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Technical Camera Help Please!

Greg Haag

Well-known member
You know, I think that Greg just needs to come along to a dealer or group meet up and we can share all of the accumulated knowledge/experience we’ve all been through with technical cameras ... :thumbs:

Big glass / copal shutter stress, LCC’s, exposure time variability, electronic shutter shooting, how to pack a bag, eyeball reflections on the LCD in the morning, how you can’t see crap at sunrise / sunset off the LCD due to the UV even early/late if you have transitions eye glass lenses (I have two sets - with and without) etc etc.
I would love that Graham! It has really been a struggle to get information that provides a global overview regarding technical cameras. Dave sent me a fabulous piece that he had put together, I wish he would expand on it an publish an ebook, I would be a buyer!
 

dchew

Well-known member
Thank you for your insight John! The delicate aspect of the 32HR is my biggest concern with that lens, in that regard, the 40HR is tempting. Also, if I understand correctly at some point in the near future the Copal shutter may not be available, what do you do at that point if your shutter needs replacing?
Thanks again,
Greg
The broken copal shutter is a good question. Most of us find the electronic shutter to be a fine solution. Unless you are doing flash work or something with man-made movement, I find no reason to connect the back to the lens and use the copal shutter. The aperture needs to work, but if the shutter itself failed I might not care. It probably makes sense to search out a few used copal shutters as spare parts. You could always swap out the copal shutter for the aperture-only connection. As John mentioned, it is nice to be able to close the shutter; much easier than fumbling around with lens caps or some other solution. I've been thinking about starting a thread that covers a few interesting solutions I've experimented with.

I would love that Graham! It has really been a struggle to get information that provides a global overview regarding technical cameras. Dave sent me a fabulous piece that he had put together, I wish he would expand on it an publish an ebook, I would be a buyer!
Thanks for the comment, Greg. I need more experience with an Actus / Rm3di system to expand the info around those systems. I've only used them in short-term demos. I'm working on an expanded version that covers field processes, but they keep changing with new digital backs so my revisions never end. It reminds me of an old saying we used to have in the office: "There comes a point in every project when you have to shoot the engineer and start production."

Dave
 

Paul2660

Well-known member
Copals have been out of production over two years now. Rodenstock was using a stock they had purchased in advance.

The 32 HR-W is delicate but I have had one sine 2016 which so far has been OK. I carry it in a special case I made for it in my pack.

Key is to not move it on camera/tripod as that can produce shock to create misalignment.

Note also if existing copal lenses need shutter replacement they will need to go to Rodenstock to have the aperture only mount applied. There are no more new copal 0 shutters new.

John’s point on the 3100 dark frame is a good point as without the Copal it’s lens cap only. Amazes me Phase never just addressed this in firmware.

Paul C
 

jng

Well-known member
Decision, decisions...

Re: 32 vs. 40 - tough choice. You may need to get both! :ROTFL: As mentioned by others, you can shift and stitch the 40HR to give an effectively much wider lens assuming this technique is suitable for your subject matter (architecture, landscapes). I routinely shift my 40HR +/-10 mm, which gives a final 16:9 image with some room for trimming at the edges. If you find yourself gravitating toward panoramic images with long aspect ratios, stitching is a nice way to achieve this without cropping away all those precious megapixels.

Re: Copal - with the IQ3100's electronic shutter, the only use my Copal shutters receive these days is the occasional "exercise" I give them to keep the lubrication from totally gumming up. In fact I stopped packing shutter sync cords in my kit entirely. Hopefully there are some technicians out there with a cache of spare parts as there seem to be for Hasselblad repair shops and the older (and I do mean older) Synchro-Compur shutters. Worst case scenario, the Copals can be replaced with aperture-only mounts or just left alone as long as the shutter is stuck open and not closed.

Dave's tech cam primer is indeed a valuable source of information. I think the best way to choose between Alpa vs. Cambo vs. Arca is to actually use them or at least watch others use them in their own workflows. All will give great results; it really boils down to which design resonates most with you and, sigh, your budget (Alpas and now Cambos are seemingly made from unobtainium). FWIW, I picked up a Cambo WRS1250 a few years ago and never looked back.

Dave: I think it's time for you to share your latest innovations in dark frame tools! :thumbup:

John
 

Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
The Arca uses a single front mount mechanism that tilts all lenses and is built into the camera body. Alpa and Cambo system require it on each lens mount ($$$$). The Cambo also has far more play in the mechanism than I'd like, but that's me.

Robert

There are positive and negative aspects of each implementation of technical camera tilt/swing for each manufacturer. And we sell all of the technical camera solutions - Alpa, Arca, Cambo, etc. Below are some additional details/corrections.

* ARCA TS
Positives are that the tilt/swing mechanism is built into the body, saving some cost and adding some convenience. Maximum tilt or swing is 5º.

Negatives are that it is limited to 5º. It cannot be combined with swing. Adapting to swing requires you to remove the entire lens assembly from the body and rotate 90º.


