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Thread: Phase One XT Camera Revelations and Considerations

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    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
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    Phase One XT Camera Revelations and Considerations

    With several of the CI Team returned from their time in Denmark last week and weekend, we're now happy to post 4 pages of Phase One XT Information, opinions, considerations, and projections:

    https://captureintegration.com/phase...camera-system/

    https://captureintegration.com/phaseonextneedtoknow/

    https://captureintegration.com/ci-ex...xt-first-look/

    https://captureintegration.com/is-th...he-holy-grail/


    Steve Hendrix/CI
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    Re: Phase One XT Camera Revelations and Considerations

    A very well written - and most importantly, well balanced - "Holy Grail" article.

    For anyone not already invested in a tech/field camera system, and who is in the market for one, this is a very compelling solution.

    Kind regards,


    Gerald.
    Likes 3 Member(s) liked this post

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    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One XT Camera Revelations and Considerations

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    A very well written - and most importantly, well balanced - "Holy Grail" article.

    For anyone not already invested in a tech/field camera system, and who is in the market for one, this is a very compelling solution.

    Kind regards,


    Gerald.

    Thank you Gerald.


    Steve Hendrix/CI
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    Re: Phase One XT Camera Revelations and Considerations

    Rather sobering to think that the total price of the system (with the 32HR) is $65,000.

    Or will there be bundle deals when bought with the back?

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    Re: Phase One XT Camera Revelations and Considerations

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    Rather sobering to think that the total price of the system (with the 32HR) is $65,000.

    Or will there be bundle deals when bought with the back?
    how much for a kit? back/body/3 lenses?
    They are just tools for a job.

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    Re: Phase One XT Camera Revelations and Considerations

    Thanks Steve.
    One question comes to mind; How about compatibility with IQ3 backs?

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    Re: Phase One XT Camera Revelations and Considerations

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    Rather sobering to think that the total price of the system (with the 32HR) is $65,000.

    Or will there be bundle deals when bought with the back?

    The bundle price is $56,990, a significant improvement over buying individually.

    $5,990 - XT Body

    $11,990 - 23HR Lens X

    $11,990 - 32HR Lens X

    $8,990 - 70HR Lens X

    $46,990 - IQ4 150


    Steve Hendrix/CI
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    Re: Phase One XT Camera Revelations and Considerations

    Quote Originally Posted by MrSmith View Post
    how much for a kit? back/body/3 lenses?
    Well if you go off the list prices, that would bring it to $86K, but based on what I've heard recently, I would imagine that you would get a hefty amount off that.

    It's a shame there is no transparency on "true" pricing of Phase One products.

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    Re: Phase One XT Camera Revelations and Considerations

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix View Post
    The bundle price is $56,990, a slight improvement over buying individually.

    $5,990 - XT Body

    $11,990 - 23HR Lens X

    $11,990 - 32HR Lens X

    $8,990 - 70HR Lens X

    $46,990 - IQ4 150


    Steve Hendrix/CI
    Ahh ok, that seems a fair enough starting point before trade-in/negotiation opportunities

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    Re: Phase One XT Camera Revelations and Considerations

    Quote Originally Posted by Pemihan View Post
    Thanks Steve.
    One question comes to mind; How about compatibility with IQ3 backs?
    None.

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    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One XT Camera Revelations and Considerations

    Quote Originally Posted by Pemihan View Post
    Thanks Steve.
    One question comes to mind; How about compatibility with IQ3 backs?

    IQ3 lacks the horsepower of the IQ4 to optimally provide a shutter controlling capability internally.

    But critically, it also it lacks the 2 power pins that the 12 pin port of the IQ4 provide.


    Steve Hendrix/CI
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    Re: Phase One XT Camera Revelations and Considerations

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    A very well written - and most importantly, well balanced - "Holy Grail" article.

    For anyone not already invested in a tech/field camera system, and who is in the market for one, this is a very compelling solution.

