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Thread: Which DB has worse color shift - Leaf Credo 40 or Phase One IQ3 50?

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    Which DB has worse color shift - Leaf Credo 40 or Phase One IQ3 50?

    Hi everyone,

    I've been working with a Leaf Credo 40 (44x33mm CCD Sensor) on a Linhof Techno and a SK 5.6/28 XL (a non retrofocus wide angle lens) for the last five years. The uncorrected color shift is severe, but I manage pretty well with LCC shots in C1. With shifts over 15mm, blue skies or green grass will get a bit greyish near the edges, but i can easily fix that with a Linear Gradient Mask and the Advanced Color Editor in C1.

    Do you have experience with the Phase One IQ3 50 (or IQ1 50, or IQ2 50, which presumably use the same first generation Sony non-BSI 44x33mm 50MP sensor) regarding color shift? Is it better or worse than the CCD sensor on the Credo 40?

    thanks for your input,

    geb

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    Re: Which DB has worse color shift - Leaf Credo 40 or Phase One IQ3 50?

    My understanding is that the 50mpx CMOS sensor is worse for colour shift and especially crosstalk, but obviously comes with other advantages like useable live view (something I'd appreciated on my Techno) and better DR.

    I use the same generation sensor in a Credo 60 and have looked hard at side-grading to a CMOS crop chip, but apart from the things mentioned above I'm not sure if there is any advantage to such a swap, only disadvantages for my own way of working and existing lens set. Might be different for you thought if you have a lens set tailored to the smaller chip already.

    Out of interest, are you using the 28mm XL with a helical focusing mount in the Techno? I tried the 35mm XL in a recessed lens board (not the most recessed, but 12mm?) and it was a difficult proposition with standards so close together and the bag bellows compressed.

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    Re: Which DB has worse color shift - Leaf Credo 40 or Phase One IQ3 50?

    The IQ350 can‘t manage the SK28 XL.
    Even with no shift the LCC is Problematik.
    I used a P40+ (Dalsa-CCD) with the SK28XL and was very happy.
    The 50 MP CMOS backs are a huge step up but
    you have to buy the Rodies.
    I now have an IQ 150 with Rodi 23, 32, 55....it’s GREAT!
    But my SK47 T/S is limited.
    Regards,
    Ben

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    Re: Which DB has worse color shift - Leaf Credo 40 or Phase One IQ3 50?

    Quote Originally Posted by tjv View Post
    Out of interest, are you using the 28mm XL with a helical focusing mount in the Techno? I tried the 35mm XL in a recessed lens board (not the most recessed, but 12mm?) and it was a difficult proposition with standards so close together and the bag bellows compressed.
    Thanks tjv! I use the 28 in a recessed lensboard and the wide angle bellow, I have no problems focusing on infinity and shifting 20mm.
    However, I couldn’t use the stitching back, as that would add a couple of mm.

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    Re: Which DB has worse color shift - Leaf Credo 40 or Phase One IQ3 50?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben730 View Post
    The IQ350 can‘t manage the SK28 XL.
    Even with no shift the LCC is Problematik.
    I used a P40+ (Dalsa-CCD) with the SK28XL and was very happy.
    The 50 MP CMOS backs are a huge step up but
    you have to buy the Rodies.
    I now have an IQ 150 with Rodi 23, 32, 55....it’s GREAT!
    But my SK47 T/S is limited.
    Regards,
    Ben
    Thanks Ben! I also had a Dalsa chip back before (Leaf Aptus 75), and I still remember it fondly for having almost no crosstalk with the SKs. The rodies are way too expensive for me, plus they can only shift 10mm AFAIK. I guess I have to wait until the IQ4 150 becomes affordable in a couple of years...

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    Re: Which DB has worse color shift - Leaf Credo 40 or Phase One IQ3 50?

    With the R23 I have 10, If I “draw“new corners up to 15 mm shift up. That’s enough with a 23 mm. The wideangle distortion is also a limit, in my opinion.
    The 32 gives easy 15 mm of shift, the 55 more....
    You are right to wait for better prices... 2 weaks ago, somebody sold an IQ3100 with XF and bluering 80 mm for $15 000 here in Switzerland. Prices are dropping, but it will take several years until the IQ4150 is affordable....and I prefere 33x44 mm sensors.
    Be patient and wait also for used lenses.
    Regards.
    Ben

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    Re: Which DB has worse color shift - Leaf Credo 40 or Phase One IQ3 50?

