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Thread: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

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    IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    Thanks to another forum member I just realized this issue, only after 2 full days of shooting however.

    The IQ4 with the latest firmware is not recording at the 16 EX extended quality or normal 16 bit when selected, instead it's writing at 14 LOW quality, amazing. You can select the 16 Bit EX and the camera shows it's selected, but LOOK AT YOUR COUNTER, it will show the incorrect number of frames remaining instead it's based on the 14 setting.

    To get my IQ4 to finally record 16 bit agin, I had to do the following:

    1. Formally select the 14 setting
    2. Reformat the Card in the IQ on the XF (not sure what would happen if back on tech camera)
    3. After first format camera still showed the incorrect frame count after selected 16 bit EX(note it's almost 2x if you have 14 bit selected)
    4. I selected 14 bit again and reformatted the camera a 2nd time.

    Now the camera will record correctly, but only after 2 formats.

    NOTE I tested this on a brand new card out of the box XQD. But also had the exact same issue with a 64 bit card.

    I normally do not format my cards each time, instead I just copy the images off and reuse the card. But it's apparent to me it doesn't matter as a brand new card, formatted for the first time in camera did the exact same thing.

    Just want to point this out as you may end up with hundreds of images all in 14 bit, like I did.

    Sorry, tone of post is harsh just a bit pissed off at this time. There is NO excuse for this.

    Edit:

    Problem is worse than I thought. It happens everytime you turn off the camera. So if you have formatted a card, and it's showing the correct frame count for 16 Bit EX (on a 64GB card around 266 frames), when you power on again you will have 16 Bit EX selected and the counter will show 556 So the IQ4 is dropping to the lowest quality setting of S14. You have to go back and re-select 16 Bit EX again and then as long as back is powered on it will stay there. Turn it off/on you must reset. Trust me even though the quality setting shows EX16 bit your remaining frame count is the give away, 556. Take a shot and it's in 14 Bit lowest possible quality.

    Also there is not real way to tell if you have recorded in 16 Bit EX or 16 bit until you look at the image in C1 as on the back, the files have the same description. No EX shows.

    Paul C
    Last edited by Paul2660; 13th July 2019 at 06:47.
    Paul Caldwell
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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    Paul,
    Did you keep track of turning the back on and off during your card formatting test? I've noticed the problem can be fixed by cycling between 14 and 16 bit, but if you turn the back off and back on the problem comes back. I will try your formatting process to see if it sticks.

    The other thing I did was tether to C1 and see what it says about the back settings. When tethered, C1 reports the back is set to:
    File Format: IIQ16 Extended
    Compression: IIQ L 16bit

    But if you take a photo, that image comes in as IIQ S Ex. If I cycle back and forth on the back to 14 bit then back to 16 bit and take another photo, it comes in as IIQ L 16bit Ex like it should.

    BTW, I created a case this morning because my dealer hadn't heard of this before. More to come.

    Dave
    aka "the other forum member!"
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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    Paul,
    I just checked. Mine does not work as you described. Doesn't matter whether I reformat the card or not. Turning off the back is what does it (note I'm on a technical camera - no XF). Whenever I turn the back on, it says it is set for "L16IIQEX", but as you point out the count is ~2x what it should be, and if you take a photo it records as 14bit. In C1 the format says "IIQ S Ex" and the file size is 95.8mb. Without turning the back off, if I cycle between "S14IIQ" and "L16IIQEX" the image capacity gets cut in half and it will record a 16 bit Ex file like it should ("IIQ L 16bit Ex" in C1) that is 172.7mb. It will continue to do that correctly until I turn the back off and back on, at which point its brain gets scrambled again and shows ~2x card image capacity and records the smaller files.

    Dave
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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    Just modified my original post, you are correct it's turning off the back that does it.

    The Quality setting stays at 16 Bit EX, the actual image taken is 14 bit low quality.

    With a IQ4 I am always turning the back on and off, tech or XF, this is bite you in the butt problem. As stated before 2 days worth of shooting all in 14 bit quality. I saw the 16 bit setting on the camera screen, did not think about the math involved around total number of images. TO BE HONEST I SHOULDN'T HAVE TO EITHER.

    First screen shot shows power on, with 16 BitEX selected, but image count at 556. next shows switching back to 14 low quality, last shows moving back to 16 bit EX and count is correct. Note count is the same between 16 EX and 16 Bit

    Paul C
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by Paul2660; 13th July 2019 at 07:10.

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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    The other "funny" thing is C1 shows those files as "IIQ S Ex." I don't think an Extended S format even exists. In fact, if I pick "S14IIQ" as the format on purpose, C1 shows the format as "IIQ S"

    It is recording a format that doesn't exist! Not so funny...

