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Thread: Phase 4150 - live view vs. taken image histograms

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    Phase 4150 - live view vs. taken image histograms

    I hope I can get some feedback regarding this issue. I have found that the taken image of my 4150 and its associated histogram are brighter than the live view image and its associated histogram when viewed on the LCD. I noticed it immediately when I received my back but didn't dig into it until recently.

    The histograms, to me, are a true reflection of the images they are associated with. The live view image is dimmer maybe by 1/2 to 3/4 stop (or slightly more ) and it's histogram reflects that. In a scene that has a lot of contrast the brighter taken image can be somewhat annoying as the brightest areas can approach loss of detail which can affect critical focus check. The associated histogram also shows that the image is in fact brighter.

    What is more interesting is that on my calibrated computer the image on screen almost exactly mimics the brightness of the live view image - not the taken image. The histogram in C1 also very closely matches the histogram in live view.

    It would be much more beneficial if I could rely on the taken image but it takes self training to match everything to the reliable live view.

    Am alone with this anomaly or is this common with all 4150's?

    Victor

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    Re: Phase 4150 - live view vs. taken image histograms

    Victor,
    I find the same thing. When taking all those tethered leather shots, it was clear that the captured image viewed on the LCD was brighter than the imported image. I think that was the case with the IQ3100 too, but not to this degree.

    Dave
    How glorious a greeting the sun gives the mountains! - John Muir

    davechewphotography.com
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    Re: Phase 4150 - live view vs. taken image histograms

    If 'all' 4150 backs have this anomaly it could/should be easily corrected with firmware. It would be great if the taken image and its associated histogram matched the live view and it's histogram.

    Victor

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    Re: Phase 4150 - live view vs. taken image histograms

    I had this same issue with the iq4150 and the gfx50. The GFX 50 was so bright that it actually ended up significantly underexposing everything I was shooting without me realizing it (I was trying out the camera at the time).

    What I found I have to do with the iq4150 is turn the display brightness way down, this helps match it a bit better. If you have display brightness at 80% (which is default I think) it is too much.

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    Re: Phase 4150 - live view vs. taken image histograms

    I have the same problem. But not pursued, because I first want to have solved the other IQ4 firmware problems. That's more important to me personally.

    I use the zone system in the picture control. And live with the wrong live view right now.

    But the problem still needs to be solved.

    Remaining black white live view about the Picture Styles is, at the moment, work not synonymous.

    Greeting Gerd

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    Re: Phase 4150 - live view vs. taken image histograms

    Quote Originally Posted by Boinger View Post
    I had this same issue with the iq4150 and the gfx50. The GFX 50 was so bright that it actually ended up significantly underexposing everything I was shooting without me realizing it (I was trying out the camera at the time).

    What I found I have to do with the iq4150 is turn the display brightness way down, this helps match it a bit better. If you have display brightness at 80% (which is default I think) it is too much.
    The only effect turning down the lcd brightness does is dimming the lcd. It has no effect on the histogram or threshold warnings. It's the same as turning down the brightness on you computer monitor which also would have no effect on a histogram or threshold warnings.

    Victor
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    Re: Phase 4150 - live view vs. taken image histograms

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerd View Post
    I have the same problem. But not pursued, because I first want to have solved the other IQ4 firmware problems. That's more important to me personally.

    I use the zone system in the picture control. And live with the wrong live view right now.

    But the problem still needs to be solved.

    Remaining black white live view about the Picture Styles is, at the moment, work not synonymous.

    Greeting Gerd
    Gerd..... it's the LV that is correct not the DB processed image. The zone system is accurately displaying the processed image which has been processed too brightly. That same image on your computer will be dimmer than the image displayed on the DB and what you see as blown out in the Zone system won't be on your computer.

    Victor
    Last edited by vjbelle; 4 Weeks Ago at 04:39.

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    Re: Phase 4150 - live view vs. taken image histograms

    This is visually what I am talking about. The first image shows the LV on my 4150 with an adjusted exposure to move the brightest wedge close to the right but not clipped and the associated histogram.

    The second image shows the DB processed image Zone system showing wedge 'A' - furthest left - completely blown. It shows wedges 2 and 3 to be beyond 250. On my computer screen wedge 'A' is at 249 and wedge 3 is at 219. To get that wedge to 249 requires a 1.3 Stop push.

    Image 3 shows the histogram from the DB processed file.

    My conclusion is that the DB processed image is a solid 1.3 stops brighter than the LV image and it's associated histogram and threshold warnings cannot be relied on.

    Victor
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    Last edited by vjbelle; 4 Weeks Ago at 05:14.

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    Re: Phase 4150 - live view vs. taken image histograms

    Hi,

    sorry I can't get your problem. The IQ4 RAW Histogramm, a first at all, really shows the Clipping of the RAW Files and which Highlights can be recovered and which not... I now can shoot a perfect ETTR Exposure with the maximum overexposure I can get and with the maximum tonality possible... Works precise every time.
    For me this is besides the new Frame Averaging Tool, with which I can push an image about 6-8 stops without any noise the most important feature of the IQ4.