* CAMBO TS
Positives are that the tilt and the swing movement can be accomplished in a single capture. The knobs are isolated from the body, so less risk of pushing the camera out of registration. Maximum tilt or swing is 5º.

Negatives are that it does indeed add that cost to each lens.


* ALPA TS
Positives are that the tilt and swing movement can be accomplished in a single capture (with some lenses, and requires stacked adapters). The tilt or swing can also be moved to the rear of the camera. For some lenses, (2) tilt adapters can be stacked for an additional total of 12º tilt or swing.

Negatives are that if stacking tilt and swing to be in the same capture, they will not be on the same axis point. There is added cost, but not per lens, as was stated above, one TS adapter will work with any lens that is mounted (in SB mount).


Steve Hendrix/CI
 

Geoff

Well-known member
Kudos to Dave Chew for that wonderful outline of the lenses. Really a great resource, from someone who knows. Thank you for this.

Also have the 60XL lens and find it quite remarkable - it goes into diffuse or dim lit situations and finds beauty tucked away. The 90HRW does the same - although my copy is very susceptible to glare.
 

Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
Copals have been out of production over two years now. Rodenstock was using a stock they had purchased in advance.

The 32 HR-W is delicate but I have had one sine 2016 which so far has been OK. I carry it in a special case I made for it in my pack.

Key is to not move it on camera/tripod as that can produce shock to create misalignment.

Note also if existing copal lenses need shutter replacement they will need to go to Rodenstock to have the aperture only mount applied. There are no more new copal 0 shutters new.

John’s point on the 3100 dark frame is a good point as without the Copal it’s lens cap only. Amazes me Phase never just addressed this in firmware.

Paul C

I have certainly had clients with 32HR issues, but the majority have not. It should be handled with care, but then again, I would consider that any of these lenses should be handled with care. They are precision instruments, after all.

Yes, with pre-IQ4 models, you'll need to have a way to expose for dark frame, at least at times. I don't like the idea of placing the cap back on the lens, I'm always leery I will move something. Look for our upcoming Black LCC Product soon!


Steve Hendrix/CI

IMG_5957 copy.jpg
 

RLB

Member
Decision, decisions...

Re: 32 vs. 40 - tough choice. You may need to get both! :ROTFL: As mentioned by others, you can shift and stitch the 40HR to give an effectively much wider lens assuming this technique is suitable for your subject matter (architecture, landscapes). I routinely shift my 40HR +/-10 mm, which gives a final 16:9 image with some room for trimming at the edges. If you find yourself gravitating toward panoramic images with long aspect ratios, stitching is a nice way to achieve this without cropping away all those precious megapixels.

Re: Copal - with the IQ3100's electronic shutter, the only use my Copal shutters receive these days is the occasional "exercise" I give them to keep the lubrication from totally gumming up. In fact I stopped packing shutter sync cords in my kit entirely. Hopefully there are some technicians out there with a cache of spare parts as there seem to be for Hasselblad repair shops and the older (and I do mean older) Synchro-Compur shutters. Worst case scenario, the Copals can be replaced with aperture-only mounts or just left alone as long as the shutter is stuck open and not closed.

Dave's tech cam primer is indeed a valuable source of information. I think the best way to choose between Alpa vs. Cambo vs. Arca is to actually use them or at least watch others use them in their own workflows. All will give great results; it really boils down to which design resonates most with you and, sigh, your budget (Alpas and now Cambos are seemingly made from unobtainium). FWIW, I picked up a Cambo WRS1250 a few years ago and never looked back.

Dave: I think it's time for you to share your latest innovations in dark frame tools! :thumbup:

John

We have the 32 and 40 Rode HR's, Started with the 40 added the 32 two years later. I almost always choose the 32 over the 40, it would be nice if the 32 were a bit smaller though.
The 40 is a fabulous lens for half the price and weight, and I'd not hesitate to start there.

Regarding issues with alignment issue, I can see how it would happen but I feel you'd have to be fairly rough with it to produce that problem. I've carried the Rm3di and Factum with the 32 on the body in the field for years with no issues...not bouncing it over my shoulders, but carrying it upright in front of me like a steady cam.

Robert
 

RLB

Member
There are positive and negative aspects of each implementation of technical camera tilt/swing for each manufacturer. And we sell all of the technical camera solutions - Alpa, Arca, Cambo, etc. Below are some additional details/corrections.

* ARCA TS
Positives are that the tilt/swing mechanism is built into the body, saving some cost and adding some convenience. Maximum tilt or swing is 5º.

Negatives are that it is limited to 5º. It cannot be combined with swing. Adapting to swing requires you to remove the entire lens assembly from the body and rotate 90º.


* CAMBO TS
Positives are that the tilt and the swing movement can be accomplished in a single capture. The knobs are isolated from the body, so less risk of pushing the camera out of registration. Maximum tilt or swing is 5º.

Negatives are that it does indeed add that cost to each lens.


* ALPA TS
Positives are that the tilt and swing movement can be accomplished in a single capture (with some lenses, and requires stacked adapters). The tilt or swing can also be moved to the rear of the camera. For some lenses, (2) tilt adapters can be stacked for an additional total of 12º tilt or swing.

