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Thread: More Price Wars?

  1. #51
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: More Price Wars?

    Okay lets put a hold on individual members on the forum. This is a area that has strong rules of engagement here on GetDPI. I DO NOT want this to get out of hand. Thanks Guy.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Senior Member bensonga's Avatar
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    Re: More Price Wars?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    If you're using it, then it has value, if not then it was a waste of money at any price.
    Ouch! That one hit home. Damn....time to get the 503CWD out of the closet! No time to waste....my wife already suspects that what Marc just said about a "waste of money" is true!

    I still think it's a shame that Hasselblad hasn't dropped the price on the CFV back. I guess those of us in the V-series camp just don't show up on the "there's good money to be made here" radar anymore. Oh well, I'm glad I got mine when I did...even if I don't use it as often as I should.

    Gary
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  3. #53
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    Re: More Price Wars?

    Quote Originally Posted by woodyspedden View Post
    Actually I knew Steve well enough as I bought an H3DII-39 with the 28 and 100 lenses (in addition to the kit 80) from him in June of this year...[snip]....I'm sorry if it is perceived that I said what I did about a guy who has many many friends and former customers here and elsewhere. I was part of that group as well.

    Woody
    Gotcha Woody... I'm bowing out as well, as I obviously don't have much of a dog in this hunt...

    Guy (and everyone else)... sorry to get OT and personal.

    Over and out

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    Re: More Price Wars?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix/Phase One View Post
    The camera plus lens adds $2,000. I respectfully disagree with your high price assessment. Our price is not "high". Our solution is a preferred solution versus the competition for many, regardless of whether we are the price leader or slightly higher in price.
    Fair enough on chosen pricing, although at the 15k price point, the difference in value is the cost of an H3DII + HC 80, which are priced higher than the Mamiya camera kit.

    Where the price difference really shows up is in refurbished and demo units, where the Phase prices are distinctly higher than Hasselblad's. A refurbished P30+ costs $3k more than a complete H3DII-31 kit, both from dealers, for example.
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: More Price Wars?

    Quote Originally Posted by bensonga View Post
    Ouch! That one hit home. Damn....time to get the 503CWD out of the closet! No time to waste....my wife already suspects that what Marc just said about a "waste of money" is true!

    I still think it's a shame that Hasselblad hasn't dropped the price on the CFV back. I guess those of us in the V-series camp just don't show up on the "there's good money to be made here" radar anymore. Oh well, I'm glad I got mine when I did...even if I don't use it as often as I should.

    Gary
    Alaska
    Gary, I gotta agree with you ... again.

    Hassey should've dropped the CFV price also. We both know it's a great back, and a wonderful addition for any V camera shooter. A $6K price point would drag in all kinds of new users.
    But I fear what Guy says is true ... it won't lead to ancillary sales, so it has to be a profit center in itself. However, the 503CWD kit with Zeiss 40IF is a decent deal given how much that lens costs alone. I think the 16 meg square sensor will be the next victim, like the 22 meg that Kodak discontinued. A shame since those big pixels produce their own kind of magic.

    As to value of using/shooting, it isn't frequency as much as what you do with it isn't it? I don't use the CFV nearly as much as my 35mm DSLRs or M8 ... or even the H3D-II/31. But when that's what I want creatively it's there ready to make images.

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    Re: More Price Wars?

    Quote Originally Posted by dseelig View Post
    I am looking forward to getting a 39 mp back for around 7 grand in a year or two. I am a full time pro, but I shoot sports, music and news to make a living a back would strickly be for my personal work so a luxury I am looking forward too unlees leica comes out with that full frame rangefinder. Keep going price wars.
    That's the rub isn't it? It really depends on priorities and needs.

    Personally, my business priorities have changed dramatically in this rotten economy ... and my wedding business, which was more of a side-line before compared to commercial work, is now the main bread earner (thank God!). So something like a the Sony A900 became way more important than another MF digital back.

    For sure, with my current business priorities, a FF Leica M9 would be far more attractive than adding a functionally redundant MF Leica S2 to my gear closet.

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    Re: More Price Wars?

    Right now I doubt the S2 is viable. I'll be surprised if it is released at all, or if it is, it will be at a lower than expected price. Its far too niche to secure volume sales at the prices I have seen.

    The MF digital camera / back market is small even in good times. In a recession, its smaller. The Phase One buy-in to Mamiya is a survival strategy as much as anything, for both sides.

    I've just been reading this, a brief and very intersesting hostory of Kodak digital cameras. Apparently they never made money for Kodak, and as we all know they ceased production of digital cameras with the DCS Pro SLR/n and c models several years ago. With 25mp digtal SLR's now available for not that much money, and no doubt more to come, I predict that in a few years time, the medium format digital market will have shrunk a lot further and will be populated by very specialised niche manufacturers.
    Quentin Bargate
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    Re: More Price Wars?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Well not sure about a game but a phone call to a dealer will get you a price. Phase and Hassy are different in the way they sell there gear. Phase is more dealer oriented and Hassy is both dealer and retail oriented. They just work differently. I don't consider one good or bad over the other. Also any price posted is somewhat worthless anyway. You want a real price get a quote in writing from any of them. We have to remember also when you buy a Hassy it has to come with a body , when you buy a Phase it does not so pricing will be different in those terms as well.
    I've not had very good luck in that regard Guy ... (I suspect you have more juice with dealers than I do ) Certainly not from Hasselblad ... I've been searching for a simple 22 meg back for my H2F kit ... and a reconditioned older CFH/22 without the bigger LCD and improved sensor filter is $9,250. with seemingly no room to bargain ... that's tough to swallow when Hassey is selling brand new, full warranty H3D-II/31 Kits (sans 80/2.8 lens) with the improvements for a few K more.

