MF Digital Precision

[carstenw]

Well, they are around the same size and weight, and even construction, roughly. The leaf shutter would be the big difference here, if used with MLU. In Tim's case, the problem was exacerbated by an under-spec'ed ballhead, so maybe you can simulate that too

 

[Dale Allyn]

Using a stout tripod and placing a hand over the top almost always fixes it for me. A lightweight tripod is not a good choice for bodies with heavy mirrors or energetic shutter whacks.

 

[ptomsu]

I could not recognize any impact of mirror and shutter between 1/30 to 1/60 myself while testing - and I did not even use a tripod. But the dealer said I should be careful in that area.

Well, the Hasselblad mirror prerelease should help here significantly I would assume.

I think it is all about how you hold a camera and I actually recognized for me that the larger and heavier a camera and lens are (up to a certain weight of course) the better I can hold even longer exposures. At last as long as I am not tired and pay attention, which can go away in the heat of shooting . Of course a tripod is always preferable.

 

[Dale Allyn]

Peter,

I shoot my Canons hand-held to lower shutter speeds with better results than I do my Mamiya. In hand-held shooting, of course, we don't have mirror locked up, and in the case of the Mamiya, there's a significant mirror effect.

I have been involved with precision marksmanship for years (though not so much any more) and use many of the same techniques for photography, but I have found that I get sharper results at lower speeds with DSLRs than I do with the Mamiya. The Mamiya does not currently offer the mirror pre-release, and I personally see the effects of the mirror at slower shutter speeds. I'm not saying that good results can't be had hand-held, just that one should not expect any "gifts" from the added weight of the larger kit because in my opinion it is largely offset by a more vigorous mirror and shutter. YMMV.

There are always variables in these types of discussions, and I'd not want to make blanket statements. I do like how the Mamiya body handles, with its flat bottom for relatively easy steadying, etc. Technique is critical when shooting at lower speeds. In fact with MFD I would say that most factors are "critical".

 

[ptomsu]

What I have heard from Tim and others for both the Phase/Mamiya and the Hasselblad is that 1/15s is the dangerous one.

Peter, be careful what missing lenses and functionality you expect to come. Yes, the Hasselblad lineup is relatively complete, but the Mamiya is missing one or two D variations. Much has been promised in MF land, and often something has not arrived on time, but two years later, or not at all. Be sure that whatever system you buy isn't built on a foundation of future promises, but on what is available at the time you buy. Many have been stung by false promises made by over-zealous dealers and others. Map out what you want and need, and make sure that it is there. Test it to be sure it is what you hope, and only then buy. It is a lot of money, even for the wealthy.

I will do this anyway.

Because of the photographic projects I want to do I can either buy in early autumn this year or if this does not come up nicely (I am doing this as kind of a side job, so my main job has preference) I have a next buying window spring 2010.

As my main areas are landscape a 28 will be a fixstarter for me, but I am not requesting the full angle of field and could easily live with a corrected smaller field. Most important for me - I want to preset the correction and then have the SW done all for me, so I can forget about this - yes I know this is lazy, but I am kind of lazy

Further I will take a 150 also for landscape and of course for portraits. The Phase lens is a bit faster (2.8) versus the Hassi (3.2) but I think both are equally good lenses.

And then the standard lens - 80 - I will most probably get this one in a bundle offered with back and camera.

Future would be a Macro, both offer a 4/120 version here, so not much difference. And maybe a 210 or similar - currently in digital only from Hasselblad, but not even sure I really need this and thinking that Phase will bring a version here as well.

A zoom? I do not think so, but also here Hasselblad has more options currently than Phase

And finally - the price!

Folks - this morning I found the LATEST OFFER FROM HASSELBLAD - H3D2-31MP-80mm for €9.990.-

http://www.hasselblad.com/promotions/h3dii-31-campaign.aspx

Good news for us - I think the price battle has already begun, cannot wait to see also the price of the 39MP bundle drop!!!

Not sure how long I will be able to resist

 

[shakeshuck]

I have found that different bodies do have a "trouble spot" in terms of shutter speed. The image deterioration is not always present, which may depend on other damping effects in place, but I typically find it in the range of 1/13th to 1/30th second. On my AFD II it seems to be somewhere around 1/30th or a bit slower. I have not noticed it at 1/60th yet.