    Dave
    Last edited by dchew; 13th July 2019 at 07:20.
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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    No comment...
    Christopher Hauser
    http://www.chauser.eu

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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    Yes, I saw that also on C1, checked file sizes, the 14 bit ones are all 107MB, and the 16Bit ones in the 140 to 198MB range, so all of the images I took over the last week unfortunately are all 14 bit. Never thought to do the math on frame count as I was switching between 32GB, 64GB and 120GB cards. But camera was always on 16 Bit ex that's what I always shoot in when at ISO50 to 100.

    Paul C

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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    It should take Phase One a week to hot fix, it probably will take them 3 months, hopefully we will get adhoc WIFI with the next update...
    Christopher Hauser
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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    So should we go back to the old FW, if possible? Sure no frame averaging, but at least 16bit file sizes.

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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    Quote Originally Posted by algrove View Post
    So should we go back to the old FW, if possible? Sure no frame averaging, but at least 16bit file sizes.

    Stay current just switch back every time you turn on the camera. For me in a average shoot thatís between 30 and 45 times.

    Just amazes me with all the folks at P1 and dealerships no one caught this in all the beta testing so not sure if came out with final release or not. I have traced it back to the last firmware update. All images before it are 16bit as thatís where I leave the quality. After update itís all 14 bit low quality.

    Paul C

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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    I added a little white sticker to remind myself.

    How glorious a greeting the sun gives the mountains! - John Muir

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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    Reading this has not been good, been on a bit of a ride to get my back up to the latest FW, nearly bricked my back only for the pokey blighter to come back to life after trying to factory default firmware. My back would not take the latest and greatest firmware and would just reboot if I tried to install it..
    Had to get an intrum version between XFSystem1.03.26.fwp and XFSystem5.00.20.fwp from phase one (2.00.20) to get mine to take 5.00.20.
    I get the feeling the instal doesn't always work. Thankfully Mine is saving full 16bit ex files

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    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post
    Stay current just switch back every time you turn on the camera. For me in a average shoot thatís between 30 and 45 times.

    Just amazes me with all the folks at P1 and dealerships no one caught this in all the beta testing so not sure if came out with final release or not. I have traced it back to the last firmware update. All images before it are 16bit as thatís where I leave the quality. After update itís all 14 bit low quality.

    Paul C

    Paul, you're right. Everyone missed this. Phase One, dealers, end users (until now).

    Thank you for bringing it to attention, it is something that others need to know.

    What is important to keep in mind, and what I feel that dealers, including us, should be doing a better job of, is emphasizing to any that are using this firmware, that it is a public beta. It is not a final firmware. That is the whole point of the "Beta Labs" program, that you, the end user, can participate in using beta firmware and help shape the use cases, and ultimately the final version of the features. While this sounds like a great thing on the one hand, it is beta, not final firmware. Bugs can be present.

    This is the case whether you're beta testing Capture One software as well. There is an important difference though, that Paul's post brings to light. Beta testing software means that if you shoot to a card and you ingest files and something goes really wrong, you could still have your raw files backed up elsewhere before jumping them into the beta software.

    With beta firmware for hardware, what you actually captured in general won't be reversible. So extra care needs to be taken that before jumping into shooting for real. That your practice files have been scoured and looked over in every detail to make sure that when it is for real -- so far as you can tell - everything seems hunky dory.

    And this is what we failed to account for. It's different than beta software. And all dealers should have considered this and emphasized the caution. So on our part, I would like to apologize for not making that clearer to end users adopting the beta firmware. I think in this case, all were so excited and focused on exploring what the firmware could do, the fact it is beta and needs to be tested completely just for any odd behavior was not pushed forward. Due diligence still needs to occur, in fact, more than usual.

    Going forward - I can see that this could question the idea of the "Beta Labs" program. I hope that's not the case, though I understand the right of those to feel that way and exercise caution. I consider the idea of end users shaping a tool for an industry leading camera to be pretty exciting and innovative. So going forward, we understand if anyone feels like sitting out, but we're still going to present these releases to our end users that may choose to participate if they wish to do so.


    Steve Hendrix/CI
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    Authorized Reseller Digital Cam: ē Phase One | Fuji | Leica | Sinar ē
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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    The problem aren't the bugs, it's how long it takes to roll out fixed and new versions. You'r right it's not as easy as a C1 beta, which can coexist fine with another version, however, it should't take as long as it currently takes to get stuff along. We have been waiting for 8 months now and things still are super slow.
    Christopher Hauser
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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    Hi Steve,

    You are my dealer, I appreciate your companies support over this years, this is all on Phase One, there is no way this should have been missed and allow this blatant an error to go out. They have not release a firmware update yet for this back, official or public beta that is free of bugs and screws up something else that was working before.