    I've also tried to secure a Phase back for my 503CW ... and the published refurb prices for V mount Phase one P25s seems to be set in stone.

    Note to any Hassey dealer: a good deal on a good CF/22 for my H2F would be met with a smile and withdrawal from my fortress like money market account


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    Re: More Price Wars?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quentin_Bargate View Post
    Right now I doubt the S2 is viable. I'll be surprised if it is released at all, or if it is, it will be at a lower than expected price. Its far too niche to secure volume sales at the prices I have seen.

    The MF digital camera / back market is small even in good times. In a recession, its smaller. The Phase One buy-in to Mamiya is a survival strategy as much as anything, for both sides.

    I've just been reading this, a brief and very interesting history of Kodak digital cameras. Apparently they never made money for Kodak, and as we all know they ceased production of digital cameras with the DCS Pro SLR/n and c models several years ago. With 25mp digital SLR's now available for not that much money, and no doubt more to come, I predict that in a few years time, the medium format digital market will have shrunk a lot further and will be populated by very specialized niche manufacturers.
    I think that's an astute observation.

    Here's a reality aspect of the recent pricing by all three main makers of digital backs that could well affect the S2:

    Most shooters that need MFD already have some system in place to meet those needs ... especially Pros. What this pricing move has done is further reduced the value of what you already have on the used market. Think of it ... not long ago a new H3D-II/31 was around $25K, now it's $15K!

    In effect, it makes swapping systems even LESS attractive no matter how emotionally attracted you may be to the siren song of the S2.

    For me, selling off my H3D-II/31 would mean such a haircut as to leave me bald as a cue ball financially ... and for what? Occasionally the brain DOES kick in and take over as reality sets in. The ROI of my H3D-II/31 is in the using, most certainly not anything else. Fortunately, the camera does exactly what I bought it for and does it reliably and well ... right now that's all that really matters.

    The ONLY thing on my wish list is a FF M9 ... that's the biggest need gap in digital photography today, and one I'd gladly pony up for.

  10. #60
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: More Price Wars?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    I've not had very good luck in that regard Guy ... (I suspect you have more juice with dealers than I do ) Certainly not from Hasselblad ... I've been searching for a simple 22 meg back for my H2F kit ... and a reconditioned older CFH/22 without the bigger LCD and improved sensor filter is $9,250. with seemingly no room to bargain ... that's tough to swallow when Hassey is selling brand new, full warranty H3D-II/31 Kits (sans 80/2.8 lens) with the improvements for a few K more.

    I've also tried to secure a Phase back for my 503CW ... and the published refurb prices for V mount Phase one P25s seems to be set in stone.

    Note to any Hassey dealer: a good deal on a good CF/22 for my H2F would be met with a smile and withdrawal from my fortress like money market account


    I'm a little surprised about that. You would think those backs in the square format for the V would sell at a very low price point. Certainly not the newest format or back out there.
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    Re: More Price Wars?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I'm a little surprised about that. You would think those backs in the square format for the V would sell at a very low price point. Certainly not the newest format or back out there.
    The CFV back is unique in that it's the only one that doesn't require any sync cord from lens to back when mounted to a V camera ... and the only one that works at all shutter speeds on a 200 series focal plane camera at all ... plus it looks exactly like the chrome edged V film backs cosmetically ... which are two of it's main selling features over and above just being a 16 meg square like many other makers offer.

    There isn't any advantage to Hasselblad in terms of upsell since this is a one of a kind back ... or selling more accessory gear for the V series which can be had used most anywhere ... so I guess some of us V users are lucky they made the CFV at all.

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    Re: More Price Wars?

    Geez, Hasselblad could get the upsell if they would just make a 22MP, 31MP or 39MP CFV! They have built their own jail here.

    Anyway, the more I think about the S2, the more I think that it is not really aimed at cannibalizing the MF market, but rather to give an easy step up for a 1Ds3 or D3x using pro who wants a little more, without a change of lifestyle. A few have probably made the jump to MF and are frustrated with the limitations, quality or workflow, but the majority will come from below. Successful FF-35mm pros who want to separate from the crowds. Hasselblad's problem is that they (apparently) saw themselves being in this position, and the Leica S2 squeezes in between. It will be interesting to see what happens when the S2 is released.
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    Re: More Price Wars?

