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Thread: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    Quote Originally Posted by vjbelle View Post
    I have a Schneider 120 Asph that I want to use on my XT. I have to wait until mid 2020 for that option.
    You don't have to wait. You can have remounted into a standard Cambo lens board today and use it the same as you can on another tech camera today (no integration or automation).

    Quote Originally Posted by vjbelle View Post
    When that option is available will the XT shutter have built into it the lens data?
    In mid 2020 you could have it mounted onto a native XT board with X-Shutter. Since that service is not up and running, the following is informed/rational speculation.

    The lens data (model, aperture, serial number) will likely be incorporated into the X-Shutter, yes.

    Whether that translates to automatic distortion and LCC correction is less likely, given that this requires extensive profiling in SK and the 120ASPH is no longer made for the general public (only under special contract for DT's Cultural Heritage Division).

    The 120ASPH is very very low in distortion and lens cast at 12mm movement, so for this specific lens it probably won't matter either way.

    Quote Originally Posted by vjbelle View Post
    Will a generac XT shutter be available for me to mount any lens on? If so will spacers either dumb or smart be made available so I can meet FFD?
    Very unlikely. All discussions have been regarding providing the shutter as a component to 3rd parties such as Rodenstock for them to integrate into their lenses which are then used by other 3rd parties such as Arca.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    Wonít the 120mm Schneider need a back extension? I know it has one on Arca and if I remember correctly it did on Cambo. For that matter so does the 90 HRSW. Same length of extension.

    It seems that any lens with a back extension would fit the XT but the XT would become just a standard tech camera as no communication would be available.

    Unless a smart back extension is made.

    Paul C

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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    So ... anyone buying this system on this forum? If so, already owner of a tech cam or new? Genuinely curious regarding demand!
    Last edited by Paul Spinnler; 11th September 2019 at 12:34. Reason: grammar

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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post
    Won’t the 120mm Schneider need a back extension? I know it has one on Arca and if I remember correctly it did on Cambo. For that matter so does the 90 HRSW. Same length of extension.
    Cambo had two versions, one was an all-in-front, and the other a split-with-rear-extension version.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Spinnler View Post
    So ... anyone buying this system on this forum? If so, already owner of a tech cam or new? Genuinely curious regarding demand!
    Also very curious..... any early adopters?

    Victor

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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    I think interest in the Phase XT will increase as more lenses are added with the XT shutter.

    I would think the HR40 would be popular...

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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    Quote Originally Posted by vjbelle View Post
    Also very curious..... any early adopters?

    Victor
    Not here, but it has inspired me to try a quick hack to make an AF capable tech cam...

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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    Will stick with my STC-40/70/90/150/210 tiltable setup.
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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    For now Iíll stick with Arca. I first want to see where the XT is really going and what the cost will be in the end.
    Christopher Hauser
    http://www.chauser.eu

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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    Not me, but I doubt existing technical camera owners are the primary focus. It depends on what lenses people have and/or use. I don't think it is reasonable to expect many people will carry two systems, so anyone shooting longer lenses is out, at least for now.

    For me, I would have to give up way too much: Tilt, longer lenses, $$ and the system would weigh more. I've worked on refining equipment in my bag for almost 10 years, and lens choice is a very big part of that. I would gain some workflow efficiency, maybe. It pales in comparison to the workflow efficiency the IQ3100 offered and the IQ4150 too.

    I think it was the right move for Phase to make, given the constraints they face in the market. I applaud the product, but it is not something I see in my future.

    Dave
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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    From my seat it appears the XT may be aimed at photographers who are not current Tech camera users , whether this was intentional or not on P1 part I can't answer.
    It's set in a place between the XF and everyone else's less electronic Tech cameras. I'm excited as others are that another manufacture has even entered the Tech camera arena with a new product...when's the last time that happened?

    While it is not perfect, the XT does bring more automation, information and potentially "easier" workflow compared to other Tech camera options.
    What it leaves off (currently) are lens options and tilt, which for a new adopter of Tech cameras could likely be less of an issue. In contrast for those that have used Tech cameras for may years and large format film prior that, the limitations vs additional features the XT brings may or may not be enough for them to add it at this time. While the body itself is not that pricey, the lenses are, and to take advantage of the XT functionality one must have both. This means either buying all new lenses from a very short list at a high price, or sending your current lenses to Phase (sometime in 2020) to add the XT mount and CFE shutter at a relatively high cost (I saw $4,500 quoted but don't know if that is accurate). While one certainly could (assuming I understand this correctly) it does not seem like a "sensible" concept to simply attach ones Cambo mounted lenses to the XT, as there is no advantage to doing so over any other Tech camera and of course you have 0 tilt options.

    I'm interested to see how this plays out. I hope that there will be 100% compatibility with the SK XF Blue Ring lenses...that seems like enticement to me with lenses like the 35mm, 120mm, 240mm (need a lens ring tripod mount on some of those for sure). The upshot to this is not buying yet a whole new set of lenses overlapping focal lengths I already own for my XF.

