The GetDPI Photography Forum
Great to see you here. Join our insightful photographic forum today and start tapping into a huge wealth of photographic knowledge. Completing our simple registration process will allow you to gain access to exclusive content, add your own topics and posts, share your work and connect with other members through your own private inbox! And don’t forget to say hi!
Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)
- Thread starter dougpeterson
- Start date
The thing I'm most interested in is the electronic shutter that's embedded in the middle of all of this. The current e shutter option (Sinar/Rodenstock) maxing out at 1/250th is not an end game. Yes it's only a stop slower than the copal shutter but we need to be thinking about being a stop or two faster. I feel like we are in transition territory. There are a lot of copal shutters out there which will leave owners stranded at some point. What are the options? It seems to me the most interesting option is not about buying into a new tech cam system...and an IQ4 which is running at north of AUD$70K. That has zero interest for me. What would have some interest is a variety of tech cam lenses and mounts running this shutter without resort to an IQ4 back. For example an Alpa mount lens mounted in this shutter and a "Silex II" or equivalent running the shutter. I also have zero interest in the kludge of a slow readout from the "e shutter" offered by a back. So a range of tech cam lenses running this shutter, in a variety of mounts, with a variety of control options. That would be a major game changer.
dougpeterson
Workshop Member
You had me worried!
But I just double checked and I was correct: both Alpa and Cambo websites lead with total movement, followed by the +\- movements which was exactly my instructions to the team here at DT (we had several people working on articles and product pages etc).
Cambo example: “Horizontal shift 40 mm (20 mm left/20 mm right)” from https://www.cambo.com/en/wide-rs-series/wrs-1600/
Alpa example: “vertical shift up to 36 mm (+/- 18 mm)“ https://www.alpa.ch/en/article/alpa-12-stc
From a technical communication point of view I firmly believe stating both values (range, then +/-) is the most clear. If you only state one or the other someone can easily misread it as the other.
If you see anywhere that we (DT) don’t do this (total range, followed by +/-) please let me know so I can correct it.
Doug.
I formally apologize. Your findings are different than I recollect. Arca has no site so it all word of mouth and it’s always been 15mm of shift for me. Cambo does show 40mm. So you are correct.
Hope this product does well.
For me cost of switching is way to high, no tilt with x shutter, and no long lens support. I also mistook the pictures of the 70 HR-W as the 138mm float. Hope phase can figure out a way to get the full line of blue ring lenses to work. But I bet the older non blue ring 240 won’t work which what mine is. I also hope Phase gets the 90 HR-SW to work in the future.
I give myself credit as many found my early predictions on a shutter model with the lenses impossible.
Paul C
I formally apologize. Your findings are different than I recollect. Arca has no site so it all word of mouth and it’s always been 15mm of shift for me. Cambo does show 40mm. So you are correct.
Hope this product does well.
For me cost of switching is way to high, no tilt with x shutter, and no long lens support. I also mistook the pictures of the 70 HR-W as the 138mm float. Hope phase can figure out a way to get the full line of blue ring lenses to work. But I bet the older non blue ring 240 won’t work which what mine is. I also hope Phase gets the 90 HR-SW to work in the future.
I give myself credit as many found my early predictions on a shutter model with the lenses impossible.
Paul C
dougpeterson
Workshop Member
Perfectly fair!
The 138HR is compatible, via Cambo mount.
From: https://www.dtcommercialphoto.com/the-phase-one-xt-image-gallery/
Kudos for the spot on prediction!
After 24hrs thought, I have to say: Meh...
This is simply a pancake tech camera, for wide angle work, manual focus, with an electronic leaf shutter replacing Copal ones.
You can get an Alpa STC (or Cambo) with the same movements -more in fact- and the exact same lenses, and attach your IQ4 to that.
you can get all that new or used for less $. And you will have many, many more lens options.
If you don't need movements, then a TC will do it to. Lighter. Cheaper, Super compact.
If you need a high speed modern shutter then an STC+Silex (or +FPS) will do that, and with far faster and/or x-long shutter options.
If you need more lenses, then Alpa FPS, with adapters can take Canon, Nikon, Rollei, Schneider, Rodenstock, Mamiya, etc... a whole world of very affordable lenses opens up.
There will not be the exact same meta-data baked into the file, but as a long time tech user, I have not missed that.
I don't get it.
They missed a trick not putting an EVF on there, using the back's HDMI out, that would have distinguished it, but right now its simply Phase's version of a pancake tech camera, with LS, and just 3 lens options. So: Meh.
This is simply a pancake tech camera, for wide angle work, manual focus, with an electronic leaf shutter replacing Copal ones.
You can get an Alpa STC (or Cambo) with the same movements -more in fact- and the exact same lenses, and attach your IQ4 to that.
you can get all that new or used for less $. And you will have many, many more lens options.
If you don't need movements, then a TC will do it to. Lighter. Cheaper, Super compact.