    Some maybe frustrated but i certainly am not. You want high quality files than the work involved is worth the effort putting into it. I do not find it limiting. This goes back to a statement I said earlier and as you progress in format going up the more work or more effort goes into it. Have you ever shot a 8x 10 view camera. Certainly more effort in that than MF. To me and I have been shooting MF since the beginning of time it is not a whole lot different than anything else in many ways . Lens on camera and shoot. The M8 is just as hard as a MF camera you have to work it. We are far away from P&S camera and again to me 35mm is not the comparable camera. You want to compare than let's compare to 4x5 film because that is the equal ground when it comes to quality of file NOT 35mm. MF was and is designed to give high quality files and any limitations to it are more user issues than anything else. I use it for everything and yes maybe not the most useful tool to get it done but with work and effort i get the results. Limitations are in peoples heads not the camera's. Whatever physical limitations there are in any camera it is up to the user to work around it and adjust. WE have to be adaptable to whatever we pick up that day to actually work with.

    Sports do we really need 10 FPS NO YOU DO NOT. What the heck EVER happened to the decisive moment. Let's remember not long ago this stuff was being done with a speed graphic 4x5 and many great sports shooters got amazing images with it and considered slower than taking a dump. Sorry for the graphic there but you get the idea. We are spoiled as hell and it gets worse and worse with every new generation of digital wonder that hits the streets.We are forgetting about photography and how to get images and more focused on what we can't do. Why do we put those so called limitations on ourselves or think our gear has them. Honestly I really hate that we are giving up on our abilities and just calling it a day and say this is a PITA to work with and so on.

    Maybe I come at this differently than most but I have been a shooter all my life since I was 15 years old and any camera limitations we learned to work around them. I shot Kodachome with no Polaroid for years with 10 lights on a set . Talk about guessing and limitations. I would have KILLED for a LCD screen back in the 60,70,80 and 90's.

    Now we complain it's not big enough. Sometimes I bang my head on these topics. We need to focus on what WE can do not what a camera can't do. Sorry that was my Saturday morning pep talk and not directed at anyone just my second espresso thoughts. LOL

    If I could change the tide i would to focus on what we can do than what we can't do, maybe that is why I love to teach. I get this stuff off my chest .
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: More Price Wars?

    What the heck that had to do with pricing I have no idea. ROTFLMAO
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
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    Re: More Price Wars?

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Fair enough on chosen pricing, although at the 15k price point, the difference in value is the cost of an H3DII + HC 80, which are priced higher than the Mamiya camera kit.

    Where the price difference really shows up is in refurbished and demo units, where the Phase prices are distinctly higher than Hasselblad's. A refurbished P30+ costs $3k more than a complete H3DII-31 kit, both from dealers, for example.

    Cartsen - I'm sorry I didn't quite follow your first statement here.

    On the second, how much are H3DII-31 refurbished (not to be confused with demo units, used, etc) units going for?


    Steve Hendrix
    Phase One

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    Re: More Price Wars?

    Guy,
    I do not think many would argue with your points (except some idiot sports shooter like me over the need for 10fps speed....not to rip off 10+ frames, but to get those 2-3 frames at just the right moment to show a transition or something....but I digress).

    Personally, all of this "want", "need", and other talk is sort of stemming from our growing appreciation and dependence on technology. I think that is great. If there is really good tech to help things out, why not use it. However, like you and many others that have been shooting for some time, technology cannot replace genuine knowledge and skills, nor should it for creative things. It can make lots of things a bit easier, but only if one really has the fundamentals that are not changing.....light, direction and intensity, creative composition, timing, etc.

    I think in some cases, the technology advancements are both fantastic and frightening. Many do want all the latest features for some things, but the pace of change for some of that stuff easily outstrips our abilities to replace gear economically to incorporate some of those things. Think about it.....there has only been "live view" on digicams and DSLRs rather recently. Now we expect/want that feature on MFDBs. (Let's set aside the CCD v CMOS tech issues and just assume it could work easily.) All that does is replace the ground glass and loupe, for the most part unless one tethers to a large screen. Great feature that many would like to see, but how many folks would ditch their present backs just to get that? We say similar things about higher ISO, yet most folks still shoot in the 50-200 range, venturing to 400-800 only when pressed. Both are technologies that should/could be incorporated, but at what costs? The advances in some areas are supported by the shear volumes of sales in other areas, and with MF, that does not exist, because the prices have been very high due to lower volumes. The tech is pretty much the same, but the turnover to incorporate some of that tech is simply not there to match the cycle that some would like to see. (The one exception, I think, is the LCD. THAT is a pretty mature tech at this point, and it is hard to believe back makers cannot incorporate better displays than they have, especially since that is also the one thing that almost all shooters keep asking for....still mystifies me.)

    More to your points....we are, in general, a demanding and somewhat impatient lot, especially since Pandora's Box of technology has come along and been opened. The argument in favor is that if any of these features can reduce the time you need to spend fiddling around, that should be good, and they should be incorporated. Yet the number of devices being made and sold is still fairly small, so prices are quite high. That is an argument that I think is starting to unravel a bit. The story has always been that the gear costs so much more because the sensors cost so much to fab. Well, fabs have gotten a whole lot better and cheaper, so we should be seeing declines. The other part of this that we do not see is just how many sensor were fabbed and when. If we are to believe that all of these newly offered cheaper backs have sensors that were made from the first orders/batches, then why were the prices so high when the backs were first being sold?