    The CFE shutter is welcome sight as Copal is officially gone along with everyone else's electronic shutters and controllers which never really seem to catch on. Here's a concept:
    the XT II....which has a huge CFE shutter built into the body, not the lens. NOW your talking compatibility...add a front tilt like the Arca too while your at it. I'm excited about that concept.


    Robert

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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    Quote Originally Posted by buildbot View Post
    Not here, but it has inspired me to try a quick hack to make an AF capable tech cam...
    Gear ring on focusing ring coupled with a laser range finder would be pretty easy to do. Especially mated to an arduino of some kind.

    You would avoid the need to interface with the DB.

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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    Quote Originally Posted by RLB View Post
    From my seat it appears the XT may be aimed at photographers who are not current Tech camera users , whether this was intentional or not on P1 part I can't answer.
    It's set in a place between the XF and everyone else's less electronic Tech cameras. I'm excited as others are that another manufacture has even entered the Tech camera arena with a new product...when's the last time that happened?

    While it is not perfect, the XT does bring more automation, information and potentially "easier" workflow compared to other Tech camera options.
    What it leaves off (currently) are lens options and tilt, which for a new adopter of Tech cameras could likely be less of an issue. In contrast for those that have used Tech cameras for may years and large format film prior that, the limitations vs additional features the XT brings may or may not be enough for them to add it at this time. While the body itself is not that pricey, the lenses are, and to take advantage of the XT functionality one must have both. This means either buying all new lenses from a very short list at a high price, or sending your current lenses to Phase (sometime in 2020) to add the XT mount and CFE shutter at a relatively high cost (I saw $4,500 quoted but don't know if that is accurate). While one certainly could (assuming I understand this correctly) it does not seem like a "sensible" concept to simply attach ones Cambo mounted lenses to the XT, as there is no advantage to doing so over any other Tech camera and of course you have 0 tilt options.

    I'm interested to see how this plays out. I hope that there will be 100% compatibility with the SK XF Blue Ring lenses...that seems like enticement to me with lenses like the 35mm, 120mm, 240mm (need a lens ring tripod mount on some of those for sure). The upshot to this is not buying yet a whole new set of lenses overlapping focal lengths I already own for my XF.

    The CFE shutter is welcome sight as Copal is officially gone along with everyone else's electronic shutters and controllers which never really seem to catch on. Here's a concept:
    the XT II....which has a huge CFE shutter built into the body, not the lens. NOW your talking compatibility...add a front tilt like the Arca too while your at it. I'm excited about that concept.
    I think your analysis is absolutely spot on. I think a good number of current tech camera owners will fall in love with the XT, especially when they get to actually see and use one. But there are FAR more people who love image quality, want to use movements (or are at least "movement curious") and don't own a tech camera, nor would be interested in their current level of complexity.

    Only three notes from me...

    While one certainly could (assuming I understand this correctly) it does not seem like a "sensible" concept to simply attach ones Cambo mounted lenses to the XT, as there is no advantage to doing so over any other Tech camera and of course you have 0 tilt options.
    You can attach Cambo Mount TS lenses. But you are correct that mounting Cambo Mount lenses to an XT has no workflow advantage above/beyond any other tech camera (of course, the XT itself has a nice balance of total movement vs weight/size and integrated rotation from horizontal to vertical). It would be, for example, a sensible option if you already owned that lens, especially if you planned to upgrade that lens to an XT mount in the future, or if you are filling in a gap in lens coverage that you don't plan on using very often (and therefore you might be better off buying used in Cambo mount).

    The shutter is the Phase One X-Shutter, not "CFE" unless I'm misunderstanding you.

    Don't know where you got the $4500 price point from. The price to remount a lens into the X-Shutter has not yet been set, even in ballpark form; that service is not yet set up, let alone finalized.
    Last edited by dougpeterson; 11th September 2019 at 15:20.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    I think your analysis is absolutely spot on. I think a good number of current tech camera owners will fall in love with the XT, especially when they get to actually see and use one. But there are FAR more people who love image quality, want to use movements (or are at least "movement curious") and don't own a tech camera, nor would be interested in their current level of complexity.

    Only three notes from me...

    You can attach Cambo Mount TS lenses. But you are correct that mounting Cambo Mount lenses to an XT has no workflow advantage above/beyond any other tech camera (of course, the XT itself has a nice balance of total movement vs weight/size and integrated rotation from horizontal to vertical). It would be, for example, a sensible option if you already owned that lens, especially if you planned to upgrade that lens to an XT mount in the future, or if you are filling in a gap in lens coverage that you don't plan on using very often (and therefore you might be better off buying used in Cambo mount).

    The shutter is the Phase One X-Shutter, not "CFE" unless I'm misunderstanding you.

