Site Sponsors
Page 1 of 5 1 2 3 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 50 of 246

Thread: Save $

  1. #1
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    251
    Post Thanks / Like

    Save $

    How to save yourself almost $1400 USD,by purchasing the Multiflex from Photoclam,instead of the overpriced Cube from ArcaSwiss.

    I haven't received it yet from Korea,however I can't see much difference.
    It cost me $1014 USD shipped to my door in Sydney.

    http://www.tripodballhead.com/search...&max-results=8

    I know the snobs will say,it can't be that good,however the Koreans are very well know for their tooling and craftsmanship.

    It should go well with my Induro 313.

  2. #2
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Los Altos, CA
    Posts
    10,486
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1031

    Re: Save $

    while it looks very promising, I would hold off your full enthusiasm until you have it in your hands and can confirm it is 1) smooth and 2) has no slop or play in any of the tilt or pan axes or either rack and pinion mechanism...
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  3. #3
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    251
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Save $

    Jack,
    I'll let you know,when I receive it.
    However I can't compare it with the "real" thing.
    Still,I can't imagine the Arca to be two and a half times better.
    Maybe you can send me yours?LOL
    Best,
    Willem.

  4. #4
    Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    154
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Save $

    You're joking, right?

    Paying 1000$ for a COPY? I wouldn't even pay 10$ for a Rolex-copy, just because the Chinese "are very well know for their tooling and craftsmanship"... Okay, that was a bit unfair, South-Korea is not China, but it's not Switzerland, either... And this company has clearly copied 1:1 just to damage Arca-Swiss. Do we really need more (not so) cheap stuff? When I would work for Arca, I would be outrageous! The company I work for also has trouble with these copies, it lost the Swiss (and German and...) many thousand jobs of high-quality!
    Do you think that you pay 1400$ extra for the name, they invest into their huge marketing-campaigns (and website... ;-) and building up their brand name... No, Arca is not Adidas, it's pure Swiss-quality with employees who work for generations in the precision industry.

    Sorry, I work too hard for my money to spend 1000$ for a copy.

  5. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    2,338
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    52

    Re: Save $

    @ over $1000 if there is any slop or play - unless the basic cad engineering is bad - it may be worth just replacing all screws. Simple test may just be the quality of the anodising of the body. Still I have some sympathy for the comments above re a clear example of flagrant rip-off.

    let us know Willem!

  6. #6
    Senior Member yaya's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    London, UK
    Posts
    1,168
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    38

    Re: Save $

    ...and while you are at it, buy yourself an ALPA knock-off as well....

  7. #7
    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    London/Kiev
    Posts
    1,079
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Save $

    as I wrote in the 'other' forum... "Willem, I hope or your sake that it is good but there are a lot of Asian operators specialising is making goods which look great but are poorly engineered. You can't tell from the photo whether they used the most durable materials, or the tightest tolerances, or the smoothness of any action, etc. Warranties can also be hard or impossible to enforce. As I said I hope you get lucky but there are reasons to avoid these products unless perhaps you have a trusted review of one particular product."

  8. #8
    smei_ch
    Guest

    Re: Save $

    The only thing Swiss is the word in the name and that the owners are from Switzerland. Arca moved to France 10 years ago. It might be time for a name change?

  9. #9
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    251
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Save $

    I will let you guys know about the outcome.
    In the the meanwhile I'm very happy with my 8x Carbon Fibre Induro tripod(Asia)
    that's about half the price compared to the Gitzo and does the same job.
    What's wrong with Korean?
    All the mountain bike frames(high-end) are made in Korea,only they do a better job then the Yanks.

  10. #10
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    251
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Save $

    Some reviews from our" partners in crime"?

    http://www.largeformatphotography.in...ad.php?t=37628

  11. #11
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    251
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Save $

    Yair,
    please have a wake-up call!
    Best,
    Willem.

