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Thread: MF Digital Precision

  1. #51
    Senior Member routlaw's Avatar
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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    Quote Originally Posted by Francois_A View Post
    Moreover, one could also take a shot on a Betterlight scanning back in addition to 4x5 film. The image on film would be handy to correct anything that has moved during the scan!
    The best of both worlds!
    I suspect, but could be wrong not having tried it, this might be much harder to implement than imagine. However on a few occasions with the Betterlight in the field I have scanned the same image 2 or 3 times (conditions permitting) with the intent of merging the best of each for any problem areas of movement etc.

    Having followed this thread thoroughly and after reading Joseph Holmes reports as well as looking at the images he posted on the issues of MFDB landscape work, I must say has nipped in the bud at least for now the fascination and ongoing interest in adopting this method of capture for my own work.

    Rob

  2. #52
    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    Quote Originally Posted by routlaw View Post
    I suspect, but could be wrong not having tried it, this might be much harder to implement than imagine. However on a few occasions with the Betterlight in the field I have scanned the same image 2 or 3 times (conditions permitting) with the intent of merging the best of each for any problem areas of movement etc.

    Having followed this thread thoroughly and after reading Joseph Holmes reports as well as looking at the images he posted on the issues of MFDB landscape work, I must say has nipped in the bud at least for now the fascination and ongoing interest in adopting this method of capture for my own work.

    Rob
    Rob, that would be a shame and I am sure it wouldn't be his intention: one of his key arguments is that a lot of people are satisfied with less than optimal results from MFD because they haven't really grasped what it can do when used at its best. I, like him, think that you need to be informed, well advised, critical and methodical but I think we also both think that done properly a P45+ back gives results that better scanned 4x5 film.

    I know that he's about to crop up in this forum himself and can go into more detail on his own behalf but actually I read his articles as meaning that the game is quite certainly worth the candle. You just need to know a lot about the candle.

    Tim
    Last edited by tashley; 13th April 2009 at 14:19.

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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    Equally important to resolution IMO is dynamic range. I bought a Canon G1 after reading the rave review on LL. My fist big deception was the poor exposure latitude of the camera; just as contrasty, if not more, as slide film.
    A big plus for me in moving to MFDB or a scanning back would be the increased exposure latitude and improved tonal transitions.

    It is something hard to quantify, and depends on how much noise one is willing to tolerate, but I wonder if there is any digital solution short of hdr that would allow placing the shadows on zone III and still maintain details in highlights falling on zone VIII, just like one could do with b&w and normal development ?

    Thanks everyone contributing to this thread; very enlightening!

    Francois

  4. #54
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    l but I think we also both think that done properly a P45+ back gives results that better scanned 4x5 film.
    Hmmm... Don't know about that. Properly captured, processed and scanned 4x5 is a thing of remarkable beauty and detail.

    Personally, I'd say that a perfectly captured and scanned 4x5 piece of say Pro 160S will have more detail than the best P45+ file. I'd also say you will likely have more P45+ files closer to perfection than you will 4x5 Astia frames, and that in general, the P45+ files will have broader dynamic range to boot...

    Cheers,
    Jack
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  5. #55
    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Hmmm... Don't know about that. Properly captured, processed and scanned 4x5 is a thing of remarkable beauty and detail.

    Personally, I'd say that a perfectly captured and scanned 4x5 piece of say Pro 160S will have more detail than the best P45+ file. I'd also say you will likely have more P45+ files closer to perfection than you will 4x5 Astia frames, and that in general, the P45+ files will have broader dynamic range to boot...

    Cheers,
    I agree. It's not a slam-dunk in either direction but for me, counting all factors, I get what I feel are better results with the digiback. However there's very little in photographic life that gives as much visceral pleasure as seeing a freshly developed 4x5 tranny on a lightbox with a loupe...