    Don't know where you got the $4500 price point from. The price to remount a lens into the X-Shutter has not yet been set, even in ballpark form; that service is not yet set up, let alone finalized.

    X-shutter = CFE shutter (Carbon Fiber Electric)

    Thought I saw an estimated price of $4,500. for X mount somewhere in the threads...of course you as a dealer would know. Assuming the current range of cost for a mount on Arca/Cambo/Alpa range from $1,200 - $3,500, the concept of $4,500 for a mount with shutter does not seem to far off "speculation".

    A while back (as you may remember) Arca offered a FPS for the R body as an add on mechanism. I really like the idea of adding a large shutter inside the Tech body and not in the lens..of course this presents its own engineering issues: potential vulnerability to damage, the large size may limit high shutter speeds do to leaf acceleration limitation, and cost to produce it. Its a concept, and my guess P1 may have explored it before deciding on the direction they chose for the XT.

    Not sure if its right for me, but looking forward to test driving one soon.


    Robert

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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    It was a guess based on known prices of the Rodenstock 32mm in aperture only mount. Plug that price in and subtract from 12K. Leaves around 3.8K to 4.5K.

    Currently list on X shutter 32 mount appears to be 12k. I will round up from $11990. Never have understood that price model.

    Maybe Phase one will offer special deals to move existing customers to the XT which will be a lot less.

    Paul C

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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    Tomorrow I'll be test/demo shooting the new XT. As an existing Cambo/Phase IQ4-150 achromatic/Rodie shooter I'm excited to try the new rig. Sure, today there is a limited lens quiver to select from. In time more lenses will come into play for the XT.

    Moving into a more touch screen based workflow all on the rear display is a natural evolution and advancement. This interests me a lot.

    I'm not certain that bracketing will become part of my workflow in that the achromatic back gives me images that have incredible range. That being said I'll give bracketing a try and see if it is something that produces even better results.

    Overall though, having a Linux based format for the back enables the firmware writers to add features that we can only dream of. I'm keenly interested to see what will be coming our way. I have a feeling we will be amazed at the developments in the firmware.
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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    A lot of this is either factually inaccurate...
    Could you please highlight exactly what is factually inaccurate in the text you quoted?

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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffrey View Post
    Tomorrow I'll be test/demo shooting the new XT. As an existing Cambo/Phase IQ4-150 achromatic/Rodie shooter I'm excited to try the new rig.
    Jeffrey,

    As with your IQ4 150 achromatic, weíll be living vicariously through you

    I definitely see the appeal of a more Ďmoderní integrated technical camera and electronic shutter based technical camera. I donít think that itís for me as Iím comfortable with the old school Actus DB2/G that I use but if I were a new buyer it certainly would be at the top of my consideration list.

    Say hi to Francis from me.

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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post
    Wonít the 120mm Schneider need a back extension? I know it has one on Arca and if I remember correctly it did on Cambo. For that matter so does the 90 HRSW. Same length of extension.

    It seems that any lens with a back extension would fit the XT but the XT would become just a standard tech camera as no communication would be available.

    Unless a smart back extension is made.

    Paul C
    Paul,

    Just wanted to pop in here for a second on this one. The official word from Cambo is that some of the current short barrel lenses can possibly be retrofitted into long barrel configuration for use with the XT.

    Shoot me an email with some photos and I'll confirm if its possible with the lens you have now. That should save you and your dealer some headache and travel time.
    Blake Griffin - Channel Manager - Cambo USA
    Cambousa.com l Email l US Dealer List

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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    The price to remount a lens into the X-Shutter has not yet been set, even in ballpark form; that service is not yet set up, let alone finalized.
    That I will be eagerly awaiting.In the meantime, I will be demoing the XT next week and am looking forward to it.
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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffrey View Post
    Tomorrow I'll be test/demo shooting the new XT. As an existing Cambo/Phase IQ4-150 achromatic/Rodie shooter I'm excited to try the new rig.
    Jeffrey

    If I were in your shoes I would demo the XT too. Sadly I am not-poor me with my nice Alpa kit and IQ4150 achromatic. haha
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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    Quote Originally Posted by drunkenspyder View Post
    That I will be eagerly awaiting.In the meantime, I will be demoing the XT next week and am looking forward to it.
    Look forward to hearing what both of you Cambo demo guys have to say afterwards.
    Last edited by algrove; 12th September 2019 at 17:57.
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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    Quote Originally Posted by algrove View Post
    Jeffrey

    If I were in your shoes I would demo the XT too. Sadly I am not-poor me with my nice Alpa kit and IQ4150 achromatic. haha

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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    Manual focus only.

    Tools for focusing:
    - Review at 100%
    - Live view focus mask
    - Live view at 100%
    - Distance and Hyperfocal markings on the DT HPF Ring: Suggested Accessories for the Phase One XT - Phase One XT
    Hi Doug,

    Can focus mask be combined with 100% view?