I almost always shoot with mirror-up in these ranges unless shooting Canon hand-held, but I also have success with placing a hand on top of the prism area as a sort of dampening effort.

The Pentax 67 was well known for the same problem, tripod or no; but that was a lump of a shutter.

Strangely, I think that was at 1/60, too.

 

[KeithL]

Mirror up on a Leaf Shutter camera and when you shoot there's just a demure "snit".

Agreed. I always use mirror up. When I started using the H3D I had to check the LCD screen to confirm that an image had been captured. So quiet, so smooth.

 

[fotografz]

I could not recognize any impact of mirror and shutter between 1/30 to 1/60 myself while testing - and I did not even use a tripod. But the dealer said I should be careful in that area.

Well, the Hasselblad mirror prerelease should help here significantly I would assume.

Indeed it does. It is amazing what a nano second difference can make.

 

[tashley]

Indeed it does. It is amazing what a nano second difference can make.

That's what I would have thought too - and it may well be the case on the Hassy systems which obviously have leaf shutters and the mirrors may be better damped too. The problem I had seemed to be some sort of sympathetic frequency thing on my Phamiya: I was using MUP but did not always leave much time after the mirror went up before I released the shutter. Mr Reichmann suggest six seconds and my later tests did show that to give best results on a not-perfect tripod rig. Having said that, the same rig was always more than enough for heavy DSLRs with longish lenses but my new rig is nuke-proof.

I also found that my worst problems were between 1/50th and 1/80th with that particular setup.

It is my impression that the shutter on the Phamiya has a hell of a whack. Does anyone else have good comparison experience with anything else?

T

 

[georgl]

"BTW the M8 is doing more than that in camera there are micro lenses that gather light in the corners and also as Robert pointed out several times on the forums is effectively sharpening the corners. That I am not sure about and actually argued about"

Just to clear it up: Microlenses gather light that would normally "fell into the gaps" and therefore increase the effective sensitivity of any sensor with a fill-rate below 100%. This has nothing to do with with sharpening or RAW-manipulation of any kind, it doesn't even impact the interaction between pixels (=sharpen) it's just for sensitivity and is used in every digital camera (except for classical MFDBs). The M8 can compensate for cyan-corners and vignetting, nothing that cannot be switched off. What Leicas-marketing for the S2 is about, is the fact the others rely on digital correction to allow simpler optical designs.
The S2 will have aberrations, vignetting.. but most likely of negligible amount (is that proper English? ;-) - that's what they claim and is possible with superior technology.
Zeiss also has extensive experience with aspherics, but nobody wants to use their lenses except for Hollywood...

They will be expensive, but the 28mm or zooms from Mamiya or Hasselblad aren't cheap either... And despite the future economy (which can only be better without making money with money...) buying a 15k$-system instead of a 20k$ won't save your business when you can't make any money with either...

I think the 28mm-samples are fine (although I would hesitate to use the world "sharpness correction") but so are most samples under ideal conditions (stopped down...).

 

[Jack]

It is my impression that the shutter on the Phamiya has a hell of a whack. Does anyone else have good comparison experience with anything else?

Not wanting to start a war, but I can tell you my Contax 645 was far worse for whack and so was/is the Mamiya RZ.

Re Hassy, perhaps Dave or Marc can clarify this, but I believe the regular H1 and H2 have film curtains that need to move out of the way prior to exposure and that motion coupled with the mirror flopping up have a good deal of inertia on those bodies. However, I think the D version bodies eliminated this curtain (and why they cannot be used with film?) which also shortened release-lag and eliminated a fair amount of motion.

 

[ptomsu]

However, I think the D version bodies eliminated this curtain (and why they cannot be used with film?) which also shortened release-lag and eliminated a fair amount of motion.

Jack,

Do you think / know, that the new Mamiya/Phase camera, which will be available this summer and can only take digital backs, will also have no curtan and thus be better WRT motion?

 

[Jack]

Jack,

Do you think / know, that the new Mamiya/Phase camera, which will be available this summer and can only take digital backs, will also have no curtan and thus be better WRT motion?

