quite a bit; just as soon as mine shows up. It sounds like Phase One told you/CI to expect this which only deepens my confusion as DT was not told despite being in continuous contact with P1, and again, it's not stated in the beta release notes, public/final release notes, or the dealer notification email. And in fact the only mention of 14 bit vs 16 bit is a note in the release notes that implies the exact opposite: "When using Automated Frame Averaging in conjunction with the IIQ 16 Extended file format [...]".

    If Phase One intended Frame Averaging (temporarily or permanently) to be limited to 14-bit capture they did a pretty poor job of communicating that.
    Last edited by dougpeterson; 3 Weeks Ago at 12:32.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    wow... don’t even know what to say. Embarrassing would come to mind.

    Phase one has to wake up. I bought a 50k Produkt which feels more like a cheap Kickstarter project.... Phase really have to get their ******* act together. It’s not over 8 months...

    What’s wrong? Is the whole IQ4 hardware bugged and we will need an IQ5 in a few months to get everything running?

    I will state it again, while I’m happy with the actual quality, the rest experience has been terrible and my patient runs out. The GFX100 is a dream and does 99% of what my phase stuff does, for 1/6th or a price.
    Christopher Hauser
    http://www.chauser.eu

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    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    I call it a disappointment and a step in the wrong direction.

    I agree the decision to release a great new feature in a limited version is a questionable decision. However, while we certainly don't mind calling Phase One on the carpet, as we have done countless times (and it is nice to see you joining in this), I see the lack of clear communication as the real failing here.

    A 14 bit L mode for frame averaging offers real benefits vs not having it, as evidenced by the architectural shoot that Brad Kaye performed toward the bottom of our Frame Averaging testing;

    https://captureintegration.com/phase...rly-available/

    So, IQ4 users today have a choice, do nothing, and wait for the 16 bit mode, or take advantage of what they can do with the 14 bit mode until then.

    The sin is really about how long it seems to be taking Phase One to accomplish some of their feature/firmware objectives to full fruition, but more, that they are doing a terrible job of communicating clearly.


    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    I intend to harass my messenger quite a bit; just as soon as mine shows up. It sounds like Phase One told you/CI to expect this which only deepens my confusion as DT was not told, and again, it's not in the beta release notes, public/final release notes, or the dealer notification email. And in fact the only mention of bit depth or file-format is a note in the release notes that implies the exact opposite: "When using Automated Frame Averaging in conjunction with the IIQ 16 Extended file format [...]".

    If Phase One intended Frame Averaging (temporarily or permanently) to be limited to 14-bit capture they sure as heck dropped the ball on communicating that well.
    As do we. Your statement that "Phase One told you/CI to expect this" is 100% incorrect, nor do I appreciate you even suggesting it because it implies that we knew the files were only 14 bit before our clients did and this is 100% not the case. When the bug was first reported by Dave Chew - that is when we went back to Phase One and had a long discussion about the 14 bit single frame bug, but also discussed the now realized only 14 bit L mode for frame averaging. This was when they told us of their original intent to provide 14 bit until they had the 16 bit mode ready. I would appreciate it if you would address your statement regarding when we knew of this.


    Steve Hendrix/CI
    Steve Hendrix, Sales Manager, www.captureintegration.com (e-mail Me)
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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix View Post
    As do we. Your statement that "Phase One told you/CI to expect this" is 100% incorrect, nor do I appreciate you even suggesting it because it implies that we knew the files were only 14 bit before our clients did and this is 100% not the case. When the bug was first reported by Dave Chew - that is when we went back to Phase One and had a long discussion about the 14 bit single frame bug, but also discussed the now realized only 14 bit L mode for frame averaging. This was when they told us of their original intent to provide 14 bit until they had the 16 bit mode ready. I would appreciate it if you would address your statement regarding when we knew of this.
    (bolding mine)

    Steve, I'm not impugning you. I didn't mean that you were aware of the bug reported by Dave Chew. I meant what you wrote in bold: that P1 told you they intended to provide 14-bit until they had 16-bit ready for frame averaging. DT did not get that memo, and that memo was not in the beta release notes, final release notes, or dealer email.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    @steve&doug

    Honestly, what you both are doing is great, but there is no need to push it back and forth... you are great dealers and I hope you don’t need to fight each other that much.

