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Thread: More Price Wars?

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    More Price Wars?

    Hasselblad just introduced their Spring Promo with the H3D-II/31 kit at $14,995. (response to Mamiya/Leaf?) ... and the 31 kit sans the 80mm lens for $12,995. (second camera targeted at owners of 39 or 50 meg users?).

    This should drive the price for nice used H3D-II/31 kits to $8 or 9K. which is in Canon and Nikon high meg pricing territory.

    It will be interesting to see what the impact will be going into Summer.

    Your thoughts?

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    Re: More Price Wars?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post

    Your thoughts?
    Considering the pricing a few months ago, either they were making huge profits then, or I would think that they're playing survival brinkmanship.

    I hope they're all strong enough to weather this storm.

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: More Price Wars?

    Hasselblad apparently is doing really well. I suppose they are still worried about competition or they wouldn't bother doing all this. My guess is that they did this to catch Phase One in a tight spot, i.e. without a truly competitive camera/lens lineup. Now is the time to strike against Phase, before all their plans hatch. I doubt any of this is aimed at Leica, although it also works there, of course. Now if only Hasselblad would paint their camera black, they would have the world in the palm of their hands
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: More Price Wars?

    Carsten have to disagree this is squarely in Leica's face and the S2. They want people to get into the system any way they can. Than they have to buy Hassy glass. It's called a lose leader in grocery stores and this in my mind is squarely in Leica's face and want folks to get on board before Leica releases. Now there also jumping in at Phase no doubt as well, as they may announce something as well. Plus taking advantage of the Hy6 issue and leaf announcing with Mamiya some products. Hassy wants people in there door step.

    I actually heard a story and ah screw it will tell it. Hassy overheard leica's S2 announcement back at photokinia and immediately dropped there prices. Frankly Hassy is pretty savy and i actually like there thinking on this stuff. No offense intended but sucker them in and they can't get out. That is good marketing and frankly Leica needs to start thinking on the same level NOW
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    Re: More Price Wars?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Carsten have to disagree this is squarely in Leica's face and the S2. They want people to get into the system any way they can. Than they have to buy Hassy glass. It's called a lose leader in grocery stores and this in my mind is squarely in Leica's face and want folks to get on board before Leica releases. Now there also jumping in at Phase no doubt as well, as they may announce something as well. Plus taking advantage of the Hy6 issue and leaf announcing with Mamiya some products. Hassy wants people in there door step.

    I actually heard a story and ah screw it will tell it. Hassy overheard leica's S2 announcement back at photokinia and immediately dropped there prices. Frankly Hassy is pretty savy and i actually like there thinking on this stuff. No offense intended but sucker them in and they can't get out. That is good marketing and frankly Leica needs to start thinking on the same level NOW
    Hi Guy
    I'm sure that it's pointing in both directions.
    Still, I think that from the inside of MF looking out (like you), you get a different impression than from the outside looking (like me).

    I think that Leica's marketplace (if it has one) is for people who have not embarked on MF yet, but would like to. From my point of view looking at Hassleblad (and even more so at Phase) is a complex and confusing world, plummeting prices might be tempting on one hand, but they're also frightening in that they imply your investment is going to evaporate. Added to which the cost of buying in to the system seems like the thin end of a very fat wedge.

    The S2 looks entirely comprehensible - no more complex than swapping from one DSLR to another. Added to that Leica prices have generally held up pretty well.

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: More Price Wars?

    That maybe true but if there is a 5k difference than folks will scratch there heads if the Leica is so much more and hassy and others although complicated. The system is much bigger and they actually may save money and right now saving money is king. The Pro market is DEAD right now. Please trust me on this one. I actually have to call my phone to see if it is working. I can't begin to tell you how much revenue has just evaporated in the last 4 months. And that song is ringing load and clear with everyone i talk too in every type of business except collection agencies. Folks we are in the dumpster and getting out will certainly be tough and there will be many business that will NOT survive this downturn. Selling high end gear is going to be tough and leica's name will not mean much when there is no money.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: More Price Wars?

