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Thread: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

  1. #351
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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    Since we are in the tech camera realm now, question in making it into a view camera of sorts:
    How is the HDMI output in the last firmware?
    Can one review last-shot images, does focus peaking work?
    Can I use the new sync cable with the touch the screen shutter to wake-up mode (in other tech cameras).
    It was all a bit iffy in earlier releases.

    *another thread suggests that there is still no way to 'playback' to HDMI out. Some of the missing "features" on the iq4 are just mind boggling. Do you all know if there is an eta on this? I know they are working on mobile solutions but this seems quite the gap in HDMI functionality.

    best,
    d

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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    Quote Originally Posted by RLB View Post
    Recently picked up a used mint 35mm BR for $3,500. I thought that was a great price. Dealers selling "certified" version of the lens for $4,900., new $6,800.

    R
    I figured that would be the case. I recently bought a mint 120BR and a 40-80BR and got really good deals on them from private parties. Lenses are pretty much brand new and saved a bit over $7K for both (from brand new list prices), so as Graham said, it is probably something that is worth keeping forever, or until they crap out.

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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    It’s no news that the current used market for Phase One is crap. Everyone should know it! There is no value left. Way to many offers and not enough buyers. People are getting out and switching to Fuji. If your are a little patient you can pick up a IQ 3100 for under 15k!... it’s a back that was over 40k...

    Don’t get me wrong I love my Phase One stuff and it all made money for me, but don’t buy anything Phase one sales and expect it to keep real value....
    Christopher Hauser
    http://www.chauser.eu
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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    No kidding. I remember when they wanted $25K PLUS my IQ180 to upgrade to the IQ3100. The only Phase back I'd ever buy is a used one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    It’s no news that the current used market for Phase One is crap. Everyone should know it! There is no value left. Way to many offers and not enough buyers. People are getting out and switching to Fuji. If your are a little patient you can pick up a IQ 3100 for under 15k!... it’s a back that was over 40k...

    Don’t get me wrong I love my Phase One stuff and it all made money for me, but don’t buy anything Phase one sales and expect it to keep real value....

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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    Quote Originally Posted by pinktank View Post
    Since we are in the tech camera realm now, question in making it into a view camera of sorts:
    How is the HDMI output in the last firmware?
    Can one review last-shot images, does focus peaking work?
    Can I use the new sync cable with the touch the screen shutter to wake-up mode (in other tech cameras).
    It was all a bit iffy in earlier releases.

    *another thread suggests that there is still no way to 'playback' to HDMI out. Some of the missing "features" on the iq4 are just mind boggling. Do you all know if there is an eta on this? I know they are working on mobile solutions but this seems quite the gap in HDMI functionality.

    best,
    d

    The 3100 never had HDMI for image review/output, so I don't figure the IQ4 all either. It's a huge over sight and IMO should be part of the design as I am sure I will hear that due to the "nature of design" HDMI output for image review can't be done. As I have stated many times it's a common feature on other cameras that have HDMI output, Nikon, Sony, Fuji, etc. So far the only real IMPROVEMENT with HDMI over the 3100 is that with the small blue arrows on the back's LCD you can now move around the external monitor when the Live View image is zoomed to 100%, which was not possible on 3100 (should have been).

    You can either wake up the back via touch screen or two part cable as there is no zero latency, (and probably never will be, see post in this thread).

    For me in regards to the XT, the fact that photographer is tied to the IQ4 LCD for all work is very limiting. I quickly gave up trying to hand hold Live View on the 3100, it's impossible to focus as any movement at all blurs the Live View. AF with XF could be easily done hand held within certain shutter speeds. The LCD is now dated when compared to more modern screens and as pointed out the HDMI support is only for Live View. I guess you could attach a screen like the Atomos to the flash bracket.

    With the XT, no AF, so you are MF only, relying on Live View on a tiny screen where you will have to be on a tripod to really make sure you are in focus, and if a EVF module was available it would just mirror the issues so MF would still be difficult, next to impossible without a tripod. Once you have focus set, you could move off tripod and hand hold, but that's a bit cumbersome to me.

    Paul C

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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    To further the point about relying on live view for all focusing. Most of the time I’m between 8-11 and I have front to back focus, and I know my hyperfocal, so I usually set it and forget it.

    If the XT is going to be used in any dynamic sort of situation and you are constantly checking liveview - any weight you’ve saved in the body you’ve doubled in the batteries you’ll have to carry. Live view being on is like watching the gas gauge after someone cut the fuel lines.

    If the XT is the preamble to a bunch of accessory/firmware/QoL/etc. upgrades for the 4150, then hooray for everyone.



