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[ddk]

Sorry, David, but even to my read, you first posited your thoughts, then you "explained" your views of how business works. When Kumar offered his perspectives, you snapped back with a somewhat didactic response suggesting Kumar's perspectives have little value. That did not feel good, and I was only reading it.

If you read my post you'll see that I only explained why the Cube costs what it does for those who think that AS is simply greedy. This was not a view point nor a discussion about anyone's theoretical business model. His jumbo jet response tells me that he didn't get the point that I raised and that's why I snapped back as you said, his perspective has nothing to with with the content of my post and that's why I called it ignorant.

At this point, I think this lifeless horse has been flogged enough. Until there is some new information that changes the scenery, nobody is "right" or "wrong", but as consumers, we are free to support whomever offers us the deals that we prefer.

LJ

I fully agree with you, one is free to buy what one wishes, there is no right or wrong here.

 

[ddk]

Putting a smiley on after calling someone ignorant doesn't make it okay, IMO.

(Edited) It was a response to what I felt was a wise a$$ and ignorant reply to my post (end of edit), it might not suit your sensibilities but we all have different ways of communicating, sorry if I offended yours.

Anyway, I find it a bit sad that a thread about saving a few bucks is much longer than most technical or photography threads here.

What do you expect Carsten, its a holiday week with most people's kids at home driving parents crazy!:talk028:

 

[FromJapan]

Lots of assumptions here regarding relative pricing of the Cube vs. Multiflex, some unfairly calling AS greedy, others think that Koreans are happier with less profit, etc., etc., but what everyone is ignoring is the difference of the distribution channels. I'll bet you AS ex-factory price is less than what PhotoClam is charging for their product, selling them direct on e-bay. The Cubes $2400 retail price includes, the cost of the item + shipping and import duties to the distributor + distributor markup = new cost + shipping to dealer + dealer markup = MSRP. I bet you that Cube's ex-factory price is in the $800-$900 range and that is more than fair! At this price they probably make around $300 gross per head and how many cubes do you think that they can sell a year? AS is anything but greedy. In reality PotoClamp is the greedy party here selling their product @ $1200 a pop, a good deal would be $600-$700 considering their direct sales policy.

Hey guys,

I'm not offended - here's a smiley!
David may have definitive knowledge of A/S distribution channels, costs, etc.
The following are all his figures. He says the Cube's ex-factory price is $900, and their gross margin is $300. So A/S makes a reasonable return, given that they have invested substantially in engineering the product. So, the distribution channel eats up $2400 - $900 i.e. $1500. Shipping a single Cube, assuming a shipping weight of 1.5kg by Fedex from France to New York is $185. That leaves $1315 for customs, the distributor and the dealer. AFAIK, customs duties in the US are very low, unlike in the EU. But, assuming EU rates at roughly 25% of landed cost, the duty on $1085 is $271, pushing up the distributor's cost to $1356. The distributor and dealer then divvy up the remaining $1044.

If someone could corroborate these figures?

Cheers,
Kumar

PS: PhotoClam isn't charging $1200. I believe their price is $985 plus shipping. And like A/S, they're free to set their prices, whether they're fair or not.

EDIT: And if someone could post the price of the Cube in the EU or even in France itself, where shipping would be much lower, and I believe there would be no customs duties, but of course there's VAT.

In the UK, at RobertWhite, the price is 1455 GBPounds, ~$2153 plus 15% UK sales tax = surprise! $2476, pretty close to B&H's price of $2399.95!

Does anyone know who is A/S' US distributor? I did a google search but found no precise information.

 

[Dale Allyn]

All's fair in discussion exercises I suppose, but lots of assumptions being made here by most of us. My primary business is specifically import/export of products within a narrow field. I deal with shipping by various carriers, duties, customs brokerage costs, bonds, etc. It all adds up. A-S is not receiving $2400 for the cube. Their retailers need to make money (as acknowledged).

I don't think that anyone suggests that labor in the E.U. is cost-comparable to South Korean labor costs. It has also been suggested that the A-S design is not entirely unique to them, but in fact they have cleverly adapted a pre-existing goniometer to be used as a tripod head. I say "kudos" to A-S for doing so.

All that being said, even if Photoclam stopped making the "knock-off" (if that's what it is) Arca-Swiss will still need to consider that any company can also work with goniometer designs to develop a similar but different tripod head. My point is that A-S will need to maneuver by means of design, quality, price, service, loyalty, etc. if they want to remain relevant in what could become the "goniometer-style head sector". Being first doesn't assure one permanent positioning.

And to be clear, I am very much against any form of IP infringement. I'm just not sure at this stage who should be most credited with design rights for these products. I'm not in a position to know with the information which is currently available.

 

[Rethmeier]

O.K guys,
here is my review of the Multiflex from PhotoClam.
I know that I'm stepping on a few toes here,but so be it.

From what I can tell,it operates like it should.
No play and the built quality is excellent.
Extremely well finished.
The waterproof cover is handy as well.
The unit also has a spring loaded large knob,that can be switched around.
How it compares to the Cube,I can't tell as I don't have one.
Best,
Willem.

 

[Rethmeier]

More pics:

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Have to admit it looks nice. Cube owners your take. I'm being political correct not buying either one . Oh wait that maybe political broke and still not buying either one. LOL

 

[Rethmeier]

Jack,you better sell your P25+ first.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Guy and yes I need to sell my P25 plus first before even thinking about this stuff. I am in buying shutdown mode for now. Thank god a couple jobs came in today it was looking very scary and still is.

 

[Rethmeier]

Sorry Guy,I always get you guys mixed up!

 

[Dale Allyn]

Thanks, Willem. I appreciate you posting these photos. I'm not sure how all of this will shake out, but it was kind of you to share your experience with us. I hope you enjoy your head, and will post future observations regarding it as well.

Regards,

Dale

 

[Rethmeier]

No problems Dale!
I'll probably will be banned from this forum and the LL forum as well.
Best,
Willem.

 

[Dale Allyn]

No problems Dale!
I'll probably will be banned from this forum and the LL forum as well.
Best,
Willem.

I doubt it!

 

[Rethmeier]

:thumbup:O.K!

 

[jingq]

how's the stability of it when extending the head all the way like this, with a camera attached?

 

[FromJapan]

Looks good, but as jingq suggested, put your camera with a long lens on it in that position and see how it moves.

Kumar

 

[Rethmeier]

Please guys,
this thing was designed for 10x8 cameras.
I could not find any movement or play.
It's build quality is perfect.
I only have a measly D3x and my longest lens is a ZF100 Makro
Used to have a Hy6/75LV,however sold my MFDB gear.


Best Willem.

 

[Jack]

Willem:

Certainly looks and sounds like it is an excellent alternative. Now we just need to get you near a Cube so you can compare smoothness and overal operations directly.

Thanks for posting this!

 

[jlm]

a few small things:
the cube uses tiny lever-locks for the pans, the clam small knobs
the cube has rubber o-rings on the knobs for added friction/grip, the clam uses knurls
looks like the clam has the one moveable large knob that appears to fit one of the knobs for each tilt axis, but not both.
my cube had clear bubble levels, clam's are green
looks like the clam is using stainless steel screws, i think the cube used steel?
lever-lock on the cube (for the camera), screw clamp on the clam

 

[Dale Allyn]

One problem that I have experienced with the rubber o-rings used on some tripod head knobs is that in cold weather they slip and that can be frustrating and disconcerting vis-a-vis security and precise placement. The o-ring "gripper" and the knob itself contract at different rates in the cold. IMO, this would be an area worthwhile to change.