    I guess I disagree. I never saw anything about this firmware being a Public Beta, I know that it was in dealer beta for amount a month. The actual release notes do not mention it being a public beta, at least I can't find anything. Per the release notes, I guess there should have been a big line of text Public Beta, use at your own risk.

    https://downloads.phaseone.com/87078...%20Package.pdf

    I tend to read these and did read these.

    Per the Phase One site, this update is listed pretty much just like all the previous ones.
    I guess I missed any posted flags on this also being a public beta. The only public betas I have ever seen or used are the new versions of C1 as I was on that list, appear to be off it now.

    Whatever, this issue would have kept on biting me over and over, 14 bit low quality, and in a format that C1 gives a totally different name to, I someone else on this site had pointed it out to me. I have used the back extensively since the 3rd, when I did the update, over 3 shoots and all of the files are the same 14 bit low res, low quality.

    Damage is done for me close to 500-600 images all in the lowest possible format possible.

    Please be aware that currently, even after the fix is done to allow the back to actually record correctly, on playback, Phase doesn't show a difference in the 16 bit and 16 bit EX capture, only C1 shows this. So unless tethered, you just have to hope the back is doing it correctly.

    Files sizes are also same so there is really no way to know.

    Paul C

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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    This was not marked as beta*, and should not have contained this kind of bug. The previous firmware release (also not a beta) contained a pretty annoying bug that addressed review of vertical images.

    The honeymoon period (a grace period for quirks and bugs that are often present for any new platform in the first few months) for the IQ4 is over. This sort of thing is unacceptable. Phase One is doing a ton right in the last few years, but that is really sullied by slip ups like this.

    Thank you for finding and sharing this bug.

    Can I ask you to confirm that the file size of the captured-during-the-but raw files indicate that the bug is the actual bit depth rather than the bug being the mislabeling the metadata field?

    *it was labeled beta during the dealer testing period, but not for the public launch. I’m ashamed to say we missed that during our testing

    Note: I don’t have an IQ4 with me, so I’m just assuming the report is accurate as I know both Paul and Dave are experienced P1 users
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    Just did 4 captures. Two with 16bit EX and two with 16bit. One of each before power down after setting the raw format and one after on/off cycle.

    I can confirm that both second captures ARE IIQ S! The first one is IIQ16Ex and IIQ16 as aspected. The file size is also different. (120MB vs 70MB)


    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    This was not marked as beta*, and should not have contained this kind of bug. The previous firmware release (also not a beta) contained a pretty annoying bug that addressed review of vertical images.

    The honeymoon period (a grace period for quirks and bugs that are often present for any new platform in the first few months) for the IQ4 is over. This sort of thing is unacceptable.

    I will express my displeasure directly to P1 on Monday.

    Thank you for finding and sharing this bug.

    Can I ask you to confirm that the file size of the captured-during-the-but raw files indicate that the bug is the actual bit depth rather than the bug being the mislabeling the metadata field?

    *it was labeled beta during the dealer testing period, but not for the public launch. I’m ashamed to say we missed that during our testing

    Note: I don’t have an IQ4 with me, so I’m just assuming the report is accurate as I know both Paul and Dave are experienced P1 users
    Christopher Hauser
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    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post
    Hi Steve,

    You are my dealer, I appreciate your companies support over this years, this is all on Phase One, there is no way this should have been missed and allow this blatant an error to go out. They have not release a firmware update yet for this back, official or public beta that is free of bugs and screws up something else that was working before.

    I guess I disagree. I never saw anything about this firmware being a Public Beta, I know that it was in dealer beta for amount a month. The actual release notes do not mention it being a public beta, at least I can't find anything. Per the release notes, I guess there should have been a big line of text Public Beta, use at your own risk.

    https://downloads.phaseone.com/87078...%20Package.pdf

    I tend to read these and did read these.

    Per the Phase One site, this update is listed pretty much just like all the previous ones.
    I guess I missed any posted flags on this also being a public beta. The only public betas I have ever seen or used are the new versions of C1 as I was on that list, appear to be off it now.

    Whatever, this issue would have kept on biting me over and over, 14 bit low quality, and in a format that C1 gives a totally different name to, I someone else on this site had pointed it out to me. I have used the back extensively since the 3rd, when I did the update, over 3 shoots and all of the files are the same 14 bit low res, low quality.

    Damage is done for me close to 500-600 images all in the lowest possible format possible.

    Please be aware that currently, even after the fix is done to allow the back to actually record correctly, on playback, Phase doesn't show a difference in the 16 bit and 16 bit EX capture, only C1 shows this. So unless tethered, you just have to hope the back is doing it correctly.

    Files sizes are also same so there is really no way to know.

    Paul C

    Paul, now that I am looking back, I have to agree with you - if it is beta firmware, it has never been stated so anywhere. There was a beta firmware period to dealers, but when the public version came out, Phase One just released it. So hard to say whether this was a continuing part of the Beta Labs program (as I assumed) or not. At any rate, beta or not, I agree this should not have come out without some more testing on Phase One's part.