I doubt it. A camera with a focal plane shutter does not need the film dark curtain as the shutter itself solves that issue. But, the new shutter may be lighter in weight and/or simpler and thus have less inertia as a result.

 

[georgl]

Several years ago I wanted to try out medium format and rented a RB67 + 50mm lens. I made night-architecture- and museum-shots (1/8s-8s), all with my very stable 4kg Manfrotto. I couldn't find a mirror pre-release and so I shot without it about 5-10 rolls of Velvia/T-Max.

When I got the slides I was shocked: They were ALL unsharp! 2 days of shooting and about 300DM wasted!
Mamiya RB67 was dead to me (despite it's issues with seize and build quality) and this was the very last time I thought about not using mirror-pre-release on ANY SLR!

 

[fotografz]

Several years ago I wanted to try out medium format and rented a RB67 + 50mm lens. I made night-architecture- and museum-shots (1/8s-8s), all with my very stable 4kg Manfrotto. I couldn't find a mirror pre-release and so I shot without it about 5-10 rolls of Velvia/T-Max.

When I got the slides I was shocked: They were ALL unsharp! 2 days of shooting and about 300DM wasted!
Mamiya RB67 was dead to me (despite it's issues with seize and build quality) and this was the very last time I thought about not using mirror-pre-release on ANY SLR!

You need the dual cable release for the Mamiya 6X7s to engage the mirror release ... that mirror is huge and quite damaging to any precision type work. It is very precise with the mirror released and waiting a bit before shooting. :thumbup:

It is amazing to see the effects of movement when you are sure there is none. It's really annoying to learn this stuff on the job. :angry:

I've mentioned this before, but I once did what's called "pin registered" animation, where a sequence of images are shot using a locked down camera so the background remains static, while the subject moves in increments. When we layered the sequence and ran through the action, the background was jumping all over the place! :wtf: We had to use a much bigger tripod and sandbag it like crazy, put the mirror up, use longer cable release, and make everyone stop dead in their tracks during the sequence of shots ... even grips working in the next room ... even a cement floor moves when you walk.

 

[Jack]

FWIW, you only need a normal single cable release to do the mirror-up on an RB/RZ -- just be sure to stick that one on the lens. Once you've done that and screwed it down, the normal release button will send the mirror home waiting for you to trip the shutter via the release on the lens.

But yes, that camera is horrible at 1/4, 1/8th and 1/15th without it, and I've even avoid 1/30th and 1/2...

 

[tashley]

Not wanting to start a war, but I can tell you my Contax 645 was far worse for whack and so was/is the Mamiya RZ.

Re Hassy, perhaps Dave or Marc can clarify this, but I believe the regular H1 and H2 have film curtains that need to move out of the way prior to exposure and that motion coupled with the mirror flopping up have a good deal of inertia on those bodies. However, I think the D version bodies eliminated this curtain (and why they cannot be used with film?) which also shortened release-lag and eliminated a fair amount of motion.

Thanks Jack. I can believe it. I haven't shot a MF body other then the Phamiya for quite a while now so I have no other points of reference - other than the purely subjective feeling of the HD I tried in the shop, which seemed very clean but then you'd expect that!

Best

T

 

[carstenw]

Hmm, my Contax 645 feels very well damped, and when I try various combinations of mirror lockup and Bulb, it seems that about 2/3 of the whack is bringing the mirror back in place/recocking the shutter. At what shutter speed was the Contax worst?

Now my Hasselblad 500C and 2000FC/M give mighty thunks. By comparion, the Contax doesn't feel that much worse than my M8.

 

[ptomsu]

Thinking back to my analog days - I actually had NEVER problems with shutter vibrations on my Contax 645 system!

If the Mamiya's are better then Phase cameras are better and then I also should have no issues.

Think all really depends on how you operate and hold a camera maybe I have the right trick - do not knw

I get more and more attracted by the Phase system - Phase camera (new one coming this summer) plus 45+ back and 28 / 80 / 150

And kind of a arguably reasonable price for me

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Get a P25 Plus to start. Great price on one. LOL

Be surprised how good 22mpx sensors are. You should reread this thread
http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4333