    Quote Originally Posted by gebseng View Post
    Thanks Ben! I also had a Dalsa chip back before (Leaf Aptus 75), and I still remember it fondly for having almost no crosstalk with the SKs. The rodies are way too expensive for me, plus they can only shift 10mm AFAIK. I guess I have to wait until the IQ4 150 becomes affordable in a couple of years...
    As far as I know is your Credo 40 the same Dalsa CCD sensor as the one in the P40+ and IQ140....
    Regards,
    Ben

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    Re: Which DB has worse color shift - Leaf Credo 40 or Phase One IQ3 50?

    It’s too bad someone hasn’t released a back yet with the 33x44mm 100mp BSI sensor of the GFX100
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    Re: Which DB has worse color shift - Leaf Credo 40 or Phase One IQ3 50?

    Quote Originally Posted by tcdeveau View Post
    It’s too bad someone hasn’t released a back yet with the 33x44mm 100mp BSI sensor of the GFX100
    Exactly. It would be so great if we could use the Fuji GFX100 on a tech camera, if only the sensor wasn't hidden so deep down in the body...
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    Re: Which DB has worse color shift - Leaf Credo 40 or Phase One IQ3 50?

    f you want to use the 28XL you really need to switch to the IQ4 150mp. It’s the only back that will really show off that lens. Extremely low color cast on that sensor even with that lens. It will also make the 28XL effectively wider in angle of view since the sensor is significantly larger than your Credo 40, and even cropped to the same angle of view will still provide twice the resolution.

    All other options higher res than the Credo 40 will be the same (60mp) or worse (50,80,100).
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

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    Re: Which DB has worse color shift - Leaf Credo 40 or Phase One IQ3 50?

    50 MP is by far enough for my clients and me, even with cropping.
    I'm dreaming of a 33 x 44 mm, 50/100 MP BSI back.
    More MP are only filling up HD space and slowing down the workflow.
    I also don't see an advantage in larger sensors.
    That's why I think my IQ150 will be my last Phase One back...
    Regards,
    Ben

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    Re: Which DB has worse color shift - Leaf Credo 40 or Phase One IQ3 50?

    It will be interesting to see if the 60MP chip in the latest Sony AR7 camera carries forward the same features the BSI 150MP chip has in the IQ4, namely loss of almost all color cast on shifts and remarkably less noise on shifts/light fall off. The Sony should easily fit on the Universalis or Cambo Aptus cameras and work with the tech glass. Or a M line camera.

    The Sensor on the GFX is not mounted very deep in the camera i.e. it's mirrorless thus no mirror box, issue with use on a camera like the Univeralis or Cambo is the grip and fact that the camera has the battery compartment below the camera like with a Canon Pro body, however the Canon body will work on the various view camera bodies, by Arca and maybe on Cambo.

    Paul C

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    Re: Which DB has worse color shift - Leaf Credo 40 or Phase One IQ3 50?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben730 View Post
    50 MP is by far enough for my clients and me, even with cropping.
    I'm dreaming of a 33 x 44 mm, 50/100 MP BSI back.
    More MP are only filling up HD space and slowing down the workflow.
    I also don't see an advantage in larger sensors.
    That's why I think my IQ150 will be my last Phase One back...
    Regards,
    Ben
    Of the dozen or so reasons I might suggest an IQ4 to someone, the number of pixels is probably in the second half of that list.

    In my opinion, focusing on pixel count is a bit outdated. I'd suggest focusing on overall image quality and what (if any) features/functionality/specifications would help you solve problems and focus on the task at hand.

    In the case of the OP, even in the reduced-resolution (37mp) mode the IQ4 150mp would:
    - much better DR
    - much better high ISO
    - much better long exposures
    - better color
    - allow a significantly increased area of the image circle to be used
    - provide hugely better live view
    - provide significantly improved in-camera review of
    - provide frame-averaging for long exposures
    - provide faster tethering without adapters to modern laptops
    - provide faster download to computer (including transfer without bringing a card reader)

    And more to the point of the OP's original question, the IQ4 would essentially eliminate the color cast issue from his workflow. It's likely he would not need to do LCC captures anymore, and if he did he could use a library approach rather than have to capture them in the field, and regardless would see an image in the field much much closer to the final result than with the Credo 40 allowing a cleaner vision with which to fulfill his artist and technical desires.