    Kind regards,


    Gerald.
    Been pondering this, and I think - sadly - this is going to pretty much kill off demand for the ALPA TC, STC, and SWA.

    The marginal (when looking at the total system price) increase in cost for the lenses and camera body of the XT are more than compensated for by the benefits it brings.

    I'm not sure how "open" the platform is for using other lenses, but possibly will also significantly eat into the FPS market.



    *edit
    D'oh. No of course it won't - no shutter in the camera

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    Re: Phase One XT Camera Revelations and Considerations

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    None.
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix View Post
    IQ3 lacks the horsepower of the IQ4 to optimally provide a shutter controlling capability internally.

    But critically, it also it lacks the 2 power pins that the 12 pin port of the IQ4 provide.


    Steve Hendrix/CI
    Well I guess I'll just stick to my "old" WRS 1250 then.
    But I find it hard to believe that they couldn't incorporate some of the features like for instance shift info into IQ3.
    Last edited by Pemihan; 10th September 2019 at 11:05.

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    Re: Phase One XT Camera Revelations and Considerations

    Thanks for the information Steve - fantastic piece of kit - especially for those invested in iQ4 backs. Kudos to Phase One .

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    Re: Phase One XT Camera Revelations and Considerations

    Leaving off any swing or tilt is a bit surprising.

    Use it in all my wides. Tilt.

    Love the look and built in shutter.

    Cost delta for the P1 mount at around 4.5K per lens is a disappointing issue.

    No mention of adapting older Schneider’s.

    No mention of the 90 HRSW.

    Longer lens with back extensions? 90mm. 120mm. 180mm

    Paul C

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    Senior Member Abstraction's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One XT Camera Revelations and Considerations

    No tilt capabilities? TTL flash?

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    Re: Phase One XT Camera Revelations and Considerations

    Steve,
    What about Auto Focus with this camera.
    I can’t find any focus info
    Stanley

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    Re: Phase One XT Camera Revelations and Considerations

    What about the need for an LCC exposure with these wide lenses?
    Stanley

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    Re: Phase One XT Camera Revelations and Considerations

    the shutter technology sounds interesting.
    not for my business but i’m sure there’s a fairly decent sized market for it.
    They are just tools for a job.

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    Re: Phase One XT Camera Revelations and Considerations

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix View Post
    The bundle price is $56,990, a significant improvement over buying individually.

    $5,990 - XT Body

    $11,990 - 23HR Lens X

    $11,990 - 32HR Lens X

    $8,990 - 70HR Lens X

    Steve Hendrix/CI
    Wow they want $9000 for that old film-era 70mm Rodenstock?!!
    it's one of the better film era Roddies, but it's still a very old design, not up to modern digital standards, let alone 150mp.
    (Yes I have owned and used, 50, 60, 70,and 90mm Rod's)

    Phase really should have had the clout to commission a special new Rodenstock lens.

    And why not the 50mm f4? That's one of Rodenstock's best digital lenses.

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    Re: Phase One XT Camera Revelations and Considerations

    Quote Originally Posted by narikin View Post
    Wow they want $9000 for that old film-era 70mm Rodenstock?!!
    it's one of the better film era Roddies, but it's still a very old design, not up to modern digital standards, let alone 150mp.
    (Yes I have owned and used, 50, 60, 70,and 90mm Rod's)

    Phase really should have had the clout to commission a special new Rodenstock lens.

    And why not the 50mm f4? That's one of Rodenstock's best digital lenses.
    That's interesting: Narikin, which in your view aree the sharpest?

    I understand that the:

    138 will be crazy sharp
    90 is very sharp
    and then what is the best of the best in the Rodie world below that, considering also ability to shift?

    Thank you

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    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One XT Camera Revelations and Considerations

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post
    Leaving off any swing or tilt is a bit surprising.

    Use it in all my wides. Tilt.

    Love the look and built in shutter.

    Cost delta for the P1 mount at around 4.5K per lens is a disappointing issue.

    No mention of adapting older Schneider’s.

    No mention of the 90 HRSW.