    Well, like you, I am not sure where all of this is going in this discussion either.....time for me to get a second or third espresso myself ;-)

    LJ

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    Re: More Price Wars?

    With the first point, I just meant that the H3DII-31 kit includes the H3DII and the HC 80, with a combined value of more like $3k.

    Procentre in London sells demo (not refurbished...) units for 7000 Pounds. What is the significant difference between demo and refurbished, other than the obvious different history?
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: More Price Wars?

    Carsten,
    From what I understand, refurb units have gone back to the factory to check all components and bring things within spec, much as a new unit going out, but obviously having been used. That may include replacing parts that are worn or not meeting specs. Demos and other used gear is usually sold "as is", and has not had the cleaning, testing, adjusting to bring things to spec as a new unit, for the most part.

    LJ

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    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
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    Re: More Price Wars?

    Quote Originally Posted by woodyspedden View Post
    Actually I knew Steve well enough as I bought an H3DII-39 with the 28 and 100 lenses (in addition to the kit 80) from him in June of this year. Needless to say the competition was Phase and he was very pointed in his praise of the Hassy compared to the Phase. Of course this is to be expected as he represented Hassy and not Phase.) And of course he now reps Phase so Hassy is the competition. I would have expected Steve to take the high road and focus his commentaries on Phase positive attributes and not on his (now) analysis of Hassy weaknesses, as he sees them. Having spent over $30K with Steve (and his company PPR of Atlanta) and then watching the price reduction of almost 25% only weeks later without a word from either Steve or PPR I am simply no longer a fan!

    I would never have commented about anything regarding Steve had he not dissed his old firm and by implication let down his former customers. i don't like the tactics and said so. End of story. I won't respond to any more posts as these things start to flame and I don't want to be a part of that.

    I'm sorry if it is perceived that I said what I did about a guy who has many many friends and former customers here and elsewhere. I was part of that group as well.


    Woody


    I would love to let this go also, but unfortunately I do have a dog in it and it has been let out.

    Woody, I am disappointed you have made the statements you have because they are filled with inaccuracy. Let's speak factually. I have not dissed Hasselblad (and certainly not PPR, if that's what you meant) anywhere. The only statement I made in reaction to Hasselblad is that their price drops generate a lot of interest. They were the first to dramatically drop their prices, so they are now seen as a sort of price leader compared to their competitors, which they are not. Those are simply facts that I have pointed out.

    I think you'll find - as many people have - that I do not slam competitive products. I will discuss them and voice my opinions but I believe those opinions are certainly fair minded and well reasoned, and if they are not, I'll be the first to admit it.

    What surprises me the most Woody, is your account of your experience purchasing from me while at PPR. Let's get some things corrected:

    Last May, I saw on GetDPI that you were about to purchase a Phase One P45+from Lance Schad. I saw you lived in Fort Collins and I was going to Fort Collins that week to participate in a photographic conference. I asked if you'd wait until I arrived to show you an H3D. I showed you, you liked it. I became entangled in a nasty bidding war with Lance (the first, last, and only one). You did not spend $30,000. You spent $21,995 and you got the deal of the century which included an H3DII-39, a 28mm lens, and the CF adapter. At the time, the price of the H3DII-39 alone was $33,995! Even today with all of Hasselblad's price reductions, that would be a great deal. It was the only time I ever really attempted to compete with Phase One on price and I lost money on the deal - lost money. You were only too happy to accept the lower pricing...at the time. And you received the complete full service and support that we were known for as I took a number of calls from you at various hours and helped you with the situations youw ere encountering.

    Two months later - with no warning to their dealers!!! - Hasselblad suddenly dropped pricing. So excuse me for not telling you something I wasn't told of myself. PPR themselves also got caught with existing demo equipment that we were suddenly upside down in. So you're no longer a fan of someone who gave you the deal of the century and who got caught in an abrupt price reduction with no warning just as you were? Ok, then.

    You also seem to resent the fact that 2 months after you bought from PPR, I decided to make a job change. I had been at PPR 6 years and was ready for a change. You are the only customer of mine who seemed to have a problem with that. All of my other customers congratulated me and wished me well. The fact is, you still retained the support of PPR, and Hasselblad behind them. It is not like you were just left out in the cold.

    I have never "dissed" as you put it, Hasselblad, PPR, or any of my "old firms". While at PPR, I respected Phase One as a brand. Now at Phase One, I respect Hasselblad, Leaf, and Sinar as brands. But don't expect me not to compete. Woody, with all your experience, you of all people should know better than that. Ultimately, I feel badly that you feel this way, and hurt that you would - out of nowhere - voice these feelings publicly, rather than personally.

    Sorry everyone for the long public post.


    Steve Hendrix
    Phase One

  20. #70
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: More Price Wars?

