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Thread: Going back to Full Frame DSLR

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    Senior Member ndwgolf's Avatar
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    Going back to Full Frame DSLR

    I've had all the top end MF cameras and everything Leica has thrown at me, but I find myself going back to everything that I've shot with my Nikon gear and think man I've waisted so so much money with all that fancy gear when my Nikon images are as good if not better than all the hype.
    Anyone else feel the same, or am I just getting grumpy in my old age.
    Neil
    My all NEW Website can be seen HERE
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    Re: Going back to Full Frame DSLR

    yes, yes ...
    Bart ...

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    Re: Going back to Full Frame DSLR

    Quote Originally Posted by ndwgolf View Post
    I've had all the top end MF cameras and everything Leica has thrown at me, but I find myself going back to everything that I've shot with my Nikon gear and think man I've waisted so so much money with all that fancy gear when my Nikon images are as good if not better than all the hype.
    Anyone else feel the same, or am I just getting grumpy in my old age.
    Neil
    As you say old age may or may not be of much help !
    Keep just a basic MF, just in case--- even for some weighlifting walk about.

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    Re: Going back to Full Frame DSLR

    As always with camera questions, the answer is: it depends. But I think almost al manufacturers are happy with that sentiment, it means another switch and switches mean money.

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    Re: Going back to Full Frame DSLR

    I vote for getting grumpy.

    G
    Godfrey - GDGPhoto Flickr Stream
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    Re: Going back to Full Frame DSLR

    My philosophy is that I think you make the best photo's with the gear you're most comfortable with and know best.

    That's why the rat race and constant switching to find the "best" new camera (system) and switch brands/formats is generally unproductive, albeit that can be fun as well, but as you say it's also expensive and does little for the quality of your photos in general.

    What are you seeing in your Nikon photo's that's missing in the others?

    And as for getting grumpy I don't know, we all get grumpy once in a while and the current lockdown probably increases the frequency.
    My Pics
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    Senior Member dave.gt's Avatar
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    Re: Going back to Full Frame DSLR

    Grumpy.
    Dave (GT)
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    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
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    Re: Going back to Full Frame DSLR

    It depends on what you enjoy shooting .

    If you want to shoot long telephotos, high speed action or very high ISO ...then Nikon or Canon are superb systems . Lets leave out Canon or the Sony A9 for the moment . Its Nikon verse Leica or the MF alternatives . Lets assume you decide that the D850 is the most versatile Nikon offering . After that it depends on the lenses you choose .

    The biggest weakness I have found in the NIKON DSLR is the ability to use and focus MANUAL FOCUS lenses . I converted a bunch of Leica R lenses to Nikon mounts and bough a Zeiss OTUS . Image quality on (at that time a D810) was just superb ....but the ability to focus wide open was just ..impossible.

    The other advantage Nikon has over Leica and some of the MF alternatives is the ability to use strobes (Profoto in particular has made incredible advances in smaller highly capable lighting systems ) . These require manual operation on a Leica and many of the MF options .

    The other issue is size ...you use the cameras you are willing to carry . My wife shot for 3 years with the Nikon D750 mostly with a 50/14af and set wide open . The image quality was just superb for our grandkids . She went to a Leica CL ...an APS C EVF ... image quality is excellent but aimed at travel photography ..punchy ,high saturation (skin tones require work ). Of course this can be tuned to taste . She loves the Leica CL and would never go back ..because of the size and build quality .

    So to evaluate any kit and really determine the pro s and con s ..you need a hard look at what you will be shooting ....subjects ,lighting and focal lengths . I really believe in kit that is set up for specific applications . I have broken all the general rules ..like using Leica M s for sport ...but I come back to my best (and most efficient ) work is when I get the kit matched to the application .
    Roger Dunham
    http://rogerdunham.com/
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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Going back to Full Frame DSLR

    I did it about 8 years back right after the D800e was released. My take at the time was that net IQ was "close enough" to being on par with my IQ180/tech cam and newest digital MF glass that the net differences didn't matter very much. Even for big prints, which I was doing fewer of... MF color was better, but that margin narrowed significantly with the D810. It's only gotten better with the 45MP sensors. But to be 100% objective, the real impetus behind my decision back then was I was simply getting priced out of the MF market; I didn't have the financial ability to keep upgrading so got off that train...

    That said, I still miss the 'gestalt' unique to using a tech cam to create.

    Full course, I've recently sold off all of my DSLR bodies and most of my DSLR glass, and gone mirrorless with the Z7 and mostly dedicated Z lenses, though the line is a little thin right now -- but you can adapt darn near any lens from any manufacturer to it.

    So, do I miss MF? Yes, I still do on occasion. But I do not miss what was for me an out of hand expenditure for owning the gear, especially when compared to modern FF solutions...
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."
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    Senior Member stngoldberg's Avatar
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    Re: Going back to Full Frame DSLR

    The following is my take:
    Firstly regarding strobes the connectivity between medium format cameras and strobes is excellent.
    I happen to have an Elinchrom system with my Phase One camera and Arca Swiss camera, but I have attended Profoto workshops and their systems with medium format are also widely used
    Secondly for bird photography and surfer images, a DSLR is the correct tool for those jobs; however for images of birds that are not flying, I gravitate to medium format because, in my view, the image is superior in detail and color rendition.
    Thirdly photography for me is about having a joyful experience...attempting to create something artistic...experimenting to make the best compositions...escaping from whatever issues of the day...so when I am able to use a technical camera with a large megapixel back and I have good light...wow
    Stanley
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    Re: Going back to Full Frame DSLR

    The camera that makes you the happiest will deliver the images you like the best.
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    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
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    Re: Going back to Full Frame DSLR

    Quote Originally Posted by stngoldberg View Post
    The following is my take:
    Firstly regarding strobes the connectivity between medium format cameras and strobes is excellent.
    I happen to have an Elinchrom system with my Phase One camera and Arca Swiss camera, but I have attended Profoto workshops and their systems with medium format are also widely used
    Secondly for bird photography and surfer images, a DSLR is the correct tool for those jobs; however for images of birds that are not flying, I gravitate to medium format because, in my view, the image is superior in detail and color rendition.
    Thirdly photography for me is about having a joyful experience...attempting to create something artistic...experimenting to make the best compositions...escaping from whatever issues of the day...so when I am able to use a technical camera with a large megapixel back and I have good light...wow
    Stanley
    Stan

    Have you tried strobes both with a MF camera and with a dedicated TTL camera ? Of course pros have been using strobes with every type of camera since the days we evaluated exposure with a HB and a Polaroid back . Strobes used in manual require either a fixed setting (e.g. studio ) or really strong craft skills. If can control the environment and have time to dial in the balance ,exposure etc ...using strobes manually works well . The advances from vendors such as Profoto have been in creating MOBILE systems (e.g. A1 ) and integrating the TTL functions into the camera . This can be a game changer for event and wedding photographers dealing with changing light situations . Also pretty darn nice for fashion and editorial assignments .

    So it always depends on “what you plan to shoot “ and the “craft skills” you are willing to master .