    In the end, it’s phase one fault and their horrible communication and update speed. If you loose a customer it’s certainly not because of a small thing you said, but because Phase is messing up time and time again.
    Christopher Hauser
    http://www.chauser.eu
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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    (bolding mine)

    Steve, I'm not impugning you. I didn't mean that you were aware of the bug reported by Dave Chew. I meant what you wrote in bold: that P1 told you they intended to provide 14-bit until they had 16-bit ready for frame averaging. DT did not get that memo, and that memo was not in the beta release notes, final release notes, or dealer email.

    It was not a memo, it was a discussion.

    And the discussion happened after Dave Chew reported the bug, not before.


    Steve Hendrix/CI
    Steve Hendrix, Sales Manager, www.captureintegration.com (e-mail Me)
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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    @steve&doug

    Honestly, what you both are doing is great, but there is no need to push it back and forth... you are great dealers and I hope you don’t need to fight each other that much.

    In the end, it’s phase one fault and their horrible communication and update speed. If you loose a customer it’s certainly not because of a small thing you said, but because Phase is messing up time and time again.

    Christopher, I appreciate you saying that, it means a lot.

    Integrity to me personally, and to Capture Integration as a whole, is everything.

    I just want to make sure there is clarification. Don't worry, if anything ever gets too heavy with me and Doug, we always work it out offline.


    Steve Hendrix/CI
    Last edited by Steve Hendrix; 3 Weeks Ago at 13:46.
    Steve Hendrix, Sales Manager, www.captureintegration.com (e-mail Me)
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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    The Shame is that P1 had it working in 16 bit mode with the first beta that went out "selected" photographers, and dealers. No mention, or words as to what changed? Back overheating? not enough processing? It would be nice to know since it did work in 16 bit mode.

    Now, it's all OK to be 14 bit. I would much rather have the ability to use it in 16 bit and make the decision for myself. Nothing seemed to be wrong with the images that were sent from the first beta. So it implies to me that the IQ4 can't handle the processing and odds are never will so the process has been released as a compromise. Brings back memories of the P45+ and the backs that couldn't get to 1 hour exposures without being sent back to P1 for a upgrade due to fact that P1 switched component sources.

    My issue is that P1 marketed this indirectly via the dealer channels and their web marketing as a 16 bit feature, as P1 has always claimed even since the CCD day's they had true 16 bit image quality. It's been a flagship feature that differentiated them from the rest of the pack.

    Original firmware is released, dropping Frame averaged output to 14 bit, obviously intended that way by P1

    Opps. P1 forgot to check the fact that a bit got swapped on the output quality settings, so now everything gets written at 14 bit Low.

    OK P1 fixed that bit swap, and brings frame averaging out again, very quietly, no fan fare, no mention that it's not going to support 16 quality. THAT should have been covered in the readme and listed with all the other KNOWN problems which still existed, (see my earlier post where all of these were listed, around 10 of them). That is being up front and clear.

    Paul C
    Paul Caldwell
    [email protected]
    www.photosofarkansas.com
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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerd View Post
    The information is incorrect. None of them tested again (I can not believe it).

    Correct is. The FA function works only in 14 bits L. If you select IIQ 16 Extend or only IIQ 16, then the estimated number of formats is displayed in the FA. When the FA sequence is started, it always takes the number that indicates and requires the format IIQ 14 bit L (logically the FA function only writes 14 bits L).



    IQ4150 not when selecting IIQ14 + in conjunction with the FA function. IQ4150 always writes a normal 14 bit L file. IQ4 Achromatic behaves as described above and will never finish. Both IQ4 and both XF of me have absolutely the same firmware. There is much more in the bad ...


    still...
    Picture display from about ~ 350% is still mushy.


    Greeting Gerd
    So what is an achromatic IQ4 user to think NOW?

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    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post
    The Shame is that P1 had it working in 16 bit mode with the first beta that went out "selected" photographers, and dealers. No mention, or words as to what changed? Back overheating? not enough processing? It would be nice to know since it did work in 16 bit mode.