    Best regards
    Erik

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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    Quote Originally Posted by ErikKaffehr View Post
    Hi Doug,

    Can focus mask be combined with 100% view?

    Best regards
    Erik
    Erik, since the context of the XT is primarily around the IQ4150, no, at least not yet. It has focus "peaking" while in live view at up to 400%, but focus "mask" during image review only shows on the image full-scene.

    Dave
    Last edited by dchew; 12th September 2019 at 17:22.
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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    So I guess that is a no on entering movements into metadata via the back ?

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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    I don’t know why PhaseOne hasn’t chosen for incorporating a focal plane shutter in their XT, like the Alpa FPS. Then anyone would be able to use lenses without leaf shutters, or use existing lenses through bypassing the mechanical leaf shutter.

    I presume PhaseOne must have thought about that as well, taking the install base of current optics and rework activities to an electronic leaf shutter into consideration.

    Any Alpa FPS owners out here understanding why a focal plane shutter would not be a good idea?

    Regards,
    Jaap.
    Last edited by JaapD; 13th September 2019 at 02:53.

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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    More vibration, less money to make. We could just use used cambo lenses.

    Quote Originally Posted by JaapD View Post
    I donít know why PhaseOne hasnít chosen for incorporating a focal plane shutter in their XT, like the Alpa FPS. Then anyone would be able to use lenses without leaf shutters.

    I presume PhaseOne must have thought about that as well, taking the install base of current optics and rework activities to an electronic leaf shutter into consideration.

    Any Alpa FPS owners out here understanding why a focal plane shutter would not be a good idea?

    Regards,
    Jaap.
    Christopher Hauser
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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    More vibration, less money to make. We could just use used cambo lenses.
    While a nice dose of cynicism never hurts, you CAN “just use Cambo lenses” on the XT and adding a focal plane shutter to the XT would have only provided up to 1/125 shutter speed with flash sync and wouldn’t have provided lens model-serial metadata or aperture control and aperture metadata.

    It’s the lens that needs to be smart to achieve complete simplicity and integration.

    — reposting from LL...

    FPS:
    - flash sync: 1/125
    - vibration: considerable
    - aperture control: manual
    - lens metadata: none
    - durability: ~100,000
    - flange distance: uses up several mm
    - Alpas implementation also added considerable size, weight, an extra cable and an extra battery, though P1 might have been able to improve on that

    X-shutter (Leaf shutter)
    - flash sync: 1/1000
    - vibration: negligible
    - aperture control: automatic
    - lens metadata: automatic
    - durability: 1,000,000
    - flange distance: no impact

    I don’t have exact weight specs but between the mechanism itself and the impact on the housing/chassis a LS is going to be considerably lighter until you get to a several lens kit. The power draw of a leaf shutter is also considerably less than a FPS since it’s moving a much much smaller mass.

    Two advantages of the FPS are
    - reduced cost when the kit has several lenses. It’s not that Phase One doesn’t care about cost, but they are a company that prioritizes quality and flexibility much higher than cost.
    - faster max shutter speed (1/4000) albeit without flash sync. This is mostly (though not entirely) covered by sensor-based ES that has come available since the FPS was developed.
    Last edited by dougpeterson; 13th September 2019 at 03:31.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    How important is flash sync speed to the majority of tech cam users I wonder?

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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    Quote Originally Posted by Massive Si View Post
    How important is flash sync speed to the majority of tech cam users I wonder?
    For landscape shooters: not even a tiny bit
    For architectural shooters: a LOT
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    Quote Originally Posted by Massive Si View Post
    How important is flash sync speed to the majority of tech cam users I wonder?
    Provably dependents in the market. Even in architecture in Europe I would say not that important. Compared to the US.
    Christopher Hauser
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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    Just a short question on warranty. Am I correct that there is no way to get more than a year even if you buy the XT and all lenses? (Over 35k) Upgrade a back to a IQ4 and an XT?

    The only way to get 5years is buy the XT lenses and a new back as a bundle, correct?

    Another point, if you now buy the XT there will be no chance for extended warranty on any new lenses (40/90..) correct?
    Christopher Hauser
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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    Thanks Doug, much appreciated!

    Some observations w.r.t. an XT design and an integrated focal plane shutter:
    - flash sync: 1/125 => I canít deny this, but how troublesome is this? Think about the huge amount of cameras with a sync speed of 1/125Ö 1/250. Canít be that unusable. Iíd also like to mention HSS.
    - vibration: considerable => I question this. In many cases with DSLRs mirror slap and shutter vibration are mixed up. Here we only have risk of shutter vibration.
    - flange distance: uses up several mm => no impact in case of fully integrating it in the camera design.

    Last but not least ďItís not that Phase One doesnít care about cost, but they are a company that prioritizes quality and flexibility much higher than cost.Ē => Maybe PhaseOne would be better off if they first care about their customers. Many of them possessing very expensive high quality glass containing mechanical shutters. Solving that problem would be a good example of 'flexibility', and not needing to shop elsewhere outside the boundaries of PhaseOne.

