MF Digital Precision

[Jack]

Just another comment, offered here as a FWIW...

The perfect camera system, or so called "holy grail" of photography, does not exist.

I know this to be true, because I've searched endlessly for it. (So has Guy.) But that said, the current crop of MF digital backs are probably the closest I've come, even considering all their warts.

No more :banghead:,

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Thanks Guy for all this insight.

Indeed MF is a different beast and we should know that. I am aware of that and I am maybe in the very lucky situation that I do not have any of these systems right now and can choose from the scratch. So for me there are 2 fixstarters (Hassi and Phase ) and then there is the S System - maybe.

It finally will be also a price decision for me and of course availability and trust, as Leica as a company with their products has let me down very often - in several areas. And yes, maybe you are right and they do a lot of processing and correction already in the body of the S2 and not in external SW.

It was the post processing I saw yesterday first time for MF and it just cam to my mind that I would not like to do all these corrections manually, but decide for a certain lens which corrections to apply automatically and whenever a photo taken with that lens is imported, the SW applies these corrections automatically. It does not make any sense to me, if I prefer SW edge sharpening plus CA, then to do an individual select by photo.

But as I also mentioned, maybe this is a bit too hysteric and I should not pay too much attention.

Finally I was (am) very pleased with the results and I also learned one thing for sure - for the moment I can survive with 39MP and this makes back prices much more interesting - be it Hasselblad or Phase

Please continue commenting here, I am learning incredibly much from all of you!

I do like what Hassy and Phase do and I will assume here on Phocus but I know C1 gives you the option to actually correct and not correct something, so you do see what is going on and i think that is important. Although Like Marc said in Phocus there is a auto button per say and I agree that I would like to see that feature in C1. A button if you will that says ( Doug pay attention) when you are in the lens corrections tab the software picks up on the lens in preview correct than give me the option of setting my defaults for that particular lens than hit a button that basically does it automatically to the defaults every time if I so desire for that lens and make that default changeable at anytime by me the user. Now do this for every lens in the kit. Than as a image comes in that default is automatically applied by the amount of corrections I like in each category like corner sharpness, vignetting and such. This is a two fold win win for the user. You get to decide what default you like than have the choice to make it the default or correct it manually if you like. So yes i would like to see some automation in here and I can only speak of C1 in this case because I simply do not know Phocus well enough to comment.

Now I am not saying the S2 will not be better but what I am saying is forget the marketing stuff. MF is what it is and some facts no one can change and there is a acceptable level of expectations than a level that maybe just a stretch. I don't have much doubt the S2 will be good and we have talked about this at great length but we here the marketing but what we are not hearing is what is going on behind that shutter and we won't know that. Leica in my mind HAS to be doing something inside the box to claim you don't need software corrections and folks can put all the spin they want on it, but I am not a idiot either. You can design lenses to be almost perfect and in the longer focal lengths this is achievable because they are easier to design but when we get to the wider lenses than things change. I am not a optical designer but I know well enough that there has to be corrections made for aberrations and such. Be it inside or outside the box I am tired of hearing the we don't need corrections stuff. To me that is not reality just because of optical design and limitations. Will The S2 get there, I hope it will but again at what cost and is it truly worth it if Hassy and Mamiya can fix stuff in SW and keep the prices down. I really think there are two sides of this coin. Do it at very high price tags because of the optics involved at high costs or settle and fix it later. As Jack said there just is no holy grail and anyone selling you that idea is full of stuff i don't like to smell. LOL

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Now Peter as to what system to buy. Frankly there all good and be it you pick Hassy, Sinar, Leaf, Phase or Leica they all will produce great files. The thing to get your head around which on does it in the style you like to work. Am I crazy about the Phase body , no I am not and will be the first one to raise my hand and say so. But I also hated the Hy6 and i do like the Hassy feel and the the Contax. Than there are the backs and such. So I recommend try as many as you can get a feel for them and also how the software and workflow feel to you. Seriously nothing worse than buying a system and there is just one part of it you can't stand dealing with. Some things you have to accept but others will just bug you to no end. Find that comfort zone

 

[KeithL]

I do like what Hassy and Phase do and I will assume here on Phocus but I know C1 gives you the option to actually correct and not correct something, so you do see what is going on and i think that is important.