    I think the basic fact is some systems cost more than others and no getting around it. I can't even think about buying a Sinar, maybe the body and back are in the same ballpark but the lenses are very costly. I think we see things on the glossy side and never actually do the math as a system of parts and only look at the part costs. I bet if we added this all up on a 5 lens kit brand new off the factory floor between all the systems it maybe just be a very revealing total number. We don't really buy parts but we do buy to add to the overall system. One lens from one OEM maybe 1k more than another OEM but it maybe reverse on another lens. I like to think system myself because ultimately that is what is in your bag and that is what you use is the system. Be interesting to see this from a top down view of the overall system cost. Not sure who would be more or less and maybe does not matter either because the all do things differently. Also we look at raw costs and not what the warranties and such things like that are. There is value in warranties and it does go into the price.
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  21. #71
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    Re: More Price Wars?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Now we complain it's not big enough. Sometimes I bang my head on these topics. We need to focus on what WE can do not what a camera can't do. Sorry that was my Saturday morning pep talk and not directed at anyone just my second espresso thoughts. LOL
    Preach on Brother... preach on.

    You're speakin' my language here.

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    Senior Member bensonga's Avatar
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    Re: More Price Wars?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    The CFV back is unique <snip>....so I guess some of us V users are lucky they made the CFV at all.
    Very true and as a relatively new Hasselblad V-series owner, I'm really glad they did make the CFV. For me, the 503CWD-II with the 40mm IF lens was a deal too good to pass up, even at the $12,995 full retail price I paid (with no hesitation or regrets). But I have friends (all of us non-pros) with V-series systems who would like to have the CFV back....but they aren't about to spend almost $10k for one.

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Geez, Hasselblad could get the upsell if they would just make a 22MP, 31MP or 39MP CFV!
    I agree....it's disappointing that there is no upgrade path for the 16mp CFV. I suppose the bean counters and marketers at Hasselblad know what they are doing.....but it's still a shame that this appears to be the end of the road.

    Gary
    Alaska

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    Re: More Price Wars?

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Geez, Hasselblad could get the upsell if they would just make a 22MP, 31MP or 39MP CFV! They have built their own jail here.

    Anyway, the more I think about the S2, the more I think that it is not really aimed at cannibalizing the MF market, but rather to give an easy step up for a 1Ds3 or D3x using pro who wants a little more, without a change of lifestyle. A few have probably made the jump to MF and are frustrated with the limitations, quality or workflow, but the majority will come from below. Successful FF-35mm pros who want to separate from the crowds. Hasselblad's problem is that they (apparently) saw themselves being in this position, and the Leica S2 squeezes in between. It will be interesting to see what happens when the S2 is released.
    Ever try to hold a V camera on it's side? Hassey doesn't have a rotating back system, and they aren't going to spend the R&D to make it happen either since that system has been slowly going bye-bye. A CFV sensor needs to be square or have a rotating sensor like the Leaf 54 ... which also won't happen since V users generally wouldn't spend that much cash on their 501CM. If one of the sensor makers comes up with a 48X48 or larger sensor, then maybe ... but I double doubt that'll happen either.

    If the S2 is to "Squeeze in" it'll have to be a "system" (camera and base lens) for around $10K with other basic WA and Tele workhorse lenses coming in at around $3-4K ... which would be highly uncharacteristic for Leica. My bet is that Ice Cream will be served in Hell before that happens
    Last edited by fotografz; 11th April 2009 at 11:16.

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    Re: More Price Wars?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quentin_Bargate View Post
    Right now I doubt the S2 is viable. I'll be surprised if it is released at all, or if it is, it will be at a lower than expected price. Its far too niche to secure volume sales at the prices I have seen.
    I suppose it all depends on what you define as 'volume sales'. With respect to Marc's response, I agree, the switchers from other MF systems (at least at first) is going to be negligible.

    But I don't think that Leica EVER succeeded at ANYTHING on the basis of being competitive, and that the success or failure of the S2 depends much more on the quality of output than it's price.

    If the quality really is good, then the convenience / speed / weather proofing / lenses is going to prove attractive to people.

    If Leica have built their business model on being 'competitive' rather than on being 'excellent' then it's clearly doomed . . . but excellence will find a market.

    I'm not a professional photographer, but even if a useable S2 kit is $50,000, then, if it comes up with the goods, it seems to be a reasonable business expense . . . Look at truck drivers . . . how much does a truck cost!!!! Certainly in my business that kind of expense is something one grimaces at and spends . . . if it's going to come up with the goods.


    Everyone here seems to be assuming that competitiveness is the only game. . . . .

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: More Price Wars?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    I suppose it all depends on what you define as 'volume sales'. With respect to Marc's response, I agree, the switchers from other MF systems (at least at first) is going to be negligible.

    But I don't think that Leica EVER succeeded at ANYTHING on the basis of being competitive, and that the success or failure of the S2 depends much more on the quality of output than it's price.

    If the quality really is good, then the convenience / speed / weather proofing / lenses is going to prove attractive to people.

    If Leica have built their business model on being 'competitive' rather than on being 'excellent' then it's clearly doomed . . . but excellence will find a market.

    I'm not a professional photographer, but even if a useable S2 kit is $50,000, then, if it comes up with the goods, it seems to be a reasonable business expense . . . Look at truck drivers . . . how much does a truck cost!!!! Certainly in my business that kind of expense is something one grimaces at and spends . . . if it's going to come up with the goods.


    Everyone here seems to be assuming that competitiveness is the only game. . . . .
    Hey Jonathan, I agree with much of what you have to say... but I think the dark horse here is the economy. Competitiveness does, indeed, rule the roost these day... take the 5dII as an example, especially in the regards to how many pros seem to choose it over the d3x.

    I don't think "competitiveness" will rule forever, but given the strong move towards non-print media as well as the ever encroaching quality of 35mm... the value proposition of the S2 is problematic. Not that Leica was ever about "value proposition"

    I do hope the S2 is all that it's been made out to be, but in the face of lower hassie/phase prices, one has to wonder about it. When all else fails (like with the d3x)... there are always doctors, lawyers, and dentists to buy into the leica system (and I don't mean that, at all, pejoratively!).

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    Re: More Price Wars?

    oh... and I have to add, laughingly... that I'm in the midst of setting up for a medium format purchase.

    ... so "value proposition" is lost on me as well

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    Re: More Price Wars?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Ever try to hold a V camera on it's side? Hassey doesn't have a rotating back system, and they aren't going to spend the R&D to make it happen either since that system has been slowly going bye-bye. A CFV sensor needs to be square or have a rotating sensor like the Leaf 54 ... which also won't happen since V users generally wouldn't spend that much cash on their 501CM. If one of the sensor makers comes up with a 48X48 or larger sensor, then maybe ... but I double doubt that'll happen either.

    If the S2 is to "Squeeze in" it'll have to be a "system" (camera and base lens) for around $10K with other basic WA and Tele workhorse lenses coming in at around $3-4K ... which would be highly uncharacteristic for Leica. My bet is that Ice Cream will be served in Hell before that happens
    they do have a 90 degree prism. I used mine sideways with the pm45 for years, but got funny looks from people (the ones not in the photograph)

    count me as another wisher for a larger cfv back. clearly there is not enough in it for them to bother.

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    Re: More Price Wars?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    I suppose it all depends on what you define as 'volume sales'. With respect to Marc's response, I agree, the switchers from other MF systems (at least at first) is going to be negligible.

    But I don't think that Leica EVER succeeded at ANYTHING on the basis of being competitive, and that the success or failure of the S2 depends much more on the quality of output than it's price.

    If the quality really is good, then the convenience / speed / weather proofing / lenses is going to prove attractive to people.

    If Leica have built their business model on being 'competitive' rather than on being 'excellent' then it's clearly doomed . . . but excellence will find a market.

    I'm not a professional photographer, but even if a useable S2 kit is $50,000, then, if it comes up with the goods, it seems to be a reasonable business expense . . . Look at truck drivers . . . how much does a truck cost!!!! Certainly in my business that kind of expense is something one grimaces at and spends . . . if it's going to come up with the goods.


    Everyone here seems to be assuming that competitiveness is the only game. . . . .
    Some good points about the quality output. However, a competitive set always exists, and for a long time in 35mm there really wasn't an IQ competitor to Leica. This may be a different matter given the MF IQ competitive set.

    50K sounds reasonable to you maybe, but not to just about any working pro that I know. Some top end shooters are even hurting right now. The Hy6 and Schnieder lenses topped in at about 50K for a basic 3 lens kit ... but you could use existing Rollei lenses on it ... even then, it was really hard to discern a difference that was worth 50K + the bath you'd take on dumping your current gear.

    Would I like a S2, you bet! Will I buy one? Don't bet on it. I tested the Hy6 and like it a lot, but didn't buy it. Good thing too with the way prices are going, and the rotten economy.

    BTW, your truck driver analogy has to be completed ... you'd have to factor in that trucking revenue had dropped like a stone ... then ask whether the truck driver would buy a new truck or keep at it with his/her existing rig.

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    Re: More Price Wars?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shelby Lewis View Post
    oh... and I have to add, laughingly... that I'm in the midst of setting up for a medium format purchase.

    ... so "value proposition" is lost on me as well
    Hey Shelby

    Hope you guys are all doing well after the violent weather.

    Woody

  30. #80
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    Re: More Price Wars?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    I suppose it all depends on what you define as 'volume sales'. With respect to Marc's response, I agree, the switchers from other MF systems (at least at first) is going to be negligible.

    But I don't think that Leica EVER succeeded at ANYTHING on the basis of being competitive, and that the success or failure of the S2 depends much more on the quality of output than it's price.

    If the quality really is good, then the convenience / speed / weather proofing / lenses is going to prove attractive to people.

    If Leica have built their business model on being 'competitive' rather than on being 'excellent' then it's clearly doomed . . . but excellence will find a market.

    I'm not a professional photographer, but even if a useable S2 kit is $50,000, then, if it comes up with the goods, it seems to be a reasonable business expense . . . Look at truck drivers . . . how much does a truck cost!!!! Certainly in my business that kind of expense is something one grimaces at and spends . . . if it's going to come up with the goods.


