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Thread: MF Digital Precision

  1. #101
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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Marc, I understand about expectations and compromises, but Tim has indicated that he is not interested in them, he just wants the absolute best results possible, and that means corners as sharp as the center. The S2 with lenses from Leica may achieve this. Given Leica's existing lenses, which are generally sharp from wide open, and in the case of the very wide angles, sharp when stopped down a little, I think it is not unreasonable to expect something great there. Yes, one might have to try a couple of copies. Leica is of course subject to the same physical laws, but it is in the nature of the company not to seek compromises, but to go all out, so the 24mm super wide, for example, I expect to be sharper (and more expensive) than the Mamiya and even the Hasselblad equivalents.
    I agree with Carsten here.

    We haven't seen any MTF charts from the 24mm f/2.8 yet, but if the 35mm f/2.5 CS is any indication of wide performance, I have no doubt that the 24 will be staggeringly sharp and even across the entire frame. I would also venture to predict that the 30-90 f/3.5 will be exceptionally good as well.

    And remember Leica's repeated mantra that no s/w correction is necessary when you get the lens design right in the first place. Looking at the MTFs for the first four lenses, their claim seems to hold a measure of credibility. Obviously, results will count more than charts. Patience, grasshopper, patience....

    David
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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    I feel compelled to share this quote by Michael Reichmann taken from a similar thread on his LL forum:

    "Joe's findings need to be taken with a grain of salt. This is not a universal finding.

    For example, I have now worked with three different P65+ backs on two different bodies and with 6 different lenses, and my most critical analysis has not shown there to be any misalignment issues.

    I'm not saying that Joe's findings aren't actual, I'm sure that they are, but they are not universal.

    The reason that I wrote my latest article, published with today's date, is that I found that meticulous technique was as big a factor as anything else in ensuring optimum image quality.

    What also needs to be mentioned is that Joe is one of the most critical people that you're likely to find when it comes to image analysis. What many people would accept as "just fine" Joe would reject as substandard.

    And finally, it's only when you see what is actually possible, that you become critical of anything less.

    Michael"

    Here is a link to that thread: http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/...howtopic=33801

    Here is a link to Michael's article about using MF DB's and meticulous technique. FTR, improper technique is where I believe the bulk of the problem lies with most folks who seem to have chronic issues with gear, though I can exclude Joe Holmes from this group and I suspect that other folks have been unlucky as well. As Michael indicated, Joe is indeed critical and I believe he additionally had a run of bad luck. Moreover, I know Joe knows proper shooting and testing technique and trust his results: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/mf-easy.shtml
    Jack
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  3. #103
    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    Folks,

    some new oil into the fire. And please understand that I am really new to MF digital photography, so my observations are those of a beginner. But I have some thoughts I wanted to share and see what you think especially those of you who are working daily with digital MF systems already.

    Yesterday I had the chance to test a Phase One camera with P65+ back and 80, 28 and 150 D lenses. First impression - GREAT - especially if you walk around with this type of equipment you immediately become the star So far, this is the fun part everybody likes.

    The representation who gave me the camera was very friendly, very supportive and very knowledgeable. Really enjoyed it and could think of working closely with them for support issues. The cam and the controls work nicely, actually the whole thing felt very much like my old Contax 645 back in the analog days. I also was impressed by the back and also by the lenses - in general. And of course the resolution, colors etc etc.

    Now the less fun part. Once we had the whole session on the computer - of course in Capture One, which BTW I know pretty well from the past and started to like again - think I would need to work on a new workflow for digital MF photography anyway - we started to look into the pictures in more detail. 100% crop or even larger and then one could clearly see:

    1) softer corners of the 28 (all relative, but clear to see)
    2) CA in almost all pictures from all lenses (not too much but it is there).
    3) Distortion of the 28 - could live with that one for landscapes of course, but also there.

    Now of course one can correct all this by SW, it is just a few mouse clicks in C1 - but it actually has to be done for every picture.

    How do you all handle this? Does digital MF photography mean that one has to spend this time after each session behind the computer in order to get best results? Will this be gone with Leica's S2 system, as they claim that they do everything correct already in optics and thus later need no SW corrections?

    Not that I could not live with all that corrections, as changing from analog to digital MF workflow spares a lot of time anyway, but I would like to get your opinion if these corrections are necessary, will eventually go away with future SW or future systems, or if we are (I am) just hysteric as these types of picture failures were always there, but we start only now paying attention.

    The answers are pretty important for me, as I have currently NO MF digital (or analog) solution, and I could wait buying one till the S System is on the market and solves maybe all these issues.

    BTW - found an answer at least for me for my question WRT how many MP one needs for making 80" x 60" prints - definitely 37, or 39 MP are enough. I saw prints from 22MP backs and this convinced me I actually would not really need more than say 40MP, giving very high quality, which is definitely on par - or even better with what I could achieve with analog 6x6 and high end scanning.