    Longer lens with back extensions? 90mm. 120mm. 180mm

    Paul C

    The lens cost is actually lower than the cost for the same lens in Sinar/Rodenstock eShutter 250.

    Phase One has stated they will take requests for additional lenses. 90HR would certainly be an option. Schneider's would have to be converted to XT lens, for full compatibility.

    Longer lenses may be possible (there won't be an extension to the back because it must communicate electronically with the rear of the camera).


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    Re: Phase One XT Camera Revelations and Considerations

    Quote Originally Posted by stngoldberg View Post
    Steve,
    What about Auto Focus with this camera.
    I can’t find any focus info
    Stanley
    Manual focus only at this point.


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    Re: Phase One XT Camera Revelations and Considerations

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Spinnler View Post
    That's interesting: Narikin, which in your view aree the sharpest?

    I understand that the:

    138 will be crazy sharp
    90 is very sharp
    and then what is the best of the best in the Rodie world below that, considering also ability to shift?

    Thank you
    They should have had the 50mm in there - big gap from 32 to 70mm.
    Very wide to extreme wide is covered, (23 & 32mm) but nothing in between, no moderate-wide walk about option.
    The 70mm is really a 'standard' focal length for this format. =50mm in 35mm.

    The 50/f4 would be my first choice.
    Some sort of 45mm? 55mm?

    That said I presume the 50mm will be in the release pipeline.

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    Re: Phase One XT Camera Revelations and Considerations

    Quote Originally Posted by narikin View Post
    Wow they want $9000 for that old film-era 70mm Rodenstock?!!
    it's one of the better film era Roddies, but it's still a very old design, not up to modern digital standards, let alone 150mp.
    (Yes I have owned and used, 50, 60, 70,and 90mm Rod's)

    Phase really should have had the clout to commission a special new Rodenstock lens.

    And why not the 50mm f4? That's one of Rodenstock's best digital lenses.

    Maybe they have!

    Regarding the 50mm, keep in mind these 3 are just starting points.


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    Re: Phase One XT Camera Revelations and Considerations

    How is this not just a Cambo in Phase One clothes?

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    Re: Phase One XT Camera Revelations and Considerations

    Quote Originally Posted by DougDolde View Post
    How is this not just a Cambo in Phase One clothes?

    Cambo does manufacture the XT Camera itself for Phase One. Other than the Rodenstock lenses, the rest of the clothing is Phase One. Thanks for asking Doug!


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    Re: Phase One XT Camera Revelations and Considerations

    90 HR magenta band? Or 90 HRSW yellow band?

    HR will work on most without a back extension but most mounts need the back extension for the 90 HRSW.

    I guess the 138 can work without a back extension as shown in pictures.

    Paul C

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    Re: Phase One XT Camera Revelations and Considerations

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post
    90 HR magenta band? Or 90 HRSW yellow band?

    HR will work on most without a back extension but most mounts need the back extension for the 90 HRSW.

    I guess the 138 can work without a back extension as shown in pictures.

    Paul C

    I think these will come, the back extension helps with minimizing vignetting, but given the limited movement (relative to other tech cameras), that may not be an issue if they front load it.


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    Re: Phase One XT Camera Revelations and Considerations

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix View Post

    Longer lenses may be possible (there won't be an extension to the back because it must communicate electronically with the rear of the camera).


    Steve Hendrix/CI
    This doesn’t really make sense.

    Manufacturing an extender with the necessary connections at either end, with conductors running through the length of the extender, should be relative child’s play compared to what has been delivered here.

    Heck. It wouldn’t take a lot to build in a little bit of logic to communicate the length of the extender to the back and “shutter brain”.

    /edit... isn’t this effectively exactly what the camera itself provides to enable comms between the back and the lens/shutter unit?
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    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One XT Camera Revelations and Considerations

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    This doesn’t really make sense.

    Manufacturing an extender with the necessary connections at either end, with conductors running through the length of the extender, should be relative child’s play compared to what has been delivered here.

    Heck. It wouldn’t take a lot to build in a little bit of logic to communicate the length of the extender to the back and “shutter brain”.

    /edit... isn’t this effectively exactly what the camera itself provides to enable comms between the back and the lens/shutter unit?

    Well, I agree potentially. I just haven't heard anything about a rear extender, and it may not be necessary, if vignetting does not cut in from the 12mm movement.


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    Re: Phase One XT Camera Revelations and Considerations

    I wish the shutter was in the body like Alpa's FPS. Having to buy an eShutter with every tech cam lens is a pain in the wallet, especially when the ES on the IQ4 itself is pretty good, and getting better with every generation.
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    Re: Phase One XT Camera Revelations and Considerations

    **removed** oooops.... Gerald beat me to it! Should have read the whole thread before commenting.

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    Re: Phase One XT Camera Revelations and Considerations

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post

    No mention of adapting older Schneider’s.



    Paul C
    The "What you need to know" page does mention "This shutter will be available Q2 of 2020 for third party vendors and lenses. " which I suppose opens the door to custom mounting old Schneider lenses, or other Rodenstock lenses as well.

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    Re: Phase One XT Camera Revelations and Considerations

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix View Post
    Regarding the 50mm, keep in mind these 3 are just starting points.


    Steve Hendrix/CI
    Yes, but that does limit the appeal for a lot of people probably. When launching a DSLR the approach of only offering a zoom at first kind of works, but with a tech cam people often only use one or two lenses and if your bread and butter lens is not one of these three lenses, then the whole system doesn't make sense for now.

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    Re: Phase One XT Camera Revelations and Considerations

    As all who read this site know this XT discussion is taking place on two threads-one with Doug and one with Steve.
    Both threads contain similar information and varied comments, but one issue that has been left unaddressed is the lack of Tilt which happens to be one the major reasons that I use a technical camera.
    There are so many occasions when focus stacking just will not fill the bill especially outdoors in all but the most calm condition that are exempt from moving water.
    Focus stacking will be useful in indoor architectural photography and this area seems to be ideal use for the XT, but the folks that make a living in architectural photography have to determine if the convenience merits the considerable cost.
    For me when I carry my Arca Swiss on a strap secured to my shoulder by my quite small backpack overlapping it, I would probably transport the DT the same way
    While the advertisement headlined no cables, it only takes less than a minute to attach cables to my IQ3 100.
    It is still necessary to measure the distance with my Leica laser on both setups
    Even with the new BSI technology, I would most likely use on LCC when shifting...again only a few seconds!
    So I struggle with the new concept introduced today from a convenience perspective and without Tilt (which I use on every image) I would have difficulty
    investing.
    Stanley

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    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One XT Camera Revelations and Considerations

    Quote Originally Posted by med View Post
    The "What you need to know" page does mention "This shutter will be available Q2 of 2020 for third party vendors and lenses. " which I suppose opens the door to custom mounting old Schneider lenses, or other Rodenstock lenses as well.
    Yes, potentially.

    I have the feeling that it will not be a case of just any lens, but seeing that the 23HR can fit (which is only available in Long Barrel for Alpa users, and is not offered in Tilt/Swing mount for existing Cambo WRS users), I am optimistic that Schneider lenses (some of which also are only available in long barrel mount) will also be able to fit via conversion.

    Quote Originally Posted by JeRuFo View Post
    Yes, but that does limit the appeal for a lot of people probably. When launching a DSLR the approach of only offering a zoom at first kind of works, but with a tech cam people often only use one or two lenses and if your bread and butter lens is not one of these three lenses, then the whole system doesn't make sense for now.
    I can see this limiting the appeal to some. But I cannot remember the last time I sold a tech camera system + one starter lens to anyone where the starter lens was not a wide. If I had my preference to pick 3 lenses, I would have rather had the 40HR in the mix vs the 70HR. Many are going to be happy starting with the 32HR, but the 40HR would have been a nice part of the mix. It does take time to produce the data for these lenses, but I am confident that more will be added soon.


    Quote Originally Posted by stngoldberg View Post
    As all who read this site know this XT discussion is taking place on two threads-one with Doug and one with Steve.
    Both threads contain similar information and varied comments, but one issue that has been left unaddressed is the lack of Tilt which happens to be one the major reasons that I use a technical camera.
    There are so many occasions when focus stacking just will not fill the bill especially outdoors in all but the most calm condition that are exempt from moving water.
    Focus stacking will be useful in indoor architectural photography and this area seems to be ideal use for the XT, but the folks that make a living in architectural photography have to determine if the convenience merits the considerable cost.
    For me when I carry my Arca Swiss on a strap secured to my shoulder by my quite small backpack overlapping it, I would probably transport the DT the same way
    While the advertisement headlined no cables, it only takes less than a minute to attach cables to my IQ3 100.
    It is still necessary to measure the distance with my Leica laser on both setups
    Even with the new BSI technology, I would most likely use on LCC when shifting...again only a few seconds!
    So I struggle with the new concept introduced today from a convenience perspective and without Tilt (which I use on every image) I would have difficulty
    investing.
    Stanley
    Hi Stanley - while I think this camera and shutter are the start of something great for technical camera lovers, it is not for everyone (is any product for everyone?). And if tilt is really important, then at least for now, there is not a tilt option for the 3 current lenses. This could change with additional lenses (not sure about these, but I don't want to rule that out, save for the 23HR, I am doubtful of that one).

    Time will tell. In the meantime, you have the opportunity to wait and see how things develop with regard to tilt and other emerging news with this system.


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    Re: Phase One XT Camera Revelations and Considerations

    It is appropriate for me to say to both Doug and Steve how much I appreciate their candor and obvious integrity while they both point out the merits of their newest product
    Stanley
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    Re: Phase One XT Camera Revelations and Considerations

    How many aperture blades has the shutter?
    Regards,
    Ben

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    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One XT Camera Revelations and Considerations

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben730 View Post
    How many aperture blades has the shutter?
    Regards,
    Ben

    Ben, the aperture module in the X shutter has 5 blades.


    Steve Hendrix/CI
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  41. #41
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    Re: Phase One XT Camera Revelations and Considerations

    Quote Originally Posted by narikin View Post
    Wow they want $9000 for that old film-era 70mm Rodenstock?!!
    it's one of the better film era Roddies, but it's still a very old design, not up to modern digital standards, let alone 150mp.
    (Yes I have owned and used, 50, 60, 70,and 90mm Rod's)

    Phase really should have had the clout to commission a special new Rodenstock lens.

    And why not the 50mm f4? That's one of Rodenstock's best digital lenses.

    I can attest that the 70mm Rode HR (Blue ring) is an excellent lens when used with the IQ4-150 after using it for the past 8 months. Some of the "legacy" lenses are quite happy with the IQ4 in terms of shifting and resolving. The 90mm Rode HR (Blue or Magenta ring as its the exact same lens according to Rodenstock) is also an excellent lens that I have tested extensively with the IQ4-150.

    Consider that the IQ4 has a BSI sensor, which is far more forgiving compared to previous CMOS and CCD sensors that were FSI when shifting, and therefore there is less demands made of the lens in terms of color fringing (avoidance of such optically). Also consider that the 90mm Rode HR does NOT require a rear extension, is 30% smaller and lighter when compared to the new 90mm HR-SW and a pristine example is 1/4 the cost...assuming you can find one...I just sold an extra copy I had for $1,800. (unmounted). Point in case just because a view lens is not the latests design does not mean it is not a fantastic lens with the newest DB's.

    R
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    Re: Phase One XT Camera Revelations and Considerations

    Quote Originally Posted by RLB View Post
    I can attest that the 70mm Rode HR (Blue ring) is an excellent lens when used with the IQ4-150 after using it for the past 8 months. Some of the "legacy" lenses are quite happy with the IQ4 in terms of shifting and resolving. The 90mm Rode HR (Blue or Magenta ring as its the exact same lens according to Rodenstock) is also an excellent lens that I have tested extensively with the IQ4-150.