If you need a high speed modern shutter then an STC+Silex (or +FPS) will do that, and with far faster and/or x-long shutter options.
If you need more lenses, then Alpa FPS, with adapters can take Canon, Nikon, Rollei, Schneider, Rodenstock, Mamiya, etc... a whole world of very affordable lenses opens up.
There will not be the exact same meta-data baked into the file, but as a long time tech user, I have not missed that.
I don't get it.
They missed a trick not putting an EVF on there, using the back's HDMI out, that would have distinguished it, but right now its simply Phase's version of a pancake tech camera, with LS, and just 3 lens options. So: Meh.
I would just settle for HDMI for image review.
But you bring up a good point on EVF. Since currently you have to move around on an external HDMI monitor via the arrows on back’s LCD, better integration with either a external HDMI high nit monitor or EVF would be an interesting feature.
Still would love to see current limited HDMI support be updated for image review. Just should not be that big a deal.
Paul C
But you bring up a good point on EVF. Since currently you have to move around on an external HDMI monitor via the arrows on back’s LCD, better integration with either a external HDMI high nit monitor or EVF would be an interesting feature.
Still would love to see current limited HDMI support be updated for image review. Just should not be that big a deal.
Paul C
dougpeterson
Workshop Member
STC is a perfectly fine camera. The XT is the same price (once you account for the grip, dovetail, adapter plate which the XT includes and the STC does not) and is lighter and includes direction in both X and Y (though the STC has +/- 18mm in it's one direction vs +/- 12mm on the XT). Plus, of course the XT-only features like encoded movement for automatic lens correction.
STC + Silex is significantly more expensive, larger, heavier, has two cables and an extra battery to deal with, and does not transmit metadata, provide encoded movement, etc.
FPS is significantly more expensive, larger, heavier, has a cable and extra battery to deal with, and has a native max sync speed of just under 1/125.
The XT accepts Canon, Schneider, and Rodenstock lenses today. I agree there is great value in that the Alpa can take other lenses, and urge everyone to take this lens prioritization survey to help determined which of those lenses P1 attacks first.
Hard to miss what you haven't had. I've been using tech cameras for 12 years, all the way back to P non plus backs. It's hard to describe how much more fluid and enjoyable shooting the XT is than shooting with a traditional tech camera, especially those that require extra batteries, cables, releases etc.
I think some 2nd-screen functionality (as you describe, or via wifi, or via some other idea) would be a great idea. That they didn't have such a thing in time for the initial launch says little about whether they can/will in the future.
3 XT lenses today (with all the modern integration/features/capabilities/specs/durability/ease-of-use) but dozens of lenses that you can use the same as you can on any alpa/cambo/arca.
Perfectly fair if you find it not a good match for your needs and priorities.
After speaking with a bunch of clients yesterday and looking through who ordered and who didn't, I think it's fair to say that the XT is most exciting to three categories of people:
- Those for whom current tech cameras are too fiddly/complicated/complex/annoying with too many cables/batteries/settings/steps, but to whom the appeal of movements is strong
- Those who needed faster flash sync for mixed light (e.g. architectural interiors)
- Those who love the XF IQ4 but want something smaller for the field
- Cambo users, since this is so inter-compatible with that eco system
- Those who don't yet have a back but have been looking at the IQ4, since it's only $10k to add an XT+32HR to an IQ4 order.
If you already own a back, don't use Cambo, have no problem with complexity/cables/manual-steps, and don't need faster flash sync it's probably not nearly as exciting. Not every camera will be exciting for every person.
Specifically on this forum there are a lot of people who have already learned (and in many cases learned to love) existing tech cameras and therefore don't resonate with the ease-of-use and quality-of-life improvements the XT brings. For many of those people a system like Arca will make much more sense. Some people like to drive stick and manually tune their own engines. Some people don't. Neither are wrong.
P1 announced three things yesterday; their marketing of course emphasized the new sexy thing of the XT system, but there was also:
- New firmware coming soon including quality of life improvements for all tech cameras such as changing the shutter/iso/live-view-mode from hard buttons from within live view. On the XT this includes aperture and controls the shutter of the lens. On other tech cameras this can still control the ISO, live view mode, and sensor-based-ES shutter speed. Also a new Virtual Horizon interface and 16-bit Automated Frame Averaging, lifting the previous 14-bit limitation.
- X-Shutter which in mid-2020 will be available to all tech cameras users.
And overall the announcements (as well as our meetings with Phase One in Copenhagen) have reinforced that Phase One has a serious long-term commitment to the tech/field camera market. That means their own platform (XT), their own shutter system (X-Shutter), firmware improvements to the IQ4 (some of which are in the just announced firmware, many more to come) and software (improvements to C1 for such users). They now consider this market to be of equal importance to their continued work on the XF platform and are investing significant resources toward that end.
To me that's great news for users of all tech cameras (and especially good news for users of Cambo since that is clearly now their partner moving forward).
Last edited:
Doug,
I could respond the same way:
Alpa FPS is same price or cheaper if you include lenses.
