Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

[TheDude]

Also a bit sad to see a marketing ploy with the 24mm used for shift

Especially since they knew, or should have known, this to be misleading. 24mm movement on each side would allow for stitching (another issue whether practical) but with just 12mm not even worth trying.

 

[TheDude]

I wouldn’t be surprised if Phase One moves to a rental only company like Arri does for their Alexa 65.

I am sure that there are many who just rent a P1 if they have a job or client that requires it.

But I think now with all the alternatives, like the Fuji GFX 100, it will rather go the other way.

 

[Paul2660]

Especially since they knew, or should have known, this to be misleading. 24mm movement on each side would allow for stitching (another issue whether practical) but with just 12mm not even worth trying.

I have agreed I miss interpreted Doug’s wording. The listing of 24mm total shift is the same that is used by other tech companies.

The total shift of 12mm for me is not a deal breaker as no Rodenstock wide I have can really go past that amount with image quality. Even the 40mm starts to show issues with CA and softness.

Cost of switching and no tilt are issues.

Paul C

 

[PeterA]

It also has to do with your ability to negotiate, how informed you are about the current values, promos and trade-ins. I know people that paid $98K for the same spec'd BMW X5M and others that paid $110K. The car MSRP was $121K with the same options. How did they get it for $98K? Timing, being patient, buying it at the right time of the year, having a relationship with the dealer, using whatever promotion they took advantage off and there are also loyalty incentives to be had. And I am sure that the dealer that sold the car for $98K didn't tell the next buyer: "Hey the last one I sold like this I took off $20K, so I will give you the same deal, just because". They need to make money and be profitable, what is wrong with that?

If uninformed people walk into the dealership they will most likely spend more money than the people that spend time in the car forum sharing information about the quotes they have and comparing deals with other forum members. They will know how much they can get the car for and how much they should pay.

If you wanted to buy a new release Rolex you would find the exact same thing, not everyone pays the same.

It happens with maney high value items, it is not a subsidy / loss thing. It is a simple reality that one should be aware of.

What exactly is it about price transparency that you don't understand?

Thanks for' schooling me' on dealing all that is required to buy something from Phase One- I have no interest what so ever playing games like that - life is too short to waste so much time begging for deals or becoming friends with intermediaries - my time is far more valuable than that!

Good luck to Phase One and all its happy clientele.

 

[Mexecutioner]

What exactly is it about price transparency that you don't understand?

Thanks for' schooling me' on dealing all that is required to buy something from Phase One- I have no interest what so ever playing games like that - life is too short to waste so much time begging for deals or becoming friends with intermediaries - my time is far more valuable than that!

Good luck to Phase One and all its happy clientele.

I understand very well that there is not such a thing as price transparency, as I illustrated. Fortunately you don't have to worry about that and all is well.

My apologies my post made you upset.

Have a great week!

 

[med]

Was able to get my hands on an XT while at my dealer last week and it is indeed a nice little camera system. I didn't do any detailed testing, just fiddled around a little bit. It was my first time using a production IQ4 so that took some getting used to. Some observations:

- Integrated dovetail and 90 degree rotation is very slick.
- new X shutter seems to be quite rugged and built very well. Fit and finish matches the rest of the product quite well.
- The whole camera system, with 32mm HR lens mounted feels nice, compact, and balanced. I've never put the 32 HR on my Arca RM3Di so I can't compare the two.
- The handle seems to be about the right size and depth for my hand, and I had no problem taking a few hand held shots. This is obviously not the primary function of the camera, but I find myself using the RM3Di for handheld shots semi frequently, either as a quick preview before setting up the tripod or for some snaps as I walk around (usually if I have my tech cam I won't have any other "real" camera). I find the handle on the RM3Di quite terrible and insufficient to even carry the camera with.
- The IQ4 firmware needs some more work to integrate with the XT (no surprise there). Some nice touches (readouts to the .5mm of current shift and rise positions are on the display), however the shutter speed is poorly implemented; when set to "LS Priority" it won't let you select a shutter speed faster than 1/1000. You have to go into the menu and select "ES Only" to gain faster shutter speeds. This is counter to how the XF works... when set to "LS Priority" you can select faster shutter speeds than the LS support and it will automatically switch shutter modes for you. If it is going to behave this way please get rid of the word "Priority" and call it what it is; either "LS" or "ES"
- Other than the confusing "Shutter mode", I found the IQ4 has taken some backwards steps in terms of interface usability, or perhaps I just need to get used to the differences between my IQ250 and it. It felt like things were either harder to find or took more steps and/or were less intuitive.

 

[Paul2660]

Just curious, with your RM3DI do you use the handle extension? Makes a huge difference. Easily can carry it with one hand. I agree base handle is pretty useless.

Paul C

 

[dougpeterson]

The IQ4 firmware needs some more work to integrate with the XT (no surprise there). Some nice touches (readouts to the .5mm of current shift and rise positions are on the display), however the shutter speed is poorly implemented; when set to "LS Priority" it won't let you select a shutter speed faster than 1/1000. You have to go into the menu and select "ES Only" to gain faster shutter speeds. This is counter to how the XF works... when set to "LS Priority" you can select faster shutter speeds than the LS support and it will automatically switch shutter modes for you. If it is going to behave this way please get rid of the word "Priority" and call it what it is; either "LS" or "ES"

This will change (in a good way) for the final release.

I found the IQ4 has taken some backwards steps in terms of interface usability, or perhaps I just need to get used to the differences between my IQ250 and it. It felt like things were either harder to find or took more steps and/or were less intuitive.

I'd live in it for a few hours before you make up your mind one way or the other. My experience was I was disoriented for ~1 hour by some of the changes and thereafter preferred it. Of course, I'm not telling you what to think; you may hate it even more after a few hours. I'm just encouraging you to withhold judgement for a short period of usage.

 

[med]

Just curious, with your RM3DI do you use the handle extension? Makes a huge difference. Easily can carry it with one hand. I agree base handle is pretty useless.

Paul C

I've been eyeballing the handle extension but have stopped short of ordering it twice. I know that tech cameras are not for the faint of wallet, but for some reason the cost of that particular accessory has given me pause! I would love to try it before buying it but your vote of confidence helps a lot. Thanks for your thoughts!

 

[Paul2660]

I purchased mine 4 years ago, maybe 5 hard to believe. I realize the prices have gone up. But I fully agree the stock handle is a joke, and the extension should be included with the camera. You have nothing to hold with stock handle. Love the extension. Rock solid once applied.

Paul C

 

[med]

This will change (in a good way) for the final release.



I'd live in it for a few hours before you make up your mind one way or the other. My experience was I was disoriented for ~1 hour by some of the changes and thereafter preferred it. Of course, I'm not telling you what to think; you may hate it even more after a few hours. I'm just encouraging you to withhold judgement for a short period of usage.

Thanks Doug. It was certainly a fast session and I'm sure getting used to it would help. It just felt like I was fighting the interface more than I wanted to instead of just "feeling right" the first time, like what has happened for me with cameras like Nikon's Pro bodies, the Leica Q, Hasselblad H (the body anyway, I have no experience with their backs), and some recent Fujii bodies. The XF+IQ250 certainly comes close to that level, however I recall feeling like the IQ250 required some "getting used to" as well. Muscle memory is a powerful thing and retraining it takes time. This is of course more about the IQ4 than the XT specifically, but I thought I would share my observations anyway.

Another feature that I noted as being potentially useful for the IQ4 and/or XT that could be on the roadmap for all I know, is adding the "Vibration delay" to the self timer modes from the XF. Heck the vibration analysis can be added as well for the little seismograph.

 

[Mexecutioner]

Thanks Doug. It was certainly a fast session and I'm sure getting used to it would help. It just felt like I was fighting the interface more than I wanted to instead of just "feeling right" the first time, like what has happened for me with cameras like Nikon's Pro bodies, the Leica Q, Hasselblad H (the body anyway, I have no experience with their backs), and some recent Fujii bodies. The XF+IQ250 certainly comes close to that level, however I recall feeling like the IQ250 required some "getting used to" as well. Muscle memory is a powerful thing and retraining it takes time. This is of course more about the IQ4 than the XT specifically, but I thought I would share my observations anyway.

Another feature that I noted as being potentially useful for the IQ4 and/or XT that could be on the roadmap for all I know, is adding the "Vibration delay" to the self timer modes from the XF. Heck the vibration analysis can be added as well for the little seismograph.

Perhaps I am mistaken, but the vibration analysis won't be possible with the XT as the XF is performing it. I think the IQ4 does not have the sensors to do this.

 

[RLB]

Just curious, with your RM3DI do you use the handle extension? Makes a huge difference. Easily can carry it with one hand. I agree base handle is pretty useless.

Paul C

I have the handle extension on both the Rm3di and the Factum and can't imagine using it without especially with a heavy lens like the 32mm Rode.

Robert

 

[med]

Perhaps I am mistaken, but the vibration analysis won't be possible with the XT as the XF is performing it. I think the IQ4 does not have the sensors to do this.

I am sure that's what they will tell us, however the IQ4 definitely has accelerometers in it (for the level) so perhaps it is possible? I don't know enough about accelerometers to know if they are used for the XF vibration functionality or if there is a different unit in there.

My point still stands for whatever the "Beyond Infinity" platform looks like for Phase... there are a number of XF-specific features that would be right at home on a tech camera, whether the XT or something else.

