Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

[drunkenspyder]

I really miss that satisfying "Wack-ker-CHUNK" of the Pentax 67 mirror/shutter. By golly, you KNEW when you'd taken an exposure, and so did everyone in your zip code.

I wasted perfectly good beer snorting that one through my nose!

And the "whirrrrrrr-click" of a 1 second exposure from a mechanical Copal shutter will be gone once everything has gone electronic. These modern leaf shutter lenses just don't make the right sounds!

Matt

Yes, but the Hassy gives me so much time between images to enjoy the subtlety of that leaf shutter!

 

[mristuccia]

To be honest I'm still interested in both Doug's and Gerald's opinions. Censuring one in favour of the other is not the right way to make a point. We miss one of the sides, so there is no more value in the discussion.
Declaring a personal love or hate affair with any of the two does not help either.
I would concentrate the focus on a neutral, educated and helpful discussion of both the options put on the table. Maybe with some real proof of concept.

My 2c,
marco

 

[MGrayson]

To be honest I'm still interested in both Doug's and Gerald's opinions. Censuring one in favour of the other is not the right way to make a point. We miss one of the sides, so there is no more value in the discussion.
Declaring a personal love or hate affair with any of the two does not help either.
I would concentrate the focus on a neutral, educated and helpful discussion of both the options put on the table. Maybe with some real proof of concept.

My 2c,
marco

Did I miss a one-sided censuring? Jack told us all to play nice.

 

[narikin]

Glad I left this thread many days ago. It certainly took a weird turn!

Agree with both sides here.

Doug is a smart and hard working rep of his company and Phase One, with deep and valuable knowledge. We are lucky to have him contribute here. He has gotten a good number of people out of deep holes, so a definite asset. Thank you Doug.

That said, I do feel he missed there was a subtext of his 'boosting' for the XT - many people here, who are highly experienced MF tech users, were reading that their gear was suddenly dated, and their images not as sharp as they could be. To some it came across as new kid telling everyone they have been doing it wrong. This was unintended, a subtext rather than overt, but obviously put people's noses out, as might be expected, given their deep familiarity with digital Tech Camera usage.

The XT is a nice step. That Israeli leaf shutter looks terrific, and the integration with IQ4 very useful. But that's about it. I smile at it being called a 'system' when it's 1 body and 3 lenses. Kind of hilarious compared to Alpa with their huge range of interchangeable bodies, dozens of lenses, tilt adapters, spacers, finders, etc. The XT is very basic at this point.

The Fuji GFX-100 is here and is great, Phase cannot compete with that. The XF is a dinosaur, so clearly Phase has pivoted to tech users, but it grates that Phase ignored tech users at IQ4 launch, just 9 months ago (!) in favor of it's XF, failed to address major issues, when loyal customers had paid a fortune for IQ4 backs only to find they hardly worked with their Tech system, which the preceding IQ3 model did.

All said and done, I think the XT will be great in a few years time. If I was starting afresh, I would seriously consider it. If I was a working tech pro today, I would hold fire. It has not arrived as a system as yet.


(Oh, and... long term tech user here (4 bodies) My FPS has 68,000 exposures and counting- and let me assure you, FPS 'shutter shock' is not an issue. The one exception: long lenses around 200/ 300mm not damped/ properly supported, where you should be using ES anyways. So that's a red herring. Mirror slap in the XF is a far bigger issue, but I don't recall that being discussed here when the IQ4 +XF system was being pitched as the best! )

 

[dave.gt]

Did I miss a one-sided censuring? Jack told us all to play nice.

You all are invited to my birthday party!!!!:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

 

[Jack]

Did I miss a one-sided censuring? Jack told us all to play nice.

Thank you Matt, exactly!!!

To be more clear: to my mind, Gerald did NOTHING wrong. He did ask Doug to be more specific about some of his claims. In that, I do feel Doug went a tad pissy back toward Gerald, but at the same time never crossed the line to actual rudeness. Jaap's comment crossed that line, and I almost gave him a 14-day timeout -- to my mind it's comments like those that send ANY thread south faster than Wile E Coyote off a cliff.

And yes, I am a grumpy old man with a short fuse, and I am ready to ban anybody who decides they don't need to play here by OUR rules.

 

[PeterA]

Speaking from experience - the stakes for a lot of people are pretty high in terms of invested capital (if nothing else) when it comes to new this or that announcements regarding new product offerings. No surprises to read some fair 'kick back' on some commentary provided.

more interesting to me is what the new mounting system from Phase One might be signalling to Alpa and other mount providers....