    I see this as a positive move by Hassy.
    I also have no problem believing that the H3D2-31 kit is going to be selling for $9,999.00 by August/ September.
    I know this sounds controversial and I don't mean to offend anyone, but MF DB worlds main competitor is not other MF makers anymore; but the 5D2, I know one can argue Depth of field, look, 16 bit.... but at the end of the day if you shoot for Commerce there is a heck of a lot you can shoot with a tool like the 5D2.
    One thing this recession has done is to a good extend kill print... Since start of this year, almost every one of my regular clients has done a "web" only campaign. I've gone from delivering ~100Mb files to 20Mb files.... There is a $30k - $100K savings right there, and I can't ever see these clients going back to print at the previous capacity.
    So I think people at Hassy have a good grasp on the situation.
    This pricing is also going to make guys like me who are heavy renters of MFDB but not owners to finally snap and get it in-house.
    Of course just my humble opinion
    am

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    Re: More Price Wars?

    And you are there goal to get guys like you in there house. Once your in you buy there system parts and that is what they are after and many folks looking at D3X, Sony A900 and 1dsMKIII to look at the entry price as competitive and get folks to jump up.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: More Price Wars?

    Doubt seriously that Hasselblad is in "survival mode" since they had a banner year in 2008. The tanking economy has opened up new opportunities to snatch more of the shrinking market for savvy marketers ... which is a sound strategy in down times ... build your slice of the pie even though the pie is getting smaller. Then when things rebound, the pie gets bigger along with your slice. Classic marketing 101.

    This technology has been around awhile, and development costs probably have been recouped to a good degree ... just keep tweaking it with improved firmware/software ... which is exactly what Hasselblad has been doing.

    We all should note that there isn't any promo on the 50 meg camera except the "move up guarantee" when the 60 launches.

    I think this 31 promo is squarely aimed at beleaguered Pros in need of high meg abilities, but facing shrinking revenue ... and those considering a Canon 1DsMKII or D3X primarily for IQ only ... which is what their marketing communications seems to be implying.

    If I didn't already have this camera, I'd be all over it in a NY heartbeat.

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    Re: More Price Wars?

    Well, I do understand everyone's points, and what do I know?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    If I didn't already have this camera, I'd be all over it in a NY heartbeat.
    But wouldn't you be thinking . . . If I wait another 3 months until the Leica actually does appear then it's likely to be even cheaper (maybe the $9000 am suggests).

    The trouble with big discounts in tough times is that everyone thinks the next discount will be even bigger!

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: More Price Wars?

    You know it's funny
    My number one attraction to MFDB is rarely mentioned here;
    "Stable Tethered Shooting", 90% of what I shoot is tethered.
    THe current Mac OSX usb tethering situation is absolutely cr*p...
    am

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    Re: More Price Wars?

    Jono and all
    The $10K mark mentioned by me is just my guess... I have no insight, so PLEASE don't bank on it.
    I was very excited about the S2, but honestly I've lost interest, there is no point in building up excitement and then not releasing product or prices. This I think is just about the worst marketing concept.
    Announce it, get people wet and excited and then "stack it high and watch it fly".
    I'm not going to hold out for a year for a purchase, or to find out that it's just too expensive with lenses to come next year.
    Also the more I think about it, the more I think that Leica's idea of "economical or aggressive" is probably not in line with mine
    I would love to be proven wrong on this one.
    so back to hassy and phase it is.
    am

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    Re: More Price Wars?

    There has never been a better time to buy MFD. There are plenty of barely used bargains to be had, often from official distributors.

    I've recently bought an H3D11-22, essentially new (49 clicks!), direct from Hasselblad, with warranty and complete with all bits, and all for about the price of a D3x. I went for the 22 rather than the 31 to take full advantage of the 28mm lens and those wonderful 'fat' pixels. I seriously considered the D3x but just couldn't get past the p1ss poor viewfinder, the 3:2 format or the dreaded AA filter.

    Couldn't be happier, feel like a pig in sh1t!

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    Re: More Price Wars?

    As one of those guys that has been holding to the sidelines a bit longer, I have to say that this latest splash by Hassy does catch even more of my attention. I am at that point of replacing DSLR gear and have been churning that entire mess also. Have not seen anything new from Canon on their 1-series, which has been my bread and butter gear for some years. The Nikon stuff looks good, but switching will be rather costly. The Sony A900 has held my attention from its release, and find it more attractive as more folks shake it down (thanks, Marc and others for making all of this harder).

