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Do 35mm and Medium Format have the same amount of "front shift"?

Hi,
Just wondering if the amount of effective "front rise" is roughly the same across both full frame 35mm systems and Medium Format systems?

The Canon TS-E lenses provide 12mm of shift whilst a "full frame" Phase and Tech camera combo seem to offer as much as 20mm of front rise...

Are these roughly the same due to the sensor of the Phase One being so much larger?

If that is the case, what is the combination that gives the largest amount of front rise? I currently have a Fuji GFX and use that with a Hasselblad 50mm FLE and Kipon adapter that gives 15mm of front rise....

Is there any combination with roughly the same F.O.V (a 40mm on the 33mm x 44mm would be ok as well) that would give me more? Am asking for the maximum on any system, regardless of actual sensor size..

Thanks in advance! Look forward to hearing your thoughts...
 

marc aurel

Active member
Hi,
Just wondering if the amount of effective "front rise" is roughly the same across both full frame 35mm systems and Medium Format systems?

The Canon TS-E lenses provide 12mm of shift whilst a "full frame" Phase and Tech camera combo seem to offer as much as 20mm of front rise...

Are these roughly the same due to the sensor of the Phase One being so much larger?

If that is the case, what is the combination that gives the largest amount of front rise? I currently have a Fuji GFX and use that with a Hasselblad 50mm FLE and Kipon adapter that gives 15mm of front rise....

Is there any combination with roughly the same F.O.V (a 40mm on the 33mm x 44mm would be ok as well) that would give me more? Am asking for the maximum on any system, regardless of actual sensor size..

Thanks in advance! Look forward to hearing your thoughts...
I generally think of shift capabilities in % of the image heigt. That means: possible shift amount diverted by sensor height. 20mm of front rise on a 54x40mm sensor is 50% of the image height (in landscape orientation). The 12mm shift of the TS-Es on a 36x24mm sensor is 50% too. The 12mm shift of the TS-Es of the 44x33mm GFX sensor is around 36%.

The question is, what does "possible shift" mean and the quality I expect? That depends on the lens and it's image circle - where does hard vignetting start? where is the degradation of image quality too much to be acceptable? do I care of quality degradation at all in cases there is only sky in that part of the image?
Even if your lens or view cam theoretically supports a certain amount of shift - it is not said that you can use all of that amount. Very often the usable shift is much less than that - the very wide lenses by rodenstock for example do not have the image circle for 20mm of shift as far as I know. And the Canon TS-E 24mm can't shift 12mm on the GFX in vertical orientation - you get hard vignetting.

It really depends on the focal length you need to find out what are the advantages and disadvantages of different systems.
 
Cheers Marc, that is really helpful! :)

Have you tried the Canon 50mm TS-E on the GFX by any chance? Any idea how much front rise I can achieve with this setup?
 

marc aurel

Active member
Cheers Marc, that is really helpful! :)

Have you tried the Canon 50mm TS-E on the GFX by any chance? Any idea how much front rise I can achieve with this setup?
The TS-E 50mm L is my favourite lens on the GFX 100. I use the full 12mm of shift in horizontal and vertical orientation. Some vignetting with extreme shifts, but correctable without serious problems. Amazing sharpness. Much better than the TS-E 24mm. The TS-E 90mm L is similar in quality as the 50, but I do not need that focal length as often.
 

rdeloe

Well-known member
To marc's excellent summary, I will only add that it works the other direction too relative to sensor size. I'm now using medium format lenses for shift on a Fuji GFX 50R. However, before that I was doing a lot of shift work on an APS-C sensor using lenses designed for 35mm. The 12mm of shift I could get from the adapter were the equivalent of 18mm of shift on a full frame sensor.

This all makes more sense to me when I diagram it out. Here for example is what a 12mm shift looks like relative to the theoretical image circle of a Pentax 645 lens. It's "theoretical" because some P645 lenses have much larger image circles, and some are low quality at the outer edges. For instance, my 45-85mm P645 zoom lens has an image circle at the mid-point of the range that allows for high quality shifts of 20mm on a GFX sensor.

https://ibb.co/BL3wygq
 
Thanks to both of you for your very informative answers, very helpful.. :)

I should note, I should have written "front rise" in the title but I guess it is roughly the same principle as front shift.


My query is related to playing around with building a camera that is based off this design....

https://www.newsshooter.com/2018/01...built-his-own-8x10-large-format-video-camera/

so not your usual method of needing large amounts of front rise...

I have had some success with it but run into the issue of needing more "front rise" than I currently do.. Without it, the projected image is placed further down (relative to the large format lens) and has the look of everything being "shifted up". I can either crop the final digital image (bit messy and less mpx) or look at achieving more front shift. Easier said than done...

rdeloe, very interesting to hear you note that you are getting the "equivalent" of 18mm of shift when using an apsc sized sensor. What combination of camera + lenses were you were using?

Using Marc Aurel's theory of % of sensor, does that mean that using 15mm of Shift on my GFX is roughly the same as using 11-12mm on full frame?

So it might seem that using apsc might be best but then I am giving up all that lovely sensor real estate of the GFX...
That and I do not currently own an apsc camera..

rdeloe, with regards to your P645 45-85mm lens, you mention you can get large amounts of "front rise" on the mid section of the zoom, just wondering how much "clean" shift can you get with it at the extreme ends? Particularly on the wide 45mm end?

Thanks again, really appreciate your responses!
 

rdeloe

Well-known member
rdeloe, very interesting to hear you note that you are getting the "equivalent" of 18mm of shift when using an apsc sized sensor. What combination of camera + lenses were you were using?

Using Marc Aurel's theory of % of sensor, does that mean that using 15mm of Shift on my GFX is roughly the same as using 11-12mm on full frame?
Like marc said, you need to figure out the % of the frame. A Fuji APS-C sensor is 23.6 mm x 15.6 mm. So if you're using a 12mm rise in landscape mode, you're about 77% of the sensor. A GFX sensor is about 44 x 33 mm. To achieve a 77% rise you need to go up by around 25.4 mm.

So it might seem that using apsc might be best but then I am giving up all that lovely sensor real estate of the GFX...
That and I do not currently own an apsc camera..
I built my APS-C tilt-shift outfit around a Fuji X-T2 and Olympus OM lenses. Read all about it here: https://www.robdeloephotography.com/Pages/Tiltshift-on-APSC You can do exactly the same thing with a different mirrorless APS-C camera and a different lineup of frames designed to cover 35mm film. Or you can use medium format lenses on an APS-C sensor and get a lot more shift room. However, keep in mind that just because you can shift the lens a certain distance doesn't mean the image quality will be any good. The sensor in the X-T2 was designed to have the light rays hitting it straight-on. Coming at an angle might be problematic. Having said that, I've shifted 100% of the size of the sensor on my GFX 50R with no problems. You'll just have to try.


rdeloe, with regards to your P645 45-85mm lens, you mention you can get large amounts of "front rise" on the mid section of the zoom, just wondering how much "clean" shift can you get with it at the extreme ends? Particularly on the wide 45mm end?
Pentax 645 lenses are designed to cover 645 film. The actual area on a piece of 120 film that recorded an image (in other words, not counting the rebate) was less than 60mm x 45mm. Theoretically the P645 lens has an image circle of 75mm (the diagonal of 60mm x 45mm). I assume 72mm to cover the imaged area.

Many Pentax 645 lenses are "tight" to the design image circle, especially the wides. My 35/3.5 is an example. I can shift 10mm cleanly, but 12mm is pushing it. Some zoom lenses have image circles that change depending on focal length. The 45-85 is one. At 45mm the image circle is pretty tight (very much like on my 35/3.5). At 85mm it's bigger than at 45mm, so slightly larger shifts are possible. In the middle, it's huge -- a 20mm shift is fine.

I have found that the easiest way to understand this is to draw it out like this: https://ibb.co/BL3wygq
 
Like marc said, you need to figure out the % of the frame. A Fuji APS-C sensor is 23.6 mm x 15.6 mm. So if you're using a 12mm rise in landscape mode, you're about 77% of the sensor. A GFX sensor is about 44 x 33 mm. To achieve a 77% rise you need to go up by around 25.4 mm.



I built my APS-C tilt-shift outfit around a Fuji X-T2 and Olympus OM lenses. Read all about it here: https://www.robdeloephotography.com/Pages/Tiltshift-on-APSC You can do exactly the same thing with a different mirrorless APS-C camera and a different lineup of frames designed to cover 35mm film. Or you can use medium format lenses on an APS-C sensor and get a lot more shift room. However, keep in mind that just because you can shift the lens a certain distance doesn't mean the image quality will be any good. The sensor in the X-T2 was designed to have the light rays hitting it straight-on. Coming at an angle might be problematic. Having said that, I've shifted 100% of the size of the sensor on my GFX 50R with no problems. You'll just have to try.




Pentax 645 lenses are designed to cover 645 film. The actual area on a piece of 120 film that recorded an image (in other words, not counting the rebate) was less than 60mm x 45mm. Theoretically the P645 lens has an image circle of 75mm (the diagonal of 60mm x 45mm). I assume 72mm to cover the imaged area.

Many Pentax 645 lenses are "tight" to the design image circle, especially the wides. My 35/3.5 is an example. I can shift 10mm cleanly, but 12mm is pushing it. Some zoom lenses have image circles that change depending on focal length. The 45-85 is one. At 45mm the image circle is pretty tight (very much like on my 35/3.5). At 85mm it's bigger than at 45mm, so slightly larger shifts are possible. In the middle, it's huge -- a 20mm shift is fine.

I have found that the easiest way to understand this is to draw it out like this: https://ibb.co/BL3wygq

Hi, Still playing around with this DIY camera and am slowly getting there.

Just reread this post and am wondering how you get 20mm of front rise on your GFX? As far as I know, there is not an adapter out there that enable such extreme movements?

Thanks again! :)
 

rdeloe

Well-known member
Hi, Still playing around with this DIY camera and am slowly getting there.

Just reread this post and am wondering how you get 20mm of front rise on your GFX? As far as I know, there is not an adapter out there that enable such extreme movements?

Thanks again! :)
I have an "adapter" that lets me combine these movements at the same time:

* Up to 70mm of rise on the lens side and camera side (so one is rise and one is fall)
* Up to 25mm of shift (which can be combined to make 50mm)
* Tilt on the lens side or on the camera side
* Swing on the lens side or camera side

The catch is my adapter weighs a bit more than the one from Fotodiox, and it's also a bit bulkier. ;)

 
I have an "adapter" that lets me combine these movements at the same time:

* Up to 70mm of rise on the lens side and camera side (so one is rise and one is fall)
* Up to 25mm of shift (which can be combined to make 50mm)
* Tilt on the lens side or on the camera side
* Swing on the lens side or camera side

The catch is my adapter weighs a bit more than the one from Fotodiox, and it's also a bit bulkier. ;)

Ha Ha! Good One! Yup, might just be a bit more than my Kipon Shift adapter ;)

Any idea what lens would provide that much shift (without the edges falling completely apart) in the 45mm - 50mm focal length? I could probably make a "mini" version for my purposes, if such a lens existed....

Thanks again! :)
 

rdeloe

Well-known member
Ha Ha! Good One! Yup, might just be a bit more than my Kipon Shift adapter ;)

Any idea what lens would provide that much shift (without the edges falling completely apart) in the 45mm - 50mm focal length? I could probably make a "mini" version for my purposes, if such a lens existed....

Thanks again! :)
Believe it or not, a new Kipon Tilt-Shift adapter from B&H for Pentax 645 to Fuji GFX costs $628, but you can buy a good condition used Toyo VX23D for $800-900 if you watch the listings. There are two nice ones in that price range on eBay right now. You have to build, or have someone build, boards to mount the camera and the lenses you're using, but it's neither hard nor expensive. https://www.robdeloephotography.com/Pages/Toyo-VX23D-and-Fuji-GFX-50R

With any adapter on a Fuji GFX camera -- whether my VX23D, a Cambo Actus, or a Kipon/Fotodiox solution -- wide angle lenses are the problem. In a nutshell, technical camera lenses wider than 60mm are generally out. You're going to have to use retrofocus designs (basically, medium format lenses designed for SLR-type cameras).

On my VX23D, I have used a 60mm wide angle enlarging lens, which gives a clean 10mm of shift (more is possible but starts to get dodgy at the edges). That kind of lenses has to be focused with a bellows or rail. A Cambo Actus, and my VX23D, allow for that kind of focus -- you move the front or rear standard back and forth to focus. You can't use that kind of lens on a Kipon or Fotodiox tilt-shift adapter because there's no way to focus even if you can mount it (unless you rig up some kind of focusing helical, but that's awkward, and there are better options).

In the 45mm to 50mm focal length, with medium format lenses that have focus mechanisms, you have a few choices. Your main choices come down to Hasselblad (which covers 6x6 film), Pentax 645, Pentax 67, and Mamiya 645. The biggest image circle and best image quality is going to be the 3rd generation (latest version) of the SMC Pentax 67 55mm f/4 lens. It's this one: https://www.pentaxforums.com/lensreviews/SMC-Pentax-67-55mm-F4-Lens.html (But see below for an alternative that has an image circle that is almost as large, and has excellent image quality.)

The optics on the 3rd generation Pentax 67 55mm lenses are superb, and the image circle was designed to cover 6x7 film. The portion of the film that is image on my 6x7 negatives is 56mm x 69mm, which means the image circle has to be 88.9mm to just cover that -- so call it 90mm to be conservative. The actual area of illumination will be larger, but image quality beyond 90mm is likely to be poor. Here's what a 20mm shift on a 90mm image circle looks like. As you can see, that's pushing you out past the edges of the image circle.



If 55mm is too long, Pentax made a 45mm lens for the 6x7 system. I've used it on a GFX. Where the 55mm is "excellent", the 45m is "Very good". It's definitely not as sharp, but the colours are nice. It shows barrel distortion, but it's simple and easily corrected. I sold my copy because the 45mm end of the SMC Pentax-A 645 45-85mm zoom lens is noticeably better. The tradeoff is that Pentax 645 lenses as a rule have a much smaller image circle than Pentax 67 lenses because they only need to cover a much smaller area of film.

But... here's where we benefit from the zoom lens design. Many zoom lenses have an interesting property: the image circle is "tight" to the film or sensor size at the wide end, increases (sometimes a lot) in the middle of the zoom range, and then decreases back towards the minimum size needed to cover the film/sensor at the long end.

The SMC Pentax-A 645 45-85mm zoom is "very tight" at 45mm, very large at 60mm, and "moderately tight" at 85mm. In practical terms, with this lens I can get 10mm of shift along the long side of the frame at 45mm, and easily 20mm at 60mm. In fact, I've made test pictures with 25mm of shift along the long side of the frame at 60mm where all but the very corner of the frame was usable. That means the image circle is nearly 90mm at the 60mm mark on the lens. It won't be 90mm at the 50mm mark you need, but it will be larger than it is at 45mm.

Not only that, but this is an extremely good lens -- easily as good (and better in some cases) than all the 645 prime lenses in its focal range that have aperture rings. In a long post on DPReview, I compared the 63mm point on this old zoom to the modern GF 63mm f/2.8 lens, and showed that the old zoom easily holds its own. https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/63644793

If you decide to get one of these, I would recommend the FA (autofocus) version. It still has the aperture ring, the optics are identical to the manual A version, and manual focus is fine (not as easy as on the A version, but still very good). The reason I recommend this is the front element doesn't rotate when you focus, like it does on the A version. If you never use polarizing filters, that's not an issue. But I use a CPL a lot, and it's a pain in the butt to have the front rotate; I have to constantly re-adjust my CPL as I change focus in a scene.
 

Shashin

Well-known member
The amount of shift is simply limited by the image circle of the lens and the camera type. 35mm shift lenses were always limited because the mirror box of an SLR would prevent large shift movements. So 35mm has never had the range of movements as larger formats, but that is not a limit format or optical limit, but one placed on the camera design.
 

rdeloe

Well-known member
The amount of shift is simply limited by the image circle of the lens and the camera type. 35mm shift lenses were always limited because the mirror box of an SLR would prevent large shift movements. So 35mm has never had the range of movements as larger formats, but that is not a limit format or optical limit, but one placed on the camera design.

The same problem occurs when shifting on a GFX 50R. There's no mirror box, but the sensor is deeply recessed. As a result, I have lenses that have plenty of image circle to shift more than they can actually be shifted on a GFX 50R simply because the light path is blocked by the front edge of the sensor cavity.

I think another consideration that we sometimes forget is that the sensor is designed to receive light that comes at it in a mostly perpendicular direction. When we shift a lens, the light is hitting the sensor at an angle for which it wasn't designed. That can create problems depending on the design of the lens and the distance between the lens and the sensor. My 120mm Rodenstock Rodagon-WA suffers no ill effects from the largest shift I can physically implement, whereas a 55mm Rodenstock Grandagon I tried last year couldn't be shifted more than a couple mm without ugly lens cast appearing.
 

Audii-Dudii

Active member
Putting aside for a moment all the other, related obstacles you will have to overcome with this project, to achieve 20 mm of rise / fall / shift movement using a sensor that requires a minimum image circle of 55 mm for complete coverage will require a lens that projects an image circle at least 95 mm in diameter.

This is because the increase in image circle size must be at least twice the amount of the maximum shift movement desired; i.e., to achieve 20 mm of shift movement will require the image circle diameter be increased by a minimum of 40 mm.

While I am by no means an expert in these matters, I have been tinkering with my various FrankenKameras, wherein I mix-and-match various lenses and camera bodies with DIY parts to create cameras that provide in-camera rise / fall / shift movements (because for my photography, I rarely need tilt or swing movements), for almost 15 years now and have spent a lot of time thinking outside the box, as well as scrounging around inside of it.

Despite this, I am not aware of any commercially available / affordable lenses of any pedigree in the 40 to 50 mm focal length range that: 1) have a mechanically controlled aperture; 2) come with a built-in focusing helical; 3) project an image circle of 95 mm or larger, and 4) provide excellent image quality to boot.

In short, while I encourage and applaud your DIY efforts, I don't believe you can get there from here given the parameters you've established for this project.

Or to put it another way, you are looking for the equivalent of an albino unicorn, because everyday, average unicorns are common by comparison.

Mind you, I'm not saying that such a lens doesn't exist or cannot be made, only that I have spent a lot of time and effort looking for similar-spec lenses over the years only to come up empty-handed.

As has been pointed out above, your best hope is to find a zoom lens where 40 to 50 mm represents the midpoint of its range and/or experiment with adapting a teleconverter to something like the 25 mm or 28 mm Pentax 645 lenses (because the tele-converter's focal-length multiplication factor will typically apply to the image circle diameter as well.) Unfortunately, both of the Pentax 645 lenses are large, heavy, and relatively expensive, as such things go...

Of course, this also assumes you can successfully address (or at least mitigate) any related obstacles, such as the potential for mechanical vignetting caused by sensor being recessed into the camera body, etc.

If I was tackling this project, as a first step before I buy anything or make any parts, I would spend some time crunching numbers to make certain my goals are within the realm of possibility, otherwise there's a risk of wasting a lot of time and money needlessly and that happens often enough as it is, at least with my projects. <sigh>

That said, good luck to you! And if you care to share the details of your project, I'll bet you will receive some constructive feedback from the handful of experienced DIYers who frequent this forum.

P.S.: Is there a particular reason why you want front shift movements instead of rear shift movements? Because the latter usually make more sense for most purposes and working with them will noticeably quicker and easier, too.
 
Thanks so much for all your input, is greatly appreciated!

With regards to experimenting, I did have most of the items already so there has not been a huge outlay of cashola..

I have the Canon 24mm TS-E II, Pentax 645 35mm, Pentax 67 45mm and the Hasselblad 50mm FLE, using them with shift with a P645-GFX adapter (then others attached to that). I also have a Kipon EF-GFX Shift adapter, so I can "preset" the aperture of the Canon and use the full 15mm of the adapter... Starts to get a bit mushy past 12mm rise though.

Did not know that the P67 55mm was regarded as being so good, might have to check it out.

rdeloe, very interesting to hear your thoughts on zoom lenses and image circle coverage.. I wonder if the wider Pentax 645 zoom, would exhibit similar traits? The 33-55mm? The centre focal length point of that would be ideal actually..

When you say that you have made a 25mm Shift, is that using your Fuji XT-2? Or is this with a GFX?

With regards to shifts using a "shift adapter", I guess I am limited to 15mm Shift on the GFX, as I have not seen an adapter that offers any more front rise than this... Anybody know of one?

I can get acceptable sharpness with most of the lenses, as I am using them quite close to their Minimum Focus Distance, even the Canon 24mm TS-E II does well (at 12mm front rise) despite not really being great past 5-6mm at infinity.
 
rdeloe, thanks for the link comparing the Fuji 63mm and the Pentax zoom...

Very interesting indeed!

Just wondering what you would estimate the "Shift" movements of the 45-85mm when used on the GFX? At the wide, middle and long ends?

Your tests really do show it being able to hold up with the native Fuji 63mm when not shifted, would be very interested to see one with a decent amount of shift?

Thanks again! :)
 
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rdeloe

Well-known member
Thanks so much for all your input, is greatly appreciated!
Did not know that the P67 55mm was regarded as being so good, might have to check it out.
In terms of optics it has an excellent reputation. The only caveat is that I've also read that many copies have a mysterious "rattle". Mine did not. If you decide to buy one, you should confirm with the seller that there is no rattle.

rdeloe, very interesting to hear your thoughts on zoom lenses and image circle coverage.. I wonder if the wider Pentax 645 zoom, would exhibit similar traits? The 33-55mm? The centre focal length point of that would be ideal actually..
In my experience, the only way to know for sure is to buy or borrow one, and then try it out.

I have never used the 33-55mm zoom, and likely won't because it is considered a weak one.

When you say that you have made a 25mm Shift, is that using your Fuji XT-2? Or is this with a GFX?

With regards to shifts using a "shift adapter", I guess I am limited to 15mm Shift on the GFX, as I have not seen an adapter that offers any more front rise than this... Anybody know of one?

I can get acceptable sharpness with most of the lenses, as I am using them quite close to their Minimum Focus Distance, even the Canon 24mm TS-E II does well (at 12mm front rise) despite not really being great past 5-6mm at infinity.
I was referring to the GFX.

If you can be patient, I have an SMC Pentax-A 645 55mm f/2.8 arriving in a week or so. I liked this lens when I shot it on a Sony A7R with Mirex tilt-shift adapters. I found a very nice one for relatively little money, so decided to give it a try for times when I don't want to carry the big 45-85mm zoom. I can report back on the shift capability of that lens.
 

rdeloe

Well-known member
rdeloe, thanks for the link comparing the Fuji 63mm and the Pentax zoom...

Very interesting indeed!

Just wondering what you would estimate the "Shift" movements of the 45-85mm when used on the GFX? At the wide, middle and long ends?

Your tests really do show it being able to hold up with the native Fuji 63mm when not shifted, would be very interested to see one with a decent amount of shift?

Thanks again! :)
It's hard to say more than what I said above (i.e., about 10mm at 45mm, maybe 15mm in the middle of the zoom range, and maybe 12mm at the long end).

It does vary by focus distance (as you said yourself, the image circle is larger at close distances than infinity). Also, sometimes we can shift it a certain distance, but image quality is not acceptable. In thinking about image circles, I find it useful to distinguish between the "circle of illumination" and the "circle of acceptable image quality". The latter is almost always smaller than the former, sometimes by a lot.
 
In terms of optics it has an excellent reputation. The only caveat is that I've also read that many copies have a mysterious "rattle". Mine did not. If you decide to buy one, you should confirm with the seller that there is no rattle.



In my experience, the only way to know for sure is to buy or borrow one, and then try it out.

I have never used the 33-55mm zoom, and likely won't because it is considered a weak one.



I was referring to the GFX.

If you can be patient, I have an SMC Pentax-A 645 55mm f/2.8 arriving in a week or so. I liked this lens when I shot it on a Sony A7R with Mirex tilt-shift adapters. I found a very nice one for relatively little money, so decided to give it a try for times when I don't want to carry the big 45-85mm zoom. I can report back on the shift capability of that lens.
Thanks for the reply, much appreciated!

I actually have that lens and never really use it. I struggle with flare (from above) with it, so it never really gets used. I quite possibly just have a bad copy of it..

That Pentax zoom does sound very interesting, might have to try one..

With regards to image circle, I pretty much only think in terms of what is sharp/useable.. All the lenses I have mentioned, can be shifted 15mm, like you said it really depends on the quality at those extreme edges..


This is a good post that references the Contax 645 35mm as having a huge image circle..

https://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium...ghts-architectural-gfx-image-circle-lens.html

Shooting at close distance like I am, I assume it is even bigger... The only bummer is that there is no way to change the aperture.. :(
 
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