    If I wasn't trying to wrap up this post in time to watch Sunday football I'm pretty sure there are another half dozen headline reasons the IQ4 would be helpful, that are unrelated to pixel count.

    Regarding your wish... The IQ4 is a 33x44 100mp BSI back... with an extra bit of resolution and sensor size around it. If you really want to, you could crop every image down to the 33x44/100mp equivalent; though I suspect you'd quickly find that a larger sensor is nice for any number of reasons. Moreover, I suspect, if you take a look at your storage that you're spending much less of your total storage on raw files than you think. A single 3-layer 16-bit PSD (assuming compatibility mode) requires the same amount of storage as ~20 raw files of the same resolution. So having the raw files being 30% larger, and cropping, isn't really going to change your net storage needs that much. Re "slowing down the workflow" – browsing/adjusting/focus-checking 150mp raw files is nearly identical in speed to 100mp raw files, since you are working on a proxy of the raw in both cases.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

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    Re: Which DB has worse color shift - Leaf Credo 40 or Phase One IQ3 50?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post
    The Sensor on the GFX is not mounted very deep in the camera i.e. it's mirrorless thus no mirror box, issue with use on a camera like the Univeralis or Cambo is the grip and fact that the camera has the battery compartment below the camera like with a Canon Pro body, however the Canon body will work on the various view camera bodies, by Arca and maybe on Cambo.

    Paul C
    Yes, but AFAIK the only wide angle lens that can be used on a tech camera with the GFX is the 24mm Cambo/Samyang lens, which is not so bad but has lots of curvature, an anathema to using it for architecture.

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    Re: Which DB has worse color shift - Leaf Credo 40 or Phase One IQ3 50?

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    Of the dozen or so reasons I might suggest an IQ4 to someone, the number of pixels is probably in the second half of that list.

    In my opinion, focusing on pixel count is a bit outdated. I'd suggest focusing on overall image quality and what (if any) features/functionality/specifications would help you solve problems and focus on the task at hand.

    In the case of the OP, even in the reduced-resolution (37mp) mode the IQ4 150mp would:
    - much better DR
    - much better high ISO
    - much better long exposures
    - better color
    - allow a significantly increased area of the image circle to be used
    - provide hugely better live view
    - provide significantly improved in-camera review of
    - provide frame-averaging for long exposures
    - provide faster tethering without adapters to modern laptops
    - provide faster download to computer (including transfer without bringing a card reader)

    And more to the point of the OP's original question, the IQ4 would essentially eliminate the color cast issue from his workflow. It's likely he would not need to do LCC captures anymore, and if he did he could use a library approach rather than have to capture them in the field, and regardless would see an image in the field much much closer to the final result than with the Credo 40 allowing a cleaner vision with which to fulfill his artist and technical desires.

    If I wasn't trying to wrap up this post in time to watch Sunday football I'm pretty sure there are another half dozen headline reasons the IQ4 would be helpful, that are unrelated to pixel count.

    Regarding your wish... The IQ4 is a 33x44 100mp BSI back... with an extra bit of resolution and sensor size around it. If you really want to, you could crop every image down to the 33x44/100mp equivalent; though I suspect you'd quickly find that a larger sensor is nice for any number of reasons. Moreover, I suspect, if you take a look at your storage that you're spending much less of your total storage on raw files than you think. A single 3-layer 16-bit PSD (assuming compatibility mode) requires the same amount of storage as ~20 raw files of the same resolution. So having the raw files being 30% larger, and cropping, isn't really going to change your net storage needs that much. Re "slowing down the workflow" – browsing/adjusting/focus-checking 150mp raw files is nearly identical in speed to 100mp raw files, since you are working on a proxy of the raw in both cases.
    I know that the IQ4 150 would solve all our problems. At around € 35.000,- (maybe 30.000,- if I trade in the Credo 40) it's just not affordable for most architectural photographers. Also, my impression when browsing ebay etc. is that older IQ backs have to be sold for ridiculously low prices (e.g. around 5.000,- for an IQ3 50).

    My impression is also that these back are not really more reliable than other cameras. My 5yr old Leaf Credo has something like funghus growing on the sensor side of the protective glass. The dealer says that, unlike older DBs, the protective glass can not be removed for cleaning and P1 has to swap the entire sensor/glass unit. (check this thread for details: https://forum.luminous-landscape.com...topic=132458.0 )

    Since this summer, the Credo 40 also starts to show heavy vertical (sic!) banding in exposures over 15 seconds, let's see how that develops...
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    Re: Which DB has worse color shift - Leaf Credo 40 or Phase One IQ3 50?