    Consider that the IQ4 has a BSI sensor, which is far more forgiving compared to previous CMOS and CCD sensors that were FSI when shifting, and therefore there is less demands made of the lens in terms of color fringing (avoidance of such optically). Also consider that the 90mm Rode HR does NOT require a rear extension, is 30% smaller and lighter when compared to the new 90mm HR-SW and a pristine example is 1/4 the cost...assuming you can find one...I just sold an extra copy I had for $1,800. (unmounted). Point in case just because a view lens is not the latests design does not mean it is not a fantastic lens with the newest DB's.

    R
    What can I say? We clearly have different ideas of what 'sharp' means.

    Rodenstock didn't just abandon the blue/magenta ring 90mm,and make an (all new design) Yellow band 90mm for the heck of it. They did it because of all the complaints about the Blue ring not being up to it.

    I can't argue that the old 90mm lens isn't lighter and cheaper, but the rest I very much take issue with. And Rodenstock clearly agreed.

    The 70mm is better, as many, including myself, have said. Not right up there, but much more acceptable.

    As always, ymmv, and by all means use whatever works for you. We are all different in our needs.

  43. #43
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    Re: Phase One XT Camera Revelations and Considerations

    On an overall basis, the XT, back, and lens setup looks like a well-integrated and thoughtfully designed package, although some will be waiting for an extended lens lineup. Looking at this from another way, imagine different target audiences:

    - the all-in pro, who wants the better integration, smaller size, and has the budget to get what they need, either in purchase or lease.
    - the well-heeled who simply want the best, and aren't worried about the cost.
    - the medium-heeled, who are able to work in the medium-format digital world, but have budget concerns.

    For the first two groups, the fully integrated design can be attractive. However, for the last group, the news doesn't play well as older backs and lenses don't hook up. Maybe that gets fixed over time, but at the moment, the Hassy approach (bolt anything up to it at either end) or Alpa's modular arrangement are more favorable to older pieces of kit.

    The design sets a new standard for integration and ease of use. One could imagine a day when the shutter is more widely available, and the IQ4 is at a different price point... then this all makes a lot more sense.
    Last edited by Geoff; 11th September 2019 at 10:19.

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    Re: Phase One XT Camera Revelations and Considerations

    Quote Originally Posted by narikin View Post
    What can I say? We clearly have different ideas of what 'sharp' means.

    Rodenstock didn't just abandon the blue/magenta ring 90mm,and make an (all new design) Yellow band 90mm for the heck of it. They did it because of all the complaints about the Blue ring not being up to it.

    I can't argue that the old 90mm lens isn't lighter and cheaper, but the rest I very much take issue with. And Rodenstock clearly agreed.

    The 70mm is better, as many, including myself, have said. Not right up there, but much more acceptable.

    As always, ymmv, and by all means use whatever works for you. We are all different in our needs.

    Mr. Narkin, sir, I sense you've been deeply hurt or let down by a Rode lens in your past. I feel your pain man, I really do.

    Keep your chin up mate!


    R

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    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One XT Camera Revelations and Considerations

    I have always assumed the 90HR Yellow Band is a different lens than the 90HR Blue Band. I don’t know this for a fact, I’ve never asked Rodenstock about this particular lens. I assumed that given the larger size and the added weight, the 72mm vs 67mm filter thread, the 115mm vs 125mm stated image circle, that this was a new lens and a new formulation.

    I haven’t tested and compared the two. But hard to see who it is the same lens, perhaps they mean same formulation, I don’t know. But something changed, and I expect for the better, I have had clients who purchased that were owners of the previous 90HR Blue Band.