    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post
    The 3100 never had HDMI for image review/output, so I don't figure the IQ4 all either. It's a huge over sight and IMO should be part of the design as I am sure I will hear that due to the "nature of design" HDMI output for image review can't be done. As I have stated many times it's a common feature on other cameras that have HDMI output, Nikon, Sony, Fuji, etc. So far the only real IMPROVEMENT with HDMI over the 3100 is that with the small blue arrows on the back's LCD you can now move around the external monitor when the Live View image is zoomed to 100%, which was not possible on 3100 (should have been).

    You can either wake up the back via touch screen or two part cable as there is no zero latency, (and probably never will be, see post in this thread).

    For me in regards to the XT, the fact that photographer is tied to the IQ4 LCD for all work is very limiting. I quickly gave up trying to hand hold Live View on the 3100, it's impossible to focus as any movement at all blurs the Live View. AF with XF could be easily done hand held within certain shutter speeds. The LCD is now dated when compared to more modern screens and as pointed out the HDMI support is only for Live View. I guess you could attach a screen like the Atomos to the flash bracket.

    With the XT, no AF, so you are MF only, relying on Live View on a tiny screen where you will have to be on a tripod to really make sure you are in focus, and if a EVF module was available it would just mirror the issues so MF would still be difficult, next to impossible without a tripod. Once you have focus set, you could move off tripod and hand hold, but that's a bit cumbersome to me.

    Paul C

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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    It’s no news that the current used market for Phase One is crap. Everyone should know it! There is no value left. Way to many offers and not enough buyers. People are getting out and switching to Fuji. If your are a little patient you can pick up a IQ 3100 for under 15k!... it’s a back that was over 40k...

    Don’t get me wrong I love my Phase One stuff and it all made money for me, but don’t buy anything Phase one sales and expect it to keep real value....
    Is the same with all other gear, but more dramatic with Phase as it is costs more money. If wanted to retain value I would buy real estate or collectible cars. It is what it is and I choose not to find it way to annoying.

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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    At this juncture in the discussion it probably makes sense to state this:

    If the XT had 20mm movements in every direction, and had the capability to tilt, it would make for a very attractive and compelling solution.
    Yes very true, but it doesn't. Why would I, as a built environment and landscape photographer be interested in a technical camera solution that doesn't have tilt and is very limited in movements? It just doesn't make sense. The sexy new features mean nothing if the most important functionality is underwhelming.

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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mexecutioner View Post
    Is the same with all other gear, but more dramatic with Phase as it is costs more money. If wanted to retain value I would buy real estate or collectible cars. It is what it is and I choose not to find it way to annoying.
    As I said I don’t mind it as it does a great job. I just think it’s getting to sell new XF lenses at 5k+ If you can pick them up used for a lot less. Especially as their still is quite a sample variation.

    Back to the topic. The XT might not be perfect, but it looks like it’s fun to use. So I am excited try it out. At the end of the day a camera has to add value / make money for me as a business.
    Christopher Hauser
    http://www.chauser.eu

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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    At this juncture in the discussion it probably makes sense to state this:

    If the XT had 20mm movements in every direction, and had the capability to tilt, it would make for a very attractive and compelling solution.
    Yes that's true. In terms of serious technical camera functionality, the XT's lack of movements and no tilt just doesn't stack up for me as a landscape and built environment photographer. I don't particularly care about new features if the most important functions are inadequate to do the job properly.

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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mexecutioner View Post
    Is the same with all other gear, but more dramatic with Phase as it is costs more money. If wanted to retain value I would buy real estate or collectible cars. It is what it is and I choose not to find it way to annoying.
    Whilst this may be true - it's within Phase's control to keep residuals up on older backs, and it's their decision to allow prices to fall off the cliff which is annoying and results in me being reluctant to sink future money into the system.

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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    Quote Originally Posted by Massive Si View Post
    Whilst this may be true - it's within Phase's control to keep residuals up on older backs, and it's their decision to allow prices to fall off the cliff which is annoying and results in me being reluctant to sink future money into the system.
    The weird thing with the IQ3 100 situation is that, if what multiple sources are saying privately is correct, it is worth more - substantially more - in value second hand as a trade-in for the IQ4 150 ($25k) than dealers are selling it for new (well under $20k).

    That it has taken me 6 months to find a buyer for my IQ3 100 (with around 4 years worth of transferable warranty still attached to the back), is illuminating.

    As I posted previously, my suspicion is that following the launch of the Fuji, Phase One are having to offer massive discounts in order to shift IQ4 150’s.