    Roger

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    Re: Going back to Full Frame DSLR

    grumpy

    I am long term S user and tried a lot in between. I have checked almost all brands, Canon 5dII, Nikon Z6, Z7, m43, dx (D500), Leica SL/SL2, Pana S1r,...

    Right now my main system(s) are SL2, S007 and recently a D500 for fast action.

    I have shot various times comparisons between S and SL2.

    My take:
    S-sensor + S-lenses render very natural, color is even slightly better than SL2, great midtones, smooth transition to background

    FF/SL2: Very sharp, very good color, nice contrast, a little less tonality in midtones (compared to S), and while very good bokeh not as smooth transition to background.
    When I had the Z6 I like the combo a lot but I prefer "Leica color" over Nikon color.

    I love the D500 for the speed in C-AF.

    Why not use the S for special things and occasions, where size and weight is not an issue, and use your Nikon when you want faster pace or Zooms or long reach?
    I mean - you allready own the S-equipment, and used prices are down anyways.

    And while I am sure FF delivers very good IQ, I feel I cann still see the difference when using S gear. I dont know how much comes from lenses and how much from sensor.
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    Senior Member Joe Colson's Avatar
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    Re: Going back to Full Frame DSLR

    Quote Originally Posted by ndwgolf View Post
    I've had all the top end MF cameras and everything Leica has thrown at me, but I find myself going back to everything that I've shot with my Nikon gear and think man I've waisted so so much money with all that fancy gear when my Nikon images are as good if not better than all the hype.
    Anyone else feel the same, or am I just getting grumpy in my old age.
    Neil
    Most of us, when asked this question, venture off into comparisons of various manufacturers' systems and the conversation devolves into a "mine is bigger than yours" contest. To answer your specific question, yes, I feel the same. And yes, I'm getting more grumpy in my old age. I've been through what seems like an endless timeline of medium format cameras, starting with the Hasselblad H4D, and now feel the results I can get with a mirrorless full-frame 35mm camera are in the "good enough" zone and very close to what I can achieve with a medium format camera with the equivalent number of megapixels. At about 40-50MP, I can print 17x22" at 300dpi with very good results from either system. Right now, I'm enjoying a Leica SL2 and a Hasselblad X1D II. If I pixel peep, the X1D II has better IQ, but it takes some serious pixel peeping at 100% magnification to see the difference. For most of my photography, the SL2 fits the need.

    For me, the other practical difference is lens lineup. Few, if any, of the medium format systems have native mount lens lineups that rival those of 35mm full-frame alternatives. Even the L-mount and Z-mount "new kids on the block" have lenses (and lens roadmaps) that I can only wish existed for the Hasselblad X (or the Fuji GFX).

    So Neil, you're not alone. I'm not going to shed my Hasselblad anytime soon, but if push came to shove, I'd divest it before I let go of my 35mm full-frame kit. Just my two cents.

    Joe
    _________________________________
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    Re: Going back to Full Frame DSLR

    I've gotten excellent, satisfying photographs with a bevy of FourThirds, Micro-FourThirds, APS-C, and FF format digital cameras. Literally thousands of them. I've sold them, licensed them, made a living from them, won exhibitions with them, etc etc. I continue to use my APS-C Leica CL and make tons of great photographs with it.

    So why did I spend the money to acquire the latest Hasselblad 907x/CFVII 50c back? The answer is simple: Because I was looking for something specific in the qualities of photographs made with ultra-wide lenses that requires a larger capture format.

    It is this specific 'something' that makes photographs from a Hasselblad SWC or other medium format film camera very different from the same photographs made with a 35mm film camera and a lens that provides the same angle of view. The something is the specific coupling of focus zone (depth of field, if you would) and field of view that is dependent upon precisely the size of the format and its relationship to the focal length of the lens and the size of the taking aperture.

    There are other benefits to the medium format digital cameras as well, of course. And they're all worthwhile benefits, although many of them are slowly being approached by the best FF format sensors. But the DoF-FoV relationship cannot be approached by anything but specific capture format vs focal length attributes —*you'll never get the same relationship with a FF, or APS-C, or FourThirds format camera. (In truth, you won't get the same relationship with any two of the four, but those three are all much more similar than jumping up one more notch to 33x44 and beyond.)

    If this specific quality of a medium format digital camera is not significant to your photography, then sticking with FF makes good sense given the price, quality, and availability of top-line FF systems today.

    It has taken me many years to feel that what I wanted was worth the price and for the prices to come down to where I could stretch to afford them. I'm not endowed with enough excess wealth to consider hopping about different MFD systems for the joy of "finding just the right one." So I made my choice on the basis of "what do I have now that I can move forward into the MFD world" along with "emotionally, what do I like?" I've made my decision to go with this Hasselblad system because it integrates so well with my existing Hasselblad V system AND because I like the concept it expresses much more than the competition. It's not perfect by any means... But it's good enough for my purposes because it gives me what I wanted when I considered buying it.

    You have to make your own decisions on these things, after doing the business of making photographs, seeing what worked or didn't work, studying the reasons as to why that might be, and considering what might do the job you want. There are no magic bullets; there are no perfect systems. There are only tools and your creativity, photographic vision, and skills to use them.

    G

    "Equipment is transitory. Photographs endure."
    Godfrey - GDGPhoto Flickr Stream
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    Re: Going back to Full Frame DSLR

    I've also owned quite a bit of gear in MFD, but thankfully sold most of it before the prices really dropped. It is amazing how planned obsolescence has, and will continue to make paperweights out of once considered "high end"cameras. Full frame mirrorless, such as the Nikon Z7, Canon EOS R with the newest lenses are leaps and bounds better than any MFD i've owned. Print size was primarily the reason I got into MFD, but with digital, I started pixel peeping at 200% (don't be that guy) to look for artifacts and any other thing I could complain about. I expected perfection, but what I was missing was character and composition. I've only had one client order a print that was 4 feet on the long side that easily could be taken today with the Nikon Z7 and 50mm 1.8S. However, film photography has me captivated now with the build quality of older mechanical cameras. Clients pay more for film shoots and often mistakes such as flare, OOF, or low contrast are viewed as creative and intrinsic to Fine Art. Plus, there's great deals on gear too!
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    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
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    Re: Going back to Full Frame DSLR

    Obviously you have decide is good enough .....verse cost the trade off you are seeking . If it is then no question 35MM is the sweet spot for price-performance . No question ...


    1. Clearly defining your requirements ..so many of the systems are “purpose designed “ they may be perfect for many users and not so great for others . I do 80% street and travel ,10% landscape/seascape and 10% sport . I prefer color but am moving into a phase where I really try to make black and white work . This is a big big difference from one of my friends. He does 80% landscape and of that is specializing in B&W ..he does a little travel in color and maybe 15% in B&W street. Neither of use use strobes to any measurable percentage . I can see exceptionally well for an old guy without vision correction (small +diopter adjustment dials it in ) ..My buddy has poor eyesight and avoids rangefinder cameras . (sorry no MONO ).

    2. Cost is not an issue for either of us ..but time is . So ease of use to get the very best is important . We both suffer from way to much gear and its a problem ...always buying and sometimes selling . I hate that part of the hobby .