    Steve Hendrix/CI
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    Authorized Reseller Digital Cam: ē Phase One | Fuji | Leica | Sinar ē
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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    Sure, raw files size is 109MB, for all the images that I took, they show up as IIQS in C1, and on the camera playback screen. even as the main camera screen as shown in my screen captures shows 16 BitEX.

    The true 16 bitEX files I have are all 186 to 200MB, close to 2x the file size.

    Going through all of these settings, I remembered that the camera had the sensor plus mode. It shows only 14 bit, I only looked at it once way back, but I though it was available in 16 bit (sensor plus), but I may easily have that wrong.

    Until you go back and forth in the image quality settings, all images are taken in the IIQS size.

    Paul C

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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    I've just checked my XF/IQ4-150 and get exactly the same problem. Fortunately for me the only shooting I have done since the "upgrade" was to play with Frame Averaging and so I have no sub-par files that matter.

    I'll bring this to my dealer's attention too so that Denmark gets a landslide of complaints!

    PS Anybody else using the Haehnel remote release? It will not work with frame averaging - just gives a single exposure. But the Vibration Delay does work so it's not a major issue for me.
    Bill CB

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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post
    Sure, raw files size is 109MB, for all the images that I took, they show up as IIQS in C1, and on the camera playback screen. even as the main camera screen as shown in my screen captures shows 16 BitEX.

    The true 16 bitEX files I have are all 186 to 200MB, close to 2x the file size.

    Going through all of these settings, I remembered that the camera had the sensor plus mode. It shows only 14 bit, I only looked at it once way back, but I though it was available in 16 bit (sensor plus), but I may easily have that wrong.

    Until you go back and forth in the image quality settings, all images are taken in the IIQS size.

    Paul C

    Paul, I don't think the Sensor Plus mode has ever shot anything but 14bit files.


    Steve Hendrix/CI
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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix View Post
    Paul, I don't think the Sensor Plus mode has ever shot anything but 14bit files.


    Steve Hendrix/CI
    Yes it always has been 14bit. Glas the back is nor reverting back to Sensor +
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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    Can I ask you to confirm that the file size of the captured-during-the-but raw files indicate that the bug is the actual bit depth rather than the bug being the mislabeling the metadata field?
    Both of the images shown below are the same except for the issue discussed. In Capture One, __21 one is "IIQ S Ex" format, __22 is "IIQ L 16bit Ex" format.

    Dave

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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    I can confirm that this serious bug occurs on my IQ4 with the latest firmware as well. Interestingly, it can only be fixed by selecting one of the 14-bit quality settings and then selecting back the 16-bit quality of choice. If you select 16L or 16ex it will remain bugged until you pick a 14-bit setting.

    It’s an especially bad bug because:
    1) The back SAYS it’s in a 16-bit mode, but it’s actually in 14-bit S mode
    2) The bugged state occurs every time you power up the back
    3) There’s no indication that your photos are being captured in the wrong quality setting until you review them (this can be done in camera by turning on the “show details” button in review mode. So there is no doubt that the bug is occurring, even without transferring the files to a computer).

    The combination of (1-3) means photographers using this firmware are likely capturing photos in the lowest quality 14-bit mode (without pixel binning) when they don’t intend to. Which is quite a problem!

    Regarding the point about the firmware being a beta... ALL of the IQ4 firmwares have seemed like a beta, unfortunately. Between the split image review bug, non-capture bug, vertical orientation scroll bug, and now this one (arguably the most serious bug yet given its prevalence and lack of errors indicating something is wrong)... by my count ALL of the IQ4 firmware releases to date have had a serious bug.

    Phase should announce to its customer base the steps it is taking to minimize such serious bugs in future firmware releases.

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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    Same problem here, never realized it so far, so thanks to Paul!
    However, as I have been doing a lot of frame averaging lately, while checking the file formats in C1, I now found that my IQ4 150 stores all files as 16L again as soon as I had taken a frame averaging image!
    But by turning the back off, the 16L setting is lost again....
    So the work around seems to be to change the file format to 14bit and right away back to 16bit every time you turn on the back!
    I have checked this, works for me....
    But sure hope Phase One reacts soon with a fix - what else are we missing???
    Jost von Allmen
    Switzerland

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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    My ordered back is not here yet but I'm on the fence to say no way......

    This is all really uncalled for..... at the best price you can possibly get this should still never happen. Something is going on at Phase that does not sit right..... the only way to describe this is sloppy QC and that means that Phase is cutting corners.

    I'm more than a little concerned.....

    Victor

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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    Sadly itís becoming a bit embarrassing to own an IQ4150. Iím really concerned about Phase Oneís ongoing incompetence.

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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    I noticed the image count today but didnít think about it until now. Iíd also noticed less quality on image review the past few days, but didnít double check. Luckily itís just been snapshots and test shots since I updated.

    Ps first post on here

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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    Welcome Ferg. Sorry your first post had to be about a problem!

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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    Correction, it does effect my back... glad I know about it. well spotted

    Just found another bug... in my laziness I switched on auto iso to just snap a test shot and... it don't work... lol

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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    Is all I know is that I did not buy an IQ4150 to shoot in 14bit.

    So to make sure the workaround is:

    1. Power on
    2. Set to 14 bit
    3. Then even without taking an mage set to 16bit extended.
    4. Now ready to capture in 16 bit.

    Is this correct?

    Can others confirm the "Auto ISO" problem. Thanks.

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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    Yes, that is correct - at least, it works for me!

    Can't comment on Auto ISO, never use it.
    Bill CB

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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    I agree that it’s embarrassing for Phase One but what we’re seeing here is the classic software issues that occur when you fundamentally replace the entire OS/application stack and start again. In my business this tends to be the v2 rewrite ahead of v3 return to stability.

    Ultimately though the IQ4150 was released too soon and obviously needed (still needs) more testing before hitting the streets.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    I agree that itís embarrassing for Phase One but what weíre seeing here is the classic software issues that occur when you fundamentally replace the entire OS/application stack and start again. In my business this tends to be the v2 rewrite ahead of v3 return to stability.

    Ultimately though the IQ4150 was released too soon and obviously needed (still needs) more testing before hitting the streets.
    I wouldn't mind as much if once the bug is found, and such a critical one at that. It should be hotfixed within a few days at most.

    No need to wait till the next firmware iteration which is likely what will happen here.

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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    Quote Originally Posted by Boinger View Post
    I wouldn't mind as much if once the bug is found, and such a critical one at that. It should be hotfixed within a few days at most.

    No need to wait till the next firmware iteration which is likely what will happen here.

    Agreed, if itís such a simple fix. Although if they are vigilant it should invoke a full regression test to make sure that the fix didnít break something else. We follow a full Devops process where developers are responsible for ultimate quality plus end to end standard test suites vs ad hoc user tests - thatís whatís showing up in Phase Oneís release approach. You really need a standard test suite of known use cases that have to pass every time.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    As a non-PhaseOne owner, I'm happy to see a functioning and supportive community. If this had happened with other subcultures, we'd see:

    Fuji: "This is a small price too pay for such rapid innovation."
    Hasselblad: "DJI doesn't care about them! They're DOOMED!"
    Leica: *iz ded*
    Sigma: "14bits is better, anyway."
    The measurement crowd: "Well, the definition of a bit depends on quantum read noise crosstalk well depth. The IQ4150 actually records 15.7*Sqrt[-1] bits"
    The film crowd: "HCB didn't need bits!"
    Apple: "The 14bits are not upgradeable. I get 18bits for half the money from Dell!"


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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    I was able to do a simple regression process on my back, and can pinpoint that it's Frame averaging that created the problem. I updated on 07/03/19, and used the back without frame averaging on a shoot, came back the next morning to test Frame Averaging.

    The first series of images during my testing are all 16 Bit EX or non EX, but all are 16 bit. I am sure during those tests I powered the back on and off several times but all the files are the correct size and are 16 bit.

    Later that day I came back to the same location and tried some different angles but had turned off the back. From that point on for the next 500 or 600 frames everything was shot in 14 bit low quality. I always check the indicator showing 16 bit EX or non EX, but never noticed the count for frames remaining had gone up by close to 2x. Once you use frame averaging, this bug is set and stays in place even after the back is powered off, so it's a different type of bug one that appears to have to be enabled by a feature, but once enabled stays in place.

    This simple fact, still amazes me that none of the P1 developers, or "Professional" shooters caught this as it had to happen to them also, unless this issue was caused by some last minute tweak to the firmware, on P1 knows that.

    I still say, this firmware was NOT released as public beta, after rechecking Phase One's main page and doc's, there is no mention of it being a beta with the all the normal literature about use and risk of a beta. Also I know of no other firmware for a IQ that was released as a Public Beta, if anyone knows of one, please correct me. I am fully aware of IQ firmware in beta being given to an end user (I have had it happen) with an understanding that it is a beta and thus be aware of issues. If Phase goes back and changes their release notes on the this firmware to say it's a Public Beta, then shame on them. It's not in the release notes I pulled down on 07/03/19 or yesterday.

    Many may find this is not a big deal, that's their prerogative. Net to me is I would have gone on making this same mistake and continuing to shoot the lowest quality from the back as I did not realize the issue was there until someone else pointed out to me. All I know is what I can see in the files. Like another poster, I had also started to wonder about increases in noise in the reviews of the images, but due to the heat in my location I just wrote it off to the back getting warm. There is almost 100MB of file size difference between the 14bit and 16 Bit Ex, the average 14 LOW res image from the IQ4 being close to equal to a High res 14 bit file from a Nikon Z 7.