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    ..... The IQ4 is a 33x44 100mp BSI back... with an extra bit of resolution and sensor size around it. If you really want to, you could crop every image down to the 33x44/100mp equivalent; though I suspect you'd quickly find that a larger sensor is nice for any number of reasons. Moreover, I suspect, if you take a look at your storage that you're spending much less of your total storage on raw files than you think. A single 3-layer 16-bit PSD (assuming compatibility mode) requires the same amount of storage as ~20 raw files of the same resolution. So having the raw files being 30% larger, and cropping, isn't really going to change your net storage needs that much. Re "slowing down the workflow" – browsing/adjusting/focus-checking 150mp raw files is nearly identical in speed to 100mp raw files, since you are working on a proxy of the raw in both cases.
    ..and a castle is a small studio apartment with a bit of extra space around it???
    The problem is the budget.
    I'm sure a 33 x 44 BSI sensor back would be significantly cheaper than an IQ4150.
    Because neither I nor my clients need the extra space and the extra resolution around, and because my budget is limited,
    I'm hoping for a 33 x 44 mm BSI solution.

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    Re: Which DB has worse color shift - Leaf Credo 40 or Phase One IQ3 50?

    Ordinarily I’d say “wait for the next Hasselblad X back” as that system is looking great for your / our needs, but I’m feeling grumpy after Hasselblad have essentially reduced my 2 5-year-old flextight scanners - which they were still selling new last tear - to paperweights by killing all software support so they can’t be used on OSX 10.15. An emotional statement, but Hasselblad are dead to me and will need to work exceptionally, exceptially hard for me to buy their products again. They could start by incorporating Flextight support in Phocus.

    In short... maybe the next Hasselblad X back will suit you and be priced well? Otherwise, how about a used 60mpx CCD back and crop when needed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben730 View Post
    ..and a castle is a small studio apartment with a bit of extra space around it???
    The problem is the budget.
    I'm sure a 33 x 44 BSI sensor back would be significantly cheaper than an IQ4150.
    Because neither I nor my clients need the extra space and the extra resolution around, and because my budget is limited,
    I'm hoping for a 33 x 44 mm BSI solution.

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    Re: Which DB has worse color shift - Leaf Credo 40 or Phase One IQ3 50?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post
    The Sensor on the GFX is not mounted very deep in the camera i.e. it's mirrorless thus no mirror box, issue with use on a camera like the Univeralis or Cambo is the grip and fact that the camera has the battery compartment below the camera like with a Canon Pro body.

    Paul C
    The G mount flange distance is 27mm. The Cambo Actus GFX seems to get the GFX 100 body quite close. If there was a way to move the sensor/IBIS/glass unit up 25mm or so, that would be a perfect DB for wide angle, and extremely low cost...

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    Re: Which DB has worse color shift - Leaf Credo 40 or Phase One IQ3 50?

    Quote Originally Posted by gebseng View Post
    The G mount flange distance is 27mm. The Cambo Actus GFX seems to get the GFX 100 body quite close. If there was a way to move the sensor/IBIS/glass unit up 25mm or so, that would be a perfect DB for wide angle, and extremely low cost...
    The widest non-retrofocus lens I can use with my GFX 50R as the "back" is 60mm. The 55mm symmetrical lens I tried had strong lens cast with almost any amount of shift. On top of that, even if I'd been willing to deal with the lens cast problem, the rear end of the lens was inside the cavity of the camera. The 26.7mm flange distance of the GFX is not friendly to wides.
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    Re: Which DB has worse color shift - Leaf Credo 40 or Phase One IQ3 50?

    Hopefully Fuji will someday create a shift lens. All of their lenses I have used are very well made and have great optics on the 50S and 100.

    But there is not anything on their long term line up of future lenses.

    I have sent them a few emails asking for a shift lens, and others with a Fuji MF body should also as eventually they might develop one.

    Odds are not an ultra wide however.

    The other lens to consider would be the Nikon 19mm on a fotodiox adapter. You need to fix the aperture in advance on a Nikon body, but it works. I have used it on the 50R.

    Paul C

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    Re: Which DB has worse color shift - Leaf Credo 40 or Phase One IQ3 50?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post
    Hopefully Fuji will someday create a shift lens. All of their lenses I have used are very well made and have great optics on the 50S and 100.

    But there is not anything on their long term line up of future lenses.