    So, while the market for the images I (we) produce has changed dramatically, I am not convinced it will stay that way as things bottom out and start to recover. There may be a lot fewer slick mags and stuff in this new "austerity economy", but there will be more billboards and other "local" uses of images to promote things....think about more locally developed and distributed (small run) brochures and stuff. Starting to see that already, and folks that walk away from a seller with a nice piece of material in hand usually go back to them when ready to buy. Good images will be used, and although Internet marketing is very strong (read that as less demanding on image requirements for the most part), it still is not the only vehicle to reach the buyer. Can most things be shot with a DSLR? Sure, but not everything will look nearly as good. At least that is how I am seeing some of this coming through the smoke of this economic conflagration.

    With that in mind, this latest shot by Hassy has moved me more toward that buying choice. I still love the S2 concept and what it promises, but I fear Leica still not getting it with respect to cost, and also taking them a lot longer to fill out their line-up of lenses and stuff that one may want to use. This is where Hassy is really starting to show its edge. That HTS device, though very pricey, suddenly looks more viable as one moves up, as does the rest of the lens line-up, which is quite complete, especially if they can get you in the door with a strong entry camera like the H3DII-31. This is already at the price point some of us are hoping Leica may hit with the S2, and this gets you into a complete system line that is ready to go, not promised several years out. Lots of glass in the secondary market already also. Hassy stuff works.....works well....and is a very complete system today. Anybody buying into it now would not be waiting for needed pieces or lenses. They would be able to get things fixed or rented out much more easily if needed. They are not dropping a new body or something into the market every couple of months, like Phase/Mamiya (at least not yet), nor are they keeping folks wondering if they will even be around, like the Hy-6.

    So, long worded way of agreeing with some folks that this is a both a great temptation and a great entry point for some DSLR folks that have been waiting for the point to jump into MF. Personally, I may hold just a bit longer, but this looks to be a pretty decent siren to pull folks in.

    LJ

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    Re: More Price Wars?

    Welcome to the club Keith - you finally cracked! LOL happy shooting!

    Prices are coming down in every area of consumer discretionary expenditure - thats what deflation is all about...prices are coming down because demand has fallen into a big black hole....

    this is going to be one wild ride for the next 12-18 months guys....

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    Re: More Price Wars?

    "The trouble with big discounts in tough times is that everyone thinks the next discount will be even bigger!"

    This a description of the impact of price deflation on purchasing. People wait to buy, believing that the current price is just another step in a downward spiral. Why buy anything you don't need right away when it will be vailaible for less next month?

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    Re: More Price Wars?

    I was hoping that the the Hassy 39 would come down in price as well.

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    Re: More Price Wars?

    Interesting that only the cheaper cameras are dropping in price. I wonder if Hasselblad is trying to move the entire range upscale in preparation for a battle with DSLRs and the Leica, i.e. drop the lowest models and move prices down everywhere? Dropping prices is one way of getting rid of stock.
    Carsten - Website

  19. #19
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    Re: More Price Wars?

    This pricing instability is killing me as I'm on the verge of pulling the trigger with MF digital... Guy, we need to talk, lol.

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    Re: More Price Wars?

    LOL

    Different system
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  21. #21
    Shelby Lewis
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    Re: More Price Wars?

    yeah... just pullin' your chain

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    Re: More Price Wars?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Welcome to the club Keith - you finally cracked! LOL happy shooting!
    Thanks Pete, much appreciated.

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    Re: More Price Wars?

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    "The trouble with big discounts in tough times is that everyone thinks the next discount will be even bigger!"

    This a description of the impact of price deflation on purchasing. People wait to buy, believing that the current price is just another step in a downward spiral. Why buy anything you don't need right away when it will be vailaible for less next month?
    Stephen,
    Jono's quote is applicable if folks are buying on price only. In this particular case of Hassy v. Leica S2, there are other components to consider also. The S2 has not been priced yet, nor is it a completed system, while the H3DII-31 is a serious entry point system that may now be priced near its probable base, unless, as some have suggested, Hassy is looking to clear stocks to create a new playing field for the higher end stuff. (I really do not see that part, as I think it critical to have an entry point MF, and the H3DII-31 is Hassy's highest ISO performer to date, plus still above the DSLR top end.)

