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Do 35mm and Medium Format have the same amount of "front shift"?

Audii-Dudii

Active member
This is a good post that references the Contax 645 35mm as having a huge image circle..

https://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium...ghts-architectural-gfx-image-circle-lens.html

Shooting at close distance like I am, I assume it is even bigger... The only bummer is that there is no way to change the aperture.. :(
Although it's not inexpensive, the Cambo mod does fix this: https://www.cambo.com/en/actus-series/actus-gfx-view-camera/actar-35-retrofit/

It's also possible to control its electronic aperture by stacking various EF and EF-to-C645 smart adapters, although accommodating their physical depth will complicate the design of a camera having in-camera movements.

And in many situations, simply pre-setting the aperture often works well enough to make the lens usable even if the process for doing so is a bit clunky and awkward.

As the saying goes, where there's a will, there's an inheritance ... er, way. :)
 

ErikKaffehr

Well-known member
Hi,
Just wondering if the amount of effective "front rise" is roughly the same across both full frame 35mm systems and Medium Format systems?

The Canon TS-E lenses provide 12mm of shift whilst a "full frame" Phase and Tech camera combo seem to offer as much as 20mm of front rise...

Are these roughly the same due to the sensor of the Phase One being so much larger?

If that is the case, what is the combination that gives the largest amount of front rise? I currently have a Fuji GFX and use that with a Hasselblad 50mm FLE and Kipon adapter that gives 15mm of front rise....

Is there any combination with roughly the same F.O.V (a 40mm on the 33mm x 44mm would be ok as well) that would give me more? Am asking for the maximum on any system, regardless of actual sensor size..

Thanks in advance! Look forward to hearing your thoughts...
Hi,

Each lens has a maximal usable image circle. This would vary from lens to lens. The FLE is calculated for 56x56 mm giving something like 79 mm image circle. With 44 mm width, that would cover 66 mm. which should give (66-33)/2 -> 16.5 mm shift. My guess would be that there may be shading from the internals of the Kipon. (*)

16.5 mm shift corresponds to 24/33 -> 12 mm shift on 24x36.

Best regards
Erik

(*) I have the Mirex tilt/shift adapter for my A7rII. It seems that internal baffles limit possible shift due to vignetting. The Kipon has probably a lot in common with the Mirex. So, 15 mm may be optimistic.
 
Although it's not inexpensive, the Cambo mod does fix this: https://www.cambo.com/en/actus-series/actus-gfx-view-camera/actar-35-retrofit/

It's also possible to control its electronic aperture by stacking various EF and EF-to-C645 smart adapters, although accommodating their physical depth will complicate the design of a camera having in-camera movements.

And in many situations, simply pre-setting the aperture often works well enough to make the lens usable even if the process for doing so is a bit clunky and awkward.

As the saying goes, where there's a will, there's an inheritance ... er, way. :)
Interesting, the Cambo mod could be a way to go, if I had desirable results with the lens, as you say though, far from inexpensive.

With regards to using electronic adapters with the Contax 645 35mm, wouldnt they need to be connected to the camera to make them work? Therefore, no shift is allowed?

What has been your experience with the C645 35mm and the GFX? As chrismuc points out in the previous linked forum post, he is getting 16mm of sharp shift in horizontal and 13mm of sharp shift in vertical.. 16mm is also the max that his Mirex adapter enables, whereas you camera enables more...

I would be looking to use the camera in portrait orientation, so his 13mm of sharp shift is probably the one to use as a reference.. As pointed out, I am looking to use quite close up, so that may enlarge the sharp image circle somewhat...

Thanks for the help and responses, much appreciated! :)
 

Attachments

Audii-Dudii

Active member
With regards to using electronic adapters with the Contax 645 35mm, wouldnt they need to be connected to the camera to make them work? Therefore, no shift is allowed?
Although I don't see any available on eBay at the moment, earlier this year, various eBay sellers were offering package deals on a stacked Kipon G to Canon EF / Canon EF to Contax 645 adapter combo:



As this photo from another source shows, there are no electrical contacts on the rear of the adapter, which implies it will work as a standalone adapter and does not need to be powered from the camera body:



Although I have no experience with any of these adapters, I do own Cambo's smart EF adapter for its Actus model -- which Kipon's version appears to have cloned -- and I can confirm firsthand that it is self-powered and will work without being attached to a camera body.