    Regards,
    Jaap.
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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    Has anyone confirmed that shutter speeds longer than 1 sec revert to the ES of the IQ4? In Phase marketing lit. they show the X shutter range from 1/1000 to 60 sec. which implies the X shutter can handle the full range.

    Paul C

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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    While a nice dose of cynicism never hurts, you CAN ďjust use Cambo lensesĒ on the XT and adding a focal plane shutter to the XT would have only provided up to 1/125 shutter speed with flash sync and wouldnít have provided lens model-serial metadata or aperture control and aperture metadata.

    Itís the lens that needs to be smart to achieve complete simplicity and integration.

    ó reposting from LL...

    FPS:
    - vibration: considerable
    - aperture control: manual
    .
    This is simply not true.

    Why do you continue to misrepresent the FPS? Youíve been doing it for years now.

    The simple fact is that if your company sold the FPS, youíd be singing its praises from the rooftops.

    Complete and total lack of objectivity.

    Still waiting for you to list what was factually incorrect from a previous post you responded to.
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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    It's clear to me, the only winners in this game besides P1 are new customers will to pay 18k for a XT and lens, and Cambo users with lenses in existing Cambo's WRS mount. The current Cambo lenses fit into the XT, albeit no XT shutter features and nothing more than working with a WRS1600, dumb lens, dumb camera. But the cost to switch mounting would be considerably less I assume.

    The Alpa, and Arca users, have very little alternatives. No one with a reasonable budget and clear thinking would attempt to own both systems, due to excessive cost. So that leaves only switching mounts. Things to consider.

    1. Cost, no prices have been shown, but it's fair to say the cost will be 3K or higher. Personally I feel it's going to be more like 4K. Just based on simple math. Price of new 32 HR-W and Cambo mount with T/S vs Price of XT/32 HR-W at 12K.

    2. A lot of moving around and insurance/shipping costs. These lenses are not cheap and they are delicate. Shipping example, for a Arca user: User to dealer, Dealer to P1, P1 to Rodenstock to remove Copal and add X shutter (BTW, never been mentioned if the lens has the Rodenstock aperture only design or if the shutter has aperture control like a copal). Rodenstock back to P1 for testing, P1 back to dealer, dealer back to customer. Lots of shipping, and overseas, customs, insurance, etc.

    3. Trade in your existing Arca 32 HR-W with Copal or 23 HR-W with Copal, probably for less than 50% of current list. So best case 4K. So now you are looking at 8K for just a lens lens albeit a lens with more technology built in and with a promising future of enhancements.

    Phase could only pick one company, and if I owned a Cambo system, I would be much more prone to consideration of switching, even though loss of tilt for me would be something I would notice on most shots. If Phase One does add support for the Blue ring Schneider's later on, this again would be a big plus, as the 75-150 or 240LS would be excellent considerations. However odds are only the BL Schneider's will work so my 240 LS would be a non player.

    Doug's point on the limiting of shift to 12mm, (24 total) is a good one as no current Rodenstock wide, 23, 28, 32 and IMO 40mm can really shift pass 12mm and hold up to the edge. If you need more, then rotate to portrait and shot a pano series. Love the quick ability to rotate to portrait, (but again here tilt becomes for me even more important for Full Field DOF).

    PS, I am sure many will say just use focus bracketing. I agree it should work. Only if you have no movement in the subject matter as none of the current tools I have used that combine images from focus bracketing will handle movement.

    For me the weakest link of the entire setup is the total dependence on the Live View from the IQ4. From my use the Live View on the IQ4 is much harder to use in the field to obtain 100% sure focus, less contrast or details. The LCD on the IQ4 lacks enough brightness to really work in daylight (sun shades included). And the screen will not tilt off flat, so any low work, or angled work is much harder to see. Options are to move to HDMI output of Live View and then use a 1000 Nit screen, which does work, but again Live on the IQ4 is troubling at best, as Auto for me pulses between too bright and too dark over and over, and the Exposure Simulation can't work in low light without pushing ISO to 2000 to 4000 etc. The current HDMI output can't be manipulated on the external screen, instead you have to move the image around with the blue arrows on the back's LCD, which ties you right back to the LCD. I guess in time Phase will come out with some form of an EVF external but at what cost. The simple solution at least for me is to spend the time to get a Capture Pilot solution out which would allow for a lot more flexibility.

    Paul C

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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    This is simply not true.
    I'd welcome any factual corrections, and would gladly incorporate them into my post to ensure it is accurate. But I suspect you're misreading my post, as I'm very confident in each of these points.

