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IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

onasj

Active member
I just tested the IQ4 with latest firmware with my XF (also latest firmware) and the auto ISO appears to work fine. The 16 bit vs 14 bit capture bug is still there with both the XF and with no body (tech cam use), however.

Speaking of auto ISO, the nature of the IQ4 sensor's dynamic range means that Phase One should really be using 1/3 stop auto ISO increments, rather in full stop increments. Indeed, the auto ISO values used by the XF (see http://photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Phase One IQ4 150MP) are actually the worst "bang for the buck" ISO choices— the best being 1/3 stop BELOW each full stop (so ISO 160, 320, 640, 1280, 2500, 5000, 10000, and 20000).
 

kdphotography

Well-known member
....
I still say, this firmware was NOT released as public beta, after rechecking Phase One's main page and doc's, there is no mention of it being a beta with the all the normal literature about use and risk of a beta. Also I know of no other firmware for a IQ that was released as a Public Beta, if anyone knows of one, please correct me. I am fully aware of IQ firmware in beta being given to an end user (I have had it happen) with an understanding that it is a beta and thus be aware of issues. If Phase goes back and changes their release notes on the this firmware to say it's a Public Beta, then shame on them. It's not in the release notes I pulled down on 07/03/19 or yesterday.....
Paul, thanks for being on "the cutting edge" and pinpointing these issues with the IQ4. I picked up my IQ4 "late in the game" in the hopes that Phase would be closer to caught up with the feature updates/firmware updates. While true I did miss many of the frustrations that the earlier adopters experienced, there are still many that remain to be addressed. I was surprised by the totally new interface of the IQ4, so that did impress upon me that Phase One really did/does need to start from ground zero in writing/developing the updates with this new operating system. But alas, IQ4 users are still impatiently waiting for some basic feature sets. The IQ3, imho, albeit without the megapixels of the IQ4150, remains the mature, solid workhorse MFDB to date. More attention and resources need to be dedicated to establishing the flagship IQ4 as the stable workhorse leader.

I had great difficulty updating to the latest "beta" firmware. So while many IQ4 users were out playing with Frame Averaging, I sat back on the sidelines only able to read this forum thread, and without being able to try it, was somewhat befuddled and still trying to get my head around this revolutionary (in my mind) feature called Frame Averaging and how to use it. CI's "Bad Brad" was very helpful working with Phase One in helping me to update my IQ4 to the latest firmware with Frame Averaging. In the course of well over thirty emails and a couple of calls, I do recall (and have the email) in which Brad did mention "in order to run the new beta firmware" (emphasis added by me) that my IQ4 would need to be on a certain prior firmware. It was one sentence and I did not think anything of it as it seemed everyone on Dante's forum was having fun except for me. I also don't recall Phase One labeling this as a beta firmware feature update on its release----or at least it was not described well! In the past, it was always the dealer's who put out warnings to take care with updates until techs could test it.

Waiting for these growing pains to be addressed....

Ken
 

Craig Stocks

Well-known member
You are 100% correct. The firmware was not beta, and this kind of bug simply should not be in a non-beta release of firmware.
Thank you Doug. In situations like this I look for dealers to advocate and fight on behalf of customers rather than make excuses for the manufacturer.
 

Gerd

Active member
I am extremely angry. I lost a day's work (which I have to repeat) before I noticed it.

After the Creative Control Package Update - For me, the image playback works only up to about ~ 350%. For more, only Slush is displayed. Triple Tab 400% = Slush Display, then slowly reduce until we see a picture.

I have this behavior on the IQ4150 and the IQ4 Achromatic. I have not used frame averaging on the IQ4 Achromatic yet - but IQ4 Achromatic will record 14 bit RAW after the update.

Greeting Gerd
 

Pemihan

Well-known member
Boy am I happy I'm still on the IQ3 platform, where I will probably be for a very long time! IMO the IQ4 should not have been shipped before it was completely ready in regards to all specs announced at the launch.
 

dchew

Well-known member
I also have yet to try frame averaging, and obviously my back has this problem.