    So at least this is a first answer in the whole MF digital puzzle for me and YES, I could "survive" with a Leica S System - sorry for this arrogance here. And I would really do so, if you folks can convince me here, that Leica is going to make all of this digital MF photography easier because they need no (almost no) SW corrections. Their support is of course a different issue.

    Waiting for your advise .....
    Last edited by ptomsu; 15th April 2009 at 22:44.

  4. #104
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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    Peter, there are some of us who are convinced that Leica will pull off a good system with lenses sharp to the corner and minimal correction required, but speaking personally, I am convinced, but only for myself. I would never try to make someone buy based on my own conviction. We will definitely have to wait on this one.

    If you decided to go with a Phase system, isn't there some way to automate these corrections?
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    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Peter, there are some of us who are convinced that Leica will pull off a good system with lenses sharp to the corner and minimal correction required, but speaking personally, I am convinced, but only for myself. I would never try to make someone buy based on my own conviction. We will definitely have to wait on this one.

    If you decided to go with a Phase system, isn't there some way to automate these corrections?
    I am thankful for all opinions and inputs.

    I will check how these corrections can be automated. Maybe also the new camera model coming this summer will do some of these corrections together with the back already in the camera - so corrected files would come out.

    Anyway I am getting more and more interest about the Leica solution and more and more nervous about all the other existing solutions, the deeper I dig into all this MF digital "mess"

  6. #106
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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    I guess the big question mark is how well Leica executes. I think we are dealing with a re-born company under Herr Doktor Kaufmann, and that they are facing the true problems head-on, but I might only be deluding myself based on hope. For me the biggest worry is if they can get the basics right for the launch (optimistic), and if they can set up a service acceptable to pros (skeptical).

    Removing one interface from the equation (digital back-camera), having no swappable viewfinders (think focusing screen), and having no legacy lenses to deal with can only help them get the tolerances under control, so they definitely have one leg up on the competition from the beginning. The slightly smaller sensor also helps here, for sensor alignment accuracy.

    Personally I am beginning to reformulate my long-term path into MF digital. I wanted to get the Sinar eMotion 54LV, but once I discovered that it cannot do exposures long enough for me to do dusk HDR sequences, I wanted the P25+ or P30+.

    Now I am thinking more and more that I will just pick up some older, cheaper 16 or 22MP back and use that for a while, and then eventually move to the S2. That will take some time, as the price will be quite forbidding, but I have nothing but time, not being a pro.
    Carsten - Website

  7. #107
    Senior Member KeithL's Avatar
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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    1) softer corners of the 28 (all relative, but clear to see)
    2) CA in almost all pictures from all lenses (not too much but it is there).
    3) Distortion of the 28 - could live with that one for landscapes of course, but also there.
    Peter

    MFD doesn't have to be like this, but having said that the more pixels that are crammed on to the sensor the more likely it is that you'll see and have to deal with artefacts.

    My own experience is - and keep in mind that I'm using a H3D11-22 so the 'pixel size' is larger than most - I've yet to experience CA, even when using the 28mm and even when turning off the Hasselblad DAC corrections. Watching the DACs correct for distortion is fascinating particularly when using the 28mm, yes, as you would expect plenty of distortion but beautifully handled by the corrections. The corrections also handle vignetting.

    As I've said in a previous post I've yet to see any problem with the 28mm corners - I'm not sure if the DAC distortion corrections have an effect here - perhaps this is also a product of the fat pixels?

    So there you go, as you will gather I'm a very happy bunny which is definitely an effect of the H3D11 and the incredible automatically applied DAC corrections!

    Keith

  8. #108
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Peter, there are some of us who are convinced that Leica will pull off a good system with lenses sharp to the corner and minimal correction required, but speaking personally, I am convinced, but only for myself. I would never try to make someone buy based on my own conviction. We will definitely have to wait on this one.

    If you decided to go with a Phase system, isn't there some way to automate these corrections?
    Very simple process select one 28mm lens for example do the lens corrections or whatever you want right click on thumbnail copy adjusts than select all the ones you want and apply corrections to one or as many as you want. The Mamiya 28 actually has less lens distortion when viewing than the Hassy but they both are corrected very nicely in there software.

    We keep talking the S2 and I don't buy any of it for a second with there 24mm lens or almost any other lens. I would rather bet on a turtle winning a race. Sorry no one is going to convince me there is no distortion or Leica is not doing the corrections internally in camera to the Raws. Folks they do that today with the M8. Your listening to marketing BS. This is STILL a retro focus design.
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  9. #109
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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    Guy, I don't think anyone has claimed that there will be no distortion. What people want here is sharp corners, and not sharp for a lens of that focal length, but just sharp, period.

    The corrections in the M8 are limited to cyan corner correction and vignetting, both just colour value changes limited to each pixel.
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Very simple process select one 28mm lens for example do the lens corrections or whatever you want right click on thumbnail copy adjusts than select all the ones you want and apply corrections to one or as many as you want. The Mamiya 28 actually has less lens distortion when viewing than the Hassy but they both are corrected very nicely in there software.