    Whether it will be available for less in a few months remains to be seen. Personally, I am waiting not so much for prices to drop, though that is a great thing to see, but more to see just where the S2 is going to come out onto the market. If Leica blows it and prices it too high, as they tend to do with most of their stuff, there will be even more folks NOT buying it when they can get into a proven and complete system at this price point. Hassy has made yet another bold and preemptive move here. If I had just bought a new one a few months ago, I may be a bit unhappy, as happened when they first started this price war. However, at this point, I think things may be nearer their bottoms on prices, and one could take advantage and use great gear for all those months while waiting for something else to come to market. It really does depend on how one looks at things, I guess....wait and do not use, therefore missing opportunities, or buy and start to use, thus maybe creating enough opportunity to pay for the differences that may come around. (This is with respect to pros that use this stuff for making money. Folks just wanting to get into MF might keep watching and hoping for more price drops, as there are fewer lost opportunities that may matter.)

    Just more thinking on this.

    LJ

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    Re: More Price Wars?

    Quote Originally Posted by LJL View Post
    Stephen,
    Jono's quote is applicable if folks are buying on price only.
    Oh, I think it's applicable on anything in a falling market. If the kit you really want cost $20,000 6 months ago, and now it costs $14,000 it's only human nature to think that it might be $12,000 in another few months. As Guy says, business is difficult, and the idea that you can put off that decision profitably will encourage a lot of people to put it off.

    I think that only the people who really need an MF kit NOW are going to jump at these prices (and they probably would have bought at the old prices too).

    Added to which, it DOES piss off existing users if the thing they borrowed lots of money to buy just a few short months ago is suddenly up for sale for a lot less money. It leaves a bad feeling.

    I can see that the S2 is going to be priced too high for most working pros (I certainly get the vibe around here) - I'd guess that Leica are reckoning they can sell quite a few kits at a high margin to collectors and the rich enthusiasts in the first instance.

    Remember, if it costs $10,000 to make and you sell it for $10,500 you have to sell 20 times as many as if you sell it for $20,000 - more than that really as you have all the extra distribution and support costs.

    I'm not suggesting that this is good, or that it means that the S2 will be a success, but I'm doubting whether they're seeing the current MF users as their main marketplace. Added to which I'm not sure that continually dropping prices on an expensive product is likely to have a huge positive effect on profits in a deflating market.

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    Re: More Price Wars?

    A price drop from $20,000 to $14,000 is meaningful, but another "possible" drop from $14,000 to $12,000 in three months should be of only marginal interest IF one is buying for business. First, there's a bit of a ramping-up spell with any new system, even if it's one you've used before. But more importantly, if one can't see the $700 per month in price drop coming back, then one may want to reevaluate the purchase in the first place. That's only $175 per week in price drop which would need to be recovered, and that doesn't factor in new business opportunities and positioning due to the new kit.

    My point is simply that in all things digital, waiting for a price drop has serious side effects which may dilute one's savings. This we all understand. In times like these, it can be difficult to find the line, pull the trigger and then make it pay off.

    Looking forward to the exit from this dumper of an economy.

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    Re: More Price Wars?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Allyn View Post

    Looking forward to the exit from this dumper of an economy.
    Well, at least we can all agree about that!

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    Re: More Price Wars?

    Now if Hasselblad would just drop the CFV-II back into the $5k range, I bet they could convince many legacy V-series owners to take the plunge to MF digital.

    Gary
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    Re: More Price Wars?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Well, I do understand everyone's points, and what do I know?



    But wouldn't you be thinking . . . If I wait another 3 months until the Leica actually does appear then it's likely to be even cheaper (maybe the $9000 am suggests).

    The trouble with big discounts in tough times is that everyone thinks the next discount will be even bigger!
    9K would be nice. Even nicer if someone gave me one. IMO, neither is likely But, hey, you never know.

    In fact, I could wait for a better deal ... forever. There's a real cost savings ... just shop and buy nothing ... which is my favorite sport right now ...