FPS does much higher shutter speeds and much longer shutter speeds.
It is available used.
Lenses are available used.
You can use Canon, Nikon, Rollei, Contax, Mamiya, and yes Rodenstock and Schneider, and you can do it today. Not maybe in some future pipeline
FPS has 1 single cable that plugs into the back and is neatly stowed. One battery too. Done.
FPS can use the new Aperture only lens mounts. Does not need Copal.
FPS can use lenses with *no* shutter: vintage, enlarger, whatever. including the projector ones you test and promote for XF.
You can of course use ES with any and all of these cameras.
You can shift-stitch with an FPS, combined with an STC, a MAX, or even the new Pano +/- 35mm X/Y.
You can tilt-swing with an FPS and one of the above,.
You can freeze moving cars requiring 1/2000sec, if you need.
FPS has 1 shutter that works for all lenses, you do not need to buy ($) a shutter with each and every lens.
I could go on. But just to point out there's more than one way to butter your toast!
(And... Alpa was there first, by years!)
I could respond the same way:
Alpa FPS is same price or cheaper if you include lenses.
FPS does much higher shutter speeds and much longer shutter speeds.
It is available used.
Lenses are available used.
You can use Canon, Nikon, Rollei, Contax, Mamiya, and yes Rodenstock and Schneider, and you can do it today. Not maybe in some future pipeline
FPS has 1 single cable that plugs into the back and is neatly stowed. One battery too. Done.
FPS can use the new Aperture only lens mounts. Does not need Copal.
FPS can use lenses with *no* shutter: vintage, enlarger, whatever. including the projector ones you test and promote for XF.
You can of course use ES with any and all of these cameras.
You can shift-stitch with an FPS, combined with an STC, a MAX, or even the new Pano +/- 35mm X/Y.
You can tilt-swing with an FPS and one of the above,.
You can freeze moving cars requiring 1/2000sec, if you need.
FPS has 1 shutter that works for all lenses, you do not need to buy ($) a shutter with each and every lens.
I could go on. But just to point out there's more than one way to butter your toast!
(And... Alpa was there first, by years!)
You mean like they were with their 'A Series'?
dougpeterson
Workshop Member
That’s my exact point. With the A Series they tried to get away with a project that was 99% Marketing and 1% Technical work.You mean like they were with their 'A Series'?
Maybe the XT and X-Shutter are interesting for you. Maybe they are not. That depends on your needs, wants, priorities and budgets. But it’s absolutely obvious and unquestionable that it’s a real product with unique capabilities that required investment on P1’s end to bring to market; the exact opposite of the A Series. Further, based on conversations with Phase One, it’s clear this is just the first client-manifestation of that investment. They are in this for the long haul.
dougpeterson
Workshop Member
A lot of this is either factually inaccurate, or incorrectly implies the capability isn't available today on the XT platform. But you don't seem to be reading my replies before responding, or you haven't read the articles we've published about the XT (which would be understandable as we've written a ton, and you're under no obligation to read it all), or both. So I don't see much point in further back and forth as it's clear you've made your mind up.
That we agree on. There are many great cameras out there. We were already spoiled by good options, and the XT only piles on further good options.
dougpeterson
Workshop Member
Thanks Stanley!
dougpeterson
Workshop Member
I think we're confusing two separate conversations here.
In the case you provided an ES at 2s should provide nearly identical result as a mechanical one.
Alatreille presented a very compelling use case above for a situation in which 2s with an ES is fundamentally different than 2s with a mechanical shutter (timing the entrance of a moving object into the frame).
DougDolde
Well-known member
Can anyone afford this who is making a living from the primary usage, ie landscape photography ? Or is is this a camera for the rich hobbyists , the doctors, the dentists, the lawyers ? I think there are very few landscape photographers who make enough from sales to justify the over $60K cost. Think Peter Lik
Not to mention Phase One backs depreciate like a rock as soon as a better model is released
Not to mention Phase One backs depreciate like a rock as soon as a better model is released
dougpeterson
Workshop Member
Not a stupid question at all. There is no hot shoe, but you can use a sync cable to the PC port on the digital back to sync flash.
We didn't have the cold-shoe adapter on hand when we did the GIFs, but they'd go on the same port as the compendium shade is shown attaching to.
If you're using the compendium shade you can stack-attach the cold-shoe on top of that, but I find that a bit unergonomic. So I'd suggest instead the DT Dovetail With Compendium Mount for the Phase One XT that allows the compendium to be mounted via the bottom, leaving the normal accessory port and the shutter release less obfiscated.
The new feature that the XT brings to the table is an electronic shutter in lieu of the Copal shutter (which is no longer available new) that can be controlled via the IQ4 back. (No affiliation)
I think a wireless electronic shutter which could be paired to the P1 digital back would have been a more flexible solution in that it could be used with any LG style lens on any technical camera (since not requiring any physical contact between electronic shutter and digital back).
Last edited: