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IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
Hoping this FW update/fix comes with 4 more feature updates :clap:
It will not have any new features. Given the rather serious nature of the bug they focused exclusively on fixing that bug and testing to make sure they didn't create any new ones.

But hopefully new Feature Updates will come more quickly in the future.
 

trond

Member
It will not have any new features. Given the rather serious nature of the bug they focused exclusively on fixing that bug and testing to make sure they didn't create any new ones.

But hopefully new Feature Updates will come more quickly in the future.
Dear Doug,

I have used the beta FW 5.01 since Friday, courtesy of my dealer, Studio Import, in Norway

I have been shooting in a remote location in Lakho national park in Norway, so fortunately my dealer
Studio Import in Norway managed to get a copy of the beta FW sent tome in the field, so I could avoid
the file format bug.

Beta FW 5.01, seems to be working without ant serious issues.

FW 5.01 seems stable, and could/should be released soon.

Best regards

Trond
 

Paul2660

Well-known member
Looks like P1 has put the fix up for the rest of the photographers. I have downloaded and installed it.

Note, update seems to be basically a bit switch, as it only takes about 2 minutes to complete unlike all previous IQ/XF updates that take up to 5 to 8 minutes and require the long period of LCD black out on the IQ4, (only see the blue light at bottom). But I can confirm on start up if set to 16bit EX, count is correct now.

List of issues, quite long.

Known Issues and Limitations (IQ4)
We are working on a firmware update to come with additional functionality and correction of the following known Issues and limitations:
• The Automated Frame Averaging will not automatically show a preview of the resulting image on the IQ4 once finished. Please review the image be using the Viewer, Browser or Tool Viewer.
• Note that when you decide to stop the Automated Frame Averaging sequence before time, it will take more than double the selected exposure time to finalize the process. The IQ4 will not currently give any feedback that it is finalize the process, so please wait.
• Under some conditions when using Automated Frame Averaging, individual Frames of 2.0s will require the XF to be manually exited from the exposure via the XF Shutter Release Button.
• When using Automated Frame Averaging in conjunction with the IIQ 16 Extended file format, the total number of frames changes as the sequence is started. However, feature works as intended.
• Automated Frame Averaging doesn’t work correctly when the IIQ 14 Sensor+ file format is used as the sequence never completes. Please use another file format.
• The Direct Image Transfer feature only transfers RAW files, not the JPEG versions. If SD Storage is set to Off, the files on the SD card will not be transferred. Likewise, if the SD Storage is set to Primary Storage, the files on the XQD card will not be transferred.
• The IQ4 will not work correctly with Capture One Styles created in Capture One version 10 or earlier. If you have an old style that you wish to use on the IQ4, please apply it to an image in Capture One and then save it as a new style before importing it to the IQ4.
• You can include all of Capture One Pro’s image adjustments as a Custom IQ Style. While Capture One Inside on the IQ4 can render most of them, it cannot display them all. This discrepancy will be taken care of automatically as the IQ4 will disregard those not supported, and the all included adjustments will be retained and rendered once the RAW files are opened in Capture One Pro.
• You can currently not assign a static IP address on the IQ4 for WiFi and Ethernet connections, so please use a network which can assign an IP address (DHCP).
• Custom White Balance setting applies to the next captured image(s) only.

Paul C
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
Dear Doug,

I have used the beta FW 5.01 since Friday, courtesy of my dealer, Studio Import, in Norway

I have been shooting in a remote location in Lakho national park in Norway, so fortunately my dealer
Studio Import in Norway managed to get a copy of the beta FW sent tome in the field, so I could avoid
the file format bug.
Indeed; dealers received a beta of this fix, but you can imagine most of us were a bit gun shy to widely distribute. While the bug in the previous firmware was unacceptable and serious, it was also a known-issue that had a known-workaround. "The devil you know"

I'm still admittedly gun shy; if users aren't otherwise in a big hurry I'd give it a few more days while DT, other dealers, and early adopters jump in and make sure there isn't yet another bug lurking in here.

Twice bitten, thrice shy. Phase One has a bit of work to do to earn back our trust. But at least they confirmed the bug almost immediately and got its fix out relatively quickly. That's a good first step.
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
Note, update seems to be basically a bit switch, as it only takes about 2 minutes to complete unlike all previous IQ/XF updates that take up to 5 to 8 minutes and require the long period of LCD black out on the IQ4, (only see the blue light at bottom).
Yes, it's a very focused/narrow update.

Notably the speed of the update will, of course, depend on what firmware you are coming from.
 

Gerd

Active member
.........
• When using Automated Frame Averaging in conjunction with the IIQ 16 Extended file format, the total number of frames changes as the sequence is started. However, feature works as intended.
........
The information is incorrect. None of them tested again (I can not believe it).

Correct is. The FA function works only in 14 bits L. If you select IIQ 16 Extend or only IIQ 16, then the estimated number of formats is displayed in the FA. When the FA sequence is started, it always takes the number that indicates and requires the format IIQ 14 bit L (logically the FA function only writes 14 bits L).

.........
• Automated Frame Averaging doesn’t work correctly when the IIQ 14 Sensor+ file format is used as the sequence never completes. Please use another file format.
........
IQ4150 not when selecting IIQ14 + in conjunction with the FA function. IQ4150 always writes a normal 14 bit L file. IQ4 Achromatic behaves as described above and will never finish. Both IQ4 and both XF of me have absolutely the same firmware. There is much more in the bad ...


still...
Picture display from about ~ 350% is still mushy.


Greeting Gerd
 

Gerd

Active member
Yes, I downloaded the firmware about 2 hours before Paul's contribution. I have no other sources except the official channels.

Test it out for a moment. You come - as far as the 14-bit L format is concerned with the FA function - immediately to the same result.

Greeting Gerd
 

Paul2660

Well-known member
Frame averaged 16 bit .jpegfile sizes .jpegnon frame average 16 bit,jpg.jpeg

Gerd is correct.

See attached screen shots:

Image 778 through 781 are were all captured in with back set to 16bit EX, all show low 14 bit resolution capture, and is also shown from screen print of file sizes.

With latest firmware, Frame Averaged images are only 114MB, this is the size of 14Bit low rez.

You can record at 16 EX with no problem, files are 179 to 190MB, once you switch to Frame averaging, back records the smaller file sizes, even with 16bit EX selected.

When you go back to normal mode in 16bit EX, files go back to full size.

But they did fix the issue of everything going to 14 bit, i.e. when you start up, with camera set to 16bit EX, count is correct and image appear to be recorded correctly


No comment, but will say amazed.

Paul C
 

Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
Gerd is correct.

See attached screen shots:

Image 778 through 781 are were all captured in with back set to 16bit EX, all show low 14 bit resolution capture, and is also shown from screen print of file sizes.

With latest firmware, Frame Averaged images are only 114MB, this is the size of 14Bit low rez.

You can record at 16 EX with no problem, files are 179 to 190MB, once you switch to Frame averaging, back records the smaller file sizes, even with 16bit EX selected.

When you go back to normal mode in 16bit EX, files go back to full size.

But they did fix the issue of everything going to 14 bit, i.e. when you start up, with camera set to 16bit EX, count is correct and image appear to be recorded correctly


No comment, but will say amazed.

Paul C

It has been our understanding that for now Frame Averaging will remain at 14 bit L quality, with 16 bit availability in the future. The read me notes may have jumped the gun a bit on this change, as our communication with Phase One indicated that frame Averaging was initially intended to be in 14bit L mode, and an update in the future would offer 16 bit options. As such, we (Capture Integration) see this then as not a bug, but as an intended limited release. And Phase One infomred of this even before the initial bug was detected, so this is not something new with this release or something that they did not "fix". It was intentional (for now).


Steve Hendrix/CI
 

Paul2660

Well-known member
Steve,

A bit surprised by your post and quote.

If Phase One planned for frame averaging to be only 14 bit, why was not this ever mentioned by any dealer or P1, instead it was sent out with not mention. The whole issue of 14 bit vs 16 bit came up in previous posts, and it was confirmed that the "beta" shots were indeed shot in 16 bit, even the frame averaged ones. These are the shots that P1 provided, which I no longer have, but it was reiterated that those were supposedly in 16 bit.

There was no mention in the read me provided by Phase One along with all the other "exceptions to this firmware" that the photographer should expect 14 low resolution image quality for frame averaging. I downloaded it along with firmware.

I guess this will addressed in a later firmware, along with all the other problems and issues etc. or maybe not as the direction from Phase One is very unclear.

For sure in the marketing literature Phase One should mention that Frame Averaging is a low quality 14 output (that is their own terminology) as Phase One has always stated that 16 bit image quality is one of their standards.

Paul C
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
It has been our understanding that for now Frame Averaging will remain at 14 bit L quality, with 16 bit availability in the future. The read me notes may have jumped the gun a bit on this change, as our communication with Phase One indicated that frame Averaging was initially intended to be in 14bit L mode, and an update in the future would offer 16 bit options. As such, we (Capture Integration) see this then as not a bug, but as an intended limited release. And Phase One infomred of this even before the initial bug was detected, so this is not something new with this release or something that they did not "fix". It was intentional (for now).
Errr... what?

That does not match my understanding. If there's been a purposeful change to only allow 14-bit capture for frame averaging it was not communicated to me, is not noted in the release notes, and represents a reduction in capability from the previous firmware.

I'm really left scratching my head here and don't expect to have any answers earlier than tomorrow.
 
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Gerd

Active member
It has been our understanding that for now Frame Averaging will remain at 14 bit L quality, with 16 bit availability in the future. The read me notes may have jumped the gun a bit on this change, as our communication with Phase One indicated that frame Averaging was initially intended to be in 14bit L mode, and an update in the future would offer 16 bit options. As such, we (Capture Integration) see this then as not a bug, but as an intended limited release. And Phase One infomred of this even before the initial bug was detected, so this is not something new with this release or something that they did not "fix". It was intentional (for now).


Steve Hendrix/CI
I ordered two cheseburgers years ago at the "hot witch" (german fastfoot chain). When the food came I opened the burgers and asked where the cheese is? The waiters answer which cheese? I answer I have ordered Cheseburger. The waitress answered - they are only named that way.

That's exactly how I feel right now. In many cases ...

Greeting Gerd
 

onasj

Active member
Selling Ferraris is already difficult—selling Ferraris with a built-in 55 mph speed limit is virtually impossible, and contradicts the company’s ethos, rationale for purchasing, and brand positioning, even though for 95% of applications you won’t need more than 55 mph.

Phase is all about uncompromising image quality. Frame stacking is largely motivated by maximizing image quality. It’s baffling that any form of frame averaging would be released that forces image quality downward, even if just by a little.
 

Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
Errr... what?

That does not match my understanding. If there's been a purposeful change to only allow 14-bit capture for frame averaging it was not communicated to me, is not noted in the release notes, and represents a reduction in capability from the previous firmware.

I'm really left scratching my head here and don't expect to have any answers earlier than tomorrow.

Well getting clear understanding from Phase One has not always been easy has it?

I will say it again - Our understanding from Phase One is that the 14Bit L mode for Frame Averaging is a temporary mode, until they have the 16 Bit Mode ready. Well, this part at least is factual. It does shoot in 14 Bit Mode, and Phase One has told us that it will eventually shoot in 16 Bit Mode. The sample files were produced in 16 Bit Mode, but apparently there is more work that Phase One wants to do with the 16Bit Mode for Frame Averaging. In the meantime they have released it in 14 Bit Mode. Importantly, 14 Bit L, not 14 Bit S.