Guy, yes, you can turn the individual Hasselblad DAC corrections on or off at will.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Thanks Keith glad to hear that. Phase take note i would like to see this feature. Please.

Hopefully I commented correctly as best i could in regard to the Hassy stuff

 

[ptomsu]

Folks,

again - many thanks for your comments and support. I really like this in this forum, it is a very unique feature here and there are many other fora you never could have such an open discussion!

I will have a test weekend in May with the Hassi System, which will definitely show me some more details of what I like or not. I will test a H3D2 wit 39MP back, 28, 100 and 150 lens - hoping for nice weather here in Austria over this very special weekend!!!

On the price tag - I found interesting that you can get here in Europe at least

1) H3D2 with 50MP back (no lens) for €17.990.-
2) H3D2 with 39MP back and 80mm lens for €14.990.-
3) Phase One with P45+ back (39MP and lens) for €19.990.-
4) Phase One with refurbished P45+ and lens for €15.990.-

Not sure why this is the case and Hassi is offering better prices, but obviously they want to gain market share :thumbup: So actually I could get the Hassi 50MP version for less than the Phase One 39MP version, even if I add the 2/100 lens to the Hassi. This is very tempting of course

And I could live with the 50MP for a very long time I am sure .. well never say this I know! And yes I also know, I have already stated here, that I do not need more than 39MP right now!

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Peter that maybe the case but try adding it as a system with all the glass needed for each and the numbers change. Hassy tends to be more on the lenses because of the shutters in them but Mamiya has some expensive lenses also so be careful in adding it up as a system cost in total. That will give you a good idea what actually comes out of your pocket in the end. Either system is a good purchase just depends on what you are after and obvious one is focal plane versus leaf shutter as well. Some folks one way or the other determines that immediately. Either way they are great systems that actually share the same sensors up to the 39 mpx unit.

Never say your satisfied. For some reason that just bites you in the can. ROTFLMAO

Don't forget dealer support also in your country or city. If there is no presence at all around for support that can be a issue as well.

 

[ptomsu]

Guy,

both dealers for Hasselblad and Phase are more than ok, both are in Vienna (close to the area I live) and both showed me great expertise so far.

I personally have a longer historical relationship with Hasselblad, as this was my first analog MF system. But I would not mind to go with Phase and their dealer, as I like their approach and they are also very nice guys.

On the lens side there are clearly more lenses for the H3D in digital quality, but I assume the missing lenses will also come for the Phase/Mamiya. And the new camera they introduced supprts leaf shutter lenses, so actually then you have both options, at least with a limited lens arsenal.

I have the feeling, while focal plane shutter gives you of course a wider range especially in shorter shutter times, the drawback is that this system produces more vibrations at certain shutter speeds than would be good for sharp pictures hand held. The Phase dealer mentioned that one should be careful around 1/60th second, above and below it would be ok. With leaf shutter you will obviously not get these problems. Anyway the few testshots I made worked well also with shutter speeds around 1/60th. But this becomes of course more an issue the higher the resolution.

Not sure if Hasselblad will not also bring a H4D, with a focal plane shutter, actually I think they are somehow forced to. And they have this experience, as their 200-series had focal plane shutter even for 6x6.

 

[carstenw]

what we are not hearing is what is going on behind that shutter and we won't know that. Leica in my mind HAS to be doing something inside the box to claim you don't need software corrections and folks can put all the spin they want on it, but I am not a idiot either. You can design lenses to be almost perfect and in the longer focal lengths this is achievable because they are easier to design but when we get to the wider lenses than things change. I am not a optical designer but I know well enough that there has to be corrections made for aberrations and such.

It is true that there is no holy grail, but there are different ways to pay for that. If you are shooting at f8 all the time, then there are many good lenses, and the Mamiyas are apparently very good here. Leica's specialty has always been their exceedingly strong designs, giving great performance from wide open. You had an M8, you know that the lenses are awesome. The 28 Cron, the 90AA, there are so many good lenses in that lineup, it is unmatched by any other system. Leica not only has top-notch optical design, they also have an ace up their sleeve: aspherical elements. They have the best technology in the world for this, and not by a small amount. Whereas some manufacturers manage to squeeze out a little extra performance by adding such an element, Leica changes the rules with theirs. I mean, how does a 21mm f1.4 strike you? Or a 50mm f/0.95? The same can and will presumably happen with the S2.

I am not sure why you consider angled microlenses a trick, but yes, they do do that. But that is all before the sensor, lens design, microlenses. The firmware corrects vignetting, and on the M8, cyan drift. No distortion. The design takes care of that.

The price to be paid in the case of the Leica is, as always, the price... Ahem. I guess the 24mm will cost an arm and three legs, as will the T/S.

 

[carstenw]

The Phase dealer mentioned that one should be careful around 1/60th second, above and below it would be ok.

What I have heard from Tim and others for both the Phase/Mamiya and the Hasselblad is that 1/15s is the dangerous one.

Peter, be careful what missing lenses and functionality you expect to come. Yes, the Hasselblad lineup is relatively complete, but the Mamiya is missing one or two D variations. Much has been promised in MF land, and often something has not arrived on time, but two years later, or not at all. Be sure that whatever system you buy isn't built on a foundation of future promises, but on what is available at the time you buy. Many have been stung by false promises made by over-zealous dealers and others. Map out what you want and need, and make sure that it is there. Test it to be sure it is what you hope, and only then buy. It is a lot of money, even for the wealthy.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

It is true that there is no holy grail, but there are different ways to pay for that. If you are shooting at f8 all the time, then there are many good lenses, and the Mamiyas are apparently very good here. Leica's specialty has always been their exceedingly strong designs, giving great performance from wide open. You had an M8, you know that the lenses are awesome. The 28 Cron, the 90AA, there are so many good lenses in that lineup, it is unmatched by any other system. Leica not only has top-notch optical design, they also have an ace up their sleeve: aspherical elements. They have the best technology in the world for this, and not by a small amount. Whereas some manufacturers manage to squeeze out a little extra performance by adding such an element, Leica changes the rules with theirs. I mean, how does a 21mm f1.4 strike you? Or a 50mm f/0.95? The same can and will presumably happen with the S2.

I am not sure why you consider angled microlenses a trick, but yes, they do do that. But that is all before the sensor, lens design, microlenses. The firmware corrects vignetting, and on the M8, cyan drift. No distortion. The design takes care of that.

The price to be paid in the case of the Leica is, as always, the price... Ahem. I guess the 24mm will cost an arm and three legs, as will the T/S.

Won't argue that Carsten Leica makes great glass but the question is how much will that 24 and 30 t/s lens cost. Not sure i even want to know. LOL

I do know one thing though a lot of Pro's may not even look it's way. Every photographer on the planet is in hell right now anyone saying there business is better than this time last year is walking in a pile of you know what. This is not going to change anytime soon and we are in survival mode and the outcome on who actually survives may not be that good. After 33 years of doing this , I have never seen anything like this ever. Not sure when that door will open back up for a lot of shooters. Gear is completely secondary at this point and holding on to wait we have is primary.

 

[Ben Rubinstein]

Gear is completely secondary at this point and holding on to wait we have is primary.

...and you know that if the biggest gear wh*** on the planet says that then we're all chin deep in the cacky! :ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL:

Sorry Guy, couldn't resist!

 

[Guy Mancuso]

But it is true and that is the scary part. My trigger finger is itching so bad even the best anti-itch cream is not cutting it. May have to just cut the darn thing off. LOL

 

[fotografz]

What I have heard from Tim and others for both the Phase/Mamiya and the Hasselblad is that 1/15s is the dangerous one.