The tricky part about using these adapters for a different application is their thickness. The Canon EF side is designed around a 44 mm FFD and the Fuji GFX side is designed around a 26.7 mm FFD. (As another data point, the C645 lenses have an FFD of 64.0 mm.)

This means an unmodified Fuji to Canon EF adapter must be 17.3 mm thick (i.e., 44 mm minus 26.7 mm) and there is no room available to add a shift movement, as you noted. However, if the male GFX bayonet is removed from the adapter, this will free some amount of space into which a shift adapter can be grafted and if the entire rear panel of the adapter can be replaced and its controls and LCD mounted remotely (as I can confirm is possible with the Cambo design), this will free even more space that can be used for a shift movement.

As I noted, though, this approach is not without its complications, as the lack of space available for a shift movement means the camera onto which the adapter will be mounted must be designed around the adapter and not the other way around. That said, it clearly is possible, but it will almost certainly require that many of the camera's parts will have to be machined to spec instead of adapted from other cameras or bought off the shelf.

For some, this won't be a big deal, but for others, it will be a deal-killer. And unless one does the machining themselves, it will almost certainly be expensive, too.

Another possible option is to adapt the Arca Swiss smart lens panel for Canon EF lenses instead of the Kipon version:



To my mind, adapting this to work with another camera will likely be quite a bit easier than adapting the Cambo or Kipon versions, as it comes already mounted to a potentially suitable lens board and appears from this photo to be noticeably thinner, too:



One possible caveat: I don't know if the firmware of the Arca smart lens panel will play happily with the firmware of other brand Canon EF to C645 smart adapters, but I do know from past experience trying to stack other smart adapters that this can sometimes be an issue (and an insurmountable issue for someone whose skills are primarily mechanical, such as yours truly.)

Also, as with the other two smart adapters mentioned above, this adapter is not inexpensive. Which is not to suggest that it's overpriced or doesn't offer good value, only that from my perspective, at least, it's not inexpensive.

Speaking of which, Alpa has in the past made similar smart lens panels for Contax 645 lenses -- including one having rise / fall / shift movements, believe it or not! -- but they were very expensive in non-Alpa terms and I have been told they didn't sell well, so have been effectively discontinued, if not formally discontinued. (I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong about this, but IIRC, the price was around $4,000 or some other amount so far beyond what my budget will allow, that I've never given it much thought.)

Another potential issue is the range of movement possible with all of these adapters (except maybe the Alpa version, to which C645 lenses can be mounted directly) before mechanical vignetting occurs, because the throat dimension of the EF lens mount is fairly narrow. Obviously, in this respect, the thinner the adapter, the better, so the Arca version may be able to add another checkmark in its favor.

As is often the case, analyzing photos can only take one so far, hence it will be necessary to actually hold these adapter in one's hands to accurately assess their suitability for a project of the type you appear to be undertaking and, well, good luck with that!

Personally, as much as I love my Contax 645 lenses, I decided the cost of adding an electronic aperture control feature to my FrankenKameras was too much for the modest budget I have available for photography these days, so I've resigned myself (for the time being, anyway!) to using them in preset mode, which costs me nothing. Ditto for my efforts at doing the same for Contax N lenses -- the 17-35/f2.8 zoom is practically a perfect fit for my needs! -- as I destroyed the circuit boards I harvested from two auto-extension tubes by trying to solder longer wires to them before I decided enough was enough and I wasn't willing to possibly throw away another couple of hundred dollars trying a third time to do so. <sigh>