    It seems that finally I have a buyer for mine at $13,750. That the “value” of the back against a trade-up to the IQ4 150 is $25k, and the buyer is looking to actually use the back rather than use it as a trade-in, gives some indication as to the substantial discounts that just be available for anyone contemplating purchasing an XT system.

    Kind regards,


    Gerald.
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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    It’s no news that the current used market for Phase One is crap. Everyone should know it! There is no value left. Way to many offers and not enough buyers. People are getting out and switching to Fuji. If your are a little patient you can pick up a IQ 3100 for under 15k!... it’s a back that was over 40k...

    Don’t get me wrong I love my Phase One stuff and it all made money for me, but don’t buy anything Phase one sales and expect it to keep real value....

    Maybe now is the time to buy used gear at a great discount? And if you currently own the gear and it does what you want is its value in $ relevant? I'd argue no.

    Modern camera gear is not, never will be a "investment" in the sense escalation of value. It is only an investment in the sense that it is simply a "consumable" tool that allows one to make a product (the image or print) that could be sold to raise revenue. Think that new Porsche you purchased wont drop like a rock in value the minute your drive it off the dealers lot?
    In 95% of the cases it will, and the modern electronic photo gear is no different. We should all stop cryin in our Ale about not being able to change that reality.

    Robert
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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    Quote Originally Posted by Massive Si View Post
    Whilst this may be true - it's within Phase's control to keep residuals up on older backs, and it's their decision to allow prices to fall off the cliff which is annoying and results in me being reluctant to sink future money into the system.
    I respectfully disagree. P1 can't possibly "control" the entire range of second hand value in high end digital any more that one can escape a Black Hole, taxes or death. There are too many factors involved that P1 has no control of.

    We all regret buying into something at what we learn later may have been the wrong timing...that's what it appears many are complaining about. If you purchased an IQ3100 just prior to the intro of the IQ4 one may feel this way. Of course P1 was offering generous discounts then too, and the IQ4 was really no secret at that point other than the exact release date. When I purchased the IQ180 new it was at end of life as there were generous discounts offered: free Mamiya 645 body, free 80mm, and TWO other free lenses...my choice. I used that set up for 5 years and when the IQ100 was introduced I held off even though the CMOS had much more to offer the resolution jump from 80 to 100 was minimal. I'm glad I did as the IQ4 is fantastic (and will be more so soon with more features). I was also offered 50% more than market value for my IQ180. Did I "loose" $25k over what I paid for the back 6 years ago? Yes, but made far more than that in profits through its use. Consumable is the word of the day and future, not investment.


    R
    Last edited by RLB; 21st September 2019 at 14:17.

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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    Likely one reason the backs drop in value so fast is the obviously very large mark ups by dealers over what it cost them. And also a big reason why the sales people here so vigorously defend the new products
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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    Quote Originally Posted by DougDolde View Post
    Likely one reason the backs drop in value so fast is the obviously very large mark ups by dealers over what it cost them. And also a big reason why the sales people here so vigorously defend the new products
    Speculation or actual knowledge?

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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    Quote Originally Posted by RLB View Post
    Speculation or actual knowledge?
    The mark up is obvious. You can't discount something $20k without a significant markup.

    Also remember the 100mp sensor that came out.

    Hasselblad's offering was 50% of Phases and that included a camera body.

    There is plenty of mark up in phase offerings.

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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    Quote Originally Posted by Boinger View Post
    The mark up is obvious. You can't discount something $20k without a significant markup.

    Also remember the 100mp sensor that came out.

    Hasselblad's offering was 50% of Phases and that included a camera body.

    There is plenty of mark up in phase offerings.

    If I follow you correctly your stating a P1 dealer offered $20k discount off MSRP?

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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    Quote Originally Posted by RLB View Post
    If I follow you correctly your stating a P1 dealer offered $20k discount off MSRP?
    I mean for trade-in.

    For example I traded in my H6d back and got around $22k off. They took only the back and not the camera and they stated they are going to "destroy" it.

    Whether that is true or not who knows. But the back only without the body is not that useful. So assuming they do destroy the back then the mark up is quite significant.

    I have also been offered a discount with a db that was only worth around $4k on ebay.

    So you can clearly see the mark up is significant.

    In addition to my point the h6d rival when they had an equivalent sensor was 50% of the cost of the phase. I have to assume they are making some money on that.