  12. #12
    Workshop Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Brooklyn
    Posts
    4,043
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1253

    Re: Save $

    speaking as a manufactuturer in the US, and more specifically, a human in NYC, I do not support knock-offs, whether they are books, CK jeans, cosmetics, DVD's or cameras.
    Asian governments seem to not enforce this opinion.
    I would urge forum members to boycott such an egregiouss rip-off on moral principle alone.
    Let the Koreans use their technical skill to develop their own cube-like alternative, but an exact copy is un-ethical and in many cases criminal

  13. #13
    Senior Member Lars's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Sunnyvale, California
    Posts
    1,811
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    19

    Re: Save $

    Still, AS' business strategists have hardly impressed over the last 20 years - it seems that the company is run by its engineering team with little or no business instinct.

    Instead of building on the success of the B1 with more sizes (a smaller head would have been a no-brainer) and extending the dovetail system, they leave that market open to others and come up with the cube which is probably a masterpiece in engineering but priced to just invite competition. Seriously, $2500 for a tripod head??? As pretty and smooth as it may be, anyone buying a Cube has lost touch with reality (sorry Jack).

    I say AS had it coming.
    Monochrome: http://mochro.com

  14. #14
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Lancs, UK
    Posts
    181
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Save $

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    speaking as a manufactuturer in the US, and more specifically, a human in NYC, I do not support knock-offs, whether they are books, CK jeans, cosmetics, DVD's or cameras.

    I would urge forum members to boycott such an egregiouss rip-off on moral principle alone.
    I think that getting a pair of jeans made in a third-world country for $2, sticking a brand-name on them, and selling them kosher for $100 is just as much of a rip-off. High-end hi-fi that costs $10000 and has $500 worth of parts in it.

    I don't mind paying a FAIR amount of profit to hard-working types, or paying a FAIR amount to cover some R&D costs, but any company that expects me to subsidize a guy to stick a pencil up his nose for a couple of years while he comes up with an idea can forget it.

    If the extra quality is worth the extra money, people will pay it. If the same can be achieved for a lot less, they only have themselves to blame.

  15. #15
    Senior Member stephengilbert's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Santa Monica, CA
    Posts
    2,275
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2

    Re: Save $

    Shake,

    If something is patented or copyrighted, the patent or copyright holder has a legal right to protection from infringement. The people who sat around with "pencils up their noses" apparently developed a product whose design has a value (a quite significant value to some). The idea that they charge "too much" is irrelevant. If you support theft of people's ideas, presumably you have no problem with copying photographs taken by others and selling them?

    I think the Cube may be overpriced (at least for me), but that doesn't mean I think it would be okay for me to steal one. For the same reason, I have problems with buying what appear to be rip-offs. Maybe the Clam does not violate Arca Swiss's legal rights, but it sure seems suspicious.

    Steve

  16. #16
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Los Altos, CA
    Posts
    10,486
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1031

    Re: Save $

    Quote Originally Posted by Lars Vinberg View Post
    Instead of building on the success of the B1 with more sizes (a smaller head would have been a no-brainer) and extending the dovetail system, they leave that market open to others and come up with the cube which is probably a masterpiece in engineering but priced to just invite competition. Seriously, $2500 for a tripod head??? As pretty and smooth as it may be, anyone buying a Cube has lost touch with reality (sorry Jack).

    I say AS had it coming.
    No offense taken Lars, but I need to point out I purchased my Cube a few years ago when they first came out and paid $1300 (IIRC) for it at that time; a price I thought was outrageous then, but now makes me look like a genius. My only regret is I did not buy 10 of them

    However, I do not think any company "has it coming" when a design gets blatantly ripped off...
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  17. #17
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Lancs, UK
    Posts
    181
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Save $

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    If you support theft of people's ideas, presumably you have no problem with copying photographs taken by others and selling them?

    Steve
    I agree that an 'exact' copy is pushing the realms of fair play.

    But say someone reproduces a classic photograph as closely as possible, but using their own kit, then tries to sell it.
    As long as it isn't sold as an original, is this so bad?

    Surely it happens all the time, sometimes with an added personal twist, sometimes not?
    Last edited by shakeshuck; 13th April 2009 at 07:01. Reason: wording change

  18. #18
    smei_ch
    Guest

    Re: Save $

    There ist still the question open who was really first in this case.

    https://www.newport.com/store/genpro...ection=Pricing

  19. #19
    Senior Member Lars's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Sunnyvale, California
    Posts
    1,811
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    19

    Re: Save $

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    No offense taken Lars, but I need to point out I purchased my Cube a few years ago when they first came out and paid $1300 (IIRC) for it at that time; a price I thought was outrageous then, but now makes me look like a genius. My only regret is I did not buy 10 of them

    However, I do not think any company "has it coming" when a design gets blatantly ripped off...
    And I was going to say the Cube should be priced in the $1000-1500 range... Jack, my respect for you has been restored.

    My comments re AS management were more general and not specifically re IP protection. Still, protecting your IP is part of the game, and the the higher you price your products the harder you have to work to defend your IP. Overpricing means asking for trouble, AS gets several of their products cloned not just the Cube. More aggressive pricing might have fended off some of the clones by way of pricing instead of legal challenges, and likely created higher product volumes and the economy of scale that follows with that.
    Monochrome: http://mochro.com

  20. #20
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: Save $

    Personally love to have one and used it several times and it is a wonder. I just can't justify the costs at the end of the day. Simple math for me 2400 buys glass instead
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  21. #21
    Senior Member Lars's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Sunnyvale, California
    Posts
    1,811
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    19

    Re: Save $

    Quote Originally Posted by smei_ch View Post
    There ist still the question open who was really first in this case.

    https://www.newport.com/store/genpro...ection=Pricing
    Yeah, this drawing from this page https://www.newport.com/store/genpro...ection=Drawing sure looks like a cube to me... kinda makes you wonder who ripped of who's design:

    Monochrome: http://mochro.com

  22. #22
    ddk
    Guest

    Re: Save $

    This is an amusing thread. I wonder if you people felt the same if the cube was made/copied/modified by RSS, Kirk or any of the other respectable US/European companies knocking off AS designs. You're overreacting about a niche product with a very limited market, sold to those who wouldn't be able to or want to buy the AS Cube in the first place and even if some of them did want to, how much of a dent do you think this Korean product would make to the finances of AS. Yet everyone is happy to buy AS type plates and clamps from the known copy cats in large quantities without thinking about it, where do you think the bigger money money is?

    Willem, I'm very curious about the quality of this product, it could be great if its manufactured right. At that price all you're doing is bypassing AS's distribution channels and retailers and you should be getting a product of equal quality when paying that much for it direct to the manufacturer, I bet you the Cube wouldn't cost any more if you could buy it direct. Please keep us posted.

  23. #23
    Workshop Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Brooklyn
    Posts
    4,043
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1253

    Re: Save $

    i don't think the issue is whether or not you can make a goniometric mount, that has been i the public domain for many decades.
    the issue is whether it is ethical to make an EXACT copy of someone else's product, regardless of relative pricing or relative company management. Let the Koreans make their own version, but a direct copy is bogus. It should be regarded like a copyright; how many of you would want your photos exactly copied and sold?

    In NYC, the fake jeans suppliers get busted by cops with drawn weapons.

  24. #24
    ddk
    Guest

    Re: Save $

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    i don't think the issue is whether or not you can make a goniometric mount, that has been i the public domain for many decades.
    the issue is whether it is ethical to make an EXACT copy of someone else's product, regardless of relative pricing or relative company management. Let the Koreans make their own version, but a direct copy is bogus. It should be regarded like a copyright; how many of you would want your photos exactly copied and sold?

    In NYC, the fake jeans suppliers get busted by cops with drawn weapons.
    Only when they have fake labels!

    In this case since no one actually has any facts and all assumptions are pointless. Who is copying who is unknown and does anyone here knows for a fact that royalties or licensing was or wasn't involved? You don't even know if the two products are same or not.

  25. #25
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    3,623
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Save $

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    i don't think the issue is whether or not you can make a goniometric mount, that has been i the public domain for many decades.
    the issue is whether it is ethical to make an EXACT copy of someone else's product, regardless of relative pricing or relative company management. Let the Koreans make their own version, but a direct copy is bogus. It should be regarded like a copyright; how many of you would want your photos exactly copied and sold?