 

[drunkenspyder]

I have agreed I miss interpreted Doug’s wording. The listing of 24mm total shift is the same that is used by other tech companies.

The total shift of 12mm for me is not a deal breaker as no Rodenstock wide I have can really go past that amount with image quality. Even the 40mm starts to show issues with CA and softness.

Cost of switching and no tilt are issues.

Paul C

I agree that clarity is always a good thing—and the fact that some misunderstood "24" to mean "±24" suggests more clarity would have been beneficial—but I remember from when I first read about the XT, somehow I never interpreted "24mm" as anything other than ±12. But I reject the notion that Phase/DT/CI were intentionally misleading or "knew, or should have known, this to be misleading," [as TheDude stated], inasmuch as other camera companies have used total shift as a metric also. For me, 24 is just barely enough, but I understand that, for others, it might not be. Maybe v2, if there ever is such a thing, will go to 20. Frankly, at these prices, it behooves us as customers to ensure we understand exactly what is being offered, and what we are getting, and to communicate with the maker when we find the product wanting [that's one of the great things about having guys like Steve and Doug here]. And to that point Paul, I agree that cost of switching and no tilt are significant factors.

 

[dougpeterson]

I agree that clarity is always a good thing—and the fact that some misunderstood "24" to mean "±24" suggests more clarity would have been beneficial—but I remember from when I first read about the XT, somehow I never interpreted "24mm" as anything other than ±12. But I reject the notion that Phase/DT/CI were intentionally misleading or "knew, or should have known, this to be misleading," [as TheDude stated], inasmuch as other camera companies have used total shift as a metric also.

Some tech cameras market their products using [Total Range] and some people will assume such a spec is [+/- Distance]. Therefore my feeling was that the clearest way for DT to communicate the spec was to always provide BOTH the [Total Range] and the [+/- Distance].

If you see a place on www.PhaseOneXT.com or www.DTCommercialPhoto.com that contains a reference to "24mm" that is not immediately followed by "+/- 12mm" please let me know so I can make sure we add it there. We (DT) had several people working on the launch materials, so I don't rule out that this was missed somewhere.

 

[dougpeterson]

My point still stands for whatever the "Beyond Infinity" platform looks like for Phase... there are a number of XF-specific features that would be right at home on a tech camera, whether the XT or something else.

I'm always interested in hearing such suggestions! In addition to sharing them with your dealer, I think it would be very productive for you to list such suggestions here both because others can agree (or not) to the suggestions which is informative, and because some such ideas might have a clever or even superior "workaround" that is possible today.

 

[stephengilbert]

So Doug, are you suggesting that people should have a dealer?

 

[TheDude]

But I reject the notion that Phase/DT/CI were intentionally misleading or "knew, or should have known, this to be misleading," [as TheDude stated], inasmuch as other camera companies have used total shift as a metric also

I could not find on PhaseOne website, the shift information for the XT. But giving only one number "24mm" may suggest, at least to Linhof Techno and Silvestri Flexicam users, that this means -/+ 24mm.
---------------------
Linhof Techno (https://bit.ly/2mxYXw8)
Front standard:
Horizontal parallel shift: 10 mm left, 10 mm right
Vertical parallel shift: 20 mm nach oben [sic]
...
Rear standard:
Vertical parallel shift: 20 mm up, 20 mm down

Silvestri Flexicam (https://bit.ly/2me6qAe)
Vertical shift 23 + 23mm
Horizontal shift 15 + 15mm


P.S. Now I found it at P1's website (https://bit.ly/2mzR0Xf). I stand corrected, it's clear that it's -/+ 12mm
-----------------------------
Horizontal dial
12mm shift to the left
12mm shift to the right
Vertical dial
12mm shift up
12mm shift down

 

[drunkenspyder]

I could not find on PhaseOne website, the shift information for the XT. But giving only one number "24mm" may suggest, at least to Linhof Techno and Silvestri Flexicam users, that this means -/+ 24mm.
---------------------
Linhof Techno (https://bit.ly/2mxYXw8)
Front standard:
Horizontal parallel shift: 10 mm left, 10 mm right
Vertical parallel shift: 20 mm nach oben [sic]
...
Rear standard:
Vertical parallel shift: 20 mm up, 20 mm down

Silvestri Flexicam (https://bit.ly/2me6qAe)
Vertical shift 23 + 23mm
Horizontal shift 15 + 15mm


P.S. Now I found it at P1's website (https://bit.ly/2mzR0Xf). I stand corrected, it's clear that it's -/+ 12mm
-----------------------------
Horizontal dial
12mm shift to the left
12mm shift to the right
Vertical dial
12mm shift up
12mm shift down

Good info. As I said, I am all for clarity; I just don't think there's much evidence of any intent to mislead or recklessness with the specs.