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Query regarding value. Taking first steps into Digital Medium Format.

lottic

New member
Hi everyone,

For the couple of years or so I have been very interested in delving into digital medium format, however it has always remained a pipe dream with its price point. I primarily shoot still life, food and product photography. I had recently come across an offer for an older generation digital medium format system: a Phase One 645DF Body, P45+ Digital Back and an 80mm Schneider Kreuznach LS Lens (among the standard accessories such as batteries and cables) for a total of $3100 USD, which is reasonably within my budget.

I currently shoot micro-four thirds with an Olympus E-M1 Mark II; and I probably will continue to do so when travelling for the small form factor, and so I'm aware of the size difference between the two systems; and I would predominantly be using the 645 in studio under controlled conditions and lighting.

I would love some input on opinions; is this good value? Would this be a reasonable starting point getting into medium format? I certainly love the idea of a modular system which can be upgraded steadily over time.

Thanks!
 

onasj

Active member
Value is such a subjective and context-dependent criterion, but in my opinion for most serious photographers, the best value in digital photography currently lies in the 35 mm full-frame segment, which has evolved extensively with many impressive technical advances and continues to keep prices down through old-fashioned competition. On a photography-quality-per-dollar basis (what I assume you mean by value) something like a Sony a7III or (if you need higher resolution) Sony a7Riii is pretty hard to beat. I suspect the quality of the A7riii will rival that of a P45+ for most use cases, and I'm sure it will be much more nimble and portable.

Medium format is really about capturing the highest image quality possible, with the typical trade-offs of cost, size, and "nimbleness". I wouldn't recommend MF if value is a priority, honestly, even though I'm a huge MF fan.

Hi everyone,

For the couple of years or so I have been very interested in delving into digital medium format, however it has always remained a pipe dream with its price point. I primarily shoot still life, food and product photography. I had recently come across an offer for an older generation digital medium format system: a Phase One 645DF Body, P45+ Digital Back and an 80mm Schneider Kreuznach LS Lens (among the standard accessories such as batteries and cables) for a total of $3100 USD, which is reasonably within my budget.

I currently shoot micro-four thirds with an Olympus E-M1 Mark II; and I probably will continue to do so when travelling for the small form factor, and so I'm aware of the size difference between the two systems; and I would predominantly be using the 645 in studio under controlled conditions and lighting.

I would love some input on opinions; is this good value? Would this be a reasonable starting point getting into medium format? I certainly love the idea of a modular system which can be upgraded steadily over time.

Thanks!
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
I've been working with photographers on the selection of, and use of, medium format gear for 12 years and I don't think I could tell you how to calculate "value" in any objective way.

My question would be: have you used the kit you're considering buying, or a kit similar to it?

A P45/DF/80LS kit and a E-M1 M2 kit share almost nothing in common, either in advantages or disadvantages. They are very very different cameras in almost every way.

I see, very frequently, photographers making the mistake of finding a good deal and then asking if it's the right kit for them. Instead I strongly suggest finding out what the right kit is for you, and then searching for a good deal on that kit. The right price on the wrong kit is still a waste of money. I'm not saying the P45+ is wrong (or right) for you; that would take a lot more information and conversation.
 

Abstraction

Well-known member
The way I assess value is by asking the following questions:

  1. What will this system do for me that others won't?
  2. Are there other, less expensive systems that will come close enough to doing what I want?
  3. What is the price difference between what I want and "good enough?"
  4. How long will this system last me vs a less expensive system that's good enough?

If you answer these questions, younwill know whether or not the system you're considering holds value for you.
 

dave.gt

Well-known member
Hahahaha! Dante is alive and well. I am sure Ken will agree!:ROTFL:

Welcome to our little window in the world.:)

There is some Truth in the Harley Davidson mantra: if you have to ask you don't understand. It took me years to understand but when I rode my first Harley, I found my perfect place in a lifetime of riding.

In 2017, Steve Hendrix introduced me to MF after I did the research required to move forward. He and the entire staff at CI became a great resource as well as friends in the last few years and I can never go back to smaller formats except for special tasks that are purely personal and I have a lot of those projects, too.

My advice to you is to contact a dealer of your choice. New or used, whatever brand. Make the right decision and avoid buying twice.

Good luck on your journey in this Divine Comedy.:thumbup:
 
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darr

Well-known member
I cannot comment on the camera, but I do own a P45 Phase One db (AFAIK it is identical to P45+ minus longer exposure times) and also a Hasselblad CFV-50c db. The P45 was my first db that I purchased used in 2010 (~ $11k if I remember correctly) and the CFV-50c I purchased new shortly after it came out for $12k. The P45 was used with my ALPA Max and ground glass bc even tho it has a menu option that says "Live View", it does NOT have LV. The CFV-50c does have LV and I focus off LV when using it and get 100% in focus images.

I used the P45 for a few years, it is a good back if you will be using a ground glass or tethering as I do not know how well it will focus via camera. My P45 missed focus 90% of the time when mated with my Mamiya RZ Pro D II and a magnifier bc LV does not exists on the P45 backs, and the margin of error for misfocus is greater with a sensor plane than with a film plane. Today my P45 is used to digitize film with a copy stand, ALPA TC and SK 120 M lens. It is tethered to a laptop and does a good job. I thought about selling it at one time, but since it lost most of its monetary value, I felt it gained better value as part of my digital workstation for film.

The unfortunate thing with a lot of medium format digital (MFD) gear is unless you live close to where it is being sold, you probably cannot try it out before you pull the trigger. There is much more than the digital back that comes into play when value is measured. Ergonomics and shooting checklist is more important IMO than the digital back in the beginning of the MFD journey. If a camera and its components do not mesh well with the user, then it gets in the way of shooting and the photographer is likely not to use it as much as another piece of gear that feels more natural to them. If you are not already shooting medium format either digital or film, you need to be aware that the girth and weight will be much greater than anything APS-C let alone M43.

I have had a career using technical cameras and still today I choose to shoot a 4x5 Linhof, a variety of medium format film and digital cameras and a few Fujifilm APS-C cameras. They are all different and they all serve a purpose for my shooting needs. My commercial background is in product and portraiture. If I had it to do all over with MFD today, I would seriously look into a Fuji 50s or 50r for better value. You will not go wrong with a newer sensor and you can pick them up on the used market within your budget.

Kind regards,
Darr
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
The unfortunate thing with a lot of medium format digital (MFD) gear is unless you live close to where it is being sold, you probably cannot try it out before you pull the trigger.
That's a strange thing to say. We can ship a system anywhere in the USA by overnight, and count the rental toward any purchase made. It's a great way to see if a system is a good fit in the real world, not just on paper. I see such a shipment go out at least once every week.
 
Short answer, nope.

Long forum answer:

I have a full 4150 and XF and Arca system. I love them, they feel like modern tools. With the 4150, I no longer have to compromise like I did with the older backs.

Shot counts are going up every year, turnarounds are faster, more content is needed. Going backwards generationally would be a misstep in my opinion. The P45+ would slow you down, and not in the romantic way the guys talk about when they put their camera on sticks or go back to film. It will slow you down in frustrating ways and will inhibit you creatively. If your clients canÂ’t pay for your camera, neither can you.

In fact I have a friend who recently bought a P45+ kit from a dealer, and I think it was a tremendous mistake. Worse workflow, missed photos, no trade in value, not even a great write off on the taxes.

If you were making prints of large sizes or needed to be shooting for multiple potential crops, medium format is worth it. In almost every other respect it isn’t. The files are a dream to work with, and you can really **** up and still save your shots. However, it sounds like you’re in a controlled setting, and you likely handle your own RT, so unlikely to need that safety net.

The 35mm cameras out there are incredible, Fast AF, low weight, small footprint, feature rich, inexpensive, high MP count available, repaired all over the world, rented all over the world, great DR. I carry one as a backup on every gig.

Nailing focus on a 150mp and seeing it in a lifesize print is magical, no doubt. I was gobsmacked the first time I saw it. But I bet you have to try 4 or 5 more times to nail focus than you do with a 35mm, not to mention how many more times you’d try with a P45+ and DF with no live view.

Also, if you’re focus stacking, get ready to add some more files to the stack because that DOF is razor thin. Now imagine missing parts or misordering of the stack because you don’t have Live View and the focus throw on those lenses are prohibitively short. Not to mention, the processing time in the back and the time it takes for a file to get there, check focus, see you were off. Shoot again, slow recycle, and repeat. It’s a losing battle, and you aren’t getting hired again.

I can’t see what would be the allure of MF for you, other than a cosmic je ne sais quoi “look” that MF is supposed to have. If you have a hard-on for shallow depth of field, clinical glass, and carpal tunnel - have I got the thing for you.

If I’m thinking about your camera while looking at your pictures, you’ve got bigger problems than the camera. Put $3100 into a spec shoot and stretch yourself. The folks on the forum telling you “cool tree” “beautiful rock” “great barn” aren’t paying your bills.

If you don’t have bills and want a top of the line, crop an eyelash of an ant from an airplane, camera then go for the 4150 and some BR lenses. They really are incredible.

Hope this is helpful for you to find a tool that can enable your creativity.
 
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darr

Well-known member
That's a strange thing to say. We can ship a system anywhere in the USA by overnight, and count the rental toward any purchase made. It's a great way to see if a system is a good fit in the real world, not just on paper. I see such a shipment go out at least once every week.
Well of course you will with a proper line of credit and insurance in place, but Doug you are not the only seller.
There is a lot of digital medium format gear for sale elsewhere and they never offer a tryout period, unless the eBay return policy is used.
 

algrove

Well-known member
1.I read that Phase does not support the P45+ any longer. I used one for many years and loved it.

2.If you are serious about getting into MF reevaluate your budget and look at the payback for that system. Do not fudge on the payback end of it as that is your true measure of what it will get you in sales volume and time to recover the cost. Recovering the cost is just the beginning as it has to pay for itself. Ask yourself if MF will get you more business or better images. Are your current customers demanding MF.

3.With all the new MF gear out there find something used within that #2 above budget, if it's a go.

4. Right now it seems Fuji has set the lowest prices for new gear so used Fuji gear just might get you what you want, but $3100 is not much when thinking about getting into MF.

5.The old 645DF many complained about and perhaps a 120 macro might better suit your needs.

6.Perhaps renting some MF gear for a specific job is a good approach.

My 2c
 
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Shashin

Well-known member
If I were looking for a camera system for MFD, I would go to a Fuji 50MP body. It is a great camera with good lenses to match. If you wanted to move to using a technical/view camera, you could then mate the Fuji body with medium-format film lenses or large format lenses with an Cambo Actus view camera. That would make for a very flexible system without breaking the bank, in relative terms.

If you did not need movements, then I would look at the Pentax 645D or 645Z. I would rank the 645D above the Phase DF and 45+ back in terms of quality and usability. The lenses that are available from Pentax are on par and more readily available and cheaper. I have a 645D. Both manual focus and AF versions of the 120mm macro are wonderful. If you wanted movements in a studio with the Pentax, the Novoflex Universal Bellows system is your only real option, but it has its querks.

If you are doing this primarily for movements, then I might skip the DF body all together, and simply get the P45+ back and put it on a Cambo Actus DB. You can then marry that with a lot of optics. While the P45+ can make great images, there is a learning curve and not a lot of forgiveness--lens cast is one thing you will need to learn to correct. But even here, a Fuji GFX on a Cambo Actus would be my choice.
 

algrove

Well-known member
You know there is one thing that really gets me and that is when someone new to this site asks for help and/or suggestions and then never gives a thank you and seemingly ignores all assistance requested. It happens all too often these days and pretty soon some of us will just stop helping newbies.
 

Mexecutioner

Well-known member
You know there is one thing that really gets me and that is when someone new to this site asks for help and/or suggestions and then never gives a thank you and seemingly ignores all assistance requested. It happens all too often these days and pretty soon some of us will just stop helping newbies.
I find it annoying and understand how frustrating it can be for many of you guys that have provided really well thought advice and helpful elaborate answers to his original questions. I have really enjoyed my short time in this forum (have been shooting MF for less than a year) and even when I don’t ask many questions I have learned volumes by reading your replies and valuable contributions. Sad that many don’t express their gratitude, I am certainly appreciative of everyone’s time and thank you all for sharing your experience.

Rodrigo
 

lottic

New member
You know there is one thing that really gets me and that is when someone new to this site asks for help and/or suggestions and then never gives a thank you and seemingly ignores all assistance requested. It happens all too often these days and pretty soon some of us will just stop helping newbies.
These answers have been incredibly helpful, and I've taken a step back to reconsider, this forum may as well have saved me a lot of money and heartache! I'm based in New Zealand; and I asked the question just after midnight! I want to thank everyone for their input. I think I've definitely taken the wrong approach; if I'm asking questions about value I haven't put enough thought into whether MF will truly benefit my professional career. Surprisingly, I have had clients ask whether I use a medium format system; but in the end; even if I have said no, its never really affected me in getting the job; I had this idea in mind that my portfolio was just getting stale; and thought the benefits of MF could really take it to the next level. Guess it's the gearhead in me!

That being said, there is something romantic about medium format for me. While I may not necessarily use it in a professional sense, seeing the limitations of the <$5k systems, I might go ahead and save up some more for a GFX!
 

MrSmith

Member
as somebody who shoots still-life/product, if i was in your situation i would put my money towards a cambo actus and an 80mm digitar.

i feel this will expand your shooting experience and give tangible results re image quality that moving to old MFD tech with fixed lenses will not.
you could always add a back to this set-up at a later date (or full frame 35mm of high MP)
 

Audii-Dudii

Active member
If you are doing this primarily for movements, then I might skip the DF body all together, and simply get the P45+ back and put it on a Cambo Actus DB. You can then marry that with a lot of optics. While the P45+ can make great images, there is a learning curve and not a lot of forgiveness--lens cast is one thing you will need to learn to correct.
Just a note to point out the Actus DB was designed for use with CMOS backs that have a decent Live View function, neither of which is true for the P45+ back. This means composing and focusing an image with a P45+ without a sliding adapter with a ground glass will be a very difficult and clumsy process indeed.