    The S2 cost will most likely be in the lenses anyway ... and that has never once in all of Leica's history been "inexpensive" (i.e., 6K for a manual focus 21/24/1.4 and 10K for a Noctilux ) But we've been over this a lot already. The S2 will remain a window shopping item in this studio until business improves a whole lot, and stays that way for awhile ... that is, if the thing even makes it to market.

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    Re: More Price Wars?

    Another smart move by Hassy. Narrow the gap between upper-end DSLRs and the MFDB gateway drug, get'm in the door and then move them up the stack. It also makes life tough for F&H and makes nervous F&H users (or those thinking of F&H) think longer and harder about switching. Stirs the market up between themselves and Phamiya.

    It also forces the S2 team to eventually move their entry price to even more unappetizing levels (to Leica) - or (more likely) open up such gap between the S2 and other offerings (assuming Phamiya counters the Hassy offers) that it makes the S2 an untenable business decision and more of a premium-priced boutique item for Leicaphiles wanting to shoot MF.

    Leica's problem re: S2 pricing are two fold:

    1. They publicly linked the S2 (price) to the Hassy 31 - and likely didn't think of "what if Hassy..." at the time. Not a deal-killer, but embarrassing if they have to back-pedal.
    2. They'll be shipping start-up level volumes (high fully loaded cost/unit) of a product that was developed with last years material cost/parts supply contracts and forecasted margins at (if they stay the course) what are now DRASTICALLY lower prices. Not a fun place to be.

    A DSLResque pricing and depreciation curve has finally come to the MFDB market - which is probably fitting as the cameras become more and more DSLR-like in their integration.

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    Re: More Price Wars?

    Why the assumption that the S2 is tied to the H3DII-31 kit for price? Actually, it falls somewhere between the -31 and -39 backs from Hassy. It has a smaller sensor with projected higher ISO capabilities more like the -31, yet it sports 37+MP, which is closer to the -39. So, in some respects, it still is in between, but fixed body/finder. It also is sporting both FP and LS features, which we see only glimmers of from F&H and Phamiya. So, it still is a bit different animal that looks and may work more like a DSLR.

    At this point, I do agree that the folks at Leica are having heartburn and sleepless nights over this sort of aggressive move by Hassy. The best they can hope for at this point it to splash broadly with a killer low price for a limited time to also get folks in the door and on their way. Not sure even that sort of strategy will work. The more folks that get any other MF kit before the S2 comes out, the harder it will be for Leica to make inroads, even if the camera is flawless from the start (not a lot of folks holding breath on that one, I do not think).

    LJ

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    Re: More Price Wars?

    My bad, IIRC you're right, they (Leica) indicated indicated that intro pricing would be roughly comparable to the 39, not the 31.

    The S2 is a different animal to the norm, but the reverse is true as well. Some will love the smaller size and FP and LS glass, etc. etc. Others will prefer an established MF vendor, the virtually assured better pricing, the ability to move up sensor size w/o replacing cameras, etc, etc.

    The FP and LS lens advantage is real - for as long as Hassy doesn't offer a FP body - or Phamiya LS glass. It is also contingent on Leica of course getting the lens portfolio filled out quickly - and a prices that won't cause aneurisms.

  32. #32
    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
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    Re: More Price Wars?

    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    Another smart move by Hassy. Narrow the gap between upper-end DSLRs and the MFDB gateway drug, get'm in the door and then move them up the stack. It also makes life tough for F&H and makes nervous F&H users (or those thinking of F&H) think longer and harder about switching. Stirs the market up between themselves and Phamiya.
    With my biased binoculars on, I see this move by Hasselblad as no big deal. Essentially, they are only making a price adjustment to meet the pricing of their competitors:

    Mamiya/Leaf DL-28: $14,999
    Phase One P31+/Phase One Camera Kit: $16,990 (P31+ for $14,990 can go on any medium format camera)
    Hasselblad H3DII-31 Kit: $14,995

    Also, we have begun the Phase One Plus Refurb Program, where P30+ refurbished units go for $11,990.


    Someone tell me what the big deal is? Or maybe we're not shouting out our pricing loudly enough?


    Steve Hendrix
    Phase One
    Last edited by Steve Hendrix; 10th April 2009 at 13:32.

  33. #33
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    Re: More Price Wars?