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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    Quote Originally Posted by RLB View Post
    If I follow you correctly your stating a P1 dealer offered $20k discount off MSRP?
    [edit having seen Boinger’s post immediately above this one - for clarity, I’m talking about potential discount when paying cash]

    I don’t see why that would be beyond the realms of possibility. Certainly $15-20k must be in the right ballpark. Maybe $20k is pushing it a little, but time it right at the end of the quarter when folks have their targets to meet, and it could well be within your grasp.

    That not a single person buying an IQ4 150 - where the IQ3 100 is “worth” $25k in trade-in value - approached me with an offer to buy my back to use in trade, is the key here to understanding just how big the mark-ups are.

    It was on offer for $13,750 since July (and at $14,500 for a month prior to that).

    That clearly indicates that a Phase One dealer is in a position to offer, at the absolute minimum, an immediate $11,250 discount on an IQ4 100 before even starting to negotiate.

    And that’s just the back. Now think about this...

    Base price for the IQ4 150 is $47k. List price for the kit is $52k.

    So that’s $5k for an XF and any lens you want. Potential “value” of $15k ($8k for the XF with viewfinder and $7k for the lens).

    Spend another $5k for an effective immediate discount of $10k.

    Now this is stretching things a little, but one way of looking at it is that right there is a $21,250 discount available on the list price of the individual components if purchased separately. Without ANY negotiation needed on the part of the customer.

    Kind regards,


    Gerald.

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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    [edit having seen Boinger’s post immediately above this one - for clarity, I’m talking about potential discount when paying cash]

    I don’t see why that would be beyond the realms of possibility. Certainly $15-20k must be in the right ballpark. Maybe $20k is pushing it a little, but time it right at the end of the quarter when folks have their targets to meet, and it could well be within your grasp.

    That not a single person buying an IQ4 150 - where the IQ3 100 is “worth” $25k in trade-in value - approached me with an offer to buy my back to use in trade, is the key here to understanding just how big the mark-ups are.

    It was on offer for $13,750 since July (and at $14,500 for a month prior to that).

    That clearly indicates that a Phase One dealer is in a position to offer, at the absolute minimum, an immediate $11,250 discount on an IQ4 100 before even starting to negotiate.

    And that’s just the back. Now think about this...

    Base price for the IQ4 150 is $47k. List price for the kit is $52k.

    So that’s $5k for an XF and any lens you want. Potential “value” of $15k ($8k for the XF with viewfinder and $7k for the lens).

    Spend another $5k for an effective immediate discount of $10k.

    Now this is stretching things a little, but one way of looking at it is that right there is a $21,250 discount available on the list price of the individual components if purchased separately. Without ANY negotiation needed on the part of the customer.

    Kind regards,


    Gerald.
    Yes that is one way to look at it.

    So to clarify a little bit more the discounts I was talking about are discounts for the DB only.

    XF was not part of the deal.

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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    I’m not a dealer so can’t speak to current discounts but the number I shared for IQ3-100 was up until end of September. It might be completely different now.

    It was good enough for me to trade to stay in the latest MFDB eco-system with the new Infinity platform vs having a back that would relatively plummet in value, even though still basically a state of the art back vs the crop sensor integrated MF camera systems.
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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    Most trade-ins (at least for Phase One; I imagine for others as well) are facilitated via a manufacturer program, with the intention of providing a nod to and path forward to existing owners.

    Most of the time the trade-in values we can offer would not be possible if we as a dealer were relying on our retail margin.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183
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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    Doug,

    Absolutely! Same with many other ‘upgrades’ outside of cameras/backs etc.

    Manufacturers often have incentives to keep up to date that the private or retail market cannot compete with. The same thing happens with high end vehicles In my experience.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    Lack of pricing transparency is always a negative - one 'favoured client's' subsidy is another client's loss.
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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    Doug,

    Absolutely! Same with many other ‘upgrades’ outside of cameras/backs etc.

    Manufacturers often have incentives to keep up to date that the private or retail market cannot compete with. The same thing happens with high end vehicles In my experience.
    Indeed, but the focus here is the difference between “real world” and “trade-in” value of an old back, and what that implies about what cash discount is available for purchasers of new backs.

    Obviously this is something that is very fluid over time, presumably depending on both dealer and mothership sales targets, but it does seem to be the case that cash discounts of at least $12k, and possibly quite a bit more, would be available easily on an IQ4 150.

    Kind regards,


    Gerald.