Peter, be careful what missing lenses and functionality you expect to come. Yes, the Hasselblad lineup is relatively complete, but the Mamiya is missing one or two D variations. Much has been promised in MF land, and often something has not arrived on time, but two years later, or not at all. Be sure that whatever system you buy isn't built on a foundation of future promises, but on what is available at the time you buy. Many have been stung by false promises made by over-zealous dealers and others. Map out what you want and need, and make sure that it is there. Test it to be sure it is what you hope, and only then buy. It is a lot of money, even for the wealthy.

1/15th is the dangerious one? Why is that?

The biggest danger is the mirror slap unless you shoot with mirror up. I don't know about Phase, but on the Hasselblads you can program in a slight mirror delay ... I posted results here on the forum from using that option with slower shutter speeds ... pretty amazing actually. Mirror up on a Leaf Shutter camera and when you shoot there's just a demure "snit".

Also, is the intent to do something the same as promising it? Mamiya intended on making a 43 mm for the RZ camera ... and actually made one (I had one on a camera at a trade show) ... but it never was manufactured because they couldn't get it right.

IMHO, the S2 is a "inbetweener" camera ... sort of like the 645 was in the days of MF film. I'd love one ... but not to replace my H3Ds (which for me it cannot do) ... more as a suppliment. But as Guy says, the last thing on the business agenda for many folks is a "supplimental" camera. If I need to step up from the Sony A900 24.8 meg capture, it usually requires a step way up.

Frankly, any of this stuff is strictly for ourselves since not one client would be able to tell the difference from most any of these MF digital cameras and the results they deliver.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

I shot a lot of event work at 1/45th all the time so not sure about mirror slap

 

[fotografz]

But it is true and that is the scary part. My trigger finger is itching so bad even the best anti-itch cream is not cutting it. May have to just cut the darn thing off. LOL

LOL! Exactly! My commercial work has dried up, weddings are okay ... but now I'm dragging out simple tasks like making an album to fill time ... if I finish those I won't have anything "real" to do for a couple of weeks.

I guess it's getting out there and hitting the bricks, and looking at new marketing angles. But I know there's nothing happening. Scarey.

 

[carstenw]

1/15th is the dangerious one? Why is that?

Well, I haven't tested it myself so I can't claim to know, but I have heard it now several times. Yes, MLU would fix it on the Hasselblad. I suppose it has to do with resonance. Harmonic vibrations for a given camera size and weight. Have you seen the Tacoma Narrows Bridge collapse? Amazing. Something like that. Slower or faster are both okay, but at that speed, it is apparently really hard to get a sharp photo. You could try it (without the MLU of course) and see what you find, if you were curious enough.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

LOL I have been playing spammer to every Tom , Dick and Jane i can find. Need more e-mail addresses. LOL

http://web.me.com/guymancuso/Guy_Mancuso_Photography_Recent_Work/Guy_Mancuso_Photography.html

 

[fotografz]

Well, I haven't tested it myself so I can't claim to know, but I have heard it now several times. Yes, MLU would fix it on the Hasselblad. I suppose it has to do with resonance. Harmonic vibrations for a given camera size and weight. Have you seen the Tacoma Narrows Bridge collapse? Amazing. Something like that. Slower or faster are both okay, but at that speed, it is apparently really hard to get a sharp photo. You could try it (without the MLU of course) and see what you find, if you were curious enough.

Hmmm, I've been t-pod shooting ambient at 1/15th a lot, with and without mirror lock ... never noticed lack of sharpness from vibrations. I'll have to double check that. Sounds odd to me that both different kinds of cameras have the same issue.

 

[Dale Allyn]

I have found that different bodies do have a "trouble spot" in terms of shutter speed. The image deterioration is not always present, which may depend on other damping effects in place, but I typically find it in the range of 1/13th to 1/30th second. On my AFD II it seems to be somewhere around 1/30th or a bit slower. I have not noticed it at 1/60th yet.

I almost always shoot with mirror-up in these ranges unless shooting Canon hand-held, but I also have success with placing a hand on top of the prism area as a sort of dampening effort.