    And I’m all about legacy lenses. Remember, I’m the one that sent the Schneider Super Symmar 210/5.6 Lens to Cambo for WRS fitting after they told me I should not and I did anyway and made believers out of them (they made a post about underrated legacy lenses on their Facebook page as a result). The results from that lens exceeded the later released 120mm APO Digitar N (and approached but didn’t quite match the 120mm ASPH).

    It is certainly possible to compare an average copy of a great lens to a superlative copy of a good lens and come away with unexpected conclusions. Definitive conclusions require more comparative testing. Ultimately what matters is that you're happy with the lenses you own. Robert happy with Blue. Narikan happy with yellow. There you go!


    Steve Hendrix/CI
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    Re: Phase One XT Camera Revelations and Considerations

    Thanks very much Steve and the CI team for the writeups!

    I'll be sticking with my current kit but always nice to see more tech cam products/options out there

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    Re: Phase One XT Camera Revelations and Considerations

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix View Post
    I have always assumed the 90HR Yellow Band is a different lens than the 90HR Blue Band. I don’t know this for a fact, I’ve never asked Rodenstock about this particular lens. I assumed that given the larger size and the added weight, the 72mm vs 67mm filter thread, the 115mm vs 125mm stated image circle, that this was a new lens and a new formulation.

    I haven’t tested and compared the two. But hard to see who it is the same lens, perhaps they mean same formulation, I don’t know. But something changed, and I expect for the better, I have had clients who purchased that were owners of the previous 90HR Blue Band.

    And I’m all about legacy lenses. Remember, I’m the one that sent the Schneider Super Symmar 210/5.6 Lens to Cambo for WRS fitting after they told me I should not and I did anyway and made believers out of them (they made a post about underrated legacy lenses on their Facebook page as a result). The results from that lens exceeded the later released 120mm APO Digitar N (and approached but didn’t quite match the 120mm ASPH).

    It is certainly possible to compare an average copy of a great lens to a superlative copy of a good lens and come away with unexpected conclusions. Definitive conclusions require more comparative testing. Ultimately what matters is that you're happy with the lenses you own. Robert happy with Blue. Narikan happy with yellow. There you go!


    Steve Hendrix/CI

    From the research I've done specifically with the 90mm Rode's, I can attest to the following:

    Rodenstock by their own admission (in their sales literature) states the 90mm Magenta band (HR-S) and the 90mm Blue band (HR-W) are indeed the exact same lens that they "rebranded" and felt it was unnecessary to redesign it as the "quality was already higher than the other Magenta band lenses" that they had at the time. Take note that this applies to both the 70mm and the 90mm. So what they are saying is that the magenta and blue ring 70mm and 90mm are the exact same lenses aside from color of ring.

    Direct quote from a Rode sales brochure below:

    "This new lens series (Blue band HR-W) comprises the focal lengths of 40 mm, 50 mm, 70 mm and 90 mm. The last mentioned two lenses are the renamed former Apo-Sironar digital 70 mmf/5.6 and Apo-Sironar digital 90 mm f/5.6 which both had already been calculated according to the much higher demands on freedom from aberrations for higher resolution with larger working apertures (reduced stopping down)".


    The current 90mm Rode (yellow band) "HR-SW" is according to Rodenstock a "new" design. It's physically larger, heavier and requires a rear extension on a Tech camera, whereas the previous 90mm does not. All the 90mm lenses share the same image large circle: 120mm. Clearly, its apparent from the most basic inspection that the yellow band lens is a new design.

    Other points of relevance: The quality of the lens itself (how precisely the optics are mounted at the factory; production tolerances), how accurate the collimation was in the mounting, etc, etc.

    And finally what DB you are using: The IQ4 BSI sensor is far more forgiving when shifting and dealing with color fringing. This places less demand on the optics.

    Bottom line as Steve states: the choice is yours the previous design or the current one. I prefer the previous for weight and size reduction, lack of need for a rear extension and price. If you choose otherwise, so be it. But be informed about sharpness in that my testing with the lenses I used showed no practical difference in "optical sharpness", where the newer lens shines is in shifting further without color fringing. Add an IQ4 with BSI sensor and color fringing is no longer an issue on either lens.