  6. #56
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    I agree. It's not a slam-dunk in either direction but for me, counting all factors, I get what I feel are better results with the digiback. However there's very little in photographic life that gives as much visceral pleasure as seeing a freshly developed 4x5 tranny on a lightbox with a loupe...
    We're on the same wavelength. I'd agree I get a higher percentage of keepers with MF, and for sure it's more convenient than sheet film, but I still feel my best 4x5's are a notch better than my best P45+ files. The other visceral pleasure for me aside from seeing the fine result, was knowing that I'd mastered the technology of the view cam enough to have created it
    Jack
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  7. #57
    Senior Member routlaw's Avatar
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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    Quote Originally Posted by Francois_A View Post

    Equally important to resolution IMO is dynamic range... A big plus for me in moving to MFDB or a scanning back would be the increased exposure latitude and improved tonal transitions.

    Francois
    Francois, this is a very important point! I have felt we all too often obsess over resolution far too much (to the point of absurdity at times) and at the cost of other important factors which you mentioned. Not the least of which is the CONTENT of an image. But it is so easy to get wrapped up in the technological possibilities and options at the expense of drama or beauty.

    Oddly some of the most memorable photographs which come to mind seldom have anything to do with perceived detail and resolution, but rather the content. Just some passing thoughts.

    Rob

  8. #58
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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Thanks Tim,

    I will see what I will do, but all existing solutions seem not workable for me. Maybe the S2 will be better dealing with all that mess.
    The problem with wide angle lenses is the giant mirror box SLR's put between the lens and film. If you want wide lenses with minimal or no distortion that are sharp to the corners then buy a camera without a mirror box. The S2 will not magically overcome these issues is my guess.

    Any digital sensor that has lens put right up next to it will also have trouble with color uniformity (lens cast, white shading, custom gain, blah blah blah). So the tradeoff for truly sharp wides and low distortion is having to deal with the color cast workflow of whatever manufacturer you choose. For many photographers this is worth it, and still less of pain than film, processing, and scanning.

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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    Quote Originally Posted by routlaw View Post
    I have felt we all too often obsess over resolution far too much (to the point of absurdity at times) and at the cost of other important factors which you mentioned. Not the least of which is the CONTENT of an image. But it is so easy to get wrapped up in the technological possibilities and options at the expense of drama or beauty.

    Oddly some of the most memorable photographs which come to mind seldom have anything to do with perceived detail and resolution, but rather the content. Just some passing thoughts.

    Rob
    I wholeheartedly agree Rob! Speaking of content, it is worth quoting Ansel Adams:

    "... in discussing mechanical or optical issues we must not lose sight of the much greater importance of image content--emotional, aesthetic, or literal. I believe there is nothing more disturbing than a sharp image of a fuzzy concept!" The Negative, p. 73

    Francois

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    Quote Originally Posted by routlaw View Post
    FI have felt we all too often obsess over resolution far too much (to the point of absurdity at times) and at the cost of other important factors which you mentioned. Not the least of which is the CONTENT of an image.
    Heretic!!!

    Seriously Rob, you've hit the nail on the head. It's the point I was trying to make earlier in this thread.

    Cheers,
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  11. #61
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    I'm getting a headache.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    Quote Originally Posted by Francois_A View Post
    I wholeheartedly agree Rob! Speaking of content, it is worth quoting Ansel Adams:

    "... in discussing mechanical or optical issues we must not lose sight of the much greater importance of image content--emotional, aesthetic, or literal. I believe there is nothing more disturbing than a sharp image of a fuzzy concept!" The Negative, p. 73

    Francois
    I knew there was a reason why I liked Ansel, heck I even learned his Zone system. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  13. #63
    Senior Member routlaw's Avatar
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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Rob, that would be a shame and I am sure it wouldn't be his intention: one of his key arguments is that a lot of people are satisfied with less than optimal results from MFD because they haven't really grasped what it can do when used at its best.

    Tim
    Understood... but I do have my Betterlight, and it ain't too shabby when it comes to image quality albeit there are many cameras MFDB's included that can run circles around it for useability.

    But having read his review, finding sensible value with these systems for the intended purpose of landscape or other wide angle photography seems more of a stretch now for me. More importantly, how many marvelous images given his talent did he miss from running camera/lens test for this extended period? A lot of film could have been exposed and scanned in this time, and in fact there is a multitude of ways he could have produced outstanding images during this same period. Put another way why should anyone spend valuable time within reason, being a beta tester for expensive camera companies when they could be adding images with content to their library and files and dare I say it perhaps even their bottom line.

    I don't want to sound to harsh here after all I have been enamored with and lusted after many of the same camera systems for a long period of time as well. Just raising questions as much as anything. One thing for sure, during the heyday of film photographers did not spend this level of time testing gear... though a few shoots here and there might have been given up due to labs or other mishaps.

    Quote Originally Posted by Francois_A View Post

    ...quoting Ansel Adams:

    "... in discussing mechanical or optical issues we must not lose sight of the much greater importance of image content--emotional, aesthetic, or literal. I believe there is nothing more disturbing than a sharp image of a fuzzy concept!" The Negative, p. 73

    Francois
    Here, here!!!

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    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    I will be testing the Phase One system tomorrow, including a 28 lens and a P65+ back. Will let you know my findings, but I think it should work perfect, as it is the demo system of the local Phase One representative in Austria

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    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithL View Post
    Really, if you can make high resolution 80"x60" fine art prints from 6x6 film that you would define as great then you have discovered the Holy Grail and should stick with it.

    Personally I wouldn't take 5x4 sheet film up to that size, let alone anything that comes out of a roll film camera.
    I get your point

    Well - coming from 35mm photography (Leica, Canon, Nikon) then suddenly 6x6 material looks overwhelming. I must say I will also have a look into 5x4 sheet film cameras, and I absolutely agree and by no way want to argue that these deliver superior results to all MF (digital and analog) today, BUT I have the feeling that this is too time consuming, expensive for my work and most importantly I feel that nobody will pay for the difference in results.

    Please correct me if you see this differently.

  16. #66
    Senior Member KeithL's Avatar
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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    Peter

    My point is that image quality is subjective.

    My subjective opinion is that 10x enlargement is as much as I'm comfortable with, regardless of film size.

    My initial observations with the Hasselblad H3D11-22 are that the files are wonderfully clean and will take a greater enlargement ratio than any film I've encountered. So, in other words, I'd be happy to go way beyond that 10x factor when printing from the MFD files.

    Keith

    BTW, I wouldn't even consider using sheet film now.

  17. #67
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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    Just a thought, there are easier to use 6X9 options out there (such as the Mamiya press) which will give you even greater quality with your scanning workflow for what will still be a fraction of the price of a MFDB solution. Unless you have a lot of spare cash it's doubtful that MFDB's make any sense at all unless backed up by a good business plan that agrees with their purchase. For serious shooting but outside of a pro enviroment dictating their use, film might make more sense than digital should you already have a good scanning workflow and specifically require a MF solution.

    I know it might be heresy but have you thought of a DSLR and stitching given that you are shooting landscapes? I gave up on LF when I realised how much easier stitching was for my needs, you get stupid amounts of tonality and resolution due to the amount of pixels used (and size of pixels on my 5D!), less DOF issues, ability to use clean high iso's and of course it's less hassle to set up and shoot, faster as well IMO. Oh and it fits in such a small bag!

    See www.studio-beni.net/jerusalem for some stitched work, all but two of those are stitched ranging from 33 to 55 megapixels.
    Last edited by Ben Rubinstein; 14th April 2009 at 02:06.
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  18. #68
    Senior Member KeithL's Avatar
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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    The Hassy guys will no doubt defend their 28mm lens but I have seen results from it that a Hassy dealer was very pleased with and they sucked in a low key way. Similar to the Phase/Mamiya 28D, possibly slightly worse.
    I tested my newly aquired HCD 4/28 this morning, took two images, or rather two views of the same subject. My heart sunk on viewing the first, it was a real disappointment, soft corners and weird distortions. The second was a revelation, sharp right across the frame and perfect perspective. The cause, well, user error.

    The point about these super-wides, and believe me 28mm on a 49x37mm sensor is spectacularly wide, is that they need to be very carefully positioned in relation to the subject, failure to do this accurately leads to all kinds of distortion. The second point is that it takes a while to appreciate just how much subject is in the frame and just how much depth of field is needed to cover the subject, failure to appreciate this and allow for it results in the appearance of soft corners.

