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Schneider 35mm APO-Digitar XL with 60mpx CCD

tjv

Active member
Hi all,

A very generous forum member has offered to loan me their 35mm APO-Digitar XL to try with my Credo 60. I've been sorely missing a wide angle lens for my technical camera setup (more view camera, being a Linhof Techno,) and I'd always planned to buy a Rodenstock 40mm HR W – my favourite FOV on 4x5" film – but now that they aren't sold new with Copal shutter my buying options are suddenly very limited. Hence I got to thinking about the SK 35mm as an alternative option on the second hand market. Long story short, I got to talking about the lens with someone who has one and uses it on their Techno and the offer was made for me to try it myself to see if it suits my needs. Very appreciative!

My question is to do with how it performs with the 60mpx CCD sensor and how much of a necessity the CF is if shifting up to 8mm (I'm not sure if the one I'm borrowing has one or not.) I've read in historic threads that 8mm of shift is reaching the limit on this lens if sharp corners and colour fidelity are important, is this still true with new versions of C1? How much usable shift does it have in comparison to the RS 40mm and is the performance difference (if any) much to write home about?

I guess my other question is what are people like me 'stuck' with CCD backs to do now that new lenses can't be had with Copal shutters? I see quite a few of these lenses for sale used in Alpa or Cambo mount, but very rarely (if ever) without a helicoid, mounted on a plain lens board. I can't afford to buy anything right now, but any tips for places to keep an eye out?

Thanks,

T
 

Paul2660

Well-known member
On any CCD back 60mp included I believe you will need the CF center shots and even more for shifts. If the lens is centered you should be able to get 10mm of shift. Color cast will be extreme but C1 does a very good job with the LCC.

The only back I have been able to use the 35mm XL without a CF is the IQ4. But with a pure blue sky it’s still needed at least I find it makes a big difference.

Paul C
 

GrahamWelland

Subscriber & Workshop Member
It’s been a long time since I sold my 35XL but I recall that I had to shoot it on my IQ260 with the center filter and even then the LCCs would look like a nasty bruise at times if I used movements.
 

dchew

Well-known member
I think it should work well. As Paul and Graham said the CF and LCC are needed.

Capture One has improved the LCC process since we were all using that back; it is probably better than we experienced.

You can definitely shift the 40 more. I had the 40hr for several years, then bought the 35xl. Note the 40 is really 42mm and the 35 is really 36mm. I eventually sold the 40 because of size and focal length preference. But the 40hr is a bit sharper off center and you don’t need a CF.

Dave
 

tjv

Active member
Thanks guys,

You've confirmed my suspicions...

To throw the cat amongst the pidgins... What's the Schneider 43mm APO Digitar XL like?

Man oh man, I wish I had of bought the RS 40mm when I had the chance... At the time it was either put on a big show or buy the lens. I chose the former and have no regrets, but it still hurts knowing that Copal is dead and new is off the table.
 

Paul2660

Well-known member
The 43XL also greatly benefits from the CF, amazing lens, but slow due to the CF. Easily shift 15mm on the IQ160 class sensor, not as much on the IQ180.

Both the 35XL and 43XL are symetrical in optical design, and not retrofocus, thus you don't see as much elongation/flattening of subject matter towards the edges of the image. Both lenses are excellent for pano creation with just panning of the lens, no shifting of the back.

As good as the 35XL is on the IQ4, I wish I still had my 43XL, but I sold it for the 40HR, and I have never been as happy with that lens due to the huge amount of retrofocus distortion and the amount of CA my lens has towards the edges. But it can be shot without a CF.

It's too bad that Schneider moved away from the tech lenses, they had some real excellent optics, at a somewhat reasonable cost. When I look at the cost of the latest Rodenstock, 138mm at around 12K, I can assuredly state, that one will not ever be in my bag.