    I just love the new HB systems but they just don t fit my requirements ...they are just too darn slow for street photography (its a square peg in a round hole ) . They also would require a real effort to learn FOCUS (raw conversions )
    to get the very best image quality . I started with a HB 500C ..50 years ago and I just love their cameras . I grew up with this moon photographs on my wall . (when they were current ).

    So every time I get ready to buy that beautiful 907 ...I think ...OH NO ..think of the work required .

    Since this is GEAR SWITCH thread ..I would encourage you to really get down ..the type of work you plan to be doing with it .

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    Senior Member dave.gt's Avatar
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    Re: Going back to Full Frame DSLR

    What's wrong with using both?

    Seriously, I have used both extensively at the same time and will probably do it again. There is no rule that says there can only be one system. Enjoy life, it is too short as it is.
    Dave (GT)
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    Re: Going back to Full Frame DSLR

    I think it’s far easier to dip your toe back in the MFD waters now with the current offerings available, while P1 reaches the stratosphere there are loads more options at the more affordable end of the market and they offer even more value used. It’s no longer the big leap it was to go up a sensor size.
    They are just tools for a job.

  20. #20
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    Re: Going back to Full Frame DSLR

    Different tools for different jobs. I have a Sony mirrorless system and a bunch of glass and I'm very pleased with it - especially when I need a long reach for wildlife.

    But....I get more satisfaction using my Phase gear. I just plain prefer it. Yes, the differences in its files compared to the Sony are not huge - but to my eye they're there. DR, micro-contrast and colour are better as I see it. And having used it for (admittedly mostly large) wildlife in Africa recently, I'm even more hooked.

    So I'm not grumpy at all....just lucky to have two sets of tools.
    Bill CB

    www.billcaulfeild-browne.ca
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    Re: Going back to Full Frame DSLR

    I am happy with my Fuji APS-C gear!



    Still, I have my Pentax 645D, which takes pictures that are as wonderful now as they were when I bought it. Given the amount of work it has done and will continue to do, it really isn't that expensive.


    The real limits to my photography are not my gear...
    Will

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    Senior Member ndwgolf's Avatar
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    Re: Going back to Full Frame DSLR

    Wow so many replies...........please give me an hour or so to look through them and I will get back with you all

    Neil
    My all NEW Website can be seen HERE

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    Senior Member Abstraction's Avatar
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    Re: Going back to Full Frame DSLR

    It seems to me that MF digital made sense some years ago when everyone was shooting APS-C or APS-H at 3-8Mp while MF backs offered 20-30Mp. Even though the backs and their integration were clunky, expensive and perhaps not as reliable, people who needed the benefits of what higher resolution has to offer (not just in print size) had to bite the bullet and get into the MF. As time went on and the smaller formats began to catch up, the ability to slap a back on a technical camera and even greater resolution in the 50-80 range still set the MF apart, although the price delta was huge vs the quality gains. Once FF cameras hit the 40-50mp mark, MF digital stopped making sense unless it's for very specialized purposes. As I see it, only two MF systems make any sense today (aside from tech camera backs) - Fuji GFX100 and Phase 4150. If you need such high resolution, then obviously, there's no place else to go (yet). However, $60k for a Phase outfit is REALLY hard to justify even with all the benefits that it offers. I gather that in a few months, $10k for a Fuji 100 will be hard to justify as well.

    So, I think there are some really good reasons to abandon MF and it's not just you being grumpy. Then again, I've been grumpy since the day I was born.

  24. #24
    Senior Member ndwgolf's Avatar
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    Re: Going back to Full Frame DSLR

    Okay let me try and explain. I worked in the Oil & Gas industry (offshore oil Rigs) for 40 years. Its a tuff life in every sense. Out of that 40 years I have spent 20 years away from my family and friends working in extremely difficult environments and working hard 12 hours a day everyday,in return I have been paid really well............... Okay enough of that bit.

    So my thinking was this, if I am going to risk my life every time I get onto a helicopter to go and work in the North Sea then I am sure as hell going to enjoy myself when I get home, and enjoy myself I did.

    Back in 2009 I had some immigration issues in Thailand so me and my Thai wife went and stayed in Kuala Lumpur Malaysia. Before I came off the rig I called my wife and asked here to bring my Nikon D something camera from the bottom drawer in our bedroom as I fancied trying my hand again at photography. When I got home, after taking care of business I had a look at my old camera sitting on the kitchen table and noticed that all the rubber parts had perished, I made a few phone calls and asked around and was told that they have a big Nikon service center in KL. So later that day me and my wife went into town to visit the Nikon service Center. I asked the staff if they had any cleaner that I could use on my camera as it was sticky to which they replied for about 50 quid they could replace all the rubber parts. So I dropped off the camera and was told to come back in 2 hours time. On returning I couldn't believe it was the same camera......it looked so so new. While waiting to pay the bill I noticed a poster on the wall saying that they were holding a two day training class for the new Nikon D7000. I asked the lady if i could join the class and she said sure you can. She started to take my details when one of the other staff members came over and asked me if I had a D7000, I showed her my D something camera and said this is my only camera, she then told me that the class was for customers with the D7000 and that I would not be able to do, so me being me, I had to argue the fact that all I wanted to do was learn the basics so that I could stop shooting with the GREEN AUTO button. She again said no so we went back and forward yes/no yes/no to eventually she just walked away and didn't want to listen to my BS any more.

    I paid for the repairs to my camera and walked across the shopping mall to another camera store and bought a new Nikon D7000. I walked back to the Nikon Center and asked the same lady to sign me up for the nikon class (She is giving me the look of WTF doesn't this guy understand to which I pulled out the new D7000 and we proceeded with the registration for the class.

    I took the class and it was at that point I was hooked on Photography. I signed up for many camera workshops not only to learn photography but to find other photographers to go and shoot with. Over the next couple of months I had joined a group of photographers and went away on my first photo trip to Cebu in the Philippines. While on that trip I met a professional photographer called Yusuf Hashim who kind of took me under his wing and would tell me to do this and that and what for. Yusuf shoots with a Canon but because I had already bought the trinity of Nikon lenses being the 14/24 24/70/70/200 he advised me to stick with Nikon but to maybe upgrade to a full frame body. As soon as we arrived back in KL I went to the Nikon center and bought a D3S (Man I liked the look of that camera). I was on a roll and me and my beautiful wife would go out taking pictures everyday, one of the guys I met invited me to go and take bird pictures so I rocked up with my 70/200 on the D3S to see him with a cheap 24/800 or something crazy like that and dressed in full battle fatigues. As you can imaging the birding experience was a disaster. Later when I got home I called Yusuf and asked him about it. He started telling me about this new 300mm f2.8 lens that Canon had given him to go and shoot the bull races in Pacu Jawi Indonesia. He asked me if I wanted to join the trip which was in 6 weeks time (perfect timing, go back to the rig make some money and yes buy myself the 300mm f2.8 lens so that I could look like Yusuf That is my picture below

    Click image for larger version. 

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    While on this trip there were a couple of knobs who had Leica rangefinders with them and they were in the back of the bus talking Leica this and Leica that, to which Yusuf would say I cant wait to see your bull racing pictures taken with your bling bling shiny Leica cameras and laughing away.............I couldn't help but notice these little shinny cameras looked quite Neil like so I made some more enquiries and the following trip I bought myself my first of many Leica M cameras and lenses. By this time I was hooked on the Leica brand and to Yusuf disgust he would alway rib me about how most of my pictures were either out of focus or the composition was off or anything. Another very good photographer called Hamni was a Nikon guy, he had a D3s the same as me and we would go out shooting street photography in China Town in KL. He would have his D3s and 70/200 and I would be fumbling around with my M9 and Noctilux 0.95 missing shots and getting frustrated every time Hamni came up to me with a WOW picture on the back of his LCD.

    By this time I was friendly with the owner of the Leica store in KL and vented my frustrations of why Yusuf and Hamni could always get better pictures with there Nikon/Canon gear that what I could with my Leica gear, to which he replied it probably had something to do with the speed of the AF verse the fiddly rangefinder.............2 days later I had a new Leica S006 and 3 new S lenses.

    The following trip me and my wife went back to Scotland for a family vacation and I took my new shinny Leica S gear with me, on day 2 of the trip the S70mm auto focus **** itself followed 3 days later by the S30mm lens. I was gutted and yes very pissed off. When I arrived back in KL I dropped the two lenses off at Leica and was told I would get them back in a few weeks...........2 1/2 months later I got them back.

    The following trip me and my wife went to switzerland and this time the camera lasted 4 or 5 days before the S120 mm lens **** itself not only that but I was spending more time pulling the battery than taking pictures.

    Speaking of photographing my wife at first she was cool with me taking beautiful portrait style pictures, now when I point a camera at her she scours at me and hands me her iphone to take her picture.

    So where is all this leading to. Both my mates Yusuf and Hamni still shoot with there Canon and Nikon cameras and take amazing pictures of everything. Wildlife, pretty girls landscape street photography everything. Whereas I have spent 100s of thousands of dollars chasing a dream picture that I keep getting with my Nikon gear and every now and then with my H6D100c or my S007 or my M10 Q2 and more.

    Since being diagnosed with PTSD back in 2017 I no longer enjoy street photography and limit my photography to wildlife, birds and nature so the trusty Nikon gear is my camera of choice. Yesterday I sold my D810 and bought a new D850 (I guess I haven't lost the urge to spend spend spend) but at least its in the 3k range rather than the 30k range

    I have sold all the Leica M gear the H6D gear and Im left with my Nikon D850 a few lenses and my film gear (maybe one day I will venture out and try my hand at that side of photography) The Leica S gear is still with me but due to the fact that it all cost me ~$40k and is now only worth 4k I will keep it and give it to one of my kids if they show any interest in Photography.

    While on lockdown I decided to make a new website just for the hell of it and to pass time stuck in the house https://neilwilliamsfineart.com/ There is a mixture of FF MF LF and 120 film, but for me my favorite pictures are shot with a Nikon FF camera.

    Sorry for the long post but hopefully this will answer some of your questions

    Neil
    My all NEW Website can be seen HERE
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  25. #25
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    Re: Going back to Full Frame DSLR

    Quote Originally Posted by ndwgolf View Post
    ...
    While on lockdown I decided to make a new website just for the hell of it and to pass time stuck in the house https://neilwilliamsfineart.com/ There is a mixture of FF MF LF and 120 film, but for me my favorite pictures are shot with a Nikon FF camera.

    Sorry for the long post but hopefully this will answer some of your questions
    Well, Neil, I don't really have any questions for you.

    But it sounds like you've answered your own questions nicely: If you're favorite pictures are shot with a Nikon FF camera, the heck with all the other stuff. Sell all of that stuff, keep your Nikon gear, and concentrate on your Photography ... not your camera equipment. That is the only way to achieve excellence in Photography, not chasing the perfect equipment.

    G
    Godfrey - GDGPhoto Flickr Stream
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    Senior Member Abstraction's Avatar
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    Re: Going back to Full Frame DSLR

    Notice an interesting aspect of all this: The guys whose work you admire stick with the gear they have. They know what they need, they got the tools and now, they spend their time photographing, perfecting their craft and creating art. Gear does not make a photographer. Gear is there to facilitate getting the result you need. Nothing more. If you're doing bird photography, you need a long lens. You can't do it effectively without it. However, it makes little to no difference what make/model that lens is.

    The same goes for cameras. If you're creating large prints, you need X megapixels to maintain the print quality at large sizes. However, it makes no difference which manufacturer those pixels came from. The ONE thing that you camera ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY has to be and that's reliable. So, if your Nikon is reliable and you are able to get the types of shots that you want of the subjects that you want, then stick to what you have. Know your equipment and use it to the max.

    BTW, I love the bull pic. It's great.

  27. #27
    Senior Member darr's Avatar
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    Re: Going back to Full Frame DSLR

    Who cares what gear you use as long as it does not get in the way.

    I shoot APS-C, medium format digital and film, and 4x5. My favorite camera is whatever I am using at the moment.

    If someone thinks a medium format digital camera will miraculously change their photography for the better, then they are drinking merchandising kool-aid. What it will do is make you slow down as it dictates a more methodical way to shoot than say an APS-C.

    There are subject matter that is not conducive to a methodical way of shooting. I enjoy still life more than action so I continue to shoot 4x5 in a studio environment. Whatever speaks to you and brings you joy, that is where you should go.

    Enjoy your Nikon!
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    Re: Going back to Full Frame DSLR

    Just sold my H3D to go with a Fuji X-T30 (gasp).

    The Blad was really superior for close studio portraits where the unique combination of DOF and FOV of an MF camera really shone, but for every other application I found that my Fuji X-Pro 2 delivered 95% equivalent images with much greater convenience and a higher hit-rate. Budget was a major consideration; it's a hobby that I take seriously, but for the budget I have and the desire to have a more maniable camera with high ISO, fast AF etc, the choices were a near new Fuji or an older larger sensor camera (5D Mk2 or 3 etc).

    In terms of look etc, the look i really loved, loved, loved, was the Ixpress fat pixel back on my 500CM and a 80mm Zeiss Planar. It was unique and precious. My eyesight deteriorated and I started to miss so many shots that I needed to switch to an AF system. A deal on an H3D came along and the rest was history. However, despite being the same brand, a CCD sensor of only one generation later, the images were clean and had a commercial look, and I was never able to come close the "that look". (i know the lenses are different and the sensor etc etc, and my expectation was not to get to 100% the same). A later acquired H2D-22 with fat pixels etc came a bit closer, but was still a mile off. So while enjoying the H sytem for 3 years, 100 studio shoots, and 80K shots, the latent dissatisfaction never made me really committed to it. The COVID hiatus gave me some time to reflect and I decided to prioritize reliability, convenience and cost, and let go of my legacy gear.

    I am now putting the X-T30 through it's paces to see where it can take me, and I am positively surprised. The look I loved is not achievable with this system for sure, but I will develop a new look that hopefully sticks.

    In closing, I want to thank the mods of the board and the participants for their advice and support over the years

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    Re: Going back to Full Frame DSLR

    Quote Originally Posted by darr View Post
    Who cares what gear you use as long as it does not get in the way.

    I shoot APS-C, medium format digital and film, and 4x5. My favorite camera is whatever I am using at the moment.

    If someone thinks a medium format digital camera will miraculously change their photography for the better, then they are drinking merchandising kool-aid. What it will do is make you slow down as it dictates a more methodical way to shoot than say an APS-C.

    There are subject matter that is not conducive to a methodical way of shooting. I enjoy still life more than action so I continue to shoot 4x5 in a studio environment. Whatever speaks to you and brings you joy, that is where you should go.

    Enjoy your Nikon!
    Hello Darr

    Thank you for your point of view and post .
    What I like most , when shooting MF and 6x9/4x5 is the slow down process . You can much more "compose" your image and perhaps you decide to wait for a better light situation or even to return on an other day . On the other hand , I love to "play" with my precision gear . It gives me a nice time and feeling .
    Regards . Jürgen .
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  30. #30
    Senior Member ndwgolf's Avatar
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    Re: Going back to Full Frame DSLR

    Quote Originally Posted by jotloob View Post
    Hello Darr

    . On the other hand , I love to "play" with my precision gear . It gives me a nice time and feeling .
    I must admit I get that same warm fuzzy feeling whenever I use my Nikon gear
    Thanks

    Neil
    My all NEW Website can be seen HERE
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    Re: Going back to Full Frame DSLR

    Reading the original and subsequent posts, here are the key takeaways for me personally.

    1. There are no bad cameras, just bad purchase decisions.
    2. The amount of money you have is in no way related to your ability to understand what you need and buy accordingly.
    3. High end or expensive cameras do not correlate with better images unless they fit specifically within your requirements.
    4. Your most valuable asset is your ability to critically analyse what it is you are missing from your current system and research and identify a more suitable system. If you buy what is right for you, then how can you be wrong?

    Every single genre of photography has a different set of parameters for what makes a good camera, every individual also has their own, the reason there are so many choices are because there are so many requirements. An Instagram influence carrying an IQ4150 and a tech cam makes as much sense as a corporate photographer delivering 10m wide landscapes for offices and boardrooms carrying an iphone. Making the wrong choice then realising it and going back to something that fits with your style, location, budget and wants, is in no way a step backwards equipment wise, if it allows you to work more efficiently and get more enjoyment, as these are the things that are much more likely to allow you to take better pictures .

    The other things I have taken from this are, it's great if you find what works for you, but anyone who writes that they can see no reason why anyone would need or want x or y, is a fool, you not understanding it is of no consequence to those who do, let them get on with it.

    Just my opinions obviously.

    Mat
    http://matrichardson.com/
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  32. #32
    Senior Member ndwgolf's Avatar
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    Re: Going back to Full Frame DSLR

    Quote Originally Posted by mjr View Post
    Reading the original and subsequent posts, here are the key takeaways for me personally.

    1. There are no bad cameras, just bad purchase decisions.
    2. The amount of money you have is in no way related to your ability to understand what you need and buy accordingly.
    3. High end or expensive cameras do not correlate with better images unless they fit specifically within your requirements.
    4. Your most valuable asset is your ability to critically analyse what it is you are missing from your current system and research and identify a more suitable system. If you buy what is right for you, then how can you be wrong?

    Every single genre of photography has a different set of parameters for what makes a good camera, every individual also has their own, the reason there are so many choices are because there are so many requirements. An Instagram influence carrying an IQ4150 and a tech cam makes as much sense as a corporate photographer delivering 10m wide landscapes for offices and boardrooms carrying an iphone. Making the wrong choice then realising it and going back to something that fits with your style, location, budget and wants, is in no way a step backwards equipment wise, if it allows you to work more efficiently and get more enjoyment, as these are the things that are much more likely to allow you to take better pictures .

    The other things I have taken from this are, it's great if you find what works for you, but anyone who writes that they can see no reason why anyone would need or want x or y, is a fool, you not understanding it is of no consequence to those who do, let them get on with it.

    Just my opinions obviously.

    Mat
    .Matt
    I just put that in Google translate.......it can't, neither can I......... sorry but I'm just an old roughneck that likes taking pictures.
    Neil
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  33. #33
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    Re: Going back to Full Frame DSLR

    Neil,

    I have a simple experiment for you to play around with and it doesn't cost a thing: shoot your D850 in 4:5 aspect ratio mode for a day or three and see if you don't get a little of the MF mojo feeling out the "small" camera I know it sounds a small thing, but it has altered the way I make images with my FF cam...
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."
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  34. #34
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    Re: Going back to Full Frame DSLR

    Quote Originally Posted by ndwgolf View Post
    Okay let me try and explain. I worked in the Oil & Gas industry (offshore oil Rigs) for 40 years. Its a tuff life in every sense. Out of that 40 years I have spent 20 years away from my family and friends working in extremely difficult environments and working hard 12 hours a day everyday,in return I have been paid really well............... Okay enough of that bit.

    So my thinking was this, if I am going to risk my life every time I get onto a helicopter to go and work in the North Sea then I am sure as hell going to enjoy myself when I get home, and enjoy myself I did.

    Back in 2009 I had some immigration issues in Thailand so me and my Thai wife went and stayed in Kuala Lumpur Malaysia. Before I came off the rig I called my wife and asked here to bring my Nikon D something camera from the bottom drawer in our bedroom as I fancied trying my hand again at photography. When I got home, after taking care of business I had a look at my old camera sitting on the kitchen table and noticed that all the rubber parts had perished, I made a few phone calls and asked around and was told that they have a big Nikon service center in KL. So later that day me and my wife went into town to visit the Nikon service Center. I asked the staff if they had any cleaner that I could use on my camera as it was sticky to which they replied for about 50 quid they could replace all the rubber parts. So I dropped off the camera and was told to come back in 2 hours time. On returning I couldn't believe it was the same camera......it looked so so new. While waiting to pay the bill I noticed a poster on the wall saying that they were holding a two day training class for the new Nikon D7000. I asked the lady if i could join the class and she said sure you can. She started to take my details when one of the other staff members came over and asked me if I had a D7000, I showed her my D something camera and said this is my only camera, she then told me that the class was for customers with the D7000 and that I would not be able to do, so me being me, I had to argue the fact that all I wanted to do was learn the basics so that I could stop shooting with the GREEN AUTO button. She again said no so we went back and forward yes/no yes/no to eventually she just walked away and didn't want to listen to my BS any more.

    I paid for the repairs to my camera and walked across the shopping mall to another camera store and bought a new Nikon D7000. I walked back to the Nikon Center and asked the same lady to sign me up for the nikon class (She is giving me the look of WTF doesn't this guy understand to which I pulled out the new D7000 and we proceeded with the registration for the class.

    I took the class and it was at that point I was hooked on Photography. I signed up for many camera workshops not only to learn photography but to find other photographers to go and shoot with. Over the next couple of months I had joined a group of photographers and went away on my first photo trip to Cebu in the Philippines. While on that trip I met a professional photographer called Yusuf Hashim who kind of took me under his wing and would tell me to do this and that and what for. Yusuf shoots with a Canon but because I had already bought the trinity of Nikon lenses being the 14/24 24/70/70/200 he advised me to stick with Nikon but to maybe upgrade to a full frame body. As soon as we arrived back in KL I went to the Nikon center and bought a D3S (Man I liked the look of that camera). I was on a roll and me and my beautiful wife would go out taking pictures everyday, one of the guys I met invited me to go and take bird pictures so I rocked up with my 70/200 on the D3S to see him with a cheap 24/800 or something crazy like that and dressed in full battle fatigues. As you can imaging the birding experience was a disaster. Later when I got home I called Yusuf and asked him about it. He started telling me about this new 300mm f2.8 lens that Canon had given him to go and shoot the bull races in Pacu Jawi Indonesia. He asked me if I wanted to join the trip which was in 6 weeks time (perfect timing, go back to the rig make some money and yes buy myself the 300mm f2.8 lens so that I could look like Yusuf That is my picture below

    Click image for larger version. 

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    While on this trip there were a couple of knobs who had Leica rangefinders with them and they were in the back of the bus talking Leica this and Leica that, to which Yusuf would say I cant wait to see your bull racing pictures taken with your bling bling shiny Leica cameras and laughing away.............I couldn't help but notice these little shinny cameras looked quite Neil like so I made some more enquiries and the following trip I bought myself my first of many Leica M cameras and lenses. By this time I was hooked on the Leica brand and to Yusuf disgust he would alway rib me about how most of my pictures were either out of focus or the composition was off or anything. Another very good photographer called Hamni was a Nikon guy, he had a D3s the same as me and we would go out shooting street photography in China Town in KL. He would have his D3s and 70/200 and I would be fumbling around with my M9 and Noctilux 0.95 missing shots and getting frustrated every time Hamni came up to me with a WOW picture on the back of his LCD.

    By this time I was friendly with the owner of the Leica store in KL and vented my frustrations of why Yusuf and Hamni could always get better pictures with there Nikon/Canon gear that what I could with my Leica gear, to which he replied it probably had something to do with the speed of the AF verse the fiddly rangefinder.............2 days later I had a new Leica S006 and 3 new S lenses.

    The following trip me and my wife went back to Scotland for a family vacation and I took my new shinny Leica S gear with me, on day 2 of the trip the S70mm auto focus **** itself followed 3 days later by the S30mm lens. I was gutted and yes very pissed off. When I arrived back in KL I dropped the two lenses off at Leica and was told I would get them back in a few weeks...........2 1/2 months later I got them back.

    The following trip me and my wife went to switzerland and this time the camera lasted 4 or 5 days before the S120 mm lens **** itself not only that but I was spending more time pulling the battery than taking pictures.

    Speaking of photographing my wife at first she was cool with me taking beautiful portrait style pictures, now when I point a camera at her she scours at me and hands me her iphone to take her picture.

    So where is all this leading to. Both my mates Yusuf and Hamni still shoot with there Canon and Nikon cameras and take amazing pictures of everything. Wildlife, pretty girls landscape street photography everything. Whereas I have spent 100s of thousands of dollars chasing a dream picture that I keep getting with my Nikon gear and every now and then with my H6D100c or my S007 or my M10 Q2 and more.

    Since being diagnosed with PTSD back in 2017 I no longer enjoy street photography and limit my photography to wildlife, birds and nature so the trusty Nikon gear is my camera of choice. Yesterday I sold my D810 and bought a new D850 (I guess I haven't lost the urge to spend spend spend) but at least its in the 3k range rather than the 30k range

    I have sold all the Leica M gear the H6D gear and Im left with my Nikon D850 a few lenses and my film gear (maybe one day I will venture out and try my hand at that side of photography) The Leica S gear is still with me but due to the fact that it all cost me ~$40k and is now only worth 4k I will keep it and give it to one of my kids if they show any interest in Photography.

    While on lockdown I decided to make a new website just for the hell of it and to pass time stuck in the house https://neilwilliamsfineart.com/ There is a mixture of FF MF LF and 120 film, but for me my favorite pictures are shot with a Nikon FF camera.

    Sorry for the long post but hopefully this will answer some of your questions

    Neil
    At first, skimming through your posting, I thought you being sarcastic!

    Only when you did not state having finally found Nirvana in PhaseOne, I realized you meant what you said.

    But whatever, great B&W image. Well done.
    Last edited by TheDude; 5th May 2020 at 07:28.

  35. #35
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    Re: Going back to Full Frame DSLR

    Quote Originally Posted by Abstraction View Post
    It seems to me that MF digital made sense some years ago ... Even though the backs and their integration were clunky, expensive and perhaps not as reliable, people who needed the benefits of what higher resolution has to offer (not just in print size) had to bite the bullet and get into the MF .... Once FF cameras hit the 40-50mp mark, MF digital stopped making sense ... As I see it, only two MF systems make any sense today ... Fuji GFX100 and Phase 4150.
    Basically agree with your observation.

    There is still a huge price difference between 44x33mm sensor and 645-sized sensor (54x40mm) but as far I can tell there is now no price difference between 44x33mm sensor cameras (that use an older sensor) and top-of-the-line 35mm cameras.

    I think, Fujifilm has seen a very clever way to break into the Nikon/Cannon/Sony market by offering an "upgrade" to MF, and at the same time also have a go at Hasselblad and PhaseOne.
    Last edited by TheDude; 5th May 2020 at 10:53.
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    Re: Going back to Full Frame DSLR

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    Stan

    Have you tried strobes both with a MF camera and with a dedicated TTL camera ? Of course pros have been using strobes with every type of camera since the days we evaluated exposure with a HB and a Polaroid back . Strobes used in manual require either a fixed setting (e.g. studio ) or really strong craft skills. If can control the environment and have time to dial in the balance ,exposure etc ...using strobes manually works well . The advances from vendors such as Profoto have been in creating MOBILE systems (e.g. A1 ) and integrating the TTL functions into the camera . This can be a game changer for event and wedding photographers dealing with changing light situations . Also pretty darn nice for fashion and editorial assignments .

    So it always depends on “what you plan to shoot “ and the “craft skills” you are willing to master .

    Roger
    Don't have PhaseOnes but my lowly Fuji GFX can easily do TTL with Elinchrom, Godox, Profoto. Wouldn't bigger issue with PhaseOne would be slower AF more than not having TTL? I have both GFX and Sony A7rIV and still prefer GFX. Not doing any birds, sports anymore.

  37. #37
    Senior Member ErikKaffehr's Avatar
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    Re: Going back to Full Frame DSLR

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    I did it about 8 years back right after the D800e was released. My take at the time was that net IQ was "close enough" to being on par with my IQ180/tech cam and newest digital MF glass that the net differences didn't matter very much. Even for big prints, which I was doing fewer of... MF color was better, but that margin narrowed significantly with the D810. It's only gotten better with the 45MP sensors. But to be 100% objective, the real impetus behind my decision back then was I was simply getting priced out of the MF market; I didn't have the financial ability to keep upgrading so got off that train...

    That said, I still miss the 'gestalt' unique to using a tech cam to create.

    Full course, I've recently sold off all of my DSLR bodies and most of my DSLR glass, and gone mirrorless with the Z7 and mostly dedicated Z lenses, though the line is a little thin right now -- but you can adapt darn near any lens from any manufacturer to it.

    So, do I miss MF? Yes, I still do on occasion. But I do not miss what was for me an out of hand expenditure for owning the gear, especially when compared to modern FF solutions...
    Well, I would say that MFD is quite affordable now, it is just that the name plate says Fujifilm and not Phase One.
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    But, I am not longing for a GFX, the stuff I have is appropriate for my needs.

    Best regards
    Erik

  38. #38
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    Re: Going back to Full Frame DSLR

    Quote Originally Posted by ErikKaffehr View Post
    Well, I would say that MFD is quite affordable now, it is just that the name plate says Fujifilm and not Phase One.
    I think most of the medium format "purists" (and I use that term as a compliment) are referring to full-frame medium format (a la Phase One and Hasselbald H), not crop-sensor medium format (Fuji GFX, Hasselbald X, etc.), hence some of the direct and indirect references. 44x33mm-sensor medium format sits at the kids table.

    Joe
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  39. #39
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    Re: Going back to Full Frame DSLR

    I enjoy shooting and owning many formats (and brands) of digital and film cameras (I am still aspiring to own a 8x10 format film camera some day).

    For me, it's all good. I thought it would be obvious, especially here on GetDPI...there is not any single best choice in formats or camera systems/brands for everyone for all situations and uses. Honestly, I can't believe we are still having these conversations.

    I'm sure you will choose the formats, cameras etc that work best for you Neil. Everyone else here will make their own choices, for their own reasons.

    Gary
    Last edited by bensonga; 5th May 2020 at 17:23.

  40. #40
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    Re: Going back to Full Frame DSLR

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    Neil,

    I have a simple experiment for you to play around with and it doesn't cost a thing: shoot your D850 in 4:5 aspect ratio mode for a day or three and see if you don't get a little of the MF mojo feeling out the "small" camera I know it sounds a small thing, but it has altered the way I make images with my FF cam...
    Always copied but never duplicated.

    A little bit of Dante will always live in your heart, Jack.

    Well, maybe at least until someone makes a FF DSLR with a 4:3 format sensor.

  41. #41
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    Re: Going back to Full Frame DSLR

    On the internet I can't see any difference between any of the formats form any of the camera manufacturers - so if one shoots to show on the internet I can beleive any argument from anyone about any camera.
    On large oprints I can see the difference between formats - especially depending on subject matter - my definition of large is measured in meters.
    In PP I can see and experience the difference between megapixels and formats - I couldnt care less about a lot of things that people seem to value ( like high ISO peformance) or dynamic range - I do care about colour and being able to alter luminosity to suit - there are large differences to observe between the various formats as far as maleability of raw fiels go.
    In useage I can feel the difference between manufacturers when using a camera - it is difficult for me to use certain cameras whose performance I like - because they just dont suit my large hands and or their viewfinder experience is not what I can put up with - I shoot 100% mirrorless these days.

    I don't think my experiences differ much from any random experienced photographer.

    I do have a bias for Leica gear - that is an admission I'm happy to make -but I also like my Fuji GFX100 a lot - prepared to put up with its weight in body and lenses - for the IQ when it comes to large prints.

  42. #42
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    Re: Going back to Full Frame DSLR

    Quote Originally Posted by mjr View Post
    Reading the original and subsequent posts, here are the key takeaways for me personally.

    1. There are no bad cameras, just bad purchase decisions.
    2. The amount of money you have is in no way related to your ability to understand what you need and buy accordingly.
    3. High end or expensive cameras do not correlate with better images unless they fit specifically within your requirements.
    4. Your most valuable asset is your ability to critically analyse what it is you are missing from your current system and research and identify a more suitable system. If you buy what is right for you, then how can you be wrong?

    Every single genre of photography has a different set of parameters for what makes a good camera, every individual also has their own, the reason there are so many choices are because there are so many requirements. An Instagram influence carrying an IQ4150 and a tech cam makes as much sense as a corporate photographer delivering 10m wide landscapes for offices and boardrooms carrying an iphone. Making the wrong choice then realising it and going back to something that fits with your style, location, budget and wants, is in no way a step backwards equipment wise, if it allows you to work more efficiently and get more enjoyment, as these are the things that are much more likely to allow you to take better pictures .

    The other things I have taken from this are, it's great if you find what works for you, but anyone who writes that they can see no reason why anyone would need or want x or y, is a fool, you not understanding it is of no consequence to those who do, let them get on with it.

    Just my opinions obviously.

    Mat
    I would say that there are bad cameras.

    1. Cameras that fail on the job.
    2. Cameras that cannot deliver on their promise.


    In the first category I would put cameras or lenses that fail during shooting. Of course a photographer always needs to carry some backup. But cameras that won't let the photographers down are far to preferable to those that do.

    The other point is that it is quite possible that a camera cannot deliver on it's promise. Some examples:

    • The first model of the Sony A7r had a lot of shutter induced vibration and there was little in way of mitigating it. The problem was eliminated on later models by adding electronic first shutter curtain.
    • It may be that some systems could not achieve correct AF. It could be argued that any systems requiring 'focus recompose' introduced a systematic error. Hasselblad had 'true focus' to compensate for that.
    • DSLRs needed to have their focusing systems calibrated, with mirrorless that is no longer the case, as mirrorless uses the sensor itself for AF.


    Unfortunately, it is not possible to give a concrete example without pointing a finger, but this image may give some indications:


    From this article by Jim Kasson: https://blog.kasson.com/a7riii/bette...presentations/

    This shows a systematic error with the D850 - It doesn't take focus shift with aperture into account. The D5 seems to suffer less. This is not intended to point a finger to Nikon, it is just that Jim Kasson is a Nikon user.

    I would think that correctly adjusted MFD gear, shot at near optimal apertures and using best focusing and shooting practices can achieve magnificent results. Also quite true, images can be magnificent without achieving the ultimate sharpness. But, I would still assume that image quality is one of the reasons spending on MFD.

    I would think that the new mirrorless systems like GFX and X1D may be pretty ideal, in the sense that they offer accurate auto focus across a large part of the sensor area. Also the lenses are calculated for the sensor size.

    Magnified live view, best combined with peaking at shooting aperture eliminates most of the inaccuracy of manual focusing. I would guess having that option on digital backs is also a god bless, especially with technical cameras.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Michael Reichmann's Hasselblad zoom breaking up into two parts in Namibia...

    Best regards
    Erik
    Last edited by ErikKaffehr; 5th May 2020 at 22:30.

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    Re: Going back to Full Frame DSLR

    This is a terrific thread. Thanks all for your perspectives.

    I’ve been making photographs since I was 10 years old. That was just over 60 years ago, now. Wow. I think I may be typical of a sub-set of photographers my age. High school year book, newspaper, had my own little darkroom. In the military in sunny southeast Asia I served as recon photographer, taught photography at the post craft shop when home. Then, in my career in the fire service I made photos for the departments I worked for, events, training, etc., and freelanced on the side. I’ve owned or used pretty much every type of camera available over the years. 120 box cameras, 2 1/4 TLRs, 4x5, 35mm “bricks,” Texas Leicas, real Leicas (my M4 is probably my favorite of all time), SLR, modular MF film cameras, early digital point-n-shoot, dSLR, 4:3 mirrorless, FF dSLR, mirrorless APS-C ...

    From the early 70’s I had the privilege of visiting Carmel, CA at least once a year (sometimes more) and “worshiping at the shrines” at the Weston Gallery and Photography West Gallery. I’ve spent more hours than I can count staring at original prints made by the masters, Weston(s), Karsh, Adams, Caponegro, Smith, Haas, Penn . . . and many others. I longed to be able to, one day, stand in front of on of my own prints and feel that way. And I’m talking about a certain “something” in terms of print IQ that left nothing to be desired. I don’t think I can describe it beyond that. It wasn’t about any one thing like resolution/detail.

    I got close - sometimes.

    “For me” - all the cameras I’d ever used were wonderful, but . . . there was always a “but” somewhere.

    I’m not wealthy, so in the digital world any of the high end MF cameras were well out of my reach. And when photographing with friends who owed them, the degree of futzing around seemed like “not a lot of fun” and limiting in terms of overall versatility. Many of those guys had multiple systems (also well beyond my reach) for versatility’s sake.

    Enter the GFX 100 announcement by Fujifilm. IBIS in MF? Are you kidding me? dSLR form factor in MF? Are you kidding me? 102 MEGAPIXELS, are you kidding me? And just barely within my reach, if I sold my firstborn? Are you kidding me?

    I bought one. “For me”.... nirvana. For me, versatility combined with stunning image quality. For me, the ability to print pretty much as large as I may want.

    For me . . . Standing in front of a 24x32” print of this photograph, that I made myself, and thinking, “This is what I’ve wanted to be able to do my whole photographic life...” is amazingly satisfying and something I thought would never happen:



    Go back to something else? Not likely . . .

    Rand
    Last edited by Rand47; 6th May 2020 at 04:38.
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    Smile Re: Going back to Full Frame DSLR

    A lot of very sensible responses to a good question that has provoked me to examine my motives for using MF.
    Of course, most of us amateurs don’t have to justify our decisions to anyone except ourselves (unless SWMBO finds out how much we’ve spent) but it’s always better to feel that we have thought through the reasons why we are where we are.

    Quality and format of the final output is high on my list and the fact that, for me, this always ends up as a relatively large print means that 6x4.5 MF is an easier route to achieve my objectives. The greater malleability in post, to get it looking the way I want it to, helps as well.
    Crop MF (via an X1D) has a similar justification for me - plus easier portability for longer hikes.

    But there is something else that I’m not sure has been defined in this thread yet (apologies if I missed it) and that’s the pleasure to be gained in the process of photography, rather than just the final result.
    It starts with a reason/motivation to get out into interesting, beautiful and wild places at unsociable times of day and goes through all the stages of finding and capturing - including the satisfaction derived from using high quality tools. The motivation bit can be stimulated by any camera of course and the tool satisfaction angle will be very varied and personal.

    But that’s where a Technical camera (Alpa in my case) does it for me and my Nikon D850 doesn’t. The whole experience of complete manual control and operating a precision instrument (and ultimately getting a good print) is highly satisfying and the reason I use what I do. I’m sure that LF could be even better in some of these respects but we all settle at the level we are comfortable with - and can carry in our rucksack.

    Car analogies are very dangerous but, given the choice of touring Scotland in a 1956 Bristol 405 DHC or a modernmobile with infotainment etc., I know what I would choose.
    If I needed to go to Inverness on business, my choice would be different.

    It’s important to know your destination but there can be much pleasure derived from the process of getting there. And, in photography particularly, you often don’t get there at all. But it doesn’t matter.
    So good question Neil but only you can answer it - and there’s nothing wrong with grumpy

    Paul
    Last edited by 4*Paul; 6th May 2020 at 15:47. Reason: Spelling!
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    Re: Going back to Full Frame DSLR

    Quote Originally Posted by Rand47 View Post
    GFX 100 ... Fujifilm IBIS in MF? ... dSLR form factor in MF? .... 102 MEGAPIXELS, ... And ... within my reach ... bought one. “For me”.... nirvana.
    You forgot to mention that it has a back-illuminated sensor which would be very advantageous should there be any future shift/tilt lenses.

    Now if someone could be first in figuring out how to successfully mount an adapter plate directly to the GFX 100 to allow short focal length lens use on a technical camera!

    The GFX100 will be remembered as an inflection point.

    (BTW, great B&W image, well done.)
    Last edited by TheDude; 6th May 2020 at 05:54.
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    Re: Going back to Full Frame DSLR

    I find myself using FF 35mm (Z6) more and more lately for family purposes, so I can see my own priorities shifting from MFD to Nikon/Canon/Sony in the next few years.

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    Re: Going back to Full Frame DSLR

    I will add for thread posterity that if I were to get back into MF digital, it would absolutely be the Fuji mirrorless 100 -- even though according to Ken it's only "kid's table" MF End of day, using the Nikon Z7 mirrorless for the past few months has absolutely sold me on mirrorless technology, and so for me a mirrorless entry point back into MF would be a given. Respect others opinions will vary.

    To be really clear though, MF mirrorless is not on my radar at all now or even anytime soon, as the Nikon kit is completely satisfying all my needs. But if (when?) a great deal on a used Fuji 100 system cropped up, that could all change very quickly -- I do have some dry powder in camera mad-money fund
    Jack
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    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Re: Going back to Full Frame DSLR

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Colson View Post
    I think most of the medium format "purists" (and I use that term as a compliment) are referring to full-frame medium format (a la Phase One and Hasselbald H), not crop-sensor medium format (Fuji GFX, Hasselbald X, etc.), hence some of the direct and indirect references. 44x33mm-sensor medium format sits at the kids table.

    Joe
    LOL!
    There is no such thing as "full frame medium format" at all until there are 6x4.5, 6x6, 6x7, and 6x9 centimeter sized sensors available. And then the purest of the pure will demand 6x17 cm...

    I'm happy at the "kid's table" with my Hasselbalds, thank you.

    G
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    Re: Going back to Full Frame DSLR

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    LOL!
    There is no such thing as "full frame medium format" at all until there are 6x4.5, 6x6, 6x7, and 6x9 centimeter sized sensors available. And then the purest of the pure will demand 6x17 cm...

    I'm happy at the "kid's table" with my Hasselbalds, thank you.

    G
    +1 A well known, and unnamed, friend of mine w/ a Phase One, now hates me. I print for both of us. He’s seen prints from both GFX 100 and his Phase, side by side. Sometimes even the same subject. As I said, he hates me.

    Rand

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    Re: Going back to Full Frame DSLR

    Quote Originally Posted by Rand47 View Post
    A well known, and unnamed, friend of mine w/ a Phase One, now hates me. I print for both of us. He’s seen prints from both GFX 100 and his Phase, side by side.
    Of the P1 backs, only the P1 IQ4 has a higher resolution (%50 more) than the GFX 100.

    Both P1 IQ4 and GFX 100 use the same sensor generation (both back-illuminated).

    IMO, all the older P1 backs are either matched or outclassed by the GFX 100.
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