    In NYC, the fake jeans suppliers get busted by cops with drawn weapons.
    IMO its business and competition. If there is a product which sells good for a good price its just a question of time that a competitor will enter the market.
    As long as the product is not protected by patents I personally wouldnt see a ethical problem to just use as much of the existing knowledge as possible.
    Even if it is patented its just reality that a good product is not enough today, you have to try to constantly improve it and to be ahead 1 step in technology. Specially if you want to charge premium price.
    Otherwise we would all have to drive mercedes cars, wear addidas sports shoes, eat burgers at Mac Donalds (who was first?), use Leica 35mm cameras, etc etc.

    The other question is: how good is the "copy". I would be carefull as well and I dont know if I would like to spend that amount of money for an unknown product. (However I also wouldnt like to spend 2000 $ for a cube)

  26. #26
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    251
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Save $

    I received a PM from Martin Vogt from AS on the LL forum.
    I apologized to him and I have removed my post.
    People on this forum seem to be more understanding.
    And yes,my Rolex is real,I wouldn't by a fake one either.
    I will let you guys know,when I receive the Multiflex in the next couple of days.
    Sorry that I stepped on so many toes!
    Willem.

  27. #27
    ddk
    Guest

    Re: Save $

    Quote Originally Posted by Rethmeier View Post
    I received a PM from Martin Vogt from AS on the LL forum.
    I apologized to him and I have removed my post.
    People on this forum seem to be more understanding.
    And yes,my Rolex is real,I wouldn't by a fake one either.
    I will let you guys know,when I receive the Multiflex in the next couple of days.
    Sorry that I stepped on so many toes!
    Willem.
    I really don't understand why you're apologizing, if there's an issue its between AS and the Korean company, nothing to do with consumers! Buying and reporting on competing products is your right and everyone else's here. If AS has an issue they should take it up with the Korean company and not you, this is very wrong of them to hassle the consumer and if anything, they need to apologize to you!!!!!

    Patents are tricky and must be handled by lawyers and not by us on a bulletin board, AS has to prove that there has been a patent infringement in the first place otherwise they're opening themselves to reverse lawsuits. I have 11 patents myself and am saying this from experience, AS is in the wrong for contacting you!

  28. #28
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    251
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Save $

    Thanks for that David.
    It's good for me to see things from a different stand point.
    I'll let you guys know how the Multiflex performes.
    It should be here later this week.
    Best,
    Willem.

  29. #29
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    2,338
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    52

    Re: Save $

    I think it is great value - sorry others dont share the same opinion - still i coudl care less about other people's 'opines' about 'value'.

  30. #30
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    251
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Save $

    Peter,
    we all know that you have deep pockets and only want the best!
    But hey,I would have bought the real thing too,if money was no object.
    Remember,I did have a Hy6 kit.
    Best,
    Willem.

  31. #31
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Los Altos, CA
    Posts
    10,486
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1031

    Re: Save $

    Willem,

    Now I am peeved at Arca. Like David has said, the fact they attempted to bully you may give you cause for action against them!

    This is an internet community where we share experiences and opinions about gear we've used. You are not promoting anything as a private individual sharing positive thoughts about a product. You might be promoting if you bought 1,000 units of the possible copy and then offered it here commercially at a profit. But even then, that would require Arca to show proof they had a patent on the Cube and proceed legally against you. And last time I checked, A/S didn't even have a website with product information. Moreover, I bought one of their units, I have the original box and all paperwork (of which there wasn't any), and NOWHERE on any of that material is reference to a patent -- doesn't mean there isn't one, but it does leave the question...

    Please feel free to share your experiences, good or bad, with the new head when it arrives, including your experiences with the company sales, service and delivery. I suspect we'd all appreciate detailed photos and feedback after you've had a chance to run it through its paces.



    PS: And Mr. Vogt, if you are reading this tell your company it's time for them to get into the 21st century and get a real website up where you can share product and corporate information properly, so we the consumer know what your side of the story is... And don't get me wrong, I am a satisfied user of your Cube and have recommended it to several people. But I resent the fact you have apparently threatened a private individual for sharing his opinion about an alternate product...
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  32. #32
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: Save $

    This is a AS issue and has nothing to do with a enduser PERIOD. You have the right to buy anything your heart wants that is on the market. I understand copyright infringement and patents very well but this is NOT a end user issue. I do agree with John though and if it is a patent infringement than guns drawn but not at you but at the company making it from AS. Buyers are not responsible for this issue, it very well maybe there decision not to buy a copy and such and that is also there decision no question. But that is different than a company to company patent infringement , we are not responsible for that as a buyer. Nowhere is it said that AS is even filled a patent infringement against these folks. So how are we to know this.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  33. #33
    Senior Member Lars's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Sunnyvale, California
    Posts
    1,811
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    19

    Re: Save $

    This is interesting. Willem, please keep us posted on further developments, and what the product is like.
    Monochrome: http://mochro.com

  34. #34
    Senior Member kdphotography's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Carmel/Tucson
    Posts
    2,355
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Save $

    Rather than try to "hush" Willem up (Arca Swiss obviously saw his thread comments either here or over at LL), I'd rather Arca respond/reply on the threads if they really feel there is an issue that they would like end-users/consumers to be aware of....

    Otherwise, it's a free market, and if the consumer can access it, let the market determine what is the best product for them individually..... It does not sound like any court has issued a stay/TRO type order to stop sales of the clam....

    As a side note, Arca apparently has either horrible customer service or an apparent severe apathy towards consumers. I know Capture Integration made several requests for the Cube (yup---a real one!) and Arca apparently didn't think well enough to provide one to a dealer to sell.....

  35. #35
    Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    154
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Save $

    This head is propably as well manufactured as the Arca, they propably didn't cut costs in material, education, machines or QC and propably it's design similarity is just a coincidence. Propably...

    But is that very likely?

    Without making it a discussion about politics, ethics or Swiss vs. Korean engineering/manufacturing standards these are facts that affect the product and therefore the user.

    I know Swiss and I've seen many of their manufacturing facilities as well as the very similar south-German facilities. I've worked for a company which did both, production in Germany and Korea.
    To make a long story short: entirely different history, philosophy and ecological/social standards - the company used Koreans as cheaper workers to enter the Asian market but of course the German production had to introduce new productions and solve problems...
    Just one example: Swiss/German workers in production are usually educated over many years in certain technical tasks (I'm not talking about engineers) to maintain complex machines and react to problems and discuss them with production/R&D-engineers, in Korea we had to use simpler production lines with more manual work. Don't get me wrong, the Korean engineers I've met were interested and motivated (I've never met the workers) but they were never more than a cheap alternative and "pressure tool" ("see how happy they are with their wages"...) for the management. I don't think Arca would offshore production to Korea (when Multiflex would gain market shares from Arca) but the long-term effects wouldn't be positive.

    "...has nothing to do with a enduser..."

    I'll have to disagree, we're living in a "consumer-world" ruled not by politicians or multinational companies but consumers! We not only buy products, we buy innovation, design, ecological & social standards. What we don't buy (mostly one billion mid-class consumers) isn't produced! We are seduced by a cheap copies? We get more of them!
    This world is already full of cheap crap, stuff we throw away on a daily basis, that are not even worth the low prices we paid. It's enough for me!

  36. #36
    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    London/Kiev
    Posts
    1,079
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Save $

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    This is a AS issue and has nothing to do with a enduser PERIOD. You have the right to buy anything your heart wants that is on the market.
    I think the question is, should anyone be promoting a product which is in breach of IP law, even if you are not breaking the law by buying it? It might be legal but is it ethical? (I don't mean this as an attack on Willem because I doubt he did it intentionally)

  37. #37
    Senior Member Lars's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Sunnyvale, California
    Posts
    1,811
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    19

    Re: Save $

    Quote Originally Posted by foto-z View Post
    I think the question is, should anyone be promoting a product which is in breach of IP law, even if you are not breaking the law by buying it?
    I've seen nothing in this thread that indicates that any intellectual property was illegally copied - there is no law per se against copying an unprotected design. So I disagree, that's not the core issue here but rather what ethical standard we have as consumers and how willing we are to open up our wallets to adhere to that standard.
    Monochrome: http://mochro.com

  38. #38
    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    London/Kiev
    Posts
    1,079
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Save $

    Lars, please note I made no reference to this case - I was referring to the general principle. I'm still waiting to find out if AS holds a patent here.

  39. #39
    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    London/Kiev
    Posts
    1,079
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Save $

    Ok, it seems the Cube is patented in some way. See:
    http://www.precisioncameraworks.com/...ssCubeEngl.pdf

    "The ARCA-SWISS C1 cube with its unique patented design makes possible, a level of hitherto never reached, secure and precise camera positioning through precision workmanship and variety of movements. "

  40. #40
    smei_ch
    Guest

    Re: Save $

    Well, this is a promo text.
    It would be good to know the patent number and where it was issued. So you can find out what is protected and in which part of the world.

    There is still the goniometer patent in the US.
    Last edited by smei_ch; 14th April 2009 at 09:43. Reason: appendix

  41. #41
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: Save $

    Quote Originally Posted by foto-z View Post
    I think the question is, should anyone be promoting a product which is in breach of IP law, even if you are not breaking the law by buying it? It might be legal but is it ethical? (I don't mean this as an attack on Willem because I doubt he did it intentionally)
    I understand what you are saying but the user has no idea what is patent or not too. People promote stuff all the time , you yourself like the Sinar stuff which is fine but we don't ask about your intentions if any. It's what you like and everyone accepts that. Seems kind of along those same lines to me.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  42. #42
    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    London/Kiev
    Posts
    1,079
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Save $

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I understand what you are saying but the user has no idea what is patent or not too.
    True, and that's why I don't blame Willem.

  43. #43
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    251
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Save $

    Wow,
    did I open a can of worms.
    The amount of people at LL that send me PM's including Martin Vogt.
    They all want to know how I like the Multiflex.
    Martin said that of course it won't be as good.
    I'll keep you all posted,when I receive the Multiflex.
    Best,
    Willem.
    N.B Correspondence with the company(Photoclam) was swift and in perfect English.
    I could even pay with PayPal.

  44. #44
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    2,338
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    52

    Re: Save $

    Quote Originally Posted by Rethmeier View Post
    Peter,
    we all know that you have deep pockets and only want the best!
    But hey,I would have bought the real thing too,if money was no object.
    Remember,I did have a Hy6 kit.
    Best,
    Willem.
    Hey Willem - sorry my comment wasn't aimed at you!

    I just think whenever people start saying THIS is too expensive - it is meaningless. Everyone has their own preferences.

    Regarding yoru 'cube' I am interested to hear what you think for sure. I woudl rather pay 50% than 100% for a bit of CAD cutting.

  45. #45
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Los Altos, CA
    Posts
    10,486
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1031

    Re: Save $

    Willem: Please plan on doing a detailed review, with pictures if possible, and you are more than welcome to post it here!
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  46. #46
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Shodoshima, Japan
    Posts
    258
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Save $

    Quote Originally Posted by georgl View Post
    I know Swiss and I've seen many of their manufacturing facilities as well as the very similar south-German facilities. I've worked for a company which did both, production in Germany and Korea.
    To make a long story short: entirely different history, philosophy and ecological/social standards - the company used Koreans as cheaper workers to enter the Asian market but of course the German production had to introduce new productions and solve problems...
    Just one example: Swiss/German workers in production are usually educated over many years in certain technical tasks (I'm not talking about engineers) to maintain complex machines and react to problems and discuss them with production/R&D-engineers, in Korea we had to use simpler production lines with more manual work. Don't get me wrong, the Korean engineers I've met were interested and motivated (I've never met the workers) but they were never more than a cheap alternative and "pressure tool" ("see how happy they are with their wages"...) for the management. I don't think Arca would offshore production to Korea (when Multiflex would gain market shares from Arca) but the long-term effects wouldn't be positive.
    I don't get this. It's okay "ethically" to use Asian workers to reduce costs but it's not "ethical" if those same Asians cut out the expensive Europeans and turn out a cheaper product?

    Reverse engineering isn't a crime. That's how you get third party lenses to work on Canons and Nikons, or Hasselblad V lenses on Mamiya cameras for that matter. The OEM lens protocols are undocumented. So Tamron and Sigma buy a bunch of lenses, figure out how they work with various bodies and put their own lenses on the market. The OEMs can't and don't stop them. They rely on their secrets - and firmware updates - to deliver better performance.

    On a similar note, Cambo and Alpa cameras now have Hy6 mounts, though they compete with Sinar's Artec. So why don't Phase make a back in the Hy6 mount? Not because sinar prevents them. They can simply lock them out with a firmware update.

    The issue of the patent on the Cube isn't so simple. Kerry Thalmann of http://reallybigcameras.com/ carries the PhotoClam ballheads but not the Multiflex, because of a patent dispute. Whether that dispute has been resolved or not is unclear. And A/S has not publicly stated that they have a patent on the Cube, or a worldwide license to use the goniometric patent. If the license is for the US/Europe, they can only prevent it from coming there. Perhaps Multiflex has a license for Asia? Willem, can you ask PhotoClam whether the Multiflex is available in the US, or can be delivered to the US?

    Cheers,
    Kumar
    Last edited by FromJapan; 14th April 2009 at 17:36.

  47. #47
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    251
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Save $

    Kumar,
    I've send them an email with your question.
    Best,
    Willem.

  48. #48
    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    London/Kiev
    Posts
    1,079
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Save $

    Quote Originally Posted by FromJapan View Post
    I don't get this. It's okay "ethically" to use Asian workers to reduce costs but it's not "ethical" if those same Asians cut out the expensive Europeans and turn out a cheaper product?
    That's not the issue at all with these 'problem' Asian goods. The first issue is the legal issue of patent infringement, the second issue is the moral issue of giving your business to the 'cloners' (even if it's legal) who didn't spend the money on R&D, and finally there are quality and support issues such as durability, fit, smoothness, warranty.

    You might feel differently if you were an inventor who'd spent years on an innovative new design.

    For example, see http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=3467568n (there may be a short ad displayed first)

  49. #49
    New Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    5
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Save $

    Just to clarify a few points and stop speculation:

    I simply asked Mr. Rethmeier questions in a PM, based on his comments which I did not agree with or which I found incorrect in relation with the links provided.
    I was NOT:
    -asking for any apologies
    -that he deletes his comments,
    -threatening anybody with legal stuff

    But it is our interest to inform customers that this product is entirely based on ARCA-SWISS intellectual property.

    kdphotography:
    As a side note, Arca apparently has either horrible customer service or an apparent severe apathy towards consumers. I know Capture Integration made several requests for the Cube (yup---a real one!) and Arca apparently didn't think well enough to provide one to a dealer to sell.....

    We have about a dozen Cubes for demonstration purposes at dealers Worldwide. However we are sometimes not able to supply a Cube for a certain
    Show or Demo because they are all out at the dealers or not back in time.

    Regards
    Martin Vogt

  50. #50
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Singapore
    Posts
    332
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    28

    Re: Save $

    I think several people here have painted every country in Asia with one BIG brush when they actually mean China. That in itself shows the ignorance of many Westerners.

    Japan is in ASIA and are you saying Japanese knock off US or European products? Laughable.

    I'm in Singapore and the last time I read a report on product piracy, we were ranked much higher than the US and many European countries, except perhaps, Norway.

    Do I condone knock-offs? Of course not. But I do take issue when people shoot off their mouths with wind that normally comes out of their rear end.

    Sorry about the rant.
    Last edited by Henry Goh; 14th April 2009 at 23:33.

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •