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IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
As do we. Your statement that "Phase One told you/CI to expect this" is 100% incorrect, nor do I appreciate you even suggesting it because it implies that we knew the files were only 14 bit before our clients did and this is 100% not the case. When the bug was first reported by Dave Chew - that is when we went back to Phase One and had a long discussion about the 14 bit single frame bug, but also discussed the now realized only 14 bit L mode for frame averaging. This was when they told us of their original intent to provide 14 bit until they had the 16 bit mode ready. I would appreciate it if you would address your statement regarding when we knew of this.
(bolding mine)

Steve, I'm not impugning you. I didn't mean that you were aware of the bug reported by Dave Chew. I meant what you wrote in bold: that P1 told you they intended to provide 14-bit until they had 16-bit ready for frame averaging. DT did not get that memo, and that memo was not in the beta release notes, final release notes, or dealer email.
 

Christopher

Active member
@steve&doug

Honestly, what you both are doing is great, but there is no need to push it back and forth... you are great dealers and I hope you don’t need to fight each other that much.

In the end, it’s phase one fault and their horrible communication and update speed. If you loose a customer it’s certainly not because of a small thing you said, but because Phase is messing up time and time again.
 

Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
(bolding mine)

Steve, I'm not impugning you. I didn't mean that you were aware of the bug reported by Dave Chew. I meant what you wrote in bold: that P1 told you they intended to provide 14-bit until they had 16-bit ready for frame averaging. DT did not get that memo, and that memo was not in the beta release notes, final release notes, or dealer email.

It was not a memo, it was a discussion.

And the discussion happened after Dave Chew reported the bug, not before.


Steve Hendrix/CI
 

Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
@steve&doug

Honestly, what you both are doing is great, but there is no need to push it back and forth... you are great dealers and I hope you don’t need to fight each other that much.

In the end, it’s phase one fault and their horrible communication and update speed. If you loose a customer it’s certainly not because of a small thing you said, but because Phase is messing up time and time again.

Christopher, I appreciate you saying that, it means a lot.

Integrity to me personally, and to Capture Integration as a whole, is everything.

I just want to make sure there is clarification. Don't worry, if anything ever gets too heavy with me and Doug, we always work it out offline.


Steve Hendrix/CI
 
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Paul2660

Well-known member
The Shame is that P1 had it working in 16 bit mode with the first beta that went out "selected" photographers, and dealers. No mention, or words as to what changed? Back overheating? not enough processing? It would be nice to know since it did work in 16 bit mode.

Now, it's all OK to be 14 bit. I would much rather have the ability to use it in 16 bit and make the decision for myself. Nothing seemed to be wrong with the images that were sent from the first beta. So it implies to me that the IQ4 can't handle the processing and odds are never will so the process has been released as a compromise. Brings back memories of the P45+ and the backs that couldn't get to 1 hour exposures without being sent back to P1 for a upgrade due to fact that P1 switched component sources.

My issue is that P1 marketed this indirectly via the dealer channels and their web marketing as a 16 bit feature, as P1 has always claimed even since the CCD day's they had true 16 bit image quality. It's been a flagship feature that differentiated them from the rest of the pack.

Original firmware is released, dropping Frame averaged output to 14 bit, obviously intended that way by P1

Opps. P1 forgot to check the fact that a bit got swapped on the output quality settings, so now everything gets written at 14 bit Low.

OK P1 fixed that bit swap, and brings frame averaging out again, very quietly, no fan fare, no mention that it's not going to support 16 quality. THAT should have been covered in the readme and listed with all the other KNOWN problems which still existed, (see my earlier post where all of these were listed, around 10 of them). That is being up front and clear.

Paul C
 

algrove

Well-known member
The information is incorrect. None of them tested again (I can not believe it).

Correct is. The FA function works only in 14 bits L. If you select IIQ 16 Extend or only IIQ 16, then the estimated number of formats is displayed in the FA. When the FA sequence is started, it always takes the number that indicates and requires the format IIQ 14 bit L (logically the FA function only writes 14 bits L).



IQ4150 not when selecting IIQ14 + in conjunction with the FA function. IQ4150 always writes a normal 14 bit L file. IQ4 Achromatic behaves as described above and will never finish. Both IQ4 and both XF of me have absolutely the same firmware. There is much more in the bad ...


still...
Picture display from about ~ 350% is still mushy.


Greeting Gerd
So what is an achromatic IQ4 user to think NOW?
 

Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
The Shame is that P1 had it working in 16 bit mode with the first beta that went out "selected" photographers, and dealers. No mention, or words as to what changed? Back overheating? not enough processing? It would be nice to know since it did work in 16 bit mode.

Now, it's all OK to be 14 bit. I would much rather have the ability to use it in 16 bit and make the decision for myself. Nothing seemed to be wrong with the images that were sent from the first beta. So it implies to me that the IQ4 can't handle the processing and odds are never will so the process has been released as a compromise. Brings back memories of the P45+ and the backs that couldn't get to 1 hour exposures without being sent back to P1 for a upgrade due to fact that P1 switched component sources.

My issue is that P1 marketed this indirectly via the dealer channels and their web marketing as a 16 bit feature, as P1 has always claimed even since the CCD day's they had true 16 bit image quality. It's been a flagship feature that differentiated them from the rest of the pack.

Original firmware is released, dropping Frame averaged output to 14 bit, obviously intended that way by P1

Opps. P1 forgot to check the fact that a bit got swapped on the output quality settings, so now everything gets written at 14 bit Low.

OK P1 fixed that bit swap, and brings frame averaging out again, very quietly, no fan fare, no mention that it's not going to support 16 quality. THAT should have been covered in the readme and listed with all the other KNOWN problems which still existed, (see my earlier post where all of these were listed, around 10 of them). That is being up front and clear.

Paul C

I agree with this 100% Paul (the bold).

We never had 16 bit files in frame averaging with our beta. We didn't even know to double check the bit mode until your and Dave Chew's alert. And it was only then that we went back to check the Phase One (not our) sample files and saw that they were 16 bit.

So Paul Reiffer had a 16 bit version, but we did not with our beta (and I am assuming no other dealers did either).

Who knows what they encountered with the earlier 16 bit files, but something made them wait on bringing the feature out as 16 bit. From their standpoint, I don't see any benefit in explaining what the issues were with the 16 bit mode in frame averaging. It could have been something that was not produced in the sample files that you didn't see. The sample files certainly did not encompass every possible application for frame averaging. And as long as a 16 bit mode shows up not too far off in the future, and it is just a simple firmware update, no harm done.

But per your final paragraph that I bolded, where they are causing harm and distress with their user base (and yes, with dealers too!) is the lack of clear communication. This could have easily been stated so expectations were appropriate. As it stands, expectations are still not being addressed by Phase One. Sometimes they are their own worst enemy. Much of this could be alleviated by a statement with the new firmware that explains that the frame averaged shots are 14 bit, and that 16 bit will be available (by some rough time frame), and that it will simply be a firmware update at that time for the 16 bit mode. This was all within their grasp.


Steve Hendrix/CI
 

Paul2660

Well-known member
Steve, thanks, well said, I fully agree. Better worded than my more emotional post.

I am moving on.

Paul C
 

Smoothjazz

Active member
I was about to download the latest fix 5.01.0 released today, so that I am shooting at least all my single photos in 16 bit (kept forgetting to reset every time I turned on the camera). Just to be clear then; the new Firmware 5.01.0 fix will keep me in 16 bit normally for single shots; is this correct?
I understand that frame averaging will still be in 14 bit mode for the time being.
Thanks for the help.

John
 

dchew

Well-known member
I was about to download the latest fix 5.01.0 released today, so that I am shooting at least all my single photos in 16 bit (kept forgetting to reset every time I turned on the camera). Just to be clear then; the new Firmware 5.01.0 fix will keep me in 16 bit normally for single shots; is this correct?
I understand that frame averaging will still be in 14 bit mode for the time being.
Thanks for the help.

John
Yes, John. That is correct.

Dave
 

Bill Caulfeild-Browne

Well-known member
Not to excuse P1's poor communication, but I've been shooting with the update for several days now and continue to delighted with the results. Yeah, I'd prefer FA at 16 bits, but it's awfully impressive at 14 bits. Who'd have thought of noise free images (in the camera) at max ISO?
Let's enjoy the benefits more and worry about 2 bits less...
 

Boinger

Active member
Not to excuse P1's poor communication, but I've been shooting with the update for several days now and continue to delighted with the results. Yeah, I'd prefer FA at 16 bits, but it's awfully impressive at 14 bits. Who'd have thought of noise free images (in the camera) at max ISO?
Let's enjoy the benefits more and worry about 2 bits less...
Camera's have never actually been 16bits contrary to most claims. The hardware was just not present so people were really shooting in 14bits via the hardware adc's. AFAIK the 100MP cmos was the first chip that could actually do 16 bit ADC.

Anything claiming contrary is just false marketing.

Practicly speaking the main benefit of 16bit vs 14bit is latitude. But frame averaging does give a lot more latitude to files anyway. So the difference might be less so.

Only time will tell when you can experiment with both.
 

JaapD

Member
Through frame averaging you ‘could’ increase the dynamic range from the 14 to 16 bit. You’ll need at least 4 frames for doing this.


Regards,
Jaap.
 

tashley

Subscriber Member
Am I the only one who somewhat loses the will to live when reading this list? I’d quite like to concentrate on the creative process and the usual technical challenges without having to remember that the back only does colour images when set to IQ23LS mode provided that it’s not a Tuesday unless it’s the third Tuesday of the month (other than June) in which case you have to use it upside down.

Get real Phase.

Looks like P1 has put the fix up for the rest of the photographers. I have downloaded and installed it.

Note, update seems to be basically a bit switch, as it only takes about 2 minutes to complete unlike all previous IQ/XF updates that take up to 5 to 8 minutes and require the long period of LCD black out on the IQ4, (only see the blue light at bottom). But I can confirm on start up if set to 16bit EX, count is correct now.

List of issues, quite long.

Known Issues and Limitations (IQ4)
We are working on a firmware update to come with additional functionality and correction of the following known Issues and limitations:
• The Automated Frame Averaging will not automatically show a preview of the resulting image on the IQ4 once finished. Please review the image be using the Viewer, Browser or Tool Viewer.
• Note that when you decide to stop the Automated Frame Averaging sequence before time, it will take more than double the selected exposure time to finalize the process. The IQ4 will not currently give any feedback that it is finalize the process, so please wait.
• Under some conditions when using Automated Frame Averaging, individual Frames of 2.0s will require the XF to be manually exited from the exposure via the XF Shutter Release Button.
• When using Automated Frame Averaging in conjunction with the IIQ 16 Extended file format, the total number of frames changes as the sequence is started. However, feature works as intended.
• Automated Frame Averaging doesn’t work correctly when the IIQ 14 Sensor+ file format is used as the sequence never completes. Please use another file format.
• The Direct Image Transfer feature only transfers RAW files, not the JPEG versions. If SD Storage is set to Off, the files on the SD card will not be transferred. Likewise, if the SD Storage is set to Primary Storage, the files on the XQD card will not be transferred.
• The IQ4 will not work correctly with Capture One Styles created in Capture One version 10 or earlier. If you have an old style that you wish to use on the IQ4, please apply it to an image in Capture One and then save it as a new style before importing it to the IQ4.
• You can include all of Capture One Pro’s image adjustments as a Custom IQ Style. While Capture One Inside on the IQ4 can render most of them, it cannot display them all. This discrepancy will be taken care of automatically as the IQ4 will disregard those not supported, and the all included adjustments will be retained and rendered once the RAW files are opened in Capture One Pro.
• You can currently not assign a static IP address on the IQ4 for WiFi and Ethernet connections, so please use a network which can assign an IP address (DHCP).
• Custom White Balance setting applies to the next captured image(s) only.