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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Lack of pricing transparency is always a negative - one 'favoured client's' subsidy is another client's loss.
    It also has to do with your ability to negotiate, how informed you are about the current values, promos and trade-ins. I know people that paid $98K for the same spec'd BMW X5M and others that paid $110K. The car MSRP was $121K with the same options. How did they get it for $98K? Timing, being patient, buying it at the right time of the year, having a relationship with the dealer, using whatever promotion they took advantage off and there are also loyalty incentives to be had. And I am sure that the dealer that sold the car for $98K didn't tell the next buyer: "Hey the last one I sold like this I took off $20K, so I will give you the same deal, just because". They need to make money and be profitable, what is wrong with that?

    If uninformed people walk into the dealership they will most likely spend more money than the people that spend time in the car forum sharing information about the quotes they have and comparing deals with other forum members. They will know how much they can get the car for and how much they should pay.

    If you wanted to buy a new release Rolex you would find the exact same thing, not everyone pays the same.

    It happens with maney high value items, it is not a subsidy / loss thing. It is a simple reality that one should be aware of.

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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mexecutioner View Post
    They need to make money and be profitable, what is wrong with that?
    Beyond being a market failure, in technical terms, nothing. But it is also why I do not trust dealers. I avoid luxury goods at all costs, no pun intended.
    Will

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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    Beyond being a market failure, in technical terms, nothing. But it is also why I do not trust dealers. I avoid luxury goods at all costs, no pun intended.
    It’s interesting though how much phase backs lose value compared to Leica gear which tends to lose a lot less value - repaired M9 monochroms still go for ~3.5K in good condition, which is about half what they where new, so 50% in 7 years.

    Meanwhile IQ3100s are selling for 10K on eBay, which is 80% depreciated in two years!

    Both are luxuries of course, but that doesn’t mean they have to lose value like a pet rock.

    I wouldn’t be surprised if Phase One moves to a rental only company like Arri does for their Alexa 65.

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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    Quote Originally Posted by buildbot View Post
    It’s interesting though how much phase backs lose value compared to Leica gear which tends to lose a lot less value - repaired M9 monochroms still go for ~3.5K in good condition, which is about half what they where new, so 50% in 7 years.

    Meanwhile IQ3100s are selling for 10K on eBay, which is 80% depreciated in two years!

    Both are luxuries of course, but that doesn’t mean they have to lose value like a pet rock.

    I wouldn’t be surprised if Phase One moves to a rental only company like Arri does for their Alexa 65.

    I've read through all of these concerns about value of the gear and have the following observations:

    1) Some are far more worried about the perceived value of their gear than actually shooting with it.

    2) More speculation about market trends and values then a henge fund party



    Certainly there are forces driving down resale value for the IQ3100:

    -Release of the IQ4

    -Release of the Fuji 100mp

    -People realizing that there is a tiny market for Phase gear when trying to resell it. Supply and demand.

    -As in the stock market and betting; timing is everything. Those discounts offered to late product life IQ3100 buyers got when purchasing is being realized now on the "back end".
    One can't win buying any product new late in its life cycle and then flipping it shortly thereafter without expecting a loss.

    IF I were in the market for a P1 back (I'm not since I traded up to the IQ4 from the IQ180) I'd be all over the IQ3100 at the values some are willing to let them go for. It is as one would say in stocks an Realestate, a Buyers Market. When I traded my IQ180, P1 (not the dealer) offered me 50% more than market value, and while not huge it was a good deal, so I accepted knowing I'd never get more for the 180. Its my understanding that there were generous offers for IQ3100 owners to trade up to the IQ4...if there are still around and you want to sell out I'd consider it strongly or simply be happy with what you have, the IQ3100 is a fantastic DB.

    Father Guido Sarducci's lesson on Economics: Supply and Demand. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZ6qMrVEdHY


    Robert
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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post
    Also a bit sad to see a marketing ploy with the 24mm used for shift
    Especially since they knew, or should have known, this to be misleading. 24mm movement on each side would allow for stitching (another issue whether practical) but with just 12mm not even worth trying.

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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    Quote Originally Posted by buildbot View Post
    I wouldn’t be surprised if Phase One moves to a rental only company like Arri does for their Alexa 65.
    I am sure that there are many who just rent a P1 if they have a job or client that requires it.

    But I think now with all the alternatives, like the Fuji GFX 100, it will rather go the other way.

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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDude View Post
    Especially since they knew, or should have known, this to be misleading. 24mm movement on each side would allow for stitching (another issue whether practical) but with just 12mm not even worth trying.
    I have agreed I miss interpreted Doug’s wording. The listing of 24mm total shift is the same that is used by other tech companies.

    The total shift of 12mm for me is not a deal breaker as no Rodenstock wide I have can really go past that amount with image quality. Even the 40mm starts to show issues with CA and softness.