    Now, it's all OK to be 14 bit. I would much rather have the ability to use it in 16 bit and make the decision for myself. Nothing seemed to be wrong with the images that were sent from the first beta. So it implies to me that the IQ4 can't handle the processing and odds are never will so the process has been released as a compromise. Brings back memories of the P45+ and the backs that couldn't get to 1 hour exposures without being sent back to P1 for a upgrade due to fact that P1 switched component sources.

    My issue is that P1 marketed this indirectly via the dealer channels and their web marketing as a 16 bit feature, as P1 has always claimed even since the CCD day's they had true 16 bit image quality. It's been a flagship feature that differentiated them from the rest of the pack.

    Original firmware is released, dropping Frame averaged output to 14 bit, obviously intended that way by P1

    Opps. P1 forgot to check the fact that a bit got swapped on the output quality settings, so now everything gets written at 14 bit Low.

    OK P1 fixed that bit swap, and brings frame averaging out again, very quietly, no fan fare, no mention that it's not going to support 16 quality. THAT should have been covered in the readme and listed with all the other KNOWN problems which still existed, (see my earlier post where all of these were listed, around 10 of them). That is being up front and clear.

    Paul C

    I agree with this 100% Paul (the bold).

    We never had 16 bit files in frame averaging with our beta. We didn't even know to double check the bit mode until your and Dave Chew's alert. And it was only then that we went back to check the Phase One (not our) sample files and saw that they were 16 bit.

    So Paul Reiffer had a 16 bit version, but we did not with our beta (and I am assuming no other dealers did either).

    Who knows what they encountered with the earlier 16 bit files, but something made them wait on bringing the feature out as 16 bit. From their standpoint, I don't see any benefit in explaining what the issues were with the 16 bit mode in frame averaging. It could have been something that was not produced in the sample files that you didn't see. The sample files certainly did not encompass every possible application for frame averaging. And as long as a 16 bit mode shows up not too far off in the future, and it is just a simple firmware update, no harm done.

    But per your final paragraph that I bolded, where they are causing harm and distress with their user base (and yes, with dealers too!) is the lack of clear communication. This could have easily been stated so expectations were appropriate. As it stands, expectations are still not being addressed by Phase One. Sometimes they are their own worst enemy. Much of this could be alleviated by a statement with the new firmware that explains that the frame averaged shots are 14 bit, and that 16 bit will be available (by some rough time frame), and that it will simply be a firmware update at that time for the 16 bit mode. This was all within their grasp.


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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    I hope to have further information on this tomorrow; if not, soon thereafter. I'm signing off for the day.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    Steve, thanks, well said, I fully agree. Better worded than my more emotional post.

    I am moving on.

    Paul C

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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    I was about to download the latest fix 5.01.0 released today, so that I am shooting at least all my single photos in 16 bit (kept forgetting to reset every time I turned on the camera). Just to be clear then; the new Firmware 5.01.0 fix will keep me in 16 bit normally for single shots; is this correct?
    I understand that frame averaging will still be in 14 bit mode for the time being.
    Thanks for the help.

    John

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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    Quote Originally Posted by Smoothjazz View Post
    I was about to download the latest fix 5.01.0 released today, so that I am shooting at least all my single photos in 16 bit (kept forgetting to reset every time I turned on the camera). Just to be clear then; the new Firmware 5.01.0 fix will keep me in 16 bit normally for single shots; is this correct?
    I understand that frame averaging will still be in 14 bit mode for the time being.
    Thanks for the help.

    John
    Yes, John. That is correct.

    Dave
    How glorious a greeting the sun gives the mountains! - John Muir

    davechewphotography.com

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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    Yes. You will stay in 16 bit unless FA is used. Even after FA you still remain in 16 bit.