I just received the back Friday. I started this whole thing because I was trying to figure out what extra XQD cards to buy: 64gb or 120gb. I like having a capacity between 300-500 images per card. More than that I nervous about too many images being lost if a card goes bad, and I rarely shoot more than 100-200 images in a day anyway (unless I’m tethered). On the 3100, a 64gb CF card was perfect: 422 images. I plugged the P1-supplied 64gb card into the new IQ4 150 and it showed a capacity of 566 images. At first, I was happy. 64gb cards are cheaper than 120gb cards! Then I came back to reality and checked the format. No, that was correct: L16IIQEX

How could 150mp file be smaller than a 100mp file? So I looked in C1 and sure enough, the file format said "IIQ S Ex.” After some random poking on the DB I figured out if I cycle the format back and forth, the reported capacity changes to what it should be. I experimented and found out the problem: it gets messed up every time I turn off power. So I texted my dealer to ask him if he heard anything about this, and he said no but he would check with Phase. I told him don’t bother, I will create a case since I really should anyway. At that point, I was convinced it was only my back because I could not believe no one else noticed. I created the case with P1 Saturday morning.

Anyway, Paul and I had been messaging back and forth about live view, so I sent him a message asking if he has noticed this. Again, I figured it was just my back. Paul checked and sure enough, his was doing it too, so he started the thread.

I really think it is a simple firmware problem. There is stray code in there that makes the back mistakenly reset to 14 bits but does not reset the "Ex" format (or anything else) when powered up. That's why C1 shows "IIQ S Ex," which as far as I know is not a format that exists. AND, obviously there is no code to update the LCD screen when that resets. The action of selecting S14IIQ is the only thing that resets everything back to normal.

Dave
 
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Smoothjazz

Active member
Ken,

If it makes you feel any better, I made the same mistake. I could not update the digital back, and after many attempts, realized that I did not have the previous firmware release prior to this one. I also had read this somewhere, and fortunately remembered it too. I plan to try the frame averaging function for the first time today.

Cheers,

John

Paul, thanks for being on "the cutting edge" and pinpointing these issues with the IQ4. I picked up my IQ4 "late in the game" in the hopes that Phase would be closer to caught up with the feature updates/firmware updates. While true I did miss many of the frustrations that the earlier adopters experienced, there are still many that remain to be addressed. I was surprised by the totally new interface of the IQ4, so that did impress upon me that Phase One really did/does need to start from ground zero in writing/developing the updates with this new operating system. But alas, IQ4 users are still impatiently waiting for some basic feature sets. The IQ3, imho, albeit without the megapixels of the IQ4150, remains the mature, solid workhorse MFDB to date. More attention and resources need to be dedicated to establishing the flagship IQ4 as the stable workhorse leader.

I had great difficulty updating to the latest "beta" firmware. So while many IQ4 users were out playing with Frame Averaging, I sat back on the sidelines only able to read this forum thread, and without being able to try it, was somewhat befuddled and still trying to get my head around this revolutionary (in my mind) feature called Frame Averaging and how to use it. CI's "Bad Brad" was very helpful working with Phase One in helping me to update my IQ4 to the latest firmware with Frame Averaging. In the course of well over thirty emails and a couple of calls, I do recall (and have the email) in which Brad did mention "in order to run the new beta firmware" (emphasis added by me) that my IQ4 would need to be on a certain prior firmware. It was one sentence and I did not think anything of it as it seemed everyone on Dante's forum was having fun except for me. I also don't recall Phase One labeling this as a beta firmware feature update on its release----or at least it was not described well! In the past, it was always the dealer's who put out warnings to take care with updates until techs could test it.

Waiting for these growing pains to be addressed....