What has been your experience with the C645 35mm and the GFX? As chrismuc points out in the previous linked forum post, he is getting 16mm of sharp shift in horizontal and 13mm of sharp shift in vertical.. 16mm is also the max that his Mirex adapter enables, whereas you camera enables more...
I have zero experience using this camera / lens combo. I have, however, used the C645 35/f3.5 with my A7R via a Cambo WDS-based FrankenKamera quite extensively and posted my observations in this thread: https://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium...contax-35-pc-distagon-gfx-50r.html#post805013

And good luck with your project, however you decide to proceed with it! :)
 
Although I don't see any available on eBay at the moment, earlier this year, various eBay sellers were offering package deals on a stacked Kipon G to Canon EF / Canon EF to Contax 645 adapter combo:



As this photo from another source shows, there are no electrical contacts on the rear of the adapter, which implies it will work as a standalone adapter and does not need to be powered from the camera body:



Although I have no experience with any of these adapters, I do own Cambo's smart EF adapter for its Actus model -- which Kipon's version appears to have cloned -- and I can confirm firsthand that it is self-powered and will work without being attached to a camera body.

The tricky part about using these adapters for a different application is their thickness. The Canon EF side is designed around a 44 mm FFD and the Fuji GFX side is designed around a 26.7 mm FFD. (As another data point, the C645 lenses have an FFD of 64.0 mm.)

This means an unmodified Fuji to Canon EF adapter must be 17.3 mm thick (i.e., 44 mm minus 26.7 mm) and there is no room available to add a shift movement, as you noted. However, if the male GFX bayonet is removed from the adapter, this will free some amount of space into which a shift adapter can be grafted and if the entire rear panel of the adapter can be replaced and its controls and LCD mounted remotely (as I can confirm is possible with the Cambo design), this will free even more space that can be used for a shift movement.

As I noted, though, this approach is not without its complications, as the lack of space available for a shift movement means the camera onto which the adapter will be mounted must be designed around the adapter and not the other way around. That said, it clearly is possible, but it will almost certainly require that many of the camera's parts will have to be machined to spec instead of adapted from other cameras or bought off the shelf.

For some, this won't be a big deal, but for others, it will be a deal-killer. And unless one does the machining themselves, it will almost certainly be expensive, too.

Another possible option is to adapt the Arca Swiss smart lens panel for Canon EF lenses instead of the Kipon version:



To my mind, adapting this to work with another camera will likely be quite a bit easier than adapting the Cambo or Kipon versions, as it comes already mounted to a potentially suitable lens board and appears from this photo to be noticeably thinner, too:



One possible caveat: I don't know if the firmware of the Arca smart lens panel will play happily with the firmware of other brand Canon EF to C645 smart adapters, but I do know from past experience trying to stack other smart adapters that this can sometimes be an issue (and an insurmountable issue for someone whose skills are primarily mechanical, such as yours truly.)

Also, as with the other two smart adapters mentioned above, this adapter is not inexpensive. Which is not to suggest that it's overpriced or doesn't offer good value, only that from my perspective, at least, it's not inexpensive.

Speaking of which, Alpa has in the past made similar smart lens panels for Contax 645 lenses -- including one having rise / fall / shift movements, believe it or not! -- but they were very expensive in non-Alpa terms and I have been told they didn't sell well, so have been effectively discontinued, if not formally discontinued. (I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong about this, but IIRC, the price was around $4,000 or some other amount so far beyond what my budget will allow, that I've never given it much thought.)

Another potential issue is the range of movement possible with all of these adapters (except maybe the Alpa version, to which C645 lenses can be mounted directly) before mechanical vignetting occurs, because the throat dimension of the EF lens mount is fairly narrow. Obviously, in this respect, the thinner the adapter, the better, so the Arca version may be able to add another checkmark in its favor.

As is often the case, analyzing photos can only take one so far, hence it will be necessary to actually hold these adapter in one's hands to accurately assess their suitability for a project of the type you appear to be undertaking and, well, good luck with that!

