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Schneider 35mm APO-Digitar XL with 60mpx CCD

Paul2660

Well-known member
Hi Paul, in practice do the HR-S lenses hard-vignette at exactly 70mm? Or rather at exactly 80mm?

More to the point, do you get dark corners if you use them on 6x6 film or can you just barely use them? (I know you're supposed to use screw-on filters on the rear ends to adjust for the lack of cover glass on film.)
They vignette as soon as you hit the edge of the IC. So at 5mm of shift you will get a shadow starting to show. The 28 also shows a white band long before the 5mm range is reached. It’s very evident in a blue sky or solid dark area of the image. I used to know the term for this effect but have forgotten it.

I can’t answer what effect you would see on a 6x6 film.

It’s very evident on the IQ160 54x44 sized sensor.

HR-S lenses were designed for the smaller sized smaller pixel pitch of digital sensors.

With the 28mm HR I quickly gave up shifting pretty pointless due to the IC.

Paul C
 

Pemihan

Well-known member
I thought the IC on the 35XL was 90mm.
According to a document I have from Schneider the IC at full aperture is 70mm whereas at f11 it is 90mm. Must be the usable IC they are referring to.
Here's a link to the document: https://www.dropbox.com/s/4xe9bgshijbcid1/digitare_e.pdf?dl=0

I am really debating whether I should sell mine or not. On one hand I mainly use my 40HR but on the other hand the 35XL is such a great small lightweight lens and when I eventually (maybe) get a BSI sensor it will shine again. For now it is great on my Achromatic :grin:
 
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Paul2660

Well-known member
BSI gives the 35XL new life for sure. Many times you can shoot without the CF which never was possible before for me.

I agree it’s so tiny and light it’s a keeper.

Paul C
 

Geoff

Well-known member
Paul's point about distortion is well taken. The Schneider lens lineup (from a few view camera lenses and the Rollei lenses from 1990s) have classic barrel distortion, a simple curve - some in the center, less in the edges, easy to correct in C1.

Other lenses, (such as the Zeiss Rollei lenses and some others view camera lenses) have a moustache shaped configuration to the curve, a bear to correct. That said, some of the Rodies have little distortion at all.

Something to keep an eye on, especially if stitching.
 

tjv

Active member
Thanks all for the informative replies. I'll only use the lens at f11-16, so no problems with regards to smaller IC at wider apertures. DOF will I assume also help with corner sharpness due to field curvature.

You must have the CF to shift it at all, due to the amount of light fall off. You can also get 10mm of rise and fall.
I don't have a CF to use unfortunately, so going by your advise it'll be interesting to see how much exactly it does vignette off centre. I'm looking forward to giving it a go regardless.

If anyone has on hand some 35mm XL LCC shots with and without CF at the same camera settings on the 60mpx sensor, I'd be keen to see them to visually assess the difference.
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
According to a document I have from Schneider the IC at full aperture is 70mm whereas at f11 it is 90mm. Must be the usable IC they are referring to.
It is not, at least not by any definition that is reasonable to me.

That lens is not remotely sharp at the edge of a 90mm image circle at f/11, nor at the edge of a 70mm image circle wide open. At least, not for high res backs. The 60mp Credo 60 is a bit more forgiving than say an IQ3 100mp or IQ4 150mp in terms of corner sharpness, but even at 60mp I would not feel comfortable telling a customer it is useable at 90mm of image circle. Our rating is for 70mm image circle; it's a bit conservative, much like Rodenstock's stated image circles.
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
Hi Paul, in practice do the HR-S lenses hard-vignette at exactly 70mm? Or rather at exactly 80mm?
The stated image circle of Rodenstock lenses is slightly conservative. Depending on the lens the hard vignette is usually several mm beyond the stated image circle and the image is acceptably sharp for a couple mm larger than stated (i.e. sharpness ends somewhere between the stated image circle and the hard vignette).

To reiterate a point I've made several times in this thread the stated image circle of Schneider digitar lenses is grossly optimistic (at least when referencing a high-res modern digital back).
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
Bumping thread...

Wondering also how much rise / fall one can realistically use with the 35mm XL and a 60mpx CCD chip without CF before the lens cast and vignette is edging on too much to remove via LCC. I.e. can I get 5-8mm and do ok, or without CF is it far less?
TJV... I linked earlier to a test that included (free to download) raw files that show you exactly what the 60mp sensor looks like at various amounts of shift.

Have you looked at those files?
 
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danlindberg

Well-known member


Shot with Schneider 35 XL with centrefilter + Alpa SWA + Leaf Credo 60

This was taken to its extreme with 14 mm of rise @f11! The image is not cropped, the whole capture used.
I have printed it 140 x 100 cm with my iPF8400 and is impressive at 2-2,5 metres viewing distance.