    Everyone here seems to be assuming that competitiveness is the only game. . . . .
    Hi Jono,

    If the S2 is $50k, then truly Leica would have lost the plot.

    Look at a guy like Charles G, our mutual friend. He is having a lot of success as a full time pro, works for some big name brands, but he uses standard Nikon dslr's - says he can't afform medium format digital and the Nikon kit is very versatile. Look at us, for that matter. We both sell pictures, we are reasonably successful in our respective professional fields, but the farthest I have got up the digital food chain (Dicomed scan back aside) is a Mamiya ZD. The reason is twofold in all three examples: 35mm digital has become very good indeed (I no longer use the ZD), and the cost of digital medium format is prohibitive.

    On the other hand, I do have a (used) drum scanner and an 8x10 camera. You could buy both today for the same price as a high end 35mm dslr body.

    The big picture is bleak for MF digital outside a small niche.

    Quentin
    Quentin Bargate
    Director of Bargate Murray, Law Firm of the Year 2012 - 2017, ”leading individual”, Chambers HNW guide, 2017, Photographer

  31. #81
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    OT...

    Quote Originally Posted by woodyspedden View Post
    Hey Shelby

    Hope you guys are all doing well after the violent weather.

    Woody
    Fine here... thanks for asking.

    Less than a mile away? Not so good. Looks like a bomb was dropped in the middle of out town. Sad stuff.

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    Re: More Price Wars?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    ...A CFV sensor needs to be square..... If one of the sensor makers comes up with a 48X48 or larger sensor, then maybe ... but I double doubt that'll happen either.
    I agree...any future CFV (if there is one) has got to be a square sensor if they wanted to target the market of existing users (and surely there are alot of them).

    Re the ideal square sensor size.....would the "full frame" equivalent of the 6x6cm film size be something like 58x58mm? I think 48x48 would still result in a focal length crop factor....less than the current CFV, but I'm not sure by how much.

    A "full frame" square sensor with 30+ megapixels of resolution....I'll bet there are a more than a few V-series owners who would pony up the $$$ once the economy is back on it's feet.

    I know....not likely.

    Gary
    Alaska

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    Re: More Price Wars?

    I believe that reviewers have held that the IQ of T* lenses are inadequate to render the MTF quality that is achievable with current technology sensors. If that is the case, would there be economic value to produce a sensor say half again as large as those currently available, with the likely rejection rate associated with ever larger chips, without the resultant image quality that the purchaser might reasonably expect for their money?

    I say this as a owner of a Hy6 which is ready for a square sensor, but puzzled about the adequacy of even Schneider lenses (non-digitar).

    Jerry

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    Re: More Price Wars?

    Quote Originally Posted by jerryreed View Post
    I believe that reviewers have held that the IQ of T* lenses are inadequate to render the MTF quality that is achievable with current technology sensors. If that is the case, would there be economic value to produce a sensor say half again as large as those currently available, with the likely rejection rate associated with ever larger chips, without the resultant image quality that the purchaser might reasonably expect for their money?

    I say this as a owner of a Hy6 which is ready for a square sensor, but puzzled about the adequacy of even Schneider lenses (non-digitar).

    Jerry
    I'm not sure about that. I've used Zeiss T* lenses with a 33 meg Leaf Aptus 75s and the image IQ was pretty spectacular for most applications. The 40IF, 65/3.5, 100/3.5, and 180/4 in the CF/CFE line-up seemed to keep pace with that particular Dalsa sensor. Surpassed only by my view camera and digitar lenses, but I really had to pixel peep to see any real life difference.

    IMO, a 48X48 sensor that maintains the 10 micron pixels would be a real gain when working with these 6X6 sytems ... providing about 22 meg and increasing the wide angle ability enough ... at least for me. I think the crop factor would drop from 1.5X to 1.16X ... so a 40mm would be around a 47mm field-of-view.

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    Re: More Price Wars?

    I am not in disagreement with you. I have seen that that T* lenses create great images with the current digital backs. What I am saying is that there is a level achievable of IQ higher than currently being created with the SAME back were better lenses to be used. Stated slightly differently, the lenses are not creating the level of IQ that the backs are capable of recording. I hope that you can agree with my re-stated position, which is not intended to to disparage the T* lenses.

    Jerry

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    Re: More Price Wars?

    Quote Originally Posted by jerryreed View Post
    I am not in disagreement with you. I have seen that that T* lenses create great images with the current digital backs. What I am saying is that there is a level achievable of IQ higher than currently being created with the SAME back were better lenses to be used. Stated slightly differently, the lenses are not creating the level of IQ that the backs are capable of recording. I hope that you can agree with my re-stated position, which is not intended to to disparage the T* lenses.

    Jerry
    Yep.I agree with that since I can see it somewhat when using digital view lenses with the same digital back.

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    Re: More Price Wars?

    looking at it this way Hassy could open up a whole new market for the V series by introducing a line of V glass newly optimized for digital. with different focal lengths perhaps to match the square format, whatever it ends up being, 55x55, 48x48, 50x50.