    I have sent them a few emails asking for a shift lens, and others with a Fuji MF body should also as eventually they might develop one.

    Odds are not an ultra wide however.

    The other lens to consider would be the Nikon 19mm on a fotodiox adapter. You need to fix the aperture in advance on a Nikon body, but it works. I have used it on the 50R.

    Paul C
    Over at FredMiranda there's a short thread where a poster outlines the ultra-wide options he's tried: https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1624273 He writes, "the Nikon 19mm pc-e is excellent edge to edge but has severe geometric distortion on gfx". Does that match your experience Paul?

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    Re: Which DB has worse color shift - Leaf Credo 40 or Phase One IQ3 50?

    Quote Originally Posted by rdeloe View Post
    The widest non-retrofocus lens I can use with my GFX 50R as the "back" is 60mm. The 55mm symmetrical lens I tried had strong lens cast with almost any amount of shift. On top of that, even if I'd been willing to deal with the lens cast problem, the rear end of the lens was inside the cavity of the camera. The 26.7mm flange distance of the GFX is not friendly to wides.
    The lens cast presumably would be gone with the GFX100 BSI sensor. But the sensor is still too deep inside.

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    Re: Which DB has worse color shift - Leaf Credo 40 or Phase One IQ3 50?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post

    The other lens to consider would be the Nikon 19mm on a fotodiox adapter. You need to fix the aperture in advance on a Nikon body, but it works. I have used it on the 50R.

    Paul C
    Great! Can you shift the whole 12mm without vignetting?

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    Re: Which DB has worse color shift - Leaf Credo 40 or Phase One IQ3 50?

    Quote Originally Posted by gebseng View Post
    The lens cast presumably would be gone with the GFX100 BSI sensor. But the sensor is still too deep inside.
    In my case the numbers didn't quite work out because there's a 5mm spacer on the lens mount. With a GFX 50R I can also use a lens board with no spacer on my setup, in which case the 55mm lens would fit. Unfortunately, that's not an option with the GFX 100 because of that great big grip.

    This is a scenario where the tiny grip on the 50R is a real plus. Hopefully when they update the camera, they won't increase the grip (which seems to be the trend in the industry -- bigger grips with each new model).

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    Re: Which DB has worse color shift - Leaf Credo 40 or Phase One IQ3 50?

    Quote Originally Posted by rdeloe View Post
    In my case the numbers didn't quite work out because there's a 5mm spacer on the lens mount. With a GFX 50R I can also use a lens board with no spacer on my setup, in which case the 55mm lens would fit. Unfortunately, that's not an option with the GFX 100 because of that great big grip.

    This is a scenario where the tiny grip on the 50R is a real plus. Hopefully when they update the camera, they won't increase the grip (which seems to be the trend in the industry -- bigger grips with each new model).
    Yes, please bring on the GFX 100R!

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    Re: Which DB has worse color shift - Leaf Credo 40 or Phase One IQ3 50?

    Quote Originally Posted by gebseng View Post
    Yes, please bring on the GFX 100R!
    Or a Hasselblad CFV III 100mp...that would be ideal for me since I could use my XCD glass and tech cam gear with the same back

    Here's to hoping we see more use of the GFX 100 sensor (Sony's IMX461) in the not-too-distant future. Nothing against the IQ4 150, which I'm sure is fantastic but cost prohibitive for many including myself, I'd just like to see the 33x44mm segment grow more to give cheaper options than the IQ4 150 and more diverse options than the GFX 100.

    I'd also love to see a Hasselblad or Fuji Achromatic since Sony produces a monochrom version of the IMX461 but that's probably a pipe dream
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    Re: Which DB has worse color shift - Leaf Credo 40 or Phase One IQ3 50?

    Quote Originally Posted by tcdeveau View Post
    Or a Hasselblad CFV III 100mp...that would be ideal for me since I could use my XCD glass and tech cam gear with the same back

    Here's to hoping we see more use of the GFX 100 sensor (Sony's IMX461) in the not-too-distant future. Nothing against the IQ4 150, which I'm sure is fantastic but cost prohibitive for many including myself, I'd just like to see the 33x44mm segment grow more to give cheaper options than the IQ4 150 and more diverse options than the GFX 100.

    I'd also love to see a Hasselblad or Fuji Achromatic since Sony produces a monochrom version of the IMX461 but that's probably a pipe dream
    +1

    Every single word in this post I agree with!
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