I think Phase One has embarked on a bold deviation from previous 'partnership' arrangements with Alpa - when one considers the (relatively) heavy outlay for a top shelf Phase One back and then the similarly eye watering cost of putting together various iterations of Alpa bodies/lenses and doodads - the Phase One offer of its own new mounting 'solution' is bound to challenge the sensibilities of the invested.

If I were Alpa - I'd forget trying to sell "video rigs" for the Fuji GFX100 at 10X the price that equally good chinese manufacturing is already delivering - and perhaps look to provide a Fuji GFX mount into its ecosystem. If I were a Phase One dealer - I would be embracing Fuji offerings as part of my inventory and clearing old stock rather than relying on a dying oligopoly/oligopsony business model.

 

[MGrayson]

Peter,

The key word is "invested". Would you advise anyone to invest in camera equipment? (I assume not). So what have people actually done. They've spent a lot of money on top end gear. They either made back the cost through business, or they are amateurs having fun. In neither case is the introduction of the Next Great Thing unexpected, or even to be regretted. As always, nothing anyone owns stops working when the NGT is announced.

I suspect that, all history notwithstanding, people expect good resale value for their top-end gear when it is no longer top-end. Well, it's a common enough human failing - I owned an IQ140, after all . And then there's someone telling them that they no longer own the NGT - that that title has moved on.

But when I try to think of who exactly is worse off after a NGT announcement, the answer is "no one".

Unless they actually *invested* in camera equipment, which would be silly :chug:

Best,

Matt

 

[dchew]

It is possible that P1 has agreements to offer adapters to fit Alpa SB mounts and Arca mounts at some later date. I don’t know what the relative “flange” distance is between the three. Something could easily replace the 17mm Alpa adapter.

Dave

 

[DougDolde]

"Investing" particularly in medium format (of any brand)
then upgrading every time something better comes out
is Dante's game. After the first hit you are hopelessly hooked
and will soon be broke ! Speaking from experience

 

[PeterA]

Peter,

The key word is "invested". Would you advise anyone to invest in camera equipment? (I assume not). So what have people actually done. They've spent a lot of money on top end gear. They either made back the cost through business, or they are amateurs having fun. In neither case is the introduction of the Next Great Thing unexpected, or even to be regretted. As always, nothing anyone owns stops working when the NGT is announced.

I suspect that, all history notwithstanding, people expect good resale value for their top-end gear when it is no longer top-end. Well, it's a common enough human failing - I owned an IQ140, after all . And then there's someone telling them that they no longer own the NGT - that that title has moved on.

But when I try to think of who exactly is worse off after a NGT announcement, the answer is "no one".

Unless they actually *invested* in camera equipment, which would be silly :chug:

Best,

Matt

Hi Matt

perhaps I should have used quotation marks around the word 'invested'....:ROTFL:

One of the things I do for people who ask me about this versus that piece of equipment they are thinking about 'investing' in...is to point them to my personal collection of marketing statements made by various companies over the years- I have kept a lot of product pamphlets, web pages etc from high end gear released over the last 20 or so years...lots of fun to go back through MFD back announcements and declarations from Hasselblad and PhaseOne in particular - not so much dead companies like: Sinar/Leaf/Mamiya.....or the myriad of 'upgrades' from Schneider and Rodenstock etc..

Still, rational responses (like yours above) don't totally protect anyone from an emotional response after seeing their (previously) best of the best something from the newly announced much improved best of the best new thing....and if a new thing also involves a total ecosystem change - well the potential for angst increases exponentially - I suspect that some posters extolling the virtue of this latest new thing opened up this pandora's box with the latest announcement from Phase One...

Pete

 

[JaapD]

ADMIN Deleted.

 

[Abstraction]

Peter,

The key word is "invested". Would you advise anyone to invest in camera equipment? (I assume not). So what have people actually done. They've spent a lot of money on top end gear. They either made back the cost through business, or they are amateurs having fun. In neither case is the introduction of the Next Great Thing unexpected, or even to be regretted. As always, nothing anyone owns stops working when the NGT is announced.

I suspect that, all history notwithstanding, people expect good resale value for their top-end gear when it is no longer top-end. Well, it's a common enough human failing - I owned an IQ140, after all . And then there's someone telling them that they no longer own the NGT - that that title has moved on.

But when I try to think of who exactly is worse off after a NGT announcement, the answer is "no one".