    For me this is as bad as the bug that was allowed to go out day one on non auto rotation of portrait images. And that persisted for almost 6 months. Auto rotation of a portrait image is basic camera operations 101, if you can't auto rotate you should not be releasing a camera yet.

    Paul C

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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    I agree that itís embarrassing for Phase One but what weíre seeing here is the classic software issues that occur when you fundamentally replace the entire OS/application stack and start again.
    I 100% agree with this. In this case they also changed the hardware and UI at the same time as the OS/application stack. It was a gutsy move, and one that, in the long run, almost always works in the favor of both customer and company. You need only look at camera platforms that don't get fundamental re-writes and see how they end up languishing quietly into the good night; they don't die, they just... fade away. The XF was a fundamental rewrite of the DF and (after a few rocky months right at the start) has been incredible for P1 and its customers. The IQ was a fundamental rewrite of the P+ and has been incredible for P1 and its customers. The IQ4 was another fundamental rewrite, and in fact was a bigger rewrite than the other two examples.

    The problem is that explanation is only good for a few months.

    It's now been a bit over two quarters since the system started shipping. Phase One needs to address this; pronto.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183
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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post
    I still say, this firmware was NOT released as public beta, after rechecking Phase One's main page and doc's, there is no mention of it being a beta with the all the normal literature about use and risk of a beta. Also I know of no other firmware for a IQ that was released as a Public Beta, if anyone knows of one, please correct me.
    You are 100% correct. The firmware was not beta, and this kind of bug simply should not be in a non-beta release of firmware.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    Interesting observations, Paul. I have not had a chance yet to take any frame-averaged images but my IQ4 nevertheless has the bug. I may have touched the "sigma" button that opens the frame averaging menu. But I definitely have not captured any frame-averaged images with it, yet my back still has the bug. If you are correct that a freshly updated IQ4 won't have the bug, then perhaps simply opening the frame averaging menu causes the problem?

    Kudos to Steve/CI for posting about the bug on the CI website; other dealers and Phase One should do the same given that photographers who are using the latest firmware will likely be capturing in a lower quality than intended.

    I agree with most other posters in this thread that this bug *is* a big deal, not only for the (small but very expensive!) quality difference between 14 and 16 bit, but also for what it says about Phase One's continued firmware issues and counterproductive lack of communication about fixing serious bugs.


    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post
    I was able to do a simple regression process on my back, and can pinpoint that it's Frame averaging that created the problem. I updated on 07/03/19, and used the back without frame averaging on a shoot, came back the next morning to test Frame Averaging.

    The first series of images during my testing are all 16 Bit EX or non EX, but all are 16 bit. I am sure during those tests I powered the back on and off several times but all the files are the correct size and are 16 bit.

    Later that day I came back to the same location and tried some different angles but had turned off the back. From that point on for the next 500 or 600 frames everything was shot in 14 bit low quality. I always check the indicator showing 16 bit EX or non EX, but never noticed the count for frames remaining had gone up by close to 2x. Once you use frame averaging, this bug is set and stays in place even after the back is powered off, so it's a different type of bug one that appears to have to be enabled by a feature, but once enabled stays in place.

    This simple fact, still amazes me that none of the P1 developers, or "Professional" shooters caught this as it had to happen to them also, unless this issue was caused by some last minute tweak to the firmware, on P1 knows that.

    I still say, this firmware was NOT released as public beta, after rechecking Phase One's main page and doc's, there is no mention of it being a beta with the all the normal literature about use and risk of a beta. Also I know of no other firmware for a IQ that was released as a Public Beta, if anyone knows of one, please correct me. I am fully aware of IQ firmware in beta being given to an end user (I have had it happen) with an understanding that it is a beta and thus be aware of issues. If Phase goes back and changes their release notes on the this firmware to say it's a Public Beta, then shame on them. It's not in the release notes I pulled down on 07/03/19 or yesterday.

    Many may find this is not a big deal, that's their prerogative. Net to me is I would have gone on making this same mistake and continuing to shoot the lowest quality from the back as I did not realize the issue was there until someone else pointed out to me. All I know is what I can see in the files. Like another poster, I had also started to wonder about increases in noise in the reviews of the images, but due to the heat in my location I just wrote it off to the back getting warm. There is almost 100MB of file size difference between the 14bit and 16 Bit Ex, the average 14 LOW res image from the IQ4 being close to equal to a High res 14 bit file from a Nikon Z 7.

    For me this is as bad as the bug that was allowed to go out day one on non auto rotation of portrait images. And that persisted for almost 6 months. Auto rotation of a portrait image is basic camera operations 101, if you can't auto rotate you should not be releasing a camera yet.

    Paul C

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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    I just tested the IQ4 with latest firmware with my XF (also latest firmware) and the auto ISO appears to work fine. The 16 bit vs 14 bit capture bug is still there with both the XF and with no body (tech cam use), however.

    Speaking of auto ISO, the nature of the IQ4 sensor's dynamic range means that Phase One should really be using 1/3 stop auto ISO increments, rather in full stop increments. Indeed, the auto ISO values used by the XF (see http://photonstophotos.net/Charts/PD...%20IQ4%20150MP) are actually the worst "bang for the buck" ISO choicesó the best being 1/3 stop BELOW each full stop (so ISO 160, 320, 640, 1280, 2500, 5000, 10000, and 20000).

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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post
    ....
    I still say, this firmware was NOT released as public beta, after rechecking Phase One's main page and doc's, there is no mention of it being a beta with the all the normal literature about use and risk of a beta. Also I know of no other firmware for a IQ that was released as a Public Beta, if anyone knows of one, please correct me. I am fully aware of IQ firmware in beta being given to an end user (I have had it happen) with an understanding that it is a beta and thus be aware of issues. If Phase goes back and changes their release notes on the this firmware to say it's a Public Beta, then shame on them. It's not in the release notes I pulled down on 07/03/19 or yesterday.....
    Paul, thanks for being on "the cutting edge" and pinpointing these issues with the IQ4. I picked up my IQ4 "late in the game" in the hopes that Phase would be closer to caught up with the feature updates/firmware updates. While true I did miss many of the frustrations that the earlier adopters experienced, there are still many that remain to be addressed. I was surprised by the totally new interface of the IQ4, so that did impress upon me that Phase One really did/does need to start from ground zero in writing/developing the updates with this new operating system. But alas, IQ4 users are still impatiently waiting for some basic feature sets. The IQ3, imho, albeit without the megapixels of the IQ4150, remains the mature, solid workhorse MFDB to date. More attention and resources need to be dedicated to establishing the flagship IQ4 as the stable workhorse leader.

    I had great difficulty updating to the latest "beta" firmware. So while many IQ4 users were out playing with Frame Averaging, I sat back on the sidelines only able to read this forum thread, and without being able to try it, was somewhat befuddled and still trying to get my head around this revolutionary (in my mind) feature called Frame Averaging and how to use it. CI's "Bad Brad" was very helpful working with Phase One in helping me to update my IQ4 to the latest firmware with Frame Averaging. In the course of well over thirty emails and a couple of calls, I do recall (and have the email) in which Brad did mention "in order to run the new beta firmware" (emphasis added by me) that my IQ4 would need to be on a certain prior firmware. It was one sentence and I did not think anything of it as it seemed everyone on Dante's forum was having fun except for me. I also don't recall Phase One labeling this as a beta firmware feature update on its release----or at least it was not described well! In the past, it was always the dealer's who put out warnings to take care with updates until techs could test it.

    Waiting for these growing pains to be addressed....

    Ken

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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    You are 100% correct. The firmware was not beta, and this kind of bug simply should not be in a non-beta release of firmware.
    Thank you Doug. In situations like this I look for dealers to advocate and fight on behalf of customers rather than make excuses for the manufacturer.
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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    I am extremely angry. I lost a day's work (which I have to repeat) before I noticed it.

    After the Creative Control Package Update - For me, the image playback works only up to about ~ 350%. For more, only Slush is displayed. Triple Tab 400% = Slush Display, then slowly reduce until we see a picture.

    I have this behavior on the IQ4150 and the IQ4 Achromatic. I have not used frame averaging on the IQ4 Achromatic yet - but IQ4 Achromatic will record 14 bit RAW after the update.

    Greeting Gerd
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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    Boy am I happy I'm still on the IQ3 platform, where I will probably be for a very long time! IMO the IQ4 should not have been shipped before it was completely ready in regards to all specs announced at the launch.

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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    I also have yet to try frame averaging, and obviously my back has this problem.

    I just received the back Friday. I started this whole thing because I was trying to figure out what extra XQD cards to buy: 64gb or 120gb. I like having a capacity between 300-500 images per card. More than that I nervous about too many images being lost if a card goes bad, and I rarely shoot more than 100-200 images in a day anyway (unless I’m tethered). On the 3100, a 64gb CF card was perfect: 422 images. I plugged the P1-supplied 64gb card into the new IQ4 150 and it showed a capacity of 566 images. At first, I was happy. 64gb cards are cheaper than 120gb cards! Then I came back to reality and checked the format. No, that was correct: L16IIQEX

    How could 150mp file be smaller than a 100mp file? So I looked in C1 and sure enough, the file format said "IIQ S Ex.” After some random poking on the DB I figured out if I cycle the format back and forth, the reported capacity changes to what it should be. I experimented and found out the problem: it gets messed up every time I turn off power. So I texted my dealer to ask him if he heard anything about this, and he said no but he would check with Phase. I told him don’t bother, I will create a case since I really should anyway. At that point, I was convinced it was only my back because I could not believe no one else noticed. I created the case with P1 Saturday morning.

    Anyway, Paul and I had been messaging back and forth about live view, so I sent him a message asking if he has noticed this. Again, I figured it was just my back. Paul checked and sure enough, his was doing it too, so he started the thread.

    I really think it is a simple firmware problem. There is stray code in there that makes the back mistakenly reset to 14 bits but does not reset the "Ex" format (or anything else) when powered up. That's why C1 shows "IIQ S Ex," which as far as I know is not a format that exists. AND, obviously there is no code to update the LCD screen when that resets. The action of selecting S14IIQ is the only thing that resets everything back to normal.

    Dave
    Last edited by dchew; 14th July 2019 at 08:10.
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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    Ken,

    If it makes you feel any better, I made the same mistake. I could not update the digital back, and after many attempts, realized that I did not have the previous firmware release prior to this one. I also had read this somewhere, and fortunately remembered it too. I plan to try the frame averaging function for the first time today.

    Cheers,

    John

    Quote Originally Posted by kdphotography View Post
    Paul, thanks for being on "the cutting edge" and pinpointing these issues with the IQ4. I picked up my IQ4 "late in the game" in the hopes that Phase would be closer to caught up with the feature updates/firmware updates. While true I did miss many of the frustrations that the earlier adopters experienced, there are still many that remain to be addressed. I was surprised by the totally new interface of the IQ4, so that did impress upon me that Phase One really did/does need to start from ground zero in writing/developing the updates with this new operating system. But alas, IQ4 users are still impatiently waiting for some basic feature sets. The IQ3, imho, albeit without the megapixels of the IQ4150, remains the mature, solid workhorse MFDB to date. More attention and resources need to be dedicated to establishing the flagship IQ4 as the stable workhorse leader.

    I had great difficulty updating to the latest "beta" firmware. So while many IQ4 users were out playing with Frame Averaging, I sat back on the sidelines only able to read this forum thread, and without being able to try it, was somewhat befuddled and still trying to get my head around this revolutionary (in my mind) feature called Frame Averaging and how to use it. CI's "Bad Brad" was very helpful working with Phase One in helping me to update my IQ4 to the latest firmware with Frame Averaging. In the course of well over thirty emails and a couple of calls, I do recall (and have the email) in which Brad did mention "in order to run the new beta firmware" (emphasis added by me) that my IQ4 would need to be on a certain prior firmware. It was one sentence and I did not think anything of it as it seemed everyone on Dante's forum was having fun except for me. I also don't recall Phase One labeling this as a beta firmware feature update on its release----or at least it was not described well! In the past, it was always the dealer's who put out warnings to take care with updates until techs could test it.

    Waiting for these growing pains to be addressed....

    Ken

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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    I've always taught my kids to say "I'm sorry I made a mistake. I will never do it again and I will be more careful".
    Someone representing Phase One should really have said something like this and apologize to public. I believe this incidence makes some of the Phase One users start to think whether they want to jump ship to Fuji or Hasselblad.
    I have an upcoming trip to Alaska and I was so excited about this hype. I am lucky because my XF is with Phase One in NJ as the body was fallen apart.
    Thanks to Paul!

    Pramote
    Last edited by Landscapelover; 14th July 2019 at 08:33.
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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    To me there is NO excuse for what we are experiencing with the IQ4150. Like others , such as Ken, I too waited until my sales person assured me that at least the Tech cam use was "about" the same as using my IQ3100's. Wish I had kept at least one now.

    Dealers who make excuses for Phase because Phase had to totally rewrite FW for the IQ4150 give me no solice. Dealers who acknowledge Phase errors and short comings right up front and offer work arounds when FW problems are present make me keep coming back.
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    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: IQ4 recording at wrong image format, 14 bit instead of 16 bit EX

    Quote Originally Posted by algrove View Post
    To me there is NO excuse for what we are experiencing with the IQ4150. Like others , such as Ken, I too waited until my sales person assured me that at least the Tech cam use was "about" the same as using my IQ3100's. Wish I had kept at least one now.

    Dealers who make excuses for Phase because Phase had to totally rewrite FW for the IQ4150 give me no solice. Dealers who acknowledge Phase errors and short comings right up front and offer work arounds when FW problems are present make me keep coming back.
    +1 for me too. Iíve held off, knowing that there would be teething problems that Iíd rather others solved first. However, the dealer support is paramount for me when I do make the leap.

    My IQ3100 is still rock solid. Iíll upgrade when the IQ4150 has the same reputation.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    The World is a book, and those that do not travel read only one page ...
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