    Paul C

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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    Not to excuse P1's poor communication, but I've been shooting with the update for several days now and continue to delighted with the results. Yeah, I'd prefer FA at 16 bits, but it's awfully impressive at 14 bits. Who'd have thought of noise free images (in the camera) at max ISO?
    Let's enjoy the benefits more and worry about 2 bits less...
    Bill CB

    www.billcaulfeild-browne.ca
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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Caulfeild-Browne View Post
    Not to excuse P1's poor communication, but I've been shooting with the update for several days now and continue to delighted with the results. Yeah, I'd prefer FA at 16 bits, but it's awfully impressive at 14 bits. Who'd have thought of noise free images (in the camera) at max ISO?
    Let's enjoy the benefits more and worry about 2 bits less...
    Camera's have never actually been 16bits contrary to most claims. The hardware was just not present so people were really shooting in 14bits via the hardware adc's. AFAIK the 100MP cmos was the first chip that could actually do 16 bit ADC.

    Anything claiming contrary is just false marketing.

    Practicly speaking the main benefit of 16bit vs 14bit is latitude. But frame averaging does give a lot more latitude to files anyway. So the difference might be less so.

    Only time will tell when you can experiment with both.

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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    Through frame averaging you ‘could’ increase the dynamic range from the 14 to 16 bit. You’ll need at least 4 frames for doing this.


    Regards,
    Jaap.

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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    Quote Originally Posted by Craig Stocks View Post
    Sadly it’s becoming a bit embarrassing to own an IQ4150. I’m really concerned about Phase One’s ongoing incompetence.
    Totally right. I’m going to look into the new Sony.

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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    Am I the only one who somewhat loses the will to live when reading this list? I’d quite like to concentrate on the creative process and the usual technical challenges without having to remember that the back only does colour images when set to IQ23LS mode provided that it’s not a Tuesday unless it’s the third Tuesday of the month (other than June) in which case you have to use it upside down.

    Get real Phase.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post
    Looks like P1 has put the fix up for the rest of the photographers. I have downloaded and installed it.

    Note, update seems to be basically a bit switch, as it only takes about 2 minutes to complete unlike all previous IQ/XF updates that take up to 5 to 8 minutes and require the long period of LCD black out on the IQ4, (only see the blue light at bottom). But I can confirm on start up if set to 16bit EX, count is correct now.

    List of issues, quite long.

    Known Issues and Limitations (IQ4)
    We are working on a firmware update to come with additional functionality and correction of the following known Issues and limitations:
    • The Automated Frame Averaging will not automatically show a preview of the resulting image on the IQ4 once finished. Please review the image be using the Viewer, Browser or Tool Viewer.
    • Note that when you decide to stop the Automated Frame Averaging sequence before time, it will take more than double the selected exposure time to finalize the process. The IQ4 will not currently give any feedback that it is finalize the process, so please wait.
    • Under some conditions when using Automated Frame Averaging, individual Frames of 2.0s will require the XF to be manually exited from the exposure via the XF Shutter Release Button.
    • When using Automated Frame Averaging in conjunction with the IIQ 16 Extended file format, the total number of frames changes as the sequence is started. However, feature works as intended.
    • Automated Frame Averaging doesn’t work correctly when the IIQ 14 Sensor+ file format is used as the sequence never completes. Please use another file format.
    • The Direct Image Transfer feature only transfers RAW files, not the JPEG versions. If SD Storage is set to Off, the files on the SD card will not be transferred. Likewise, if the SD Storage is set to Primary Storage, the files on the XQD card will not be transferred.
    • The IQ4 will not work correctly with Capture One Styles created in Capture One version 10 or earlier. If you have an old style that you wish to use on the IQ4, please apply it to an image in Capture One and then save it as a new style before importing it to the IQ4.
    • You can include all of Capture One Pro’s image adjustments as a Custom IQ Style. While Capture One Inside on the IQ4 can render most of them, it cannot display them all. This discrepancy will be taken care of automatically as the IQ4 will disregard those not supported, and the all included adjustments will be retained and rendered once the RAW files are opened in Capture One Pro.
    • You can currently not assign a static IP address on the IQ4 for WiFi and Ethernet connections, so please use a network which can assign an IP address (DHCP).
    • Custom White Balance setting applies to the next captured image(s) only.

    Paul C
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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    That is just a small list of stuff missing or not working....

    Not even talking about stuff like adhoc WiFi......