    Leica's primary early adopters aren't just anxious enthusiasts, but rental studios. The rental market is huge and perfect for these perilous financial times. Instead of plunking down for a whole system, rent it for a job and bill it to the client. The flexibility of LS/FPS, faster speed, weather-sealing, compact size, and ease of operation make the S2 a perfect match for rental and fashion. I can tell you in my market (Miami), rental is still going strong. Once photographers start to use the system at rental, they will see the advantages and that in turn drives the pro market. This has worked exceptionally well for companies like Profoto.

    My take on all this is that regardless of a "banner year" at Hassy and however good or bad things are at Phase, everyone is hurting now. Canon sales are down 82% from last year, 5dMkII included. I think that the only way these companies are trying to be competitive is to just rehash the same gear and keep lowering the price. We can see how well that has worked out so far for Leaf. And, to agree with Jono, it really leaves a bad taste in customers that bought into these systems 6 months ago, or worse, a year ago.

    As far as I know, Leica is the only company right now that is investing heavily in R&D to develop new cameras (like the S2) and keep on the cutting edge of lens design, while everyone else rides the holding pattern just trying to survive. When the economy turns around Leica will be well positioned as a market leader with truly forward-thinking products. They are also much better diversified, with revenue streams from the M-system, digital compacts, and sport optics. When you are a company that just makes digital backs and people stop buying/upgrading backs, you have nothing else to sell. As the revenue slows, there is nothing left for R&D. Without real R&D progress you fall behind and will eventually lose market share. I just can't see anyone being able to afford to develop a from-the-ground-up camera to compete with the S2, especially in this economic climate. The H system took about 15 million Euro to develop back in 2002 if my memory serves me correctly. How much has really changed from the H1 to H3DII? I don't know the costs involved with developing the Mamiya 645AF back in 1999, but how different is the 645DF from the 645AF, ten years later? Bottom line is that developing an entirely new platform is very pricey. Leica has ponied up approx. 30 million Euro in the last 18 months for R&D. That is a serious investment in the future and I'd guess equal to some MFD player's entire annual revenue.

    I wouldn't underestimate Leica's ability to deliver on the S2. I also won't underestimate Phase and Hassy's will to survive and willingness to do whatever it takes to get through these rocky times.

    Just my 1.5 cents (the effects of price deflation are everywhere! )

    David
    David Farkas
    Leica Store Miami

  34. #34
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    Re: More Price Wars?

    Read my opening post Steve.

    "A response to Mamiya/Leaf?"

    Now you can select a Focal Plane camera or Leaf Shutter camera depending on need ... all at the same, more reasonable price point.

  35. #35
    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
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    Re: More Price Wars?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Read my opening post Steve.

    "A response to Mamiya/Leaf?"

    Now you can select a Focal Plane camera or Leaf Shutter camera depending on need ... all at the same, more reasonable price point.

    Yes, Marc, not pointing any comments at you, just some of the general remarks to follow and actually emphasizing your point.


    Steve Hendrix
    Phase One

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    Re: More Price Wars?

    Good point on the response to Mamiya/Leaf... Had to stop and check some other forums as a reminder of the recent Phase/Mamiya/Leaf combo moves

    I will say that Steve your thoughts on not shouting out your pricing moves enough might have merit. The Hassy announcements seem to stir up more commentary/stick in the frontal lobe more prominently on various forums when they're made. Hassy pushes out such announcements quite broadly via direct email, to Victor subscribers (such as myself), on their home page, etc. In short, they make a move, everyone knows it.
    Last edited by robmac; 10th April 2009 at 15:15.

  37. #37
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    Re: More Price Wars?

    These price drops, by all the MF players, smell like desperation to me. The same desperation that is causing GM to offer $6K rebates and no interest for 60 months. Anything to stave off collapse. Maybe I'm being overly pessimistic, but the MF companies wouldn't be offering these kinds of price discounts if they weren't in dire straights.

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    Re: More Price Wars?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix/Phase One View Post
    With my biased binoculars on, I see this move by Hasselblad as no big deal. Essentially, they are only making a price adjustment to meet the pricing of their competitors:

    Mamiya/Leaf DL-28: $14,999
    Phase One P31+/Phase One Camera Kit: $16,990 (P31+ for $14,990 can go on any medium format camera)
    Hasselblad H3DII-31 Kit: $14,995

    Also, we have begun the Phase One Plus Refurb Program, where P30+ refurbished units go for $11,990.