Personally, as much as I love my Contax 645 lenses, I decided the cost of adding an electronic aperture control feature to my FrankenKameras was too much for the modest budget I have available for photography these days, so I've resigned myself (for the time being, anyway!) to using them in preset mode, which costs me nothing. Ditto for my efforts at doing the same for Contax N lenses -- the 17-35/f2.8 zoom is practically a perfect fit for my needs! -- as I destroyed the circuit boards I harvested from two auto-extension tubes by trying to solder longer wires to them before I decided enough was enough and I wasn't willing to possibly throw away another couple of hundred dollars trying a third time to do so. <sigh>



I have zero experience using this camera / lens combo. I have, however, used the C645 35/f3.5 with my A7R via a Cambo WDS-based FrankenKamera quite extensively and posted my observations in this thread: https://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium...contax-35-pc-distagon-gfx-50r.html#post805013

And good luck with your project, however you decide to proceed with it! :)

Wowsers! Thanks so much for such an in-depth reply, greatly appreciated!

I have zero technical knowledge when it comes to both electronics or machining, so fiddling with an electronic adapter to get aperture control is out for me...

I think I would look at getting the modified aperture version that I linked to in the thread you referenced. Super steep price but would probably come out about the same if I started fiddling about with the electronics in adapters and the replacement of them when I would (undoubtedly) fry them... :(

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/264680715261?ul_noapp=true

It might be worth getting and seeing how it performs and then returning if it doesnt..

I am sure if i purchased it, a dedicated shift lens would come out in the 30mm range, that would probably smoke all the current options... Well, one can hope anyway..

Thanks again for all your help, is really helpful and most appreciated! :)
 

rdeloe

Well-known member
Wowsers! Thanks so much for such an in-depth reply, greatly appreciated!

I have zero technical knowledge when it comes to both electronics or machining, so fiddling with an electronic adapter to get aperture control is out for me...

I think I would look at getting the modified aperture version that I linked to in the thread you referenced. Super steep price but would probably come out about the same if I started fiddling about with the electronics in adapters and the replacement of them when I would (undoubtedly) fry them... :(

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/264680715261?ul_noapp=true

It might be worth getting and seeing how it performs and then returning if it doesnt..

I am sure if i purchased it, a dedicated shift lens would come out in the 30mm range, that would probably smoke all the current options... Well, one can hope anyway..

Thanks again for all your help, is really helpful and most appreciated! :)
If you go this route, I'm curious to hear how things turn out. Do let us know!

Were it me, I think I would try the 3rd generation Pentax 645 lens first, if for no other reason than it costs less than 1/2 the one you're looking at.

On a related note, I have to emphasize how important the adapter is in all of this, especially when you're using heavy lenses. A very slight tilt effect from an adapter that has a bit of vertical play in it can completely throw off your results. Case in point is my 45-85mm lens which is heavy enough to create a tiny bit of tilt on my setup even when I think it's in the neutral position. It's quite noticeable against flat subjects parallel to the sensor.
 
If you go this route, I'm curious to hear how things turn out. Do let us know!

Were it me, I think I would try the 3rd generation Pentax 645 lens first, if for no other reason than it costs less than 1/2 the one you're looking at.

On a related note, I have to emphasize how important the adapter is in all of this, especially when you're using heavy lenses. A very slight tilt effect from an adapter that has a bit of vertical play in it can completely throw off your results. Case in point is my 45-85mm lens which is heavy enough to create a tiny bit of tilt on my setup even when I think it's in the neutral position. It's quite noticeable against flat subjects parallel to the sensor.
Yes, good advice! I think the more I delve into this, the more I feel that I am reaching the limits of what is possible. As Audii-Dudii pointed out, a Albino Unicorn maybe....

I think what I will need to do (and did not want to) is use as much front shift as I can and then crop the image on the bottom and sides, essentially giving me more front "shift". This obviously results in a smaller file size and is not nearly as neat but I guess I would rather have a smaller megapixel image that is clean, than one that covers everything but is going into the "mushy" part of the image circle...

Thanks again for all your input, much appreciated! :)
 
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