(And to be honest, it will still be somewhat difficult and clumsy to compose and focus an image even with a sliding adapter with a ground glass if you've been spoiled by doing so using a high-res LCD or external HDMI monitor, as I have been over the past few years.)
 

Landscapelover

Senior Subscriber Member
Welcome to MF forum!

For budget in mind, you should consider Fuji GFX 50R. You can get a lot of great deals for used ones at FM Forums. You should wait to buy when Fuji have discounts. They have it quite frequently. The last time was few months ago, they discounted $550 for all lenses. If you want to buy used, it's even cheaper. During the discount, you can buy the GFX 50R and 32-64 for ~ $4, 200 (second hand at FM Forums). If you don't like them, you can sell them back after the discount period. You can even make a little bit of money:) By buying Fuji, you've bought future as it's a stable and great company with many future lenses lining up. The picture quality of Fuji is 2nd to none. I can comment with confidence because I've owned the Phase One IQ 4150. I've been a big fan of fuji (FILM) cameras for many years. They look quite ugly but work! At least they maintain their looks for dacades. Look on the bright side, at least they have their own styles :)

In the mean time, you use whatever you've had. Using medium format won't make your pictures better but will certainly make your bank account smaller. Be warned :)

Best

Pramote
 
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Godfrey

Well-known member
Been reading this thread because I'm just stepping into the MFDigital world with the acquisition of the Hassy 907x/CFV50cII Special Edition in a couple of months.

The question of 'value' is always difficult to answer because value is a very slippery thing. Most people think of value in terms of money ... a perfectly fine thing to assign to the word if you're evaluating things on the basis of net profitability ... but value to me often has little to do with money and much more to do with whether the thing I'm looking at will give me the results I want. If it will, then it is valuable, if it won't it isn't particularly valuable.

I no longer count on my photography to net my income; this justifies my valuation scheme being detached from the monetary value of whatever I'm looking at. I look at what I can get out of particular cameras and lenses very differently now compared to when I was shooting for my income... :D

To me, a large part of the value of the Hasselblad kit I'm buying (regardless of its huge price) is how I can use it with a range of existing equipment (Hasselblad V system bodies and lenses as well as Leica R and M lenses, as well as Hasselblad XCD lenses) that I already own. That ameliorates to a great degree the huge amount of money that I'm spending for it, and the larger format sensor nets an advantageous difference in the imaging qualities of those existing bits of equipment (as well as it will likely show up some new deficiencies I'll need to work around). I am expecting that I'll get a lot of what I've been looking for out of it ... well, hoping, anyway. :) Because there really is no knowing for sure until I have the equipment in hand and start working with it.

I'd never have found any justification for this kind of value when I was doing my photo business, because for the work I was doing this kind of imaging quality would never have netted any increase in profit to justify it; it would have been simply an extraordinary expense with little return.

G
 

Landscapelover

Senior Subscriber Member
I've just wanted to remind the OP has a low budget. That's why Hasselblad X1D or Phase One IQ are not his options. If he has unlimited funding, the XCD II may be his great choice.
 

Landscapelover

Senior Subscriber Member
I don't think the P45+ is a good choice for you. I used it shortly before. IQ was great but you may not like the LCD, its interface and limited ISO. Using the P1 645 DF can be painful and it doesn't make sense any more to buy it compared to new cameras. If things don't work out, it will be very difficult for you to sell them.

I'd like to share the story. I bought a P25 with 25, 000 actuations long time ago. I was under impression there was no moving part and it'd last forever. I was wrong! One day without warning, I couldn't turn on the back. The cost of repair was very expensive. Fortunately, upgrading to the new Hasselblad HCD 40 did not require a working condition DB. Otherwise, I'd have very expensive paper weight.

I hope it helps, from someone who used the P1 P DB before.


Hi everyone,

For the couple of years or so I have been very interested in delving into digital medium format, however it has always remained a pipe dream with its price point. I primarily shoot still life, food and product photography. I had recently come across an offer for an older generation digital medium format system: a Phase One 645DF Body, P45+ Digital Back and an 80mm Schneider Kreuznach LS Lens (among the standard accessories such as batteries and cables) for a total of $3100 USD, which is reasonably within my budget.

I currently shoot micro-four thirds with an Olympus E-M1 Mark II; and I probably will continue to do so when travelling for the small form factor, and so I'm aware of the size difference between the two systems; and I would predominantly be using the 645 in studio under controlled conditions and lighting.

I would love some input on opinions; is this good value? Would this be a reasonable starting point getting into medium format? I certainly love the idea of a modular system which can be upgraded steadily over time.

Thanks!
 
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