    Frank

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    Re: Phase 4150 - live view vs. taken image histograms

    There’s a few moving parts behind your question. I’d suggest working with your dealer to understand what each of these tools *really* shows you, the nature of iso in a modern context, tone curve defaults, and one channel clipping recovery. Frame averaging is another offshoot of this conversation.

    When DT covers exposure evaluation theory and philosophy with an interested client the conversation usually lasts 20-30 minutes just on this topic, and it’s much better walked through with the back and C1 in front of uou (in person or via Skype). So it’s a bit out of scope for me to dive into on the forum typing on my phone trapped under my napping baby.

    But echoing the post just above this one, the tools are showing you the most powerful and accurate in-camera exposure evaluation system of any camera I’ve ever used. It’s just a matter of learning how to apply them to your personal goals and exposure philosophy.

    Anyway, put your dealer to work; it’s literally their job to help make sure you get the most out of that IQ4!
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183
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    Re: Phase 4150 - live view vs. taken image histograms

    What if you don't have a dealer ?

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    Re: Phase 4150 - live view vs. taken image histograms

    Work with a dealer... Again, you’re suggesting that all dealers are equal AND understand the intricacies of all details, let alone care in the details. There are maybe three Phase dealers in the world that might fit this catagory, of which you are one.

    If you know the answer to this question, Doug, then for the benefit of the community, how about a brief explanation? That is after all why we’re here - to share knowledge.

    The above is not meant to be rude or disrespectful, but does indicate a personal level of frustration with Phase sales and support on my side of ‘the ditch’.

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    Re: Phase 4150 - live view vs. taken image histograms

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    There’s a few moving parts behind your question. I’d suggest working with your dealer to understand what each of these tools *really* shows you, the nature of iso in a modern context, tone curve defaults, and one channel clipping recovery. Frame averaging is another offshoot of this conversation.

    When DT covers exposure evaluation theory and philosophy with an interested client the conversation usually lasts 20-30 minutes just on this topic, and it’s much better walked through with the back and C1 in front of uou (in person or via Skype). So it’s a bit out of scope for me to dive into on the forum typing on my phone trapped under my napping baby.

    But echoing the post just above this one, the tools are showing you the most powerful and accurate in-camera exposure evaluation system of any camera I’ve ever used. It’s just a matter of learning how to apply them to your personal goals and exposure philosophy.

    Anyway, put your dealer to work; it’s literally their job to help make sure you get the most out of that IQ4!
    I agree with you, Doug. There is a learning curve and P1 took the time to analyze what I sent them which is what I posted above. As long as there is no clipping in the LV histogram (top and bottom indicators) anything is recoverable. The center histogram in LV is not as important and even if it indicates clipping it will be recoverable as long as the top and bottom indicators don't indicate clipping.

    Victor

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    Re: Phase 4150 - live view vs. taken image histograms

    Quote Originally Posted by vjbelle View Post
    I agree with you, Doug. There is a learning curve and P1 took the time to analyze what I sent them which is what I posted above. As long as there is no clipping in the LV histogram (top and bottom indicators) anything is recoverable. The center histogram in LV is not as important and even if it indicates clipping it will be recoverable as long as the top and bottom indicators don't indicate clipping.

    Victor
    This is only partly correct.

    For example, one channel clipping is a perfectly valid exposure method depending on subject matter and hue consistency. And there are quite a few reasons you may want to pay attention to the center histogram and not just clipping. Moreover there are times where selective multi-channel clipping is the best choice, in which case the heat map becomes very valuable.

    Again, I’d really suggest a deep dive with your dealer on the topic of exposure. There’s a lot in this topic!
    Last edited by dougpeterson; 4 Weeks Ago at 04:24.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

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    Re: Phase 4150 - live view vs. taken image histograms

    Doug.... for such a new and beneficial tool I would think that Phase would provide some comprehensive documentation..... If it's there I sure can't find it.

    This tool does require some practice and a trip to a dealer shouldn't be the only method for coming up to speed.

    Thanks again for all of your appreciated posts....

    Victor
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    Re: Phase 4150 - live view vs. taken image histograms

    Quote Originally Posted by vjbelle View Post
    Doug.... for such a new and beneficial tool I would think that Phase would provide some comprehensive documentation..... If it's there I sure can't find it.

    This tool does require some practice and a trip to a dealer shouldn't be the only method for coming up to speed.

    Thanks again for all of your appreciated posts....

    Victor
    Primary training and support for Phase One comes through its partner channel. But I agree that more documentation on sophisticated exposure workflows incorporating these new tools would be welcome.

    In any case, no need for a “trip”. I’m sure your dealer can work with you by phone, Skype/FaceTime, etc; that’s how most of the support DT provides is accomplished. Even our clients that live in Manhattan or LA often choose FaceTime; especially when the summer makes the subways sweltering.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

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