Paul C
 

tjv

Active member
Seems I need to put the 43mm on my ‘watch list’ then... how’s thats lens with the 100mpx cmos crop chip, as in the Fuji? Or does that body not accomodate it with such cameras as the Actus?
 

danlindberg

Well-known member
I shot with the 35XL and a Credo 60 for many years. Yes, centrefilter is a must! 10mm shift cleans up great with LCC. The main positives as I recall are, small/light, close to zero distortion, flare resistant, sharp to edge (after calibration at factory).
What I didn't like was centrefilter that 'stole' 1,5 stops of light at the same time as it is not recomendable to shoot wide open, f8-f11 is the working range.
 

tjv

Active member
Thanks, Dan.

I use a CF on my RS 55mm APO-SD which is 2.5 stops, so 1.5 stops seems good to me! To be fair, the 55mm only really needs it with massive shifts for stitching (I do a lot of 1:2 panos,) as the fall off is relatively sudden quite far out into the IC.

I’m guessing that the symmetrical, non-retro focus design of the SK 35mm lens means falloff is a lot more present early on, and is amplified by the micro lenses present on the sensor? Either way, I’m looking forward to trying one out, CF or otherwise.

I’d never considered the SK 43mm lens, but it does seem it might be a valid option. Would still prefer the RS 40mm, but beggars can’t be choosers...
 

Alkibiades

Well-known member
35 xl is a great lens for 60 MP backs. Yes, you need CF, and Capture one did great job with LCC. 10 mm shift-no problem.
40 mm is easier to use, better in the corners, what make the movements easier. I replaces my 35 xl for 32 HR after I get 80 MP back. I loved the no distortion design of schneider lenses and still have 2 of 43 xl that I find sharper than my 40 mm HR ( have also two of them on differnet systems). with the new 150 MP backs the 35 and 43 xl become very interesting lenses. Maybe Schneider should go back to produce these lenses again. The 28xl was also a graet lens- the backs where the problem, but now...
 

Boinger

Active member
I keep an eye out on ebay sometimes a lens that I want pops up on their now and then.

Also if you absolutely need a copal you can always buy a cheap copal lens and just swap the shutter. It might cost you a little extra but is always an option. I did that with my schneider 150mm.
 

tjv

Active member
Evidently you can’t simply swap the shutter in as the tolerances are very tight and components matched exactly at the RS factory.

Paula at Linhof Studio has said she’s working on a solution for people finding themselves in a similar position to me, so fingers crossed all is not lost on the Copal front...

I keep an eye out on ebay sometimes a lens that I want pops up on their now and then.

Also if you absolutely need a copal you can always buy a cheap copal lens and just swap the shutter. It might cost you a little extra but is always an option. I did that with my schneider 150mm.
 

Boinger

Active member
Evidently you can’t simply swap the shutter in as the tolerances are very tight and components matched exactly at the RS factory.

Paula at Linhof Studio has said she’s working on a solution for people finding themselves in a similar position to me, so fingers crossed all is not lost on the Copal front...
I mean yes that's what they say. Having done it myself it seemed okay and the lens performance is okay for me. If you are very very concerned you could always send the lens with the replacement copal shutter to the factory or sk grimes to have it adjusted.
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
Hi all,

A very generous forum member has offered to loan me their 35mm APO-Digitar XL to try with my Credo 60. I've been sorely missing a wide angle lens for my technical camera setup (more view camera, being a Linhof Techno,) and I'd always planned to buy a Rodenstock 40mm HR W – my favourite FOV on 4x5" film – but now that they aren't sold new with Copal shutter my buying options are suddenly very limited. Hence I got to thinking about the SK 35mm as an alternative option on the second hand market. Long story short, I got to talking about the lens with someone who has one and uses it on their Techno and the offer was made for me to try it myself to see if it suits my needs. Very appreciative!

My question is to do with how it performs with the 60mpx CCD sensor and how much of a necessity the CF is if shifting up to 8mm (I'm not sure if the one I'm borrowing has one or not.) I've read in historic threads that 8mm of shift is reaching the limit on this lens if sharp corners and colour fidelity are important, is this still true with new versions of C1? How much usable shift does it have in comparison to the RS 40mm and is the performance difference (if any) much to write home about?

I guess my other question is what are people like me 'stuck' with CCD backs to do now that new lenses can't be had with Copal shutters? I see quite a few of these lenses for sale used in Alpa or Cambo mount, but very rarely (if ever) without a helicoid, mounted on a plain lens board. I can't afford to buy anything right now, but any tips for places to keep an eye out?

Thanks,

T

Pretty extensive test of 35XL on CCD backs here:
https://www.dtcommercialphoto.com/phase-one-iq250-tech-cam-testing/

The 35XL has a larger stated image circle, but is less sharp when shifted. I'd recommend the 43XL or the 40HR if possible.
 

tjv

Active member
Thanks Doug,

An academic question due to current lack of funds... but do you ever see these lenses in your inventory used? Do people ever trade them in? I’m kind of depressed at what seems like the extreme unlikelihood of ever finding one.

I’ve always considered the RS 40mm my best bet as I like to employ generous movements at times, but the SK 43mm sounds a good alternative especially with the newer back illuminated CMOS chips like in the new Fuji and IQ4 - I’m hoping Hasselblad eventually release a CFV with the higher res chip as a realistic upgrade path from my Credo as an IQ4 will most likely be cost prohibitive for a long while yet.
 

tjv

Active member
PS: am I right in thinking that your recommendation for the 35mm XL IC being 70mm only allows for 2mm rise / fall?
 

tjv

Active member
Bumping thread...

Wondering also how much rise / fall one can realistically use with the 35mm XL and a 60mpx CCD chip without CF before the lens cast and vignette is edging on too much to remove via LCC. I.e. can I get 5-8mm and do ok, or without CF is it far less?
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
PS: am I right in thinking that your recommendation for the 35mm XL IC being 70mm only allows for 2mm rise / fall?
Correct, based on our criteria of sharp results throughout the frame.

Schneider was very “optimistic” with the image circle sizes they specified for their lenses. If sharpness is important then the 40HR has significantly more room for movement.
 

Paul2660

Well-known member
I thought the IC on the 35XL was 90mm.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/400266-REG/Schneider_03_1002943_35mm_f_5_6_Apo_Digitar_XL.html/specs

The lenses I know that have 70mm are the Rodenstock 35mm and 28mm (magenta bands). Both of these are 70mm IC, and Rodenstock uses the IC indicator so once you shift past 5mm, you hit a hard vignette. Never did understand the need for that.

Net, if you shift the Rodenstock 35mm or 28mm, to 5mm, you quickly hit this vignette which BTW ruins a lot more than the outer edge of the image.

On the IQ160, I often shifted to 10mm, and usually 8mm, at 10mm you need to be at F11 for best results. Schneider does not use the IC indicator so you can take the lens out without vignetting. You must have the CF to shift it at all, due to the amount of light fall off. You can also get 10mm of rise and fall.

On more modern backs, 80MP and up, the lens can't handle the shifts past 5mm as you start to see a lot of smearing towards the edges.

The best thing about the 35XL besides the weight, and size, is the fact it's a symmetrical design, thus lends itself to pano work so much better than the Rodenstock's which are retrofocus so they tend to have classic retrofocus distortion towards the edge of the frame. At least all of mine due including the 40mm. Effect is elongation and flattening of subjects, just shoot a car tire and look at it, no longer round. Shift and it's worse.

Appears that some Rodenstock lenses have less of this distortion that others, but since you can't just to to your local store to check, you are at your dealer's mercy.

Paul C
 

aly324

Member
The lenses I know that have 70mm are the Rodenstock 35mm and 28mm (magenta bands). Both of these are 70mm IC, and Rodenstock uses the IC indicator so once you shift past 5mm, you hit a hard vignette. Never did understand the need for that.
Hi Paul, in practice do the HR-S lenses hard-vignette at exactly 70mm? Or rather at exactly 80mm?

More to the point, do you get dark corners if you use them on 6x6 film or can you just barely use them? (I know you're supposed to use screw-on filters on the rear ends to adjust for the lack of cover glass on film.)
 
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