    We keep talking the S2 and I don't buy any of it for a second with there 24mm lens. I would rather bet on a turtle winning a race. Sorry no one is going to convince me there is no distortion or Leica is not doing the corrections internally in camera to the Raws. Folks they do that today with the M8. Your listening to marketing BS. This is STILL a retro focus design.
    Guy, C1 doesn't have a check box to automatically apply lens corrections?

    In Phocus, I have it checked and leave it checked ... so it applies the correction to all lenses covered (28mm to 100mm). If I don't want it for certain shots, I select that shot and uncheck the DAC box.

    Seems Phase could easily include that in a software update.

  11. #111
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    As I said several times and actually Hassy from what I am told also is there file actually is a 30mm after the corrections. The same with Mamiya it is about a 30mm lens. The issue with both lenses is the curvature of the lens and Leica will have the same issue. There simply is no getting around this issue. Who said the Hassy and Mamiya are not sharp . I shoot this everyday and they are sharp but the extreme corners are not unless you make it about a 30mm lens. I am speaking of Mamiya here and don't want to assume to much on the Hassy. I will let David address that

    BTW the M8 is doing more than that in camera there are micro lenses that gather light in the corners and also as Robert pointed out several times on the forums is effectively sharpening the corners. That I am not sure about and actually argued about
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Guy, C1 doesn't have a check box to automatically apply lens corrections?

    In Phocus, I have it checked and leave it checked ... so it applies the correction to all lenses covered (28mm to 100mm). If I don't want it for certain shots, I select that shot and uncheck the DAC box.

    Seems Phase could easily include that in a software update.
    Yes in the lens corrections they could add some features here . You do have to select the actually lens in lens corrections. That should be automatic in my opinion. Once you select say the 28mm ( looking at it right now actually) than certain check boxes are automatic CA, Distortion and light falloff these adjustments are made when you pick that lens. The ones unchecked are Purple fringing,sharpness falloff and vignetting. Now i could check and slide things around than copy that and apply them to any amount I want which is pretty simple. But i agree the automatic lens selection should come up when that lens is in preview. Would save some time. or at least give us a master control in preferences or something.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    These are all uncropped . Someone said i was cropping to 30mm and that is not true anything I have showed here is full frame . First one is uncorrected and the second one is corrected for distortion , corner sharpness and such. Shot at F11
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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    You may see a slight barrel distortion correction but you almost have to watch it happen in the software. I 'm sure in Phocus you can see the same effect when it is being applied. i can show the bottom left corner also with and without the corner sharpening applied this is NEW for the 28mm in 4.7 and not in any earlier versions.
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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    Here the extreme left corner without the corrections applied and with sharpness corner applied at a setting of 160. Which is not that aggressive. To me that is a major improvement. You decide for yourself. But I am finding this wasted energy over something that is a easy fix and at the end of the day is meaningless to most people. But that is me. Folks need to understand the concept of MF is . Forget 35mm completely out of your head it does NOT apply. This is large format thinking and shooting techniques
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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    For the record this is the P25 plus and not entirely FULL frame. The P65 plus obviously show a little more area of softness on the 28mm just as the P30 plus will show almost none because of the crop factor. This is at F11 no less and focusing is on the back side of the pool. Now not doing the math but a P65 with a 28mm is equivalent to about a 19mm, P25 and 45 it is a 21mm and the P30 it is a 23.5 mm lens. Now matter which back to eliminate it completely think around a 22.5 mm lens to 24mm somewhere in that range without doing corner sharpness should eliminate it. Given this wide of a lens i do not see it as a issue at all some may but even in 35mm there is maybe ONE or TWO lenses in the 21mm focal length that can give sharp corners at F11 but let's also realize a 35mm camera is two stops to the plus side so reality is F22 DOF. This is the issue with MF and Large format we are on different terms when it comes to F stops than anything in 35mm. This gets put on the side table all the time and that is something we keep forgetting about. I should have shot this at F22 to match a 21mm in 35mm at F11.
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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    Hopefully that explains a lot of this and I would imagine the same is closely true for the Hassy 28. The only real lens other than this is for a tech camera at the moment and that is a Rodenstock 28mm and it is said to be very good but I do not now how good the corners are but given the curvature of the lens it may actually run into the same issues. The Leica 24mm obviously not out yet we can only guess but I am not putting money on it given the retro focus design.I'm not putting my money on that system at all actually, to me it's a passing thought that I will address next year if the system is capable. But the marketing on it is something I am really tired of hearing how great it will be. Folks I need visual proof. Not running my company on marketing hype. I like Leica we all know that but shut up and show us the money is my new motto.

    And yes I need that second espresso. LOL
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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    Here are a quick couple of shots with the HC28 ... cropped tight to text area of a box.