Ken
 

Landscapelover

Senior Subscriber Member
I've always taught my kids to say "I'm sorry I made a mistake. I will never do it again and I will be more careful".
Someone representing Phase One should really have said something like this and apologize to public. I believe this incidence makes some of the Phase One users start to think whether they want to jump ship to Fuji or Hasselblad.
I have an upcoming trip to Alaska and I was so excited about this hype. I am lucky because my XF is with Phase One in NJ as the body was fallen apart.
Thanks to Paul!

Pramote
 
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algrove

Well-known member
To me there is NO excuse for what we are experiencing with the IQ4150. Like others , such as Ken, I too waited until my sales person assured me that at least the Tech cam use was "about" the same as using my IQ3100's. Wish I had kept at least one now.

Dealers who make excuses for Phase because Phase had to totally rewrite FW for the IQ4150 give me no solice. Dealers who acknowledge Phase errors and short comings right up front and offer work arounds when FW problems are present make me keep coming back.
 

GrahamWelland

Subscriber & Workshop Member
To me there is NO excuse for what we are experiencing with the IQ4150. Like others , such as Ken, I too waited until my sales person assured me that at least the Tech cam use was "about" the same as using my IQ3100's. Wish I had kept at least one now.

Dealers who make excuses for Phase because Phase had to totally rewrite FW for the IQ4150 give me no solice. Dealers who acknowledge Phase errors and short comings right up front and offer work arounds when FW problems are present make me keep coming back.
+1 for me too. I’ve held off, knowing that there would be teething problems that I’d rather others solved first. However, the dealer support is paramount for me when I do make the leap.

My IQ3100 is still rock solid. I’ll upgrade when the IQ4150 has the same reputation.
 

kdphotography

Well-known member
Ken,

If it makes you feel any better, I made the same mistake. I could not update the digital back, and after many attempts, realized that I did not have the previous firmware release prior to this one. I also had read this somewhere, and fortunately remembered it too. I plan to try the frame averaging function for the first time today.

Cheers,

John
I did see the notation about the older firmware being a prerequisite----but for whatever reason, my IQ4 sorta took on a life of its own and would refuse to accept firmware updates or even reset itself to the factory firmware default. Kudos to the Mothership in Denmark and Brad Kaye at CI for the support and crazy workarounds to get my IQ4 to finally accept and update to the latest firmware. I'm still not sure about the advice to dance around the IQ4150 naked, shaking a bloody chicken leg, and chanting "all hail Dante,"---but Brad Kaye assures me that it is quite normal procedure.

Now if only the Mothership can accelerate attention and resources towards the IQ4 platform...

ken
 

Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
Interesting observations, Paul. I have not had a chance yet to take any frame-averaged images but my IQ4 nevertheless has the bug. I may have touched the "sigma" button that opens the frame averaging menu. But I definitely have not captured any frame-averaged images with it, yet my back still has the bug. If you are correct that a freshly updated IQ4 won't have the bug, then perhaps simply opening the frame averaging menu causes the problem?

Kudos to Steve/CI for posting about the bug on the CI website; other dealers and Phase One should do the same given that photographers who are using the latest firmware will likely be capturing in a lower quality than intended.

I agree with most other posters in this thread that this bug *is* a big deal, not only for the (small but very expensive!) quality difference between 14 and 16 bit, but also for what it says about Phase One's continued firmware issues and counterproductive lack of communication about fixing serious bugs.

Thank you Onasj.

I also have reached out to every one of my clients who purchased IQ4 150 digital backs from me to alert them.

However, it came to my attention from one of my clients they thought that my stated impression the software was still beta (public beta) was an attempt to make excuses for Phase One and put the onus on the client. Nothing could be further from my intent.

First, I want to state with clarity that it does now appear to me this firmware was released as a non beta release. However, we had a beta release for a short time before this release and were surprised to see it released so soon afterward and also thought this was to be an expanded public beta. Because the version number is identical to the beta version we were using. Regardless, this does not seem to be beta software.