Paul C
 

Christopher

Active member
That is just a small list of stuff missing or not working....

Not even talking about stuff like adhoc WiFi......


Am I the only one who somewhat loses the will to live when reading this list? I’d quite like to concentrate on the creative process and the usual technical challenges without having to remember that the back only does colour images when set to IQ23LS mode provided that it’s not a Tuesday unless it’s the third Tuesday of the month (other than June) in which case you have to use it upside down.

Get real Phase.
 

Craig Stocks

Well-known member
I find I have very conflicted feelings. On the one hand I'm angry at P1 and feel misled for having purchased an IQ4150 and finding promised and expected features aren't available. And Phase One's continued silence and seeming incompetence just adds to the feeling.

In reality I shouldn't be surprised. From my perspective P1 has a long history of flawed genius. I bought into the P1 family in 2011 with a p65+ and DF body. The DF was pretty much a joke with its AA battery power and frequent lock-ups. I upgraded to an IQ260 which was great - but only after my first one was replaced. Then I upgraded to the XF which is a fantastic platform, once the battery door was fixed and the viewfinder was upgraded so it wouldn't fall off. Next came the IQ3100, the pinnacle of the original IQ platform and released as a mature product. It too worked great once my original back was replaced.

So why should I be surprised that the IQ4150 with an entirely new operating system has some launch problems? That seems to be Phase One's standard practice. I would dearly love to see them develop the ability to launch a product that works as advertised, but mostly I hope they stay in business long enough to get their current products fixed.

Now, on the other hand, I'm thrilled with the image quality of the IQ4150. Files come out of that back that feel quite a bit better than anything I've experienced before. Color, tone, noise and image flexibility are outstanding.

So, in the midst of the current kerfuffle I decided to do a quick test to see just how bad 14 bit frame averaged images really are. To my surprise the 14 bit frame averaged sample is quite a bit better than a single 16 bit EX frame, even when pushed quite a bit in post.

I set up a simple scene lit with mixed daylight and tungsten. I shot four frames, 16 bit EX, 16 bit, 14 bit L and a 200 frame average. I intentionally underexposed it so I could push it in C1. After setting the WB I ended up pushing the exposure slider all the way to the right and also increased contrast and saturation. I copied all adjustments to all frames.

I've attached a couple 100% samples from the scene. To be honest I didn't see big differences between any of the single frames, even with exposure pushed pretty hard, but the frame average stood well above any of them.

My conclusion: I'm going to go use my P1 system, enjoy the results and wait (if somewhat impatiently) for a real firmware update.
 

Attachments

Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
Am I the only one who somewhat loses the will to live when reading this list? I’d quite like to concentrate on the creative process and the usual technical challenges without having to remember that the back only does colour images when set to IQ23LS mode provided that it’s not a Tuesday unless it’s the third Tuesday of the month (other than June) in which case you have to use it upside down.

Get real Phase.

Tim, please don't lose the will to live. And no one else, either!

I'm already concerned about the remaining hair quantity of everyone here, please don't add one's actual existence to the equation!

On that note, and to the above list, we've made a post that contains an edit to their list from our findings:

https://captureintegration.com/iq4-creative-control-package-service-release-1/


The shortcut, if you don't wish to visit our site is:


From Phase One's Read Me:
* Under some conditions when using Automated Frame Averaging, individual Frames of 2.0s will require the XF to be manually exited from the exposure via the XF Shutter Release Button.

* Our own Brad Kaye's amendment to the above is below:
(This is what the official notes say. but in practice I’ve seen the XF Shutter Release Button remain dead, as are the ‘Stop & Save’ & ‘Abort’ buttons on the top of the camera. The only fix I’ve found if this presents is from the home screen of the IQ4, tap the large Capture button on the IQ4 to initiate a single frame capture which will fire a frame and reset the XF top display – BK)


Steve Hendrix/CI
 
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