    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Am I the only one who somewhat loses the will to live when reading this list? I’d quite like to concentrate on the creative process and the usual technical challenges without having to remember that the back only does colour images when set to IQ23LS mode provided that it’s not a Tuesday unless it’s the third Tuesday of the month (other than June) in which case you have to use it upside down.

    Get real Phase.
    Christopher Hauser
    http://www.chauser.eu
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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    I find I have very conflicted feelings. On the one hand I'm angry at P1 and feel misled for having purchased an IQ4150 and finding promised and expected features aren't available. And Phase One's continued silence and seeming incompetence just adds to the feeling.

    In reality I shouldn't be surprised. From my perspective P1 has a long history of flawed genius. I bought into the P1 family in 2011 with a p65+ and DF body. The DF was pretty much a joke with its AA battery power and frequent lock-ups. I upgraded to an IQ260 which was great - but only after my first one was replaced. Then I upgraded to the XF which is a fantastic platform, once the battery door was fixed and the viewfinder was upgraded so it wouldn't fall off. Next came the IQ3100, the pinnacle of the original IQ platform and released as a mature product. It too worked great once my original back was replaced.

    So why should I be surprised that the IQ4150 with an entirely new operating system has some launch problems? That seems to be Phase One's standard practice. I would dearly love to see them develop the ability to launch a product that works as advertised, but mostly I hope they stay in business long enough to get their current products fixed.

    Now, on the other hand, I'm thrilled with the image quality of the IQ4150. Files come out of that back that feel quite a bit better than anything I've experienced before. Color, tone, noise and image flexibility are outstanding.

    So, in the midst of the current kerfuffle I decided to do a quick test to see just how bad 14 bit frame averaged images really are. To my surprise the 14 bit frame averaged sample is quite a bit better than a single 16 bit EX frame, even when pushed quite a bit in post.

    I set up a simple scene lit with mixed daylight and tungsten. I shot four frames, 16 bit EX, 16 bit, 14 bit L and a 200 frame average. I intentionally underexposed it so I could push it in C1. After setting the WB I ended up pushing the exposure slider all the way to the right and also increased contrast and saturation. I copied all adjustments to all frames.

    I've attached a couple 100% samples from the scene. To be honest I didn't see big differences between any of the single frames, even with exposure pushed pretty hard, but the frame average stood well above any of them.

    My conclusion: I'm going to go use my P1 system, enjoy the results and wait (if somewhat impatiently) for a real firmware update.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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  50. #100
    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Am I the only one who somewhat loses the will to live when reading this list? I’d quite like to concentrate on the creative process and the usual technical challenges without having to remember that the back only does colour images when set to IQ23LS mode provided that it’s not a Tuesday unless it’s the third Tuesday of the month (other than June) in which case you have to use it upside down.

    Get real Phase.

    Tim, please don't lose the will to live. And no one else, either!

    I'm already concerned about the remaining hair quantity of everyone here, please don't add one's actual existence to the equation!

    On that note, and to the above list, we've made a post that contains an edit to their list from our findings:

    https://captureintegration.com/iq4-c...ice-release-1/


    The shortcut, if you don't wish to visit our site is:


    From Phase One's Read Me:
    * Under some conditions when using Automated Frame Averaging, individual Frames of 2.0s will require the XF to be manually exited from the exposure via the XF Shutter Release Button.

    * Our own Brad Kaye's amendment to the above is below:
    (This is what the official notes say. but in practice I’ve seen the XF Shutter Release Button remain dead, as are the ‘Stop & Save’ & ‘Abort’ buttons on the top of the camera. The only fix I’ve found if this presents is from the home screen of the IQ4, tap the large Capture button on the IQ4 to initiate a single frame capture which will fire a frame and reset the XF top display – BK)


    Steve Hendrix/CI
    Last edited by Steve Hendrix; 3 Weeks Ago at 07:31.
    Steve Hendrix, Sales Manager, www.captureintegration.com (e-mail Me)
    Authorized Reseller Digital Cam: • Phase One | Fuji | Leica | Sinar •
    Authorized Reseller TechCam: • Alpa | Cambo | Arca Swiss | Sinar •
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