    One far left bottom corner (shows WA distortion) with the box bleeding right off both left edge and bottom edge (can't get into the corner more than that!) ... the other is a center of frame shot. Both then enlarged.

  19. #119
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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    Thanks Guy for all this insight.

    Indeed MF is a different beast and we should know that. I am aware of that and I am maybe in the very lucky situation that I do not have any of these systems right now and can choose from the scratch. So for me there are 2 fixstarters (Hassi and Phase ) and then there is the S System - maybe.

    It finally will be also a price decision for me and of course availability and trust, as Leica as a company with their products has let me down very often - in several areas. And yes, maybe you are right and they do a lot of processing and correction already in the body of the S2 and not in external SW.

    It was the post processing I saw yesterday first time for MF and it just cam to my mind that I would not like to do all these corrections manually, but decide for a certain lens which corrections to apply automatically and whenever a photo taken with that lens is imported, the SW applies these corrections automatically. It does not make any sense to me, if I prefer SW edge sharpening plus CA, then to do an individual select by photo.

    But as I also mentioned, maybe this is a bit too hysteric and I should not pay too much attention.

    Finally I was (am) very pleased with the results and I also learned one thing for sure - for the moment I can survive with 39MP and this makes back prices much more interesting - be it Hasselblad or Phase

    Please continue commenting here, I am learning incredibly much from all of you!

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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    LL had something on this as well

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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    Just another comment, offered here as a FWIW...

    The perfect camera system, or so called "holy grail" of photography, does not exist.

    I know this to be true, because I've searched endlessly for it. (So has Guy.) But that said, the current crop of MF digital backs are probably the closest I've come, even considering all their warts.

    No more ,
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  22. #122
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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Thanks Guy for all this insight.

    Indeed MF is a different beast and we should know that. I am aware of that and I am maybe in the very lucky situation that I do not have any of these systems right now and can choose from the scratch. So for me there are 2 fixstarters (Hassi and Phase ) and then there is the S System - maybe.

    It finally will be also a price decision for me and of course availability and trust, as Leica as a company with their products has let me down very often - in several areas. And yes, maybe you are right and they do a lot of processing and correction already in the body of the S2 and not in external SW.

    It was the post processing I saw yesterday first time for MF and it just cam to my mind that I would not like to do all these corrections manually, but decide for a certain lens which corrections to apply automatically and whenever a photo taken with that lens is imported, the SW applies these corrections automatically. It does not make any sense to me, if I prefer SW edge sharpening plus CA, then to do an individual select by photo.

    But as I also mentioned, maybe this is a bit too hysteric and I should not pay too much attention.

    Finally I was (am) very pleased with the results and I also learned one thing for sure - for the moment I can survive with 39MP and this makes back prices much more interesting - be it Hasselblad or Phase

    Please continue commenting here, I am learning incredibly much from all of you!
    I do like what Hassy and Phase do and I will assume here on Phocus but I know C1 gives you the option to actually correct and not correct something, so you do see what is going on and i think that is important. Although Like Marc said in Phocus there is a auto button per say and I agree that I would like to see that feature in C1. A button if you will that says ( Doug pay attention) when you are in the lens corrections tab the software picks up on the lens in preview correct than give me the option of setting my defaults for that particular lens than hit a button that basically does it automatically to the defaults every time if I so desire for that lens and make that default changeable at anytime by me the user. Now do this for every lens in the kit. Than as a image comes in that default is automatically applied by the amount of corrections I like in each category like corner sharpness, vignetting and such. This is a two fold win win for the user. You get to decide what default you like than have the choice to make it the default or correct it manually if you like. So yes i would like to see some automation in here and I can only speak of C1 in this case because I simply do not know Phocus well enough to comment.

    Now I am not saying the S2 will not be better but what I am saying is forget the marketing stuff. MF is what it is and some facts no one can change and there is a acceptable level of expectations than a level that maybe just a stretch. I don't have much doubt the S2 will be good and we have talked about this at great length but we here the marketing but what we are not hearing is what is going on behind that shutter and we won't know that. Leica in my mind HAS to be doing something inside the box to claim you don't need software corrections and folks can put all the spin they want on it, but I am not a idiot either. You can design lenses to be almost perfect and in the longer focal lengths this is achievable because they are easier to design but when we get to the wider lenses than things change. I am not a optical designer but I know well enough that there has to be corrections made for aberrations and such. Be it inside or outside the box I am tired of hearing the we don't need corrections stuff. To me that is not reality just because of optical design and limitations. Will The S2 get there, I hope it will but again at what cost and is it truly worth it if Hassy and Mamiya can fix stuff in SW and keep the prices down. I really think there are two sides of this coin. Do it at very high price tags because of the optics involved at high costs or settle and fix it later. As Jack said there just is no holy grail and anyone selling you that idea is full of stuff i don't like to smell. LOL
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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    Now Peter as to what system to buy. Frankly there all good and be it you pick Hassy, Sinar, Leaf, Phase or Leica they all will produce great files. The thing to get your head around which on does it in the style you like to work. Am I crazy about the Phase body , no I am not and will be the first one to raise my hand and say so. But I also hated the Hy6 and i do like the Hassy feel and the the Contax. Than there are the backs and such. So I recommend try as many as you can get a feel for them and also how the software and workflow feel to you. Seriously nothing worse than buying a system and there is just one part of it you can't stand dealing with. Some things you have to accept but others will just bug you to no end. Find that comfort zone
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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I do like what Hassy and Phase do and I will assume here on Phocus but I know C1 gives you the option to actually correct and not correct something, so you do see what is going on and i think that is important.
    Guy, yes, you can turn the individual Hasselblad DAC corrections on or off at will.

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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    Thanks Keith glad to hear that. Phase take note i would like to see this feature. Please.

    Hopefully I commented correctly as best i could in regard to the Hassy stuff
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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    Folks,

    again - many thanks for your comments and support. I really like this in this forum, it is a very unique feature here and there are many other fora you never could have such an open discussion!

    I will have a test weekend in May with the Hassi System, which will definitely show me some more details of what I like or not. I will test a H3D2 wit 39MP back, 28, 100 and 150 lens - hoping for nice weather here in Austria over this very special weekend!!!

    On the price tag - I found interesting that you can get here in Europe at least

    1) H3D2 with 50MP back (no lens) for €17.990.-
    2) H3D2 with 39MP back and 80mm lens for €14.990.-
    3) Phase One with P45+ back (39MP and lens) for €19.990.-
    4) Phase One with refurbished P45+ and lens for €15.990.-

    Not sure why this is the case and Hassi is offering better prices, but obviously they want to gain market share So actually I could get the Hassi 50MP version for less than the Phase One 39MP version, even if I add the 2/100 lens to the Hassi. This is very tempting of course

    And I could live with the 50MP for a very long time I am sure .. well never say this I know! And yes I also know, I have already stated here, that I do not need more than 39MP right now!

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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    Peter that maybe the case but try adding it as a system with all the glass needed for each and the numbers change. Hassy tends to be more on the lenses because of the shutters in them but Mamiya has some expensive lenses also so be careful in adding it up as a system cost in total. That will give you a good idea what actually comes out of your pocket in the end. Either system is a good purchase just depends on what you are after and obvious one is focal plane versus leaf shutter as well. Some folks one way or the other determines that immediately. Either way they are great systems that actually share the same sensors up to the 39 mpx unit.

    Never say your satisfied. For some reason that just bites you in the can. ROTFLMAO

    Don't forget dealer support also in your country or city. If there is no presence at all around for support that can be a issue as well.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    Guy,

    both dealers for Hasselblad and Phase are more than ok, both are in Vienna (close to the area I live) and both showed me great expertise so far.

    I personally have a longer historical relationship with Hasselblad, as this was my first analog MF system. But I would not mind to go with Phase and their dealer, as I like their approach and they are also very nice guys.

    On the lens side there are clearly more lenses for the H3D in digital quality, but I assume the missing lenses will also come for the Phase/Mamiya. And the new camera they introduced supprts leaf shutter lenses, so actually then you have both options, at least with a limited lens arsenal.

    I have the feeling, while focal plane shutter gives you of course a wider range especially in shorter shutter times, the drawback is that this system produces more vibrations at certain shutter speeds than would be good for sharp pictures hand held. The Phase dealer mentioned that one should be careful around 1/60th second, above and below it would be ok. With leaf shutter you will obviously not get these problems. Anyway the few testshots I made worked well also with shutter speeds around 1/60th. But this becomes of course more an issue the higher the resolution.

    Not sure if Hasselblad will not also bring a H4D, with a focal plane shutter, actually I think they are somehow forced to. And they have this experience, as their 200-series had focal plane shutter even for 6x6.

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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    what we are not hearing is what is going on behind that shutter and we won't know that. Leica in my mind HAS to be doing something inside the box to claim you don't need software corrections and folks can put all the spin they want on it, but I am not a idiot either. You can design lenses to be almost perfect and in the longer focal lengths this is achievable because they are easier to design but when we get to the wider lenses than things change. I am not a optical designer but I know well enough that there has to be corrections made for aberrations and such.
    It is true that there is no holy grail, but there are different ways to pay for that. If you are shooting at f8 all the time, then there are many good lenses, and the Mamiyas are apparently very good here. Leica's specialty has always been their exceedingly strong designs, giving great performance from wide open. You had an M8, you know that the lenses are awesome. The 28 Cron, the 90AA, there are so many good lenses in that lineup, it is unmatched by any other system. Leica not only has top-notch optical design, they also have an ace up their sleeve: aspherical elements. They have the best technology in the world for this, and not by a small amount. Whereas some manufacturers manage to squeeze out a little extra performance by adding such an element, Leica changes the rules with theirs. I mean, how does a 21mm f1.4 strike you? Or a 50mm f/0.95? The same can and will presumably happen with the S2.

    I am not sure why you consider angled microlenses a trick, but yes, they do do that. But that is all before the sensor, lens design, microlenses. The firmware corrects vignetting, and on the M8, cyan drift. No distortion. The design takes care of that.

    The price to be paid in the case of the Leica is, as always, the price... Ahem. I guess the 24mm will cost an arm and three legs, as will the T/S.
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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    The Phase dealer mentioned that one should be careful around 1/60th second, above and below it would be ok.
    What I have heard from Tim and others for both the Phase/Mamiya and the Hasselblad is that 1/15s is the dangerous one.

    Peter, be careful what missing lenses and functionality you expect to come. Yes, the Hasselblad lineup is relatively complete, but the Mamiya is missing one or two D variations. Much has been promised in MF land, and often something has not arrived on time, but two years later, or not at all. Be sure that whatever system you buy isn't built on a foundation of future promises, but on what is available at the time you buy. Many have been stung by false promises made by over-zealous dealers and others. Map out what you want and need, and make sure that it is there. Test it to be sure it is what you hope, and only then buy. It is a lot of money, even for the wealthy.
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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    It is true that there is no holy grail, but there are different ways to pay for that. If you are shooting at f8 all the time, then there are many good lenses, and the Mamiyas are apparently very good here. Leica's specialty has always been their exceedingly strong designs, giving great performance from wide open. You had an M8, you know that the lenses are awesome. The 28 Cron, the 90AA, there are so many good lenses in that lineup, it is unmatched by any other system. Leica not only has top-notch optical design, they also have an ace up their sleeve: aspherical elements. They have the best technology in the world for this, and not by a small amount. Whereas some manufacturers manage to squeeze out a little extra performance by adding such an element, Leica changes the rules with theirs. I mean, how does a 21mm f1.4 strike you? Or a 50mm f/0.95? The same can and will presumably happen with the S2.

    I am not sure why you consider angled microlenses a trick, but yes, they do do that. But that is all before the sensor, lens design, microlenses. The firmware corrects vignetting, and on the M8, cyan drift. No distortion. The design takes care of that.

    The price to be paid in the case of the Leica is, as always, the price... Ahem. I guess the 24mm will cost an arm and three legs, as will the T/S.
    Won't argue that Carsten Leica makes great glass but the question is how much will that 24 and 30 t/s lens cost. Not sure i even want to know. LOL

    I do know one thing though a lot of Pro's may not even look it's way. Every photographer on the planet is in hell right now anyone saying there business is better than this time last year is walking in a pile of you know what. This is not going to change anytime soon and we are in survival mode and the outcome on who actually survives may not be that good. After 33 years of doing this , I have never seen anything like this ever. Not sure when that door will open back up for a lot of shooters. Gear is completely secondary at this point and holding on to wait we have is primary.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    Gear is completely secondary at this point and holding on to wait we have is primary.
    ...and you know that if the biggest gear wh*** on the planet says that then we're all chin deep in the cacky!

    Sorry Guy, couldn't resist!
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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    But it is true and that is the scary part. My trigger finger is itching so bad even the best anti-itch cream is not cutting it. May have to just cut the darn thing off. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    What I have heard from Tim and others for both the Phase/Mamiya and the Hasselblad is that 1/15s is the dangerous one.

    Peter, be careful what missing lenses and functionality you expect to come. Yes, the Hasselblad lineup is relatively complete, but the Mamiya is missing one or two D variations. Much has been promised in MF land, and often something has not arrived on time, but two years later, or not at all. Be sure that whatever system you buy isn't built on a foundation of future promises, but on what is available at the time you buy. Many have been stung by false promises made by over-zealous dealers and others. Map out what you want and need, and make sure that it is there. Test it to be sure it is what you hope, and only then buy. It is a lot of money, even for the wealthy.
    1/15th is the dangerious one? Why is that?

    The biggest danger is the mirror slap unless you shoot with mirror up. I don't know about Phase, but on the Hasselblads you can program in a slight mirror delay ... I posted results here on the forum from using that option with slower shutter speeds ... pretty amazing actually. Mirror up on a Leaf Shutter camera and when you shoot there's just a demure "snit".

    Also, is the intent to do something the same as promising it? Mamiya intended on making a 43 mm for the RZ camera ... and actually made one (I had one on a camera at a trade show) ... but it never was manufactured because they couldn't get it right.

    IMHO, the S2 is a "inbetweener" camera ... sort of like the 645 was in the days of MF film. I'd love one ... but not to replace my H3Ds (which for me it cannot do) ... more as a suppliment. But as Guy says, the last thing on the business agenda for many folks is a "supplimental" camera. If I need to step up from the Sony A900 24.8 meg capture, it usually requires a step way up.