And they have acknowledged this in our communications. They've said nothing about the 14 Bit L Mode being a bug. While it may not be a bug, it is certainly a limitation. With that said, from the tests we have shot, for certain situations even 14 Bit Mode L Frame Averaged captures provide superior results vs 16 Bit files shot in single frame mode. And perhaps that is whay Phase One decided to launch it for now with 14 Bit L Mode the only option for Frame Averaging. Of this last statement, I am only surmising.

You can call it a bug, you can call it a here you go for now. Irregardless, it works and does even now provide some advantages. Why Phase One could not wait until they had a 16 bit mode ready I have no idea.


Don't shoot the Messenger.


Steve Hendrix/CI
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
You can call it a bug, you can call it a here you go for now. Irregardless, it works and does even now provide some advantages. Why Phase One could not wait until they had a 16 bit mode ready I have no idea.
I call it a disappointment and a step in the wrong direction.

Don't shoot the Messenger.
I intend to harass my messenger quite a bit; just as soon as mine shows up. It sounds like Phase One told you/CI to expect this which only deepens my confusion as DT was not told despite being in continuous contact with P1, and again, it's not stated in the beta release notes, public/final release notes, or the dealer notification email. And in fact the only mention of 14 bit vs 16 bit is a note in the release notes that implies the exact opposite: "When using Automated Frame Averaging in conjunction with the IIQ 16 Extended file format [...]".

If Phase One intended Frame Averaging (temporarily or permanently) to be limited to 14-bit capture they did a pretty poor job of communicating that.
 
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Christopher

Active member
wow... don’t even know what to say. Embarrassing would come to mind.

Phase one has to wake up. I bought a 50k Produkt which feels more like a cheap Kickstarter project.... Phase really have to get their ******* act together. It’s not over 8 months...

What’s wrong? Is the whole IQ4 hardware bugged and we will need an IQ5 in a few months to get everything running?

I will state it again, while I’m happy with the actual quality, the rest experience has been terrible and my patient runs out. The GFX100 is a dream and does 99% of what my phase stuff does, for 1/6th or a price.
 

Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
I call it a disappointment and a step in the wrong direction.

I agree the decision to release a great new feature in a limited version is a questionable decision. However, while we certainly don't mind calling Phase One on the carpet, as we have done countless times (and it is nice to see you joining in this), I see the lack of clear communication as the real failing here.

A 14 bit L mode for frame averaging offers real benefits vs not having it, as evidenced by the architectural shoot that Brad Kaye performed toward the bottom of our Frame Averaging testing;

https://captureintegration.com/phase-one-iq4-long-awaited-frame-averaging-nearly-available/

So, IQ4 users today have a choice, do nothing, and wait for the 16 bit mode, or take advantage of what they can do with the 14 bit mode until then.

The sin is really about how long it seems to be taking Phase One to accomplish some of their feature/firmware objectives to full fruition, but more, that they are doing a terrible job of communicating clearly.


I intend to harass my messenger quite a bit; just as soon as mine shows up. It sounds like Phase One told you/CI to expect this which only deepens my confusion as DT was not told, and again, it's not in the beta release notes, public/final release notes, or the dealer notification email. And in fact the only mention of bit depth or file-format is a note in the release notes that implies the exact opposite: "When using Automated Frame Averaging in conjunction with the IIQ 16 Extended file format [...]".

If Phase One intended Frame Averaging (temporarily or permanently) to be limited to 14-bit capture they sure as heck dropped the ball on communicating that well.
As do we. Your statement that "Phase One told you/CI to expect this" is 100% incorrect, nor do I appreciate you even suggesting it because it implies that we knew the files were only 14 bit before our clients did and this is 100% not the case. When the bug was first reported by Dave Chew - that is when we went back to Phase One and had a long discussion about the 14 bit single frame bug, but also discussed the now realized only 14 bit L mode for frame averaging. This was when they told us of their original intent to provide 14 bit until they had the 16 bit mode ready. I would appreciate it if you would address your statement regarding when we knew of this.


Steve Hendrix/CI
 
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