    Someone tell me what the big deal is? Or maybe we're not shouting out our pricing loudly enough?


    Steve Hendrix
    Phase One
    Steve

    I wonder what you would be saying if you were still "selling" Hasselblad as you were six months ago. Pretty disingenuous if you ask me (although in point of fact no one asked me)

    Woody

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    Re: More Price Wars?

    Quote Originally Posted by woodyspedden View Post
    Steve

    I wonder what you would be saying if you were still "selling" Hasselblad as you were six months ago. Pretty disingenuous if you ask me (although in point of fact no one asked me)

    Woody
    How about he's wearing a different hat and now has a different point of view?

  40. #40
    Shelby Lewis
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    Re: More Price Wars?

    Quote Originally Posted by woodyspedden View Post
    Steve

    I wonder what you would be saying if you were still "selling" Hasselblad as you were six months ago. Pretty disingenuous if you ask me (although in point of fact no one asked me)

    Woody
    You obviously don't know Steve very well? Although not a personal acquaintance of mine, he's always (and I mean always) been incredibly helpful and forthright in all dealings with me (ie three years of my waffling about MF digital).

    He stated nothing but the facts above.... PLUS made it clear who he works for.

    What else do you need from him? (righteous indignation doesn't suite you very well)
    Shelby

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    Re: More Price Wars?

    "If it walks like a duck , look likes a duck and quacks like a duck - it probably is a duck"

    If the only business model the MFD makers have is roll out another megapixel upgrade every 12 months and halve the value fo the previous top end camera every 12 months- good luck and bye bye.

    This simple point has been made over and over again - but then again rocket scientists don't run these companies - a bunch of B grade marketing egos do. Dont worry about the brand name - the rabid clawing for dollars is disgusting. If you want to laugh- try pricing a step up ring from Hasselblad so you can use a Proshade on your lenses - three rings and a proshade for > $1000 Aussie + Taxes!! I mean what a BIG FAT JOKE

    these companies are digging their own graves...

    Sinar artec @ Aussie $20K body and one lens? - yeah sure ..you got My dollars - NOT.

    Seriosuly FUNNY know reading that Phase One is LEADING the discount WAR ( the new high ground??) - and therfore ? umm therrefore what? exactly?

    How about trying to buy a lens shade for a Rollie lens - MAN THAT is HILARIOUS close to a 700 bucks Aussie for a 180 lens shade? How about this? $700 for a freakin release cable for Hy6????


    This is very very very sad and kinda darkly funny at the same time.

    Or trade in your $100 flatbed you have propping up your old BBQ and you get a $3000 rebate on an X5 scanner - I mean - how about a FAIR price all the time - and NO GOUGING ALL THE TIME!!

    These clowns in all MFD companies are totally clueless and could care less about their users.

  42. #42
    Senior Member yaya's Avatar
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    Re: More Price Wars?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    close to a 700 bucks Aussie for a 180 lens shade? How about this? $700 for a freakin release cable for Hy6????
    324$A and 0$A respectively for the AFi 180mm hood and cable release (converted from GBP so may be a few bucks more/ less).....

  43. #43
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    Re: More Price Wars?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix/Phase One View Post
    Mamiya/Leaf DL-28: $14,999
    Phase One P31+/Phase One Camera Kit: $16,990 (P31+ for $14,990 can go on any medium format camera)
    Hasselblad H3DII-31 Kit: $14,995
    Well, a kit for 15k vs. a back for 15k is not equal pricing. The camera plus 80mm lens is worth 2-3k+. I find Phase's prices high at the moment, given the competition.
    Last edited by carstenw; 10th April 2009 at 16:36.
    Carsten - Website

  44. #44
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    Re: More Price Wars?

    So much heated defense for a camera that doesn't even exist in the marketplace

    Anyone shot a job recently with the S2? Did you have the spread of lenses needed to pull off the job?

    The notion that anyone here knows what may or may not be coming from any of these companies is fanciful. Hasselblad has alway been tight lipped ... so they may, or may not be doing something. Same with Phase or Leaf.

    I REALLY do not care if they all drop prices since it's a paper loss until you sell your current gear. If you're using it, then it has value, if not then it was a waste of money at any price.

  45. #45
    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
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    Re: More Price Wars?

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Well, a kit for 15k vs. a back for 15k is not equal pricing. The camera plus 80mm lens is worth 2-3k+. I find Phase's prices high at the moment, given the competition.

    The camera plus lens adds $2,000. I respectfully disagree with your high price assessment. Our price is not "high". Our solution is a preferred solution versus the competition for many, regardless of whether we are the price leader or slightly higher in price.


    Steve Hendrix
    Phase One

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    Re: More Price Wars?

    I am looking forward to getting a 39 mp back for around 7 grand in a year or two. I am a full time pro, but I shoot sports, music and news to make a living a back would strickly be for my personal work so a luxury I am looking forward too unlees leica comes out with that full frame rangefinder. Keep going price wars.

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    Re: More Price Wars?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix/Phase One View Post
    The camera plus lens adds $2,000. I respectfully disagree with your high price assessment. Our price is not "high". Our solution is a preferred solution versus the competition for many, regardless of whether we are the price leader or slightly higher in price.


    Steve Hendrix=
    Phase One
    Steve, the P30+ package with the AFDIII and 80mm lens is $20,000 at Calumet. That's $5000 more than the Hassy H3DII-31 plus lens at $15,000. The price of the Phase P30+ strikes me as "high" on a relative basis. Of course, only the suckers probably pay the $20k for the P30+ Phamiya. Anyone who has the smarts to announce here or on LL that they are about to buy the Hassy can probably get the P30+ for the same price as the Hassy. The difference is that Hassy is up front with its pricing. With Phase, you have to play the game.

  48. #48
    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
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    Re: More Price Wars?

    Quote Originally Posted by hcubell View Post
    Steve, the P30+ package with the AFDIII and 80mm lens is $20,000 at Calumet.

    Then Calumet is behind on updating their website. Calumet does not set the official Phase One pricing, Phase One does. And the pricing I posted is current:

    *$14,990 - P30+
    *$16,990 - P30+ Kit with camera/lens

    We can't make a dealer update their website when they should (although I wish we could).


    Steve Hendrix

  49. #49
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    Re: More Price Wars?

    Well not sure about a game but a phone call to a dealer will get you a price. Phase and Hassy are different in the way they sell there gear. Phase is more dealer oriented and Hassy is both dealer and retail oriented. They just work differently. I don't consider one good or bad over the other. Also any price posted is somewhat worthless anyway. You want a real price get a quote in writing from any of them. We have to remember also when you buy a Hassy it has to come with a body , when you buy a Phase it does not so pricing will be different in those terms as well.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: More Price Wars?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shelby Lewis View Post
    You obviously don't know Steve very well? Although not a personal acquaintance of mine, he's always (and I mean always) been incredibly helpful and forthright in all dealings with me (ie three years of my waffling about MF digital).

    He stated nothing but the facts above.... PLUS made it clear who he works for.

    What else do you need from him? (righteous indignation doesn't suite you very well)
    Shelby
    Actually I knew Steve well enough as I bought an H3DII-39 with the 28 and 100 lenses (in addition to the kit 80) from him in June of this year. Needless to say the competition was Phase and he was very pointed in his praise of the Hassy compared to the Phase. Of course this is to be expected as he represented Hassy and not Phase.) And of course he now reps Phase so Hassy is the competition. I would have expected Steve to take the high road and focus his commentaries on Phase positive attributes and not on his (now) analysis of Hassy weaknesses, as he sees them. Having spent over $30K with Steve (and his company PPR of Atlanta) and then watching the price reduction of almost 25% only weeks later without a word from either Steve or PPR I am simply no longer a fan!

    I would never have commented about anything regarding Steve had he not dissed his old firm and by implication let down his former customers. i don't like the tactics and said so. End of story. I won't respond to any more posts as these things start to flame and I don't want to be a part of that.

    I'm sorry if it is perceived that I said what I did about a guy who has many many friends and former customers here and elsewhere. I was part of that group as well.

    Woody

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