100% crop at the very top and in the centre below.



Yes, the HR32 is the better lens overall of the two, but the 35XL is useful and I have numerous large prints that shines.
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
Shot with Schneider 35 XL with centrefilter + Alpa SWA + Leaf Credo 60

This was taken to its extreme with 14 mm of rise @f11! The image is not cropped, the whole capture used.
Weird. That looks better than the results from DT's 35XL testing (including aperture sweeps on three copies of the lens at various points, including one sourced from Alpa and two sourced from Cambo) based on which I'm making my comments.

The only thing I can think of is that most of our testing is done in mid-large rooms than subjects at infinity. Maybe the focus plane bows back (toward infinity) at the edges of the image circle? That would be unexpected (normally if the focus curves on a wide angle it bowls closer, not further) but is the only explanation I can think of.

EDIT: Just noticed your crops are from the top center, not the far corner as I assumed. The main weakness of this lens (and the main reason I dispute the validity of its stated image circle) is at the corner, with shift. Can you please post the corner of that file?

P.S. Lovely image; beautiful composition and tonal choices. None of the above should be construed as a negative criticism against the image itself.
 

danlindberg

Well-known member
Doug,
I had it for quite a while and used it without any hesitation. But at one point I wanted to convert my Schneider 72L to a Helvetar 75 and thought at the same time that I could send the 35XL for some TLC and calibration. (many years ago)
When I got it back from Schneider it was a huge improvement! Night and day.

Yesteryear when there was more talk about this particular lens I also recommended to send it in in several threads because of the difference in my case.

This image example was a one-off with that much rise. Normally I did stay at 10 mm and as you can see, this was no problem whats-so-ever.

Wish I never sold it....
 

danlindberg

Well-known member
I'll share another 35XL with movements + Credo 60.

This one is much less extreme at 8 mm rise. As you can see, I cannot show the extreme corner, but thought it is still interesting to see how it holds up at the top.



And the 100% crop:

 

tjv

Active member
Man, you guys weren’t exaggerating. This lens is TINY!

Looking forward to trying it, hopefully tomorrow. I have no CF so interested how far I can push the movements and what falloff is like. I’m guessing 6+mm it’ll be like my RS 55mm APO-SD when shifted 17mm horizontally without the CF. The RS CF is 2.5 stops but the falloff is very, very harsh after about 14mm and not really needed for moderate movements. Will report back...
 

Paul2660

Well-known member
Keep your eyes open for a CF. Your LCC will be doing a lot of work even on center shots without one. As much as 2 stops between center and edge.

Paul C
 

Paul2660

Well-known member
After reading through all of these posts, I realized I mis-read Doug's post. I totally agree with him on the fact that the "useable" IC is around 70mm and that is at around F11. With the CF on, the makes the lens very limited due to shutter speeds available.

I regularly shifted my to 8mm of R and L shift, but even on my IQ160 and 260, the edges suffered. C1 in later versions 10 and up, does a great job on regaining some of the details. but you still get a bit of smearing at 8mm. For me and landscape panos 5 to 8mm of shift is not enough to really make a pano, so I quickly changed over to just panning with the 35XL, and in my memory, I did confuse that with shifting. At the time I also had the 43XL (still wish I had it) and it easily made 15mm of shift on the CCD backs.

The huge difference the 35XL has now with BSI, backs is basically new life in that on center at F11 it's a very useable lens, if you have a lens that is centered well. You "can" shoot without the CF on center, if you are not shooting a purely solid subject like the blue sky, as you will get slight color cast and vignetting. With the CF on, you have a excellent image, LCC still needed but only for light fall off IMO. But shifting it at all is pretty much not an option.

I always carry it since it's a shirt pocket lens, even in R mount.

Paul C
 

tjv

Active member
Thanks Paul, all great information. I will soon find out for myself and will post some LCCs here for people to see, even if only for future reference.

I'm very grateful to have the loan of the lens – it was sent from halfway around the world! – so will try and make the most of it, even if that means working within some quite strong limitations. I've been lacking a true wide lens in my bag since buying my Credo 60 and it has been driving me crazy. If I owned a 40mm it'd be used for 90% of my shots, but instead I've been making do with 1:2 panoramic stitches using my 55mm Rodenstock. While that has made for some great images and helped my work go in new directions as a consequence, I do really miss a wide angle for single shots. lately I've been shooting mainly 8x10" film with a 210mm lens and have been loving it, but it is like setting fire to the bank account each time I go out into the field. I absolutely love the format and medium, but sometimes digital is just better and the Credo is still an amazing back especially when used on the Techno.

Anyway, back to the 35mm XL, I have high hopes and wish I could buy it and a CF. It'd be a heck of a lot cheaper than a new RS 40mm, if not as ideal a solution. Funds now are very tight, but you never know what is around the corner!
 
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