Negatives are that if stacking tilt and swing to be in the same capture, they will not be on the same axis point. There is added cost, but not per lens, as was stated above, one TS adapter will work with any lens that is mounted (in SB mount).


Steve Hendrix/CI

Can't remember a shot or project I've ever done where I needed more than 2 degrees of lens tilt. Sure, its possible, but its extraordinary in my opinion. The focus on the Arca is extremely fine, and again, in my opinion, finer than that of the Alpa or Cambo.

Robert
 

Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
Can't remember a shot or project I've ever done where I needed more than 2 degrees of lens tilt. Sure, its possible, but its extraordinary in my opinion. The focus on the Arca is extremely fine, and again, in my opinion, finer than that of the Alpa or Cambo.

Robert

I am not really trying to debate the comparative merits of these cameras. While we are intimately familiar with each and how they compare, since we sell all of them, I am only clarifying their capabilities.

I never assume limitations are good for all photographers, so while 2º of tilt may be ideal for some, more might be desired by others. You could say the same for shift and other extending aspects of these cameras.

In the end, each of them has something unique to offer.


Steve Hendrix/CI
 

RLB

Member
I am not really trying to debate the comparative merits of these cameras. While we are intimately familiar with each and how they compare, since we sell all of them, I am only clarifying their capabilities.

I never assume limitations are good for all photographers, so while 2º of tilt may be ideal for some, more might be desired by others. You could say the same for shift and other extending aspects of these cameras.

In the end, each of them has something unique to offer.


Steve Hendrix/CI

While I agree each has system has its own approach, I feel its important to discuss what people like and dislike about each...hence the thread.

Would be interesting to see if anyone one the list regularly or has ever used more than 5 degrees of lens tilt. Regarding shift, that's dictated by lenses and DB combination more than bodies. The Arca Factum only has 15 degrees of shift, however that cover 90% of lens and DB maximum practical shift, so more may not be so relevant where as compact
size of the Factum is.


R
 

Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
While I agree each has system has its own approach, I feel its important to discuss what people like and dislike about each...hence the thread.

Would be interesting to see if anyone one the list regularly or has ever used more than 5 degrees of lens tilt. Regarding shift, that's dictated by lenses and DB combination more than bodies. The Arca Factum only has 15 degrees of shift, however that cover 90% of lens and DB maximum practical shift, so more may not be so relevant where as compact
size of the Factum is.


R

Yes, I agree.

But even if no one on this thread said they once used more than 5º tilt, I am still going to point it out to any prospective user so they know the capabilities. I won't assume that even on a thread where no one says they need 7º tilt that absolutely no one anywhere would.
 

dchew

Well-known member
While I agree each has system has its own approach, I feel its important to discuss what people like and dislike about each...hence the thread.

Would be interesting to see if anyone one the list regularly or has ever used more than 5 degrees of lens tilt. Regarding shift, that's dictated by lenses and DB combination more than bodies. The Arca Factum only has 15 degrees of shift, however that cover 90% of lens and DB maximum practical shift, so more may not be so relevant where as compact
size of the Factum is.


R
I’ve maxed out the 5 degrees on one Alpa adapter shooting product with the 90mm. I also like the flexibility to tilt the back if I want. You can fake back tilt by tilting the whole camera; I just find it’s easier and faster to do it directly.

Dave
 
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dchew

Well-known member
I prefer Alpa’s tilt design because of the flexibility. But, I don’t shoot really wide that often so don’t miss tilt on wide angles. As Steve and others have said, this is an area that is personal preference.

Dave
 
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Greg Haag

Well-known member
Well, I pulled the trigger and my setup will be here tomorrow. I really appreciate Steve Hendrix with Capture Integration for his patience and insight while I worked thru this, as well as the wealth of knowledge and insight from everyone here. I wish there was a book on how to's for the next step, but I will wade in tomorrow and see how it goes. If anyone knows of any great workshops or opportunities to learn more about shooting with technical cameras, I would love to know about them. Below is what I ordered to get started.

Phase One IQ3 100 Digital Back,
Certified Pre-Owned
5,800 shots
Value Add Warranty

Phase One 3400mAh Lithium Battery (4)
Phase One Wake Up Cable
Phase One Mini to Multi Adapter Cable for Wake Up
Kaiser Locking Cable Release 20"
Hahnel Remote Release for IQ3
CI Pocket LCC

Cambo WRS 1600 Technical Shift Camera
New

Rodenstock 32mm/4 HR-W Lens in Cambo Copal Shutter Lenspanel
Certified Pre-Owned

Cambo WRS Interface for IQ4
 

jng

Well-known member
Greg,

Congratulations! And you found a great partner in Steve at CI.

Looking forward to seeing what you do with the new kit.

John
 

GrahamWelland

Subscriber & Workshop Member
Pretty much an ideal ‘starter’ outfit and TBH a lot of folks only have / need / want a single tech lens outfit! :thumbs:
 
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