    Frankly, any of this stuff is strictly for ourselves since not one client would be able to tell the difference from most any of these MF digital cameras and the results they deliver.

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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    I shot a lot of event work at 1/45th all the time so not sure about mirror slap
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    But it is true and that is the scary part. My trigger finger is itching so bad even the best anti-itch cream is not cutting it. May have to just cut the darn thing off. LOL
    LOL! Exactly! My commercial work has dried up, weddings are okay ... but now I'm dragging out simple tasks like making an album to fill time ... if I finish those I won't have anything "real" to do for a couple of weeks.

    I guess it's getting out there and hitting the bricks, and looking at new marketing angles. But I know there's nothing happening. Scarey.

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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    1/15th is the dangerious one? Why is that?
    Well, I haven't tested it myself so I can't claim to know, but I have heard it now several times. Yes, MLU would fix it on the Hasselblad. I suppose it has to do with resonance. Harmonic vibrations for a given camera size and weight. Have you seen the Tacoma Narrows Bridge collapse? Amazing. Something like that. Slower or faster are both okay, but at that speed, it is apparently really hard to get a sharp photo. You could try it (without the MLU of course) and see what you find, if you were curious enough.
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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    LOL I have been playing spammer to every Tom , Dick and Jane i can find. Need more e-mail addresses. LOL

    http://web.me.com/guymancuso/Guy_Man...otography.html
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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Well, I haven't tested it myself so I can't claim to know, but I have heard it now several times. Yes, MLU would fix it on the Hasselblad. I suppose it has to do with resonance. Harmonic vibrations for a given camera size and weight. Have you seen the Tacoma Narrows Bridge collapse? Amazing. Something like that. Slower or faster are both okay, but at that speed, it is apparently really hard to get a sharp photo. You could try it (without the MLU of course) and see what you find, if you were curious enough.

    Hmmm, I've been t-pod shooting ambient at 1/15th a lot, with and without mirror lock ... never noticed lack of sharpness from vibrations. I'll have to double check that. Sounds odd to me that both different kinds of cameras have the same issue.

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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    I have found that different bodies do have a "trouble spot" in terms of shutter speed. The image deterioration is not always present, which may depend on other damping effects in place, but I typically find it in the range of 1/13th to 1/30th second. On my AFD II it seems to be somewhere around 1/30th or a bit slower. I have not noticed it at 1/60th yet.

    I almost always shoot with mirror-up in these ranges unless shooting Canon hand-held, but I also have success with placing a hand on top of the prism area as a sort of dampening effort.

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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    Well, they are around the same size and weight, and even construction, roughly. The leaf shutter would be the big difference here, if used with MLU. In Tim's case, the problem was exacerbated by an under-spec'ed ballhead, so maybe you can simulate that too
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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    Using a stout tripod and placing a hand over the top almost always fixes it for me. A lightweight tripod is not a good choice for bodies with heavy mirrors or energetic shutter whacks.

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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    I could not recognize any impact of mirror and shutter between 1/30 to 1/60 myself while testing - and I did not even use a tripod. But the dealer said I should be careful in that area.

    Well, the Hasselblad mirror prerelease should help here significantly I would assume.

    I think it is all about how you hold a camera and I actually recognized for me that the larger and heavier a camera and lens are (up to a certain weight of course) the better I can hold even longer exposures. At last as long as I am not tired and pay attention, which can go away in the heat of shooting . Of course a tripod is always preferable.

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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    Peter,

    I shoot my Canons hand-held to lower shutter speeds with better results than I do my Mamiya. In hand-held shooting, of course, we don't have mirror locked up, and in the case of the Mamiya, there's a significant mirror effect.

    I have been involved with precision marksmanship for years (though not so much any more) and use many of the same techniques for photography, but I have found that I get sharper results at lower speeds with DSLRs than I do with the Mamiya. The Mamiya does not currently offer the mirror pre-release, and I personally see the effects of the mirror at slower shutter speeds. I'm not saying that good results can't be had hand-held, just that one should not expect any "gifts" from the added weight of the larger kit because in my opinion it is largely offset by a more vigorous mirror and shutter. YMMV.

    There are always variables in these types of discussions, and I'd not want to make blanket statements. I do like how the Mamiya body handles, with its flat bottom for relatively easy steadying, etc. Technique is critical when shooting at lower speeds. In fact with MFD I would say that most factors are "critical".


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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    What I have heard from Tim and others for both the Phase/Mamiya and the Hasselblad is that 1/15s is the dangerous one.

    Peter, be careful what missing lenses and functionality you expect to come. Yes, the Hasselblad lineup is relatively complete, but the Mamiya is missing one or two D variations. Much has been promised in MF land, and often something has not arrived on time, but two years later, or not at all. Be sure that whatever system you buy isn't built on a foundation of future promises, but on what is available at the time you buy. Many have been stung by false promises made by over-zealous dealers and others. Map out what you want and need, and make sure that it is there. Test it to be sure it is what you hope, and only then buy. It is a lot of money, even for the wealthy.
    I will do this anyway.