    Now, Iím not saying that everything Joseph or for that matter Tim have witnessed is down to user error, just that these lenses need extreme care in use.

    Thank God I took that second shot and got it right!

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    You also have nice software that makes great corrections for the 28mm as well as the Mamiya. Both Hassy and Mamiya have done a nice job with there software for these lenses.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    Sorry guys, these lenses, shot under optimal conditions, correctly positioned, with every possible wind in the right direction, are soft in the corners. They are miracles of engineering, better than anyone expected given the constraints, helped by good software but the simple fact remains: they are soft in the corners.

  21. #71
    Senior Member KeithL's Avatar
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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    Tashley? Tim?, Apologies, I haven't a clue who you are, would you be suggesting that I'm mistaken, or that my eyes are deceiving me, or I don't know how to judge images, or I haven't enough experience in judging images, or even perhaps that I'm lying?

  22. #72
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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    You seem to have said that about them...
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

    Website: http://www.timelessjewishart.com

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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithL View Post
    Tashley? Tim?, Apologies, I haven't a clue who you are, would you be suggesting that I'm mistaken, or that my eyes are deceiving me, or I don't know how to judge images, or I haven't enough experience in judging images, or even perhaps that I'm lying?
    David Grover from Hasselblad has posted some crops of corners from the HC28mm lens at: http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/...0&#entry276279.
    They look quite impressive to me, and these are JPEGs. Perhaps Tim should try it for himself.

  24. #74
    Senior Member KeithL's Avatar
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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    You seem to have said that about them...
    Tashley has suggested that all Mamiya and Hasselblad 28mm lenses have soft corners. I'm saying that mine hasn't.

    Perhaps Tashley has tested many examples of the HCD 28, in which case he has an advantage over me as I've only tested the one, my own.

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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    (I guess the expected refutation will be that they are still soft, and NOT landscapes!)

    Seriously, these are looking pretty darn good. I still think, as Ben has commented, if one is so nearly obsessive about the corners and still needs wide to go large for print, then shoot with good piece of less wide glass that is tack sharp to the corners and stitch a couple of frames. Expecting extreme sharpness in the corners of a 28mm lens on MF is pushing the limits.....unless you are prepared to spend a huge amount of money for a tech camera and lens, which is NOT the direction being discussed.

    One of the biggest advantages of shooting MF over say 35mm DSLR, is that you are getting a much larger image file to both deliver more detail and to permit cropping if needed. If the 28mm is tad soft in the corners, as Guy said, take a step or two back and crop the frame a tiny bit, or shoot a bit longer lens and stitch a couple of frames. While I appreciate the great desire to have corner to corner perfection, I am also realistic in what can be delivered for what cost and use. I would venture to say the most folks buying and shooting a 28mm are doing so to capture the broader perspective and setting, and are going to take care to eliminate "soft corners" by making sure the subjects in those corners are inconsequential to the image itself. (Oh wait, that gets into composition and subject matter.....my, my.)

    Just a few thoughts after wending through this thread and wondering WTF!!!

    LJ

  26. #76
    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithL View Post
    Tashley? Tim?, Apologies, I haven't a clue who you are, would you be suggesting that I'm mistaken, or that my eyes are deceiving me, or I don't know how to judge images, or I haven't enough experience in judging images, or even perhaps that I'm lying?
    Keith, I have no intention of accusing you of lying. I don't have the Hasselbald lens but I was sent an example of it's output as being a really good file and a ringing endorsment of its powers by someone from Hasselblad who was being extremely helpful. It was without any doubt soft in the corners. As have every example of every Mammy 28D I have ever seen been, whether taken by me or by anyone else.

    I fully agree that positioning relative to subject is important but nonetheless I have never had one shot from mine, which is the third one I've had and as good as any I've seen, which satisfies me in the corners. I use the word 'soft'. It's relative. For me it's relative to a Schneider 35XL on a Cambo with the same back. Or it's relative to a 28 Cron on an M8. Or a 24-105L zoom on a 1DSIII.