    I really don't understand why they have abandoned the square, especially after being such a staunch defender of the format. Whole careers have been built on the square.

    And looking at the new economic environment, introducing a new cf-v back that would be near full frame, and announcing a new line of V series digital glass, you leverage the existing base of V users, who can start to buy in piecemeal, less investment, using their existing glass and accessories but upgrading as time goes on. Eventually you swap out your body for a digital body with electronic lens contacts and get the benefit of digital lens corrections.

    I know the way of the past has been to get users to push all of their "old" crap across the table in trade for the "newest" best entire system. this was how it was done, at substantial (financed) investment. Seems to me now there is a good case to be made for smaller investments building towards a complete system.

    please hassy-just for me

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    Re: More Price Wars?

    Quote Originally Posted by robertwright View Post
    looking at it this way Hassy could open up a whole new market for the V series by introducing a line of V glass newly optimized for digital. with different focal lengths perhaps to match the square format, whatever it ends up being, 55x55, 48x48, 50x50.

    I really don't understand why they have abandoned the square, especially after being such a staunch defender of the format. Whole careers have been built on the square.

    And looking at the new economic environment, introducing a new cf-v back that would be near full frame, and announcing a new line of V series digital glass, you leverage the existing base of V users, who can start to buy in piecemeal, less investment, using their existing glass and accessories but upgrading as time goes on. Eventually you swap out your body for a digital body with electronic lens contacts and get the benefit of digital lens corrections.

    I know the way of the past has been to get users to push all of their "old" crap across the table in trade for the "newest" best entire system. this was how it was done, at substantial (financed) investment. Seems to me now there is a good case to be made for smaller investments building towards a complete system.

    please hassy-just for me
    And for me too!

    Gary
    Alaska

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    Re: More Price Wars?

    Does anyone know what the resolution capabilities are of the current Zeiss V lenses? Are current MF Digital backs really more capable than the V lenses ability to resolve detail?

    I suppose I could test this theory myself with my 39 meg back ... since I can mount 500 series Zeiss V lenses on the H3D-II/39 ... which I do use but have never done a full test of the lens range against the HC lens line up. The one "bench test" I did do was the older 40CFE against the HC/35 and the HC was a bit sharper in the corners ... but I didn't test for resolution (not that I would even know how to). I now have the Zeiss 40IF and I think the results may be significantly different.

    BTW, DAC software lens corrections should be possible even with 500 series V lenses since the H3 and H2F camera knows what lens is on the camera. The CF Lens Adapter makes that possible ... any CFE lens and E type extenders are automatically recognized, and you can manually program in any other focal length. I doubt that development would ever happen ... but in theory it could be done.

    That is another strength of the V system lenses. They can be used on 500 series cameras and any H camera.

    When I use the 645 H2F Camera with film, I still prefer using the V lenses for the character we all know and love. I can take a 503CW and the H2F (or H1/H2) and use the same lenses on both. The H2F is actually faster and easier to use since in-viewfinder focus confirmation and metering works with the V lenses. I highly recommend this combo to V camera users. BTW, if you put a CF digital back on the H2F you get DAC corrections with HC lenses, and you could use the same digital back on your 500 V camera using a V mount iAdapter. With all the cross compatibility, the V/H systems are all very versatile.

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    Re: More Price Wars?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    That is another strength of the V system lenses. They can be used on 500 series cameras and any H camera.

    When I use the 645 H2F Camera with film, I still prefer using the V lenses for the character we all know and love. I can take a 503CW and the H2F (or H1/H2) and use the same lenses on both. The H2F is actually faster and easier to use since in-viewfinder focus confirmation and metering works with the V lenses. I highly recommend this combo to V camera users. BTW, if you put a CF digital back on the H2F you get DAC corrections with HC lenses, and you could use the same digital back on your 500 V camera using a V mount iAdapter. With all the cross compatibility, the V/H systems are all very versatile.
    Great info Marc. I think you've commented on this before, but after a quick search I couldn't find the post....would everything you've said above about the H2F apply also to the H2? Basically, what are the differences between these two cameras? I see there is a H2, 80mm HC lens, 90x finder and film back available in the For Sale section for $2,500.

    Gary
    Alaska

  41. #91
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    Re: More Price Wars?

    Quote Originally Posted by bensonga View Post
    Great info Marc. I think you've commented on this before, but after a quick search I couldn't find the post....would everything you've said above about the H2F apply also to the H2? Basically, what are the differences between these two cameras? I see there is a H2, 80mm HC lens, 90x finder and film back available in the For Sale section for $2,500.

    Gary
    Alaska
    Gary, both can use leaf shutter V lenses with the CF lens adapter. Both cameras can be used with film or digital.

    The basic difference is that the H2F is currently only CF/CFH digital back compatible ... WITH the DAC corrections in Phocus available when using H/C lenses ... the H2 can also accept the CF/CFH backs but cannot take advantage of DAC corrections.

    On the other hand, the H2 can also use Phase One H mount backs where currently the H2F cannot.

    If the plan is to use the Zeiss lenses then the H2 is probably more economical.

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