    Because of the photographic projects I want to do I can either buy in early autumn this year or if this does not come up nicely (I am doing this as kind of a side job, so my main job has preference) I have a next buying window spring 2010.

    As my main areas are landscape a 28 will be a fixstarter for me, but I am not requesting the full angle of field and could easily live with a corrected smaller field. Most important for me - I want to preset the correction and then have the SW done all for me, so I can forget about this - yes I know this is lazy, but I am kind of lazy

    Further I will take a 150 also for landscape and of course for portraits. The Phase lens is a bit faster (2.8) versus the Hassi (3.2) but I think both are equally good lenses.

    And then the standard lens - 80 - I will most probably get this one in a bundle offered with back and camera.

    Future would be a Macro, both offer a 4/120 version here, so not much difference. And maybe a 210 or similar - currently in digital only from Hasselblad, but not even sure I really need this and thinking that Phase will bring a version here as well.

    A zoom? I do not think so, but also here Hasselblad has more options currently than Phase

    And finally - the price!

    Folks - this morning I found the LATEST OFFER FROM HASSELBLAD - H3D2-31MP-80mm for €9.990.-

    http://www.hasselblad.com/promotions...-campaign.aspx

    Good news for us - I think the price battle has already begun, cannot wait to see also the price of the 39MP bundle drop!!!

    Not sure how long I will be able to resist
    Last edited by ptomsu; 16th April 2009 at 21:55.

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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Allyn View Post
    I have found that different bodies do have a "trouble spot" in terms of shutter speed. The image deterioration is not always present, which may depend on other damping effects in place, but I typically find it in the range of 1/13th to 1/30th second. On my AFD II it seems to be somewhere around 1/30th or a bit slower. I have not noticed it at 1/60th yet.

    I almost always shoot with mirror-up in these ranges unless shooting Canon hand-held, but I also have success with placing a hand on top of the prism area as a sort of dampening effort.
    The Pentax 67 was well known for the same problem, tripod or no; but that was a lump of a shutter.

    Strangely, I think that was at 1/60, too.

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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Mirror up on a Leaf Shutter camera and when you shoot there's just a demure "snit".
    Agreed. I always use mirror up. When I started using the H3D I had to check the LCD screen to confirm that an image had been captured. So quiet, so smooth.

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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    I could not recognize any impact of mirror and shutter between 1/30 to 1/60 myself while testing - and I did not even use a tripod. But the dealer said I should be careful in that area.

    Well, the Hasselblad mirror prerelease should help here significantly I would assume.
    Indeed it does. It is amazing what a nano second difference can make.

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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Indeed it does. It is amazing what a nano second difference can make.
    That's what I would have thought too - and it may well be the case on the Hassy systems which obviously have leaf shutters and the mirrors may be better damped too. The problem I had seemed to be some sort of sympathetic frequency thing on my Phamiya: I was using MUP but did not always leave much time after the mirror went up before I released the shutter. Mr Reichmann suggest six seconds and my later tests did show that to give best results on a not-perfect tripod rig. Having said that, the same rig was always more than enough for heavy DSLRs with longish lenses but my new rig is nuke-proof.

    I also found that my worst problems were between 1/50th and 1/80th with that particular setup.

    It is my impression that the shutter on the Phamiya has a hell of a whack. Does anyone else have good comparison experience with anything else?

    T

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    Re: MF Digital Precision

    "BTW the M8 is doing more than that in camera there are micro lenses that gather light in the corners and also as Robert pointed out several times on the forums is effectively sharpening the corners. That I am not sure about and actually argued about"

    Just to clear it up: Microlenses gather light that would normally "fell into the gaps" and therefore increase the effective sensitivity of any sensor with a fill-rate below 100%. This has nothing to do with with sharpening or RAW-manipulation of any kind, it doesn't even impact the interaction between pixels (=sharpen) it's just for sensitivity and is used in every digital camera (except for classical MFDBs). The M8 can compensate for cyan-corners and vignetting, nothing that cannot be switched off. What Leicas-marketing for the S2 is about, is the fact the others rely on digital correction to allow simpler optical designs.
    The S2 will have aberrations, vignetting.. but most likely of negligible amount (is that proper English? ;-) - that's what they claim and is possible with superior technology.
    Zeiss also has extensive experience with aspherics, but nobody wants to use their lenses except for Hollywood...

    They will be expensive, but the 28mm or zooms from Mamiya or Hasselblad aren't cheap either... And despite the future economy (which can only be better without making money with money...) buying a 15k$-system instead of a 20k$ won't save your business when you can't make any money with either...

    I think the 28mm-samples are fine (although I would hesitate to use the world "sharpness correction") but so are most samples under ideal conditions (stopped down...).

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