    No rude intent here.

    Tim

  27. #77
    Senior Member stephengilbert's Avatar
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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    Tim,

    Any chance of stopping this when it gets to a hundred posts?

    Steve

  28. #78
    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    Quote Originally Posted by LJL View Post
    (I guess the expected refutation will be that they are still soft, and NOT landscapes!)

    Seriously, these are looking pretty darn good. I still think, as Ben has commented, if one is so nearly obsessive about the corners and still needs wide to go large for print, then shoot with good piece of less wide glass that is tack sharp to the corners and stitch a couple of frames. Expecting extreme sharpness in the corners of a 28mm lens on MF is pushing the limits.....unless you are prepared to spend a huge amount of money for a tech camera and lens, which is NOT the direction being discussed.
    I'm making no friends here but I politely disagree: IMHO there's not much point shelling out an absolute fortune for a 39mp back and then putting glass on it that can't live up to what it does. Having seen the results from the 28D I did make the extra investment in a tech camera and glass and I do now get the results the back can deliver. This is exactly what Joe Holmes was talking about!

    Quote Originally Posted by LJL View Post

    One of the biggest advantages of shooting MF over say 35mm DSLR, is that you are getting a much larger image file to both deliver more detail and to permit cropping if needed. If the 28mm is tad soft in the corners, as Guy said, take a step or two back and crop the frame a tiny bit, or shoot a bit longer lens and stitch a couple of frames. While I appreciate the great desire to have corner to corner perfection, I am also realistic in what can be delivered for what cost and use. I would venture to say the most folks buying and shooting a 28mm are doing so to capture the broader perspective and setting, and are going to take care to eliminate "soft corners" by making sure the subjects in those corners are inconsequential to the image itself. (Oh wait, that gets into composition and subject matter.....my, my.)

    Just a few thoughts after wending through this thread and wondering WTF!!!

    LJ
    I totally agree that not all shots need it but the stuff I'm currently shooting does and as I've mentioned before, if I have to crop the soggy corners off I end up with a file not much larger than a FF DSLR, most of which have lenses available that can be brutally sharp to the corners. To put this in context, an M8 file shot at F5 with a 28 Cron will have sharper corners in an uncropped 20" wide print than any 28D file on a P45+. Sure there will be more resolution and detail such that I could crop heavily but hey, I framed it like I framed it. If I wanted a less wide view I'd but a less wide lens!

    For a lot of work it's not a problem. I do understand that!

    Tim

  29. #79
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    28 cron on a M8 is a 35mm . A 28mm on Hassy or Phase is 21mm in 35 equivalent. On a M8 that is a 15mm lens and the canon starts at 24mm so none of the above you mentioned are in fact equivalent to a 21mm in 35mm FF format. A Tri elmar at 16mm on a M8 would be and in Canon you have to go to a alternate lens to even think about getting something sharp in the corners for a 21mm. Only one lens I know of the Zeiss 21mm and the Leica 19mm is soft in the corners BTW, so is the 16-35 . We are talking a 21mm equivalent here. At least this what I had to deal with when I shot Canon , things may have changed since than. A 35mm Scneider you can't compare against. The ONLY lens that you can compare in MF is a Rodenstock 28mm lens.
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  30. #80
    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    Tim,

    Any chance of stopping this when it gets to a hundred posts?

    Steve
    I once posted a thread on LUF suggesting (proving in fact) that the 35 Lux has a tendency to back focus on the M8. Despite the fact that I had an email from Leica themselves stating that this was true, the denials ran to many hundreds of posts. That was when I learned that there really are miracle lenses out there!

  31. #81
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    The 35 lux does have issues . Leica told me that also but Tim you have to compare lenses that fall in the same focal length or effective focal length. In the MF world that is a 21mm depending on back of course but the only lens we can compare here is the Rodenstock to make any sense at all. It's a great lens but I don't know about the corners myself. I think this is where the confusion is a 35mm Schnieder will always be better than a 28mm regardless who makes it the longer the lens the less of a corner issue. For you that is the lens you should have on the Cambo not the Mamiya 28mm
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  32. #82
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    but Tim you have to compare lenses that fall in the same focal length or effective focal length.
    Exactly... The 28 Cron on the M8 is equivalent to the 55 in front of my Phase, and I'll stack that final file up against anything made with an equivalent focal on any smaller sensor

    Cheers,
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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    Mamiya can make great wide angles; for instance the 43mm for the Mamiya 7 is very sharp in the corners. Building a great retrofocus wide angle for reflex cameras is inherently more complicated; so the comparison is unfair IMHO.

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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    I don't have the Hasselbald lens but I was sent an example of it's output as being a really good file and a ringing endorsment of its powers by someone from Hasselblad who was being extremely helpful. It was without any doubt soft in the corners. As have every example of every Mammy 28D I have ever seen been, whether taken by me or by anyone else.
    Tim
    Tim, I've no personal experience of the Mamiya 28D and therefore wouldn't dream of passing judgement on it. I never judge a lens based on third party output.

    My HCD 28mm is as good or bad as I make it. When I get it wrong the results suck, but it's my fault and is no reflection on the lens. Get it right and I can see no softening of the corners.

    I won't be using this lens for landscape, not because the lens isn't suited, but because I hate wide lens landscapes, hate the perspective, much preferring the natural perspective of standard lenses. The 28mm will never leave dank, dark and narrow Greek alleyways; one almost feels sorry for it.

    Keith

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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    Quote Originally Posted by Francois_A View Post
    Mamiya can make great wide angles; for instance the 43mm for the Mamiya 7 is very sharp in the corners. Building a great retrofocus wide angle for reflex cameras is inherently more complicated; so the comparison is unfair IMHO.
    Sorry Francois but I cannot agree.

    There are two propositions here.

    1) The 28D is a great lens, sharp to the corners. Not true.
    2) The 28D is a great lens given the technical constraints. True.

    I'm not interested in fair, to be honest. I want one very, very simple thing: I want anyone who is considering purchasing an MFD system to know that coughing up a pile of dough does not buy visual nirvana. If you want to get the best performance out of a P45+ or equivalent back using wide angle lenses, you will most likely have to get a tech camera and a lens that isn't built around a mirror.

    I cannot see anyone really trying to disagree with this.

    Tim
    Last edited by tashley; 14th April 2009 at 15:24.

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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithL View Post
    Tim, I've no personal experience of the Mamiya 28D and therefore wouldn't dream of passing judgement on it. I never judge a lens based on third party output.

    My HCD 28mm is as good or bad as I make it. When I get it wrong the results suck, but it's my fault and is no reflection on the lens. Get it right and I can see no softening of the corners.

    I won't be using this lens for landscape, not because the lens isn't suited, but because I hate wide lens landscapes, hate the perspective, much preferring the natural perspective of standard lenses. The 28mm will never leave dank, dark and narrow Greek alleyways; one almost feels sorry for it.

    Keith
    Keith, I appreciate the good manners and good humour of your reply, thank you.

    My minor disagreement is that we all judge lenses in two stages:

    1) Review and recommendation followed by...
    2) Purchase and personal assessment.

    I'm simply trying to square the circle between my 2) and the next punter's 1) so that people know what they might realistically expect!

    And if you ever post a sharp shot of the dark corners of a Greek alleyway I will personally put dust on your sensor!

    ;-)

    Tim

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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Exactly... The 28 Cron on the M8 is equivalent to the 55 in front of my Phase, and I'll stack that final file up against anything made with an equivalent focal on any smaller sensor

    Cheers,
    Jack,

    A 28 is a 28 is a 28.

    It's FOV may vary as the image capture device onto which it projects varies in size but its focal length does not.

    My proposition (which I know in fact that you and Guy both agree with in general) is merely that the 28D cannot project sufficiently well to the P45+ sensor's ability to resolve its own corners.

    It can be cropped, you can frame wider to account for that, you can sharpen in post, you can adjust the capture angle upwards or you can just hope no one notices but....

    "if you shoot the 28D on a P45+ with a dead levelled tripod at average male eye height and F16 on flat ground you will get soft corners unless you shift the focus distance ring so as to blur infinity"

    As I've posted elsewhere in this thread, 'soft' is relative. So I should qualify the above by saying that 'soft (to me) corners'.
    Last edited by tashley; 14th April 2009 at 15:39.

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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    The 35 lux does have issues . Leica told me that also but Tim you have to compare lenses that fall in the same focal length or effective focal length. In the MF world that is a 21mm depending on back of course but the only lens we can compare here is the Rodenstock to make any sense at all. It's a great lens but I don't know about the corners myself. I think this is where the confusion is a 35mm Schnieder will always be better than a 28mm regardless who makes it the longer the lens the less of a corner issue. For you that is the lens you should have on the Cambo not the Mamiya 28mm
    I'll go out on a limb here: if I put a 23 Rodi on the Cambo it will have sharper corners than the 28D.

    All I am saying is that building wides around mirror boxes involves compromises and that these compromises mean you will not get the best the sensor can deliver. In other words, the results will be softer in the corners than is possible with other uses of the same sensor. It's not about fair, it's not about value, it's just about optics!

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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    Tim no one said any different I have been saying all along it's a awesome 30mm lens. Which translates into a 22 or 23mm/ 35mm focal length equivalent on your back as well as mine. What I am saying is there are only 3 lenses in MF with that focal length that compare against each other , no other lens matters in any focal length and on any system. With that I am out of this conversation.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    Agreed... Tim, you are now tilting at windmills.
    Jack
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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Agreed... Tim, you are now tilting at windmills.
    yup, because them windmills have got four arms and they keep on comin'!


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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    Tim, I have started thinking about saving for the S2 and you might want to do the same Pixels which are as sharp in the corners as in the middle are hard to find in the perfect package (Cambo doesn't focus). As much as I love the entire photographic process, there are too many limitations getting in the way of the vision here, IMO. I won't be buying on day 1 though. First of all, I won't have the cash by then Secondly, I want to see that things get done right. But that is where my hope is right now.
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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Tim, I have started thinking about saving for the S2 and you might want to do the same Pixels which are as sharp in the corners as in the middle are hard to find in the perfect package (Cambo doesn't focus). As much as I love the entire photographic process, there are too many limitations getting in the way of the vision here, IMO. I won't be buying on day 1 though. First of all, I won't have the cash by then Secondly, I want to see that things get done right. But that is where my hope is right now.
    Why would an S2 solve the problem that Tim has highlighted? Did I misunderstand, and the S2 is a giant rangefinder without a mirror box? Do not the same optical limitations apply to Leica as any other maker of SLR type MFD cameras? Most of all, IF expectations are higher than delivery, there's no putting the S2 on a view-camera.

    I think this is a matter of degree of expectation. When I put my Schneider 28/2.8 digitar on the Rollei Xact-II my expectations are higher than with the HC-28/4 on the H3D-II ... using the same 39 meg digital back.

    However, I also know the HC-28 is no slouch, and neither is my HC-35 mm. I control tested the 35 against a Ziess 40CFE on the same camera/back, and the HC lens trounced the Zeiss at the edges (I now have the Ziess 40IF, and need to repeat that test again.) My expectation for the H3D-II system are not low, just tempered with the knowledge that there are some compromises being made in the name of speed and versatility ... I'm not good enough to shoot spontaneous, wider angle environmental action portraits with a Rollei Xact

    On another note, I have a Rodenstock 120 APO digital macro, (the second one BTW, because the first one was disappointing and couldn't be shimmed to fix it either) ... and without using T/S my HC 120/4 Macro outperforms it in every way. Next stop is a Schneider 120 macro to see if it might be better ... IF the image circle can accommodate severe tilts for macro tabletop work.

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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Tim, I have started thinking about saving for the S2 and you might want to do the same Pixels which are as sharp in the corners as in the middle are hard to find in the perfect package (Cambo doesn't focus). As much as I love the entire photographic process, there are too many limitations getting in the way of the vision here, IMO. I won't be buying on day 1 though. First of all, I won't have the cash by then Secondly, I want to see that things get done right. But that is where my hope is right now.
    I have to say I am sorely tempted... I see no real reasons for staying with a P45+/Phamiya combination. I think the sensor is amazing but the body sucks and wider lenses, as all my windmill tilting display me to think, lose you the edges. At least in my case. In which case there is no MP advantage (after the cropping of soft areas) over the S2.

    The reason for staying with the Phase back over the S2, though, is the Cambo/Schneider combination that allows stitching to create 80mp files. Since the movements are on the back there's no need for messing about with nodal point stuff, which is a benefit but since I've never tried it, it might be easier than I think.

    WRT focus the Cambo is generally but not always ok: at least with the 35XL you just use F16 and pull focus a touch back from infinity and you have a nicely sharp image from about 1.5 metres away to infinity. The Schneider is a great lens.

    If the S2 is all it's cracked to be, especially if the higher ISO performance is good, and if I can get my head around nodal point shooting, I'll ditch the phase gear in a heartbeat: I like wide angles and unfortunately what with design constraints and QC issues it seem hard to get good results from lenses shorter than about 50mm. But my 80mm and 150mm lenses are very very sharp indeed and produce files that make you go 'oooooh!'

    Anopther advantage would be the ability to sell my 5DII and glass which, together with all the MF gear would go a long way towards paying for an S2 setup...

    Hmmm...

    ;-)

    Tim

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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    Marc, I understand about expectations and compromises, but Tim has indicated that he is not interested in them, he just wants the absolute best results possible, and that means corners as sharp as the center. The S2 with lenses from Leica may achieve this. Given Leica's existing lenses, which are generally sharp from wide open, and in the case of the very wide angles, sharp when stopped down a little, I think it is not unreasonable to expect something great there. Yes, one might have to try a couple of copies. Leica is of course subject to the same physical laws, but it is in the nature of the company not to seek compromises, but to go all out, so the 24mm super wide, for example, I expect to be sharper (and more expensive) than the Mamiya and even the Hasselblad equivalents.
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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    Tim, there is the 30mm T/S coming up at some point. This is all in the future, and there is clearly some unfounded optimism involved, but I am crossing my fingers. The ISO performance will almost certainly be better than for the P45+, if for no other reason than it is a much newer design.
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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    Quote Originally Posted by Francois_A View Post
    Mamiya can make great wide angles; for instance the 43mm for the Mamiya 7 is very sharp in the corners. Building a great retrofocus wide angle for reflex cameras is inherently more complicated; so the comparison is unfair IMHO.
    I would stack up the Mamiya 7II 43mm lens against almost any wide angle out there. It is expensive to be sure and of course works only on the Mamiya film bodies. But it is worthwhile to compare what can be done in this realm and hope that the MFDB folks (Hassy and Phase) come up with lenses of similar performance

    Woody

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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    re: nodal point panos:

    the way you find that you are swinging about the nodal point is to check the images from two over-lapped frames. what you are looking for is no parallax change, best seen by examining the relationship between a near and a far object (like two posts that are lined up but one in the foreground, one in the distance).
    the point here being that if you are shooting landscapes, typically there is no close foreground, so parallax is not an issue and you can pan about almost any axis with no visible bad effects

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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    Jim, that is true to some extent, but when using a super-wide, there is always the ground you are standing on... I see this when using the Leica 16-18-21 at 16mm (with your filter adapter ), and there are pavement cracks or flowers or anything really, which is noticeable and close to the camera.
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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    Re parallax, you can check it for a pan-stich through the VF of an SLR before the capture since you are viewing through the lens... And yes, a camera with back shifts automatically does them parallax-free since with shift-stitches you are essentially moving the back across the lens' IC.

    Tim, FWIW *either* method is easy to do once you get your head around the process. I captured the 4-frames for the pano I showed earlier in this thread in under 30 seconds. Frankly, doing captures for focus blending takes more time because of the focus precision required.

    Cheers,
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