    One last bit: I compared two copies of very clean 90mm HR's (Magenta ring) and after extensive testing for sharpness at center and edges concluded that there was no discernible differences between those two copies in terms of production tolerances. For $1,500. - $1,800. my money is on the previous generation.


    Robert
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    Re: Phase One XT Camera Revelations and Considerations

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    Been pondering this, and I think - sadly - this is going to pretty much kill off demand for the ALPA TC, STC, and SWA.

    The marginal (when looking at the total system price) increase in cost for the lenses and camera body of the XT are more than compensated for by the benefits it brings.

    I'm not sure how "open" the platform is for using other lenses, but possibly will also significantly eat into the FPS market.



    *edit
    D'oh. No of course it won't - no shutter in the camera
    Apologies to Steve for linking through to the other thread, but I think that's where most of the discussion is now going on.

    I've been pondering some more, and actually completely retract what I say above.

    Post here -

    https://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium-...tml#post799450

  49. #49
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    Re: Phase One XT Camera Revelations and Considerations

    As noted in multiple places, the finalized version of the XT firmware is now here. This firmware also has added some additional features and even some changes from the beta version previously in place. There are some important installation notes in the below link, please read in detail.

    Phase One IQ4/XT Firmware Update Notes

    ** Note that for use on non-XT technical camera bodies (XF should be same as XT), the only hard button exposure control you have while in Live View is ISO. It has been stated elsewhere that exposure control includes aperture and shutter speed, but this is not the case. While we would expect shutter speed to make its way into the hard button control elements eventually for non-XT camera use (via Electronic Shutter), it doesn't make any sense that aperture would be listed, since there is no aperture control from the interface possible off of the XT.



    I will say that after reviewing a lot of the commentary on the XT product, I am somewhat surprised and not surprised at the impressions. I am not surprised at the reaction to a technical camera (intended for landscape, among other things) that limits shift to 12mm and does not provide any tilt capability. But I am surprised at the dismissiveness toward the technology, in particular, the X Shutter itself.

    Currently we are in a void for shutters. And Global Shutters are years and years away (7 years? 8 years?). Copal shutters are gone, production on the Sinar e250 shutter has been stalled for at least 8 months now with no word of starting back up. So we're left with the Aperture Mount, which has no shutter at all.

    So my surprise is that no one seems to be giving much credit to a brand new, incredibly robust and precise shutter system that extends to 1/1000th of a second, and that can be completely operated from behind the camera. That has surprised me.

    From a cost standpoint, yes these components are expensive, but not really much more expensive than standard technical cameras and lenses.

    I do understand the lack of tilt and expansive movements being a non-starter for some. And if so, then this camera may not be for you. But I do also feel that the target for Phase One with this product was for a very small footprint camera system. At any rate, I am encouraged at the path that has been started with the XT.


    Steve Hendrix/CI
    Last edited by Steve Hendrix; 26th September 2019 at 09:23.
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  50. #50
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    Re: Phase One XT Camera Revelations and Considerations

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix View Post
    As noted in multiple places, the finalized version of the XT firmware is now here. This firmware also has added some additional features and even some changes from the beta version previously in place. There are some important installation notes in the below link, please read in detail.

    Phase One IQ4/XT Firmware Update Notes

    ** Note that for use on non-XT camera bodies, the only hard button exposure control you have while in Live View is ISO. It has been stated elsewhere that exposure control includes aperture and shutter speed, but this is not the case. While we would expect shutter speed to make its way into the hard button control elements eventually for non-XT camera use (via Electronic Shutter), it doesn't make any sense that aperture would be listed, since there is no aperture control from the interface possible off of the XT.


    Steve Hendrix/CI
    Just testing the new firmware, with IQ4 150MP on the XF, and I have hard-button control over all of the exposure parameters, not just ISO.

    Assuming by 'non-XT bodies' you mean other non-Phase One bodies?
    Al Simmons
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