    Note that "FPS" here stands for "Focal Plane Shutter" generically rather than for the "Alpa FPS" which I only addressed in one point on my post (about weight/size/cable/battery in their specific implementation of a FPS). Noting the disadvantages of focal plane shutters applies broadly across a variety of solutions including the Hartblei, the Arca Swiss FPS that was abandoned, and even the XF.
    Last edited by dougpeterson; 13th September 2019 at 05:57.
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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post
    Has anyone confirmed that shutter speeds longer than 1 sec revert to the ES of the IQ4? In Phase marketing lit. they show the X shutter range from 1/1000 to 60 sec. which implies the X shutter can handle the full range.
    I've been discussing this with the product manager and that specification is not yet solidified; based on our feedback (largely sourced from this thread) it is being reconsidered as it's clear there are some good reasons the max mechanical shutter length should be longer than 1".

    Would you find 10" or 60" as a maximum more reasonable? I can't possibly see any value in using the mechanical shutter beyond several seconds; beyond that the ES would seem preferable as the fraction of a second roll-on and roll-off period would seem to be entirely moot. But it seems sensible to me to round up heavily (from several seconds to 10" or 60" or similar) as people find unusual use cases for specialized/advanced equipment.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    Quote Originally Posted by JaapD View Post
    Some observations w.r.t. an XT design and an integrated focal plane shutter:
    - flash sync: 1/125 => I can’t deny this, but how troublesome is this? Think about the huge amount of cameras with a sync speed of 1/125… 1/250. Can’t be that unusable. I’d also like to mention HSS.
    The use case here is adding fill flash (or in some cases, key-light flash) to architectural interior shots when direct daylight is streaming through the window. In this use case every stop of flash sync speed means (pick any):
    - Another stop worth of lighting ratio between your flash and the ambient light
    - The option to bring either half the power packs / heads or power packs and heads that are one stop less powerful
    - The ability to light a room 40% taller/larger than you otherwise would have been able to do, without changing the ratio of the ambient light

    HSS is a great technology that opens up focal plane cameras to flash at higher speeds in specific situations (e.g. close up portraits you can shoot at 1/4000th flash sync and overwhelm the sun if you choose) but it reduces the effective power output of the flash considerably, and is rarely useful in the use case of architectural interiors.

    Quote Originally Posted by JaapD View Post
    - vibration: considerable => I question this. In many cases with DSLRs mirror slap and shutter vibration are mixed up. Here we only have risk of shutter vibration.
    Yes, some people mix those two up. However, either can be problematic.

    FPS vibration is most problematic within a "bounce" range, typically around 1/8th of a second plus or minus 1-2 stops. It is, for example, very rarely problematic at 1/125th or at 2". You can search "shutter bounce" for more information on this topic. It is typically more problematic with a lighter tripod (such as the one you might expect someone to travel with when they buy an XT motivated by its small and light form factor). It's also typically more problematic with a long lens; there are no such native lenses for the XT yet, but of course there will be in the future, so that has to be accounted for in the body design.

    Note that there are three reasons this is more of a problem in high-end medium format than in the broader market:
    - the FPS we are talking about here are for full-frame 645 and so are about twice the area and more than twice the weight, so create more vibration
    - the resolution (150mp) makes any given absolute amount of vibration/shake/bounce more visually apparent when reviewed at 100% pixel level
    - the user base here is disproportionally obsessed with image quality

    Quote Originally Posted by JaapD View Post
    - flange distance: uses up several mm => no impact in case of fully integrating it in the camera design.
    Imagine you now want to add some new accessory such as a lens adapter for other types of lenses or a tilt-swing adapter. In such cases every mm you have eaten up in fixed-cannot-remove body depth is a mm you can't use for that accessory. I would definitely acknowledge this as a lower impact than the other items listed, but it is a real impact none the less.
    Last edited by dougpeterson; 13th September 2019 at 06:20.
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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    Just a short question on warranty. Am I correct that there is no way to get more than a year even if you buy the XT and all lenses? (Over 35k) Upgrade a back to a IQ4 and an XT?

    The only way to get 5years is buy the XT lenses and a new back as a bundle, correct?

    Another point, if you now buy the XT there will be no chance for extended warranty on any new lenses (40/90..) correct?

    This is the way Phase One has set it up yes. I would have vastly preferred a 5-year warranty myself. But speak with your dealer, as we (DT) certainly have creative workarounds for this as needed and I imagine other good dealers will as well. Notably, the lenses/shutters here are derived from the industrial/aerial line where cameras are put through hell and back in terms of environment, shot count, and vibration, so I would not expect many failures (that said, the only way to know for sure how many last 5-10 years is to wait 5-10 years).
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    Moved this post to a new thread. Thanks.
    Last edited by algrove; 13th September 2019 at 06:21.

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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    I've owned the Alpa FPS for few years. I can confirm it has no shutter vibration issue.
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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post
    2. A lot of moving around and insurance/shipping costs. These lenses are not cheap and they are delicate. Shipping example, for a Arca user: User to dealer, Dealer to P1, P1 to Rodenstock to remove Copal and add X shutter. Rodenstock back to P1 for testing, P1 back to dealer, dealer back to customer. Lots of shipping, and overseas, customs, insurance, etc.
    The shipment chain you pose is speculative, and I suspect the reality will be a lot more streamlined. But I too am speculating as the method/manner/pricing of that service has not been finalized, and will not be for many months.

    That said, the LENSES really are not that delicate. They are used in aircraft flying at altitude through all sorts of weather*. The amount of vibration here can be quite severe.

    The COPAL SHUTTER is pretty delicate, especially when a lens with a heavy front element was mounted (e.g. 32HR).

    The X-Shutter was developed for that aerial/industrial and for these specific lenses (including the big heavy front element 32HR). I expect it to be extremely durable during shipment, travel, and use.

    Of course, only time will tell, but there is every reason to expect that not to be a problem.

    *Typically in these applications they aren't taking pictures while flying through crap weather, but it will often be experienced on the way to or from an area that is not, or unexpectedly during.


    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post
    (BTW, never been mentioned if the lens has the Rodenstock aperture only design or if the shutter has aperture control like a copal).
    Complete electronic aperture control. That will come in handy for metadata, lens correction, remote control, bracketing, live view (which you can set to open to full aperture, or remain stopped down, when entering live view) etc.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    Quote Originally Posted by Landscapelover View Post
    I've owned the FPS for few years. I can confirm the Alpa FPS has no shutter vibration issue.
    Put on a long lens, mount to a normal travel-sized tripod, and shoot at 1/8th with the focal plane. Then repeat on ES. Post the resulting comparison at 100%.

    Alpa makes great cameras, but they can't rewrite physics (nor can anyone else). Moving mechanical shutters, whether in the XF, a Sony, or Alpa cause vibration and focal plane shutters cause more vibration than leaf shutters.

    What you mean is that you've never had a practical problem with vibration given what and how you shoot (length length, shutter speeds, tripod size/weight). That's the feedback I'd echo from our XF users as well as the testing I did with the Arca Swiss FPS unit; it's only problematic in narrow ranges of use cases. For many (probably most) users it may never once be a problem or only occasionally a minor annoyance. For still others it may be a significant limitation.

    I was asked why a leaf shutter was used rather than a focal plane shutter and I listed the technical advantages* of a leaf shutter which includes that they don't cause as much vibration. This really is not a controversial statement.

    *as well as the two advantages of an focal plane shutter that I can think of
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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    Doug...

    I really appreciate your information you've provided us. It's very helpful.

    There is no question. To me, the XT is almost perfect (except having "no tilt" and "no tilt") and I want one. I'm glad P1 shows commitment to the tech cam.

    The Alpa FPS is far from perfect but works for my landscape photography. It's too big and heavy compared to the tech cam and XT.

    If I don't own the IQ4150, XF and tech cam, the price point of the IQ4150 and XT set is very attractive (for new owners). However, the cost of upgrading from previous P1 owner is very painful.

    I just hope P1 can provide the previous owner of IQ and XF attractive upgrade paths.

    Otherwise, P1 may lost the current royal customers like me. I guess most people who own IQ4150 will not buy the XT due to the high price and lack of attractive upgrade path. I also think some people who own the IQ will switch to Fuji or Hasselblad. Once they switch, they would never come back again.

    To me, no questions, the XT is very attractive system. However, the entry point for previous P1 owner is very steep.

    I completely understand your situation. Without help from P1, dealers can't do anything that much because it will eat up your profit.


    Thanks

    Pramote

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    Put on a long lens, mount to a normal travel-sized tripod, and shoot at 1/8th with the focal plane. Then repeat on ES. Post the resulting comparison at 100%.

    Alpa makes great cameras, but they can't rewrite physics (nor can anyone else). Moving mechanical shutters, whether in the XF, a Sony, or Alpa cause vibration and focal plane shutters cause more vibration than leaf shutters.

    What you mean is that you've never had a practical problem with vibration given what and how you shoot (length length, shutter speeds, tripod size/weight). That's the feedback I'd echo from our XF users as well as the testing I did with the Arca Swiss FPS unit; it's only problematic in narrow ranges of use cases. For many (probably most) users it may never once be a problem or only occasionally a minor annoyance. For still others it may be a significant limitation.

    I was asked why a leaf shutter was used rather than a focal plane shutter and I listed the technical advantages* of a leaf shutter which includes that they don't cause as much vibration. This really is not a controversial statement.

    *as well as the two advantages of an focal plane shutter that I can think of
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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    Quote Originally Posted by Landscapelover View Post
    I guess most people who own IQ4150 will not buy the XT due to the high price and lack of attractive upgrade path. I also think some people who own the IQ will switch to Fuji or Hasselblad. Once they switch, they would never come back again. Pramote
    Pramote--another mind provoking post.

    It is incredible the amount of choices MF shooters currently have. Enter the XT.

    Once one has been on the Phase upgrade path for some time, it behoves one to carefully analyze where we want to go in the future in light of what we do with our images. I like to print. When the IQ4150 came out trade in values for IQ3100 models hovered around 50% of original price even with just 1 year of use and 4000 captures. Is this acceptable? What we can afford financially is a big factor plus what we feel is good for our photography and how we use our photographic tools. What is the end game?

    As a non-professional have I hit the limits of my personal losses per upgrade with zero payback and a financial black hole? I was willing to keep my IQ4150 nearly forever based on P1 comments about future FW upgrades and new tools for use with my Alpa STC until the XT was announced. I would never have thought about selling my IQ4 until all this XT input and varied comments from like minded enthusiasts. Thank you all for getting me out of a blind rut.

    So it appears Alpa users are boxed out of this Cambo based XT unless they want to loose big with trade ins. Cambo owners are lucky and over time this kit will fill out with more lens choices for other than extremely wide or 70mm (about 45mm in 35 equivalent terms) needs. Trading in an Alpa kit is highly cost prohibitive all while loosing tilt capabilities. I always imaged by Alpa kit would hover around values we had at the end of August, but early September brought change in the form of the XT.

    No doubt the best image quality comes from the IQ4 today. But do I need one for my type of photography? That is the million dollar question. I seem to make likeable images with Leica M cameras, old Hasselblad cameras with old Phase backs, Pentax 645Z cameras, Phase XF cameras with IQ3100 DB, Fuji XT-2 cameras, Fuji GFX cameras and an Alpa STC camera with IQ3100 and IQ4150 DB. I am too old for stupid bragging rights ever since I owned the world's fastest sports car (until the Bugatti quad turbo came out) light weight model for 25 years. Owning it was one thing, but how I used it was more important in the end. That created respect. Sorry for the car analogy, but since an IQ4150 costs $50k without camera and lenses, it is the value of a decent car in financial terms since to make it viable one has to spend another 50% or $75k total.

    Enter Fuji 100MP camera. It has more than what most would want in a MF camera today. Is the IQ coming out of that beast enough for me? Based on price alone some might think not, but Fuji is setting the MF world upside down with price and features. I have spoiled myself with my Phase gear over the years and stepping down in IQ might be a downer, but at least an other MF tool can still help me create images. Can I create satisfactory captures and images with a lesser camera than the Alpa/IQ4? I believe so. Will a tilt/shift G lens be offered by Fuji? Have I answered my inner questions? Not yet.
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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    Lou,

    It's never been a better time to be a photographer.

    I don't think you will be happy using anything else besides your alpa and IQ4 achromatic. The Fuji GFX 100 may give you great prints but "the journey is more enjoyable than the destination". The process of tech cam is very meditating.

    It's not the XF that keep me upgrading the IQ, it's the tech cam.

    I am actually glad that Phase One shows commitment to the tech cam & landscape photography and stays competitive with the Fuji and Hasselblad. It's a huge step. I am quite sure, eventually, they will look at the price and want us back.

    I'd like to have it. However, without a good upgrade path, I probably will stick with the tech cam. I'm not in hurry. I can wait until next year and see the price will be more attractive.

    Don't let the XT annoys you. Look on the bright side, you can tilt and shift more than the XT and save some battery life.

    Best,

    Pramote
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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    I'd welcome any factual corrections, and would gladly incorporate them into my post to ensure it is accurate. But I suspect you're misreading my post, as I'm very confident in each of these points.

    Note that "FPS" here stands for "Focal Plane Shutter" generically rather than for the "Alpa FPS" which I only addressed in one point on my post (about weight/size/cable/battery in their specific implementation of a FPS). Noting the disadvantages of focal plane shutters applies broadly across a variety of solutions including the Hartblei, the Arca Swiss FPS that was abandoned, and even the XF.
    Educate yourself.

    https://www.alpa.ch/en/article/alpa-12-fps

    Read it. All of it, and the linked documents. Then you can come back and list for us the wide range of lenses that the FPS can electronically control.

    If you donít want to do that, so be it.

    Sowing FUD is not a smart sales strategy when you donít understand the capabilities of the competition.

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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    Put on a long lens, mount to a normal travel-sized tripod...
    This is such nonsense. You’re basically telling someone to use a poor combination of gear.

    And define “long”.

    I’m pretty confident in stating that there isn’t a “long” lens that can be successfully mounted and used on the XT that can’t also be successfully mounted and used on the FPS.

    But the opposite is far from the case.

    I could list dozens of “long” lenses that can be successfully used on the FPS that cannot be used on the XT. Many of them you can also use with movements with the right combination of kit.

    Personally I have successfully used Canon lenses from the 200/2 right up to the 1200/5.6 on the FPS. With, of course, electronic control of aperture.

    I also shot with the Jonel 200 (that’s 5080mm focal length) mounted on the FPS.

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