However - importantly! - regardless whether it was beta or not beta, my point was only to warn those to be careful (if it was beta). And beta or not, I still feel it is unacceptable for a flaw of that significance to be released in a firmware. I called Phase One to task on this (and dealers as well) in my opening statement above. Even if it had been beta, I would have felt it unacceptable to release it with an issue of this magnitude.


Steve Hendrix/CI
 
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Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
** Important Update:

Brad Kaye and I spent some time this morning going through the Frame Averaging Bug.

Some things need to be clarified.

Facts (at least as far as we can tell from our work this morning):

If you restart your IQ4 and it shows 16 bit anything, it will not be shooting at 16 bit for anything.

Single frames will be shot at 14 bit S.

Frame averaged shots will be shot at 14 bit L.

This is notable, because the single frame shots are not only 14 bit, they 14 bit compressed. At least the frame averaged shots are not compressed. There is currently nothing you can do to get your frame averaged shot to capture in anything but 14 bit L. You can, however, get your single frame shots to capture in 16 bit.

There are two methods:

* Choose a 14 bit mode. Then choose a 16 bit mode. You will then capture at 16 bit (for single fame shots) until you restart.

Alternatively:
* Take a frame averaged shot. After the frame averaged shot, your single shot mode will now accurately reflect the 16 bit mode choice.

You will need to do this each time you restart.


Checking:

* You can verify by checking the remaining capacity on your media card (14 bit will increase capacity by a significant factor, around 2x).

Alternatively:
* In Capture One, you can view the bit mode in the metadata, or also check the actual size of the file.

Brad and I wondered whether frame averaging was even intended to be available in 16 bit, but we've been told by Phase One that it was, that it previously had worked in 16 bit mode, but between then and now, something had gummed that up. We also confirmed the sample files from Paul Reiffer were displyaing 16bit mode in Capture One metadata.

We were informed that a fix is coming, but do not have a date. ASAP would be not a moment too soon.


Steve Hendrix/CI
 
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Wayne Fox

Workshop Member
There is currently nothing you can do to get your frame averaged shot to capture in anything but 14 bit L.
Interesting. the back certainly “thinks” its shooting in 16bit when frame averaging if your back is set to 16bit because it will only allow a gapless capture at ½ second, and if you switch to 14bit you can get to gapless capture at ¼ second.

I just checked my files from my last shoot and all the frame averaged shots are about 30% smaller than the standard shots.
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
We've been told by Phase One R+D that the cause of the issue has been found and a fix is currently being tested. Will update when there is more to update on.

Note: The brevity of this update does not reflect on how seriously messed up I think this is. There's just nothing new to be said that I didn't say in earlier posts.
 

onasj

Active member
Any news from P1 or P1 dealers on when a fix might be coming? Occasionally forgetting to reset the IQ settings before capturing remains very >< (for those who watch South Park).



We've been told by Phase One R+D that the cause of the issue has been found and a fix is currently being tested. Will update when there is more to update on.

Note: The brevity of this update does not reflect on how seriously messed up I think this is. There's just nothing new to be said that I didn't say in earlier posts.
 

Paul2660

Well-known member
I am sure a beta is being tested hopefully by now. But all quiet on the Western Front.

Anyone testing has been mute.

Paul C
 

kdphotography

Well-known member
I spoke with a Phase One rep who said the Mothership was hot on it. I'd expect a fix soon (fingers-crossed).

I did see another version of the Frame Averaging "Labs" firmware/feature in which the selection of frames could be done by slider (hold on the screen and slide left and right) which is imminently easier and faster to select frames than tapping the screen +/- signs.

I hope the slider is in the final version of the Frame Averaging feature.

ken
 

dchew

Well-known member
I received a copy of the beta firmware this afternoon, probably because I created the original case. Seems to work well. I cycled through all the format options and it stuck like it should when cycling power. I tried cycling from C1; that worked too. Even pulled the battery from the back while it was on.

So far so good. This firmware updated much faster than others. I think end of next week or so is when they plan to release it, unless they find something wrong...

Dave
 
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