    Cost of switching and no tilt are issues.

    Paul C
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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mexecutioner View Post
    It also has to do with your ability to negotiate, how informed you are about the current values, promos and trade-ins. I know people that paid $98K for the same spec'd BMW X5M and others that paid $110K. The car MSRP was $121K with the same options. How did they get it for $98K? Timing, being patient, buying it at the right time of the year, having a relationship with the dealer, using whatever promotion they took advantage off and there are also loyalty incentives to be had. And I am sure that the dealer that sold the car for $98K didn't tell the next buyer: "Hey the last one I sold like this I took off $20K, so I will give you the same deal, just because". They need to make money and be profitable, what is wrong with that?

    If uninformed people walk into the dealership they will most likely spend more money than the people that spend time in the car forum sharing information about the quotes they have and comparing deals with other forum members. They will know how much they can get the car for and how much they should pay.

    If you wanted to buy a new release Rolex you would find the exact same thing, not everyone pays the same.

    It happens with maney high value items, it is not a subsidy / loss thing. It is a simple reality that one should be aware of.
    What exactly is it about price transparency that you don't understand?

    Thanks for' schooling me' on dealing all that is required to buy something from Phase One- I have no interest what so ever playing games like that - life is too short to waste so much time begging for deals or becoming friends with intermediaries - my time is far more valuable than that!

    Good luck to Phase One and all its happy clientele.
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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    What exactly is it about price transparency that you don't understand?

    Thanks for' schooling me' on dealing all that is required to buy something from Phase One- I have no interest what so ever playing games like that - life is too short to waste so much time begging for deals or becoming friends with intermediaries - my time is far more valuable than that!

    Good luck to Phase One and all its happy clientele.
    I understand very well that there is not such a thing as price transparency, as I illustrated. Fortunately you don't have to worry about that and all is well.

    My apologies my post made you upset.

    Have a great week!

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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    Was able to get my hands on an XT while at my dealer last week and it is indeed a nice little camera system. I didn't do any detailed testing, just fiddled around a little bit. It was my first time using a production IQ4 so that took some getting used to. Some observations:

    - Integrated dovetail and 90 degree rotation is very slick.
    - new X shutter seems to be quite rugged and built very well. Fit and finish matches the rest of the product quite well.
    - The whole camera system, with 32mm HR lens mounted feels nice, compact, and balanced. I've never put the 32 HR on my Arca RM3Di so I can't compare the two.
    - The handle seems to be about the right size and depth for my hand, and I had no problem taking a few hand held shots. This is obviously not the primary function of the camera, but I find myself using the RM3Di for handheld shots semi frequently, either as a quick preview before setting up the tripod or for some snaps as I walk around (usually if I have my tech cam I won't have any other "real" camera). I find the handle on the RM3Di quite terrible and insufficient to even carry the camera with.
    - The IQ4 firmware needs some more work to integrate with the XT (no surprise there). Some nice touches (readouts to the .5mm of current shift and rise positions are on the display), however the shutter speed is poorly implemented; when set to "LS Priority" it won't let you select a shutter speed faster than 1/1000. You have to go into the menu and select "ES Only" to gain faster shutter speeds. This is counter to how the XF works... when set to "LS Priority" you can select faster shutter speeds than the LS support and it will automatically switch shutter modes for you. If it is going to behave this way please get rid of the word "Priority" and call it what it is; either "LS" or "ES"
    - Other than the confusing "Shutter mode", I found the IQ4 has taken some backwards steps in terms of interface usability, or perhaps I just need to get used to the differences between my IQ250 and it. It felt like things were either harder to find or took more steps and/or were less intuitive.
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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    Just curious, with your RM3DI do you use the handle extension? Makes a huge difference. Easily can carry it with one hand. I agree base handle is pretty useless.

    Paul C
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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    Quote Originally Posted by med View Post
    The IQ4 firmware needs some more work to integrate with the XT (no surprise there). Some nice touches (readouts to the .5mm of current shift and rise positions are on the display), however the shutter speed is poorly implemented; when set to "LS Priority" it won't let you select a shutter speed faster than 1/1000. You have to go into the menu and select "ES Only" to gain faster shutter speeds. This is counter to how the XF works... when set to "LS Priority" you can select faster shutter speeds than the LS support and it will automatically switch shutter modes for you. If it is going to behave this way please get rid of the word "Priority" and call it what it is; either "LS" or "ES"
    This will change (in a good way) for the final release.