Unless they actually *invested* in camera equipment, which would be silly :chug:

Best,

Matt

You're right that nobody invests in a camera system, but everyone gets vested in a system they buy given that most systems are proprietary and it's difficult to mix and match components from various systems. I think where people feel angry and abandoned is when a new major component comes out that's not backward compatible with the system they are vested in. It doesn't mean that their current system stops working, but it does mean that their current system is all of a sudden a dead end, which was never hinted at or communicated outright when they bought that system. I think it's very legitimate to feel angry when that type of a thing happens ESPECIALLY when you get vested in a system by purchasing the last product in a chain that all of a sudden becomes a dead end a year or two after you bought it.

 

[mristuccia]

Did I miss a one-sided censuring? Jack told us all to play nice.

Yes, I think you missed it. I was referring to Jaap telling Gerald to go away.
Not referring at all to the moderator's advice.
I think there is a misundestandig here.

 

[MGrayson]

Yes, I think you missed it. I was referring to Jaap telling Gerald to go away.
Not referring at all to the moderator's advice.
I think there is a misundestandig here.

Ah, yes. I misunderstood. Thank you!

I think it's very legitimate to feel angry when that type of a thing happens ESPECIALLY when you get vested in a system by purchasing the last product in a chain that all of a sudden becomes a dead end a year or two after you bought it.

That's what puzzles me. What became a dead end? Not the XF, so what else is Phase One responsible for?

Hi Matt

perhaps I should have used quotation marks around the word 'invested'....:ROTFL:

One of the things I do for people who ask me about this versus that piece of equipment they are thinking about 'investing' in...is to point them to my personal collection of marketing statements made by various companies over the years- I have kept a lot of product pamphlets, web pages etc from high end gear released over the last 20 or so years...lots of fun to go back through MFD back announcements and declarations from Hasselblad and PhaseOne in particular - not so much dead companies like: Sinar/Leaf/Mamiya.....or the myriad of 'upgrades' from Schneider and Rodenstock etc..

Still, rational responses (like yours above) don't totally protect anyone from an emotional response after seeing their (previously) best of the best something from the newly announced much improved best of the best new thing....and if a new thing also involves a total ecosystem change - well the potential for angst increases exponentially - I suspect that some posters extolling the virtue of this latest new thing opened up this pandora's box with the latest announcement from Phase One...

Pete

But Phase One introduced a tech camera. That doesn't compete with their XF line. So what does it break? Someone with a large tech cam system from another manufacturer? Mechanical shutters are on their way out, so all those expensive lenses will need remounting anyway. The bodies themselves aren't a huge part of the expense, and the back, assuming recent Phase One, is entirely upgradeable.

Yes, I *am* being deliberately obtuse. I completely understand the reaction. My own "investment" is in systems one rung down the Ladder of Ridiculous Expense (LRE - I'm trademarking it). But the Leica S system is not thriving, and the X1D doesn't excite me, although I use it and it functions perfectly well. The Fuji's don't appeal at all - I wish I could change that (Although the 100 felt pretty good in the hand. Maybe I'll give them another try...)

But I'm extremely excited about *any* new system. It's easy to just add MP and call it an advance. This is something new.

Matt

 

[Abstraction]

That's what puzzles me. What became a dead end? Not the XF, so what else is Phase One responsible for?

Matt

The IQ3 100 became the dead end.

 

[Massive Si]

Ah, yes. I misunderstood. Thank you!




That's what puzzles me. What became a dead end? Not the XF, so what else is Phase One responsible for?

the IQ3

 

[MGrayson]

Ok. That makes sense.

Phase One has always been upgrade-or-die. I understand the disappointment, but I’m not surprised.

Matt

 

[Massive Si]

Ok. That makes sense.

Phase One has always been upgrade-or-die. I understand the disappointment, but I’m not surprised.

Matt

and good luck to them.

But for me, personally, it's clear: I would be very reluctant to spend my hard earned $ on another Phase One back.
I cannot have faith that P1 wont abandon it's life after a couple of years in the hope that I will upgrade to the latest and greatest, with the tens of thousands of $ that would involve. Not to mention the damage to the value on the used market

This approach may work for high wealth individuals, but not for me as a consumer, so I can see an end to my relationship with Phase One in the future.

 

[MGrayson]

and good luck to them.

But for me, personally, it's clear: I would be very reluctant to spend my hard earned $ on another Phase One back.
I cannot have faith that P1 wont abandon it's life after a couple of years in the hope that I will upgrade to the latest and greatest, with the tens of thousands of $ that would involve. Not to mention the damage to the value on the used market

This approach may work for high wealth individuals, but not for me as a consumer, so I can see an end to my relationship with Phase One in the future.

Apologies for going :OT: here, but I suspect that Fuji bears most of the responsibility for any drop in IQ3 resale value. The IQ140 dropped like a stone as soon as 40MP FF cameras hit the market, while the IQ160 kept its value longer.

Matt