    Quote Originally Posted by med View Post
    I found the IQ4 has taken some backwards steps in terms of interface usability, or perhaps I just need to get used to the differences between my IQ250 and it. It felt like things were either harder to find or took more steps and/or were less intuitive.
    I'd live in it for a few hours before you make up your mind one way or the other. My experience was I was disoriented for ~1 hour by some of the changes and thereafter preferred it. Of course, I'm not telling you what to think; you may hate it even more after a few hours. I'm just encouraging you to withhold judgement for a short period of usage.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post
    Just curious, with your RM3DI do you use the handle extension? Makes a huge difference. Easily can carry it with one hand. I agree base handle is pretty useless.

    Paul C
    I've been eyeballing the handle extension but have stopped short of ordering it twice. I know that tech cameras are not for the faint of wallet, but for some reason the cost of that particular accessory has given me pause! I would love to try it before buying it but your vote of confidence helps a lot. Thanks for your thoughts!
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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    I purchased mine 4 years ago, maybe 5 hard to believe. I realize the prices have gone up. But I fully agree the stock handle is a joke, and the extension should be included with the camera. You have nothing to hold with stock handle. Love the extension. Rock solid once applied.

    Paul C
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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    This will change (in a good way) for the final release.



    I'd live in it for a few hours before you make up your mind one way or the other. My experience was I was disoriented for ~1 hour by some of the changes and thereafter preferred it. Of course, I'm not telling you what to think; you may hate it even more after a few hours. I'm just encouraging you to withhold judgement for a short period of usage.
    Thanks Doug. It was certainly a fast session and I'm sure getting used to it would help. It just felt like I was fighting the interface more than I wanted to instead of just "feeling right" the first time, like what has happened for me with cameras like Nikon's Pro bodies, the Leica Q, Hasselblad H (the body anyway, I have no experience with their backs), and some recent Fujii bodies. The XF+IQ250 certainly comes close to that level, however I recall feeling like the IQ250 required some "getting used to" as well. Muscle memory is a powerful thing and retraining it takes time. This is of course more about the IQ4 than the XT specifically, but I thought I would share my observations anyway.

    Another feature that I noted as being potentially useful for the IQ4 and/or XT that could be on the roadmap for all I know, is adding the "Vibration delay" to the self timer modes from the XF. Heck the vibration analysis can be added as well for the little seismograph.

  42. #392
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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    Quote Originally Posted by med View Post
    Thanks Doug. It was certainly a fast session and I'm sure getting used to it would help. It just felt like I was fighting the interface more than I wanted to instead of just "feeling right" the first time, like what has happened for me with cameras like Nikon's Pro bodies, the Leica Q, Hasselblad H (the body anyway, I have no experience with their backs), and some recent Fujii bodies. The XF+IQ250 certainly comes close to that level, however I recall feeling like the IQ250 required some "getting used to" as well. Muscle memory is a powerful thing and retraining it takes time. This is of course more about the IQ4 than the XT specifically, but I thought I would share my observations anyway.

    Another feature that I noted as being potentially useful for the IQ4 and/or XT that could be on the roadmap for all I know, is adding the "Vibration delay" to the self timer modes from the XF. Heck the vibration analysis can be added as well for the little seismograph.
    Perhaps I am mistaken, but the vibration analysis won't be possible with the XT as the XF is performing it. I think the IQ4 does not have the sensors to do this.

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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post
    Just curious, with your RM3DI do you use the handle extension? Makes a huge difference. Easily can carry it with one hand. I agree base handle is pretty useless.

    Paul C
    I have the handle extension on both the Rm3di and the Factum and can't imagine using it without especially with a heavy lens like the 32mm Rode.

    Robert
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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mexecutioner View Post
    Perhaps I am mistaken, but the vibration analysis won't be possible with the XT as the XF is performing it. I think the IQ4 does not have the sensors to do this.
    I am sure that's what they will tell us, however the IQ4 definitely has accelerometers in it (for the level) so perhaps it is possible? I don't know enough about accelerometers to know if they are used for the XF vibration functionality or if there is a different unit in there.

    My point still stands for whatever the "Beyond Infinity" platform looks like for Phase... there are a number of XF-specific features that would be right at home on a tech camera, whether the XT or something else.
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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post
    I have agreed I miss interpreted Doug’s wording. The listing of 24mm total shift is the same that is used by other tech companies.

    The total shift of 12mm for me is not a deal breaker as no Rodenstock wide I have can really go past that amount with image quality. Even the 40mm starts to show issues with CA and softness.

    Cost of switching and no tilt are issues.

    Paul C
    I agree that clarity is always a good thing—and the fact that some misunderstood "24" to mean "±24" suggests more clarity would have been beneficial—but I remember from when I first read about the XT, somehow I never interpreted "24mm" as anything other than ±12. But I reject the notion that Phase/DT/CI were intentionally misleading or "knew, or should have known, this to be misleading," [as TheDude stated], inasmuch as other camera companies have used total shift as a metric also. For me, 24 is just barely enough, but I understand that, for others, it might not be. Maybe v2, if there ever is such a thing, will go to 20. Frankly, at these prices, it behooves us as customers to ensure we understand exactly what is being offered, and what we are getting, and to communicate with the maker when we find the product wanting [that's one of the great things about having guys like Steve and Doug here]. And to that point Paul, I agree that cost of switching and no tilt are significant factors.

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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    Quote Originally Posted by drunkenspyder View Post
    I agree that clarity is always a good thing—and the fact that some misunderstood "24" to mean "±24" suggests more clarity would have been beneficial—but I remember from when I first read about the XT, somehow I never interpreted "24mm" as anything other than ±12. But I reject the notion that Phase/DT/CI were intentionally misleading or "knew, or should have known, this to be misleading," [as TheDude stated], inasmuch as other camera companies have used total shift as a metric also.
    Some tech cameras market their products using [Total Range] and some people will assume such a spec is [+/- Distance]. Therefore my feeling was that the clearest way for DT to communicate the spec was to always provide BOTH the [Total Range] and the [+/- Distance].

    If you see a place on www.PhaseOneXT.com or www.DTCommercialPhoto.com that contains a reference to "24mm" that is not immediately followed by "+/- 12mm" please let me know so I can make sure we add it there. We (DT) had several people working on the launch materials, so I don't rule out that this was missed somewhere.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    Quote Originally Posted by med View Post
    My point still stands for whatever the "Beyond Infinity" platform looks like for Phase... there are a number of XF-specific features that would be right at home on a tech camera, whether the XT or something else.
    I'm always interested in hearing such suggestions! In addition to sharing them with your dealer, I think it would be very productive for you to list such suggestions here both because others can agree (or not) to the suggestions which is informative, and because some such ideas might have a clever or even superior "workaround" that is possible today.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    So Doug, are you suggesting that people should have a dealer?
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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    Quote Originally Posted by drunkenspyder View Post
    But I reject the notion that Phase/DT/CI were intentionally misleading or "knew, or should have known, this to be misleading," [as TheDude stated], inasmuch as other camera companies have used total shift as a metric also
    I could not find on PhaseOne website, the shift information for the XT. But giving only one number "24mm" may suggest, at least to Linhof Techno and Silvestri Flexicam users, that this means -/+ 24mm.
    ---------------------
    Linhof Techno (https://bit.ly/2mxYXw8)
    Front standard:
    Horizontal parallel shift: 10 mm left, 10 mm right
    Vertical parallel shift: 20 mm nach oben [sic]
    ...
    Rear standard:
    Vertical parallel shift: 20 mm up, 20 mm down

    Silvestri Flexicam (https://bit.ly/2me6qAe)
    Vertical shift 23 + 23mm
    Horizontal shift 15 + 15mm


    P.S. Now I found it at P1's website (https://bit.ly/2mzR0Xf). I stand corrected, it's clear that it's -/+ 12mm
    -----------------------------
    Horizontal dial
    12mm shift to the left
    12mm shift to the right
    Vertical dial
    12mm shift up
    12mm shift down
    Last edited by TheDude; 23rd September 2019 at 13:55.
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    Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDude View Post
    I could not find on PhaseOne website, the shift information for the XT. But giving only one number "24mm" may suggest, at least to Linhof Techno and Silvestri Flexicam users, that this means -/+ 24mm.
    ---------------------
    Linhof Techno (https://bit.ly/2mxYXw8)
    Front standard:
    Horizontal parallel shift: 10 mm left, 10 mm right
    Vertical parallel shift: 20 mm nach oben [sic]
    ...
    Rear standard:
    Vertical parallel shift: 20 mm up, 20 mm down

    Silvestri Flexicam (https://bit.ly/2me6qAe)
    Vertical shift 23 + 23mm
    Horizontal shift 15 + 15mm


    P.S. Now I found it at P1's website (https://bit.ly/2mzR0Xf). I stand corrected, it's clear that it's -/+ 12mm
    -----------------------------
    Horizontal dial
    12mm shift to the left
    12mm shift to the right
    Vertical dial
    12mm shift up
    12mm shift down
    Good info. As I said, I am all for clarity; I just don't think there's much evidence of any intent to mislead or recklessness with the specs.

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