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P1 substantially increasing prices

Paul Spinnler

Well-known member
Dealer informed me that in a bit say “unconventional” crisis measure P1 decided to increase prices substantially across lenses in Europe, understand XT even is getting a bump.

Wow. Hope the hardware unit survives long term, they seem to be unhappy with the margins atm. Business wise this is super tricky as it banks on the thesis that elasticity of demand for die hard P1 clients is low enough to not cause a sales dip, meaning they are not so much into expanding market share, but merely trying to survive.

Look at the Rodie 50 pricing 10k Eur net. Alpa is somewhere at 6k and I think arca swiss was even lower, no? Granted, not the same due to shutter, but still. 10k Eur is more than a fuji 100. For just one lens.

Looks a bit desperate tbh because this is precisely the time where I d reach out to clients with bundles, offers, etc. Cost management probably a lot tighter these days after private equity carved out the software piece. And also the Danish employees are probably not super easy to cut and cost a lot in terms of social security.

Not sure then whether slapping another grand on blue ring lenses will be helpful.

Also Alpa looks like it is struggling. Website barely updates, no XT shutters cripples optics sales and Instagram feed just reposts old pics over and over again,

Quo vadis medium format?!
 
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Smoothjazz

Active member
In these times, you would hope they would be reducing prices to boost sales.
They are very expensive as it is- I would think they could sell more units by lowering the price point a bit.
For example, the 138mm Rodenstock is very attractive, but I really hesitate at anything over 10K price range.
 

Paul Spinnler

Well-known member
I have no detailed insights, but in these times some smaller pro focused dealers will be struggling as well as normal "passionate" rich amateurs - their new marketing target group. Am not sure 10k EUR for a Rodenstock 50 4.0 is going to drive massive sales. You can also see it in this forum - I feel that medium format commenting activity has gone down vs. the good old days a few years ago.

But who am I to know - maybe they are doing better than ever!
 

Mexecutioner

Well-known member
Dealer informed me that in a bit say “unconventional” crisis measure P1 decided to increase prices substantially across lenses in Europe, understand XT even is getting a bump.

Wow. Hope the hardware unit survives long term, they seem to be unhappy with the margins atm. Business wise this is super tricky as it banks on the thesis that elasticity of demand for die hard P1 clients is low enough to not cause a sales dip, meaning they are not so much into expanding market share, but merely trying to survive.

Look at the Rodie 50 pricing 10k Eur net. Alpa is somewhere at 6k and I think arca swiss was even lower, no? Granted, not the same due to shutter, but still. 10k Eur is more than a fuji 100. For just one lens.

Looks a bit desperate tbh because this is precisely the time where I d reach out to clients with bundles, offers, etc. Cost management probably a lot tighter these days after private equity carved out the software piece. And also the Danish employees are probably not super easy to cut and cost a lot in terms of social security.

Not sure then whether slapping another grand on blue ring lenses will be helpful.

Also Alpa looks like it is struggling. Website barely updates, no XT shutters cripples optics sales and Instagram feed just reposts old pics over and over again,

Quo vadis medium format?!
I get the price of the XT shutter adds up and I'd pay the premium, but why is the 50 the same price as the 32 when the 50 should be about US$3000 less? That makes no sense to me.
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
Dealer informed me that in a bit say “unconventional” crisis measure P1 decided to increase prices substantially across lenses in Europe, understand XT even is getting a bump.
I only keep track of pricing in the USA, so could not speak to Europe.

Here in US the pricing of some P1 products are going up and the pricing of some P1 products are going down. I'll see if I can tag Lance to provide more detail; we'll also have our website updated soon. In the meantime if you were considering any P1 purchases you should contact your dealer ASAP to see which direction applies to the equipment you were interested in, as they may be able to honor previous pricing if you were already in the midst of purchasing. If you don't have a dealer, we (DT) would be honored to be given the chance to earn that business.
 

Paul Spinnler

Well-known member
I get the price of the XT shutter adds up and I'd pay the premium, but why is the 50 the same price as the 32 when the 50 should be about US$3000 less? That makes no sense to me.
Because they want to increase margins and dont earn enough with the lenses as they pay Rodie for the lebs and Cambo for the mounting. It is a management decision with open end to see where they land. I think enormous pressure at the moment.
 

Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
Some pricing goes up, some goes down.

Blue Ring lenses are up.

XT body is up.


XT Lenses are unchanged.
XF body is unchanged (although the bundle discount is gone from the normal price list)


IQ4/XF systems are down.

IQ4 Digital Backs are down.

IQ3 100/IQ3 100 Trichromatic are down.

CPO (Certified Pre-Owned) Digital Backs are down.

Upgrade pricing for Digital Back Upgrades is down.


In light of this, I feel the title of this thread is misleading or at least inaccurate or incomplete. I'm not saying Phase One camera systems are not expensive, I am saying that a title like - Phase One raises some prices, lowers others perhaps doesn't get as much attention, but it would be more accurate.


Steve Hendrix/CI
 

Paul Spinnler

Well-known member
Some pricing goes up, some goes down.

Blue Ring lenses are up.

XT body is up.


XT Lenses are unchanged.
XF body is unchanged (although the bundle discount is gone from the normal price list)


IQ4/XF systems are down.

IQ4 Digital Backs are down.

IQ3 100/IQ3 100 Trichromatic are down.

CPO (Certified Pre-Owned) Digital Backs are down.

Upgrade pricing for Digital Back Upgrades is down.


In light of this, I feel the title of this thread is misleading or at least inaccurate or incomplete. I'm not saying Phase One camera systems are not expensive, I am saying that a title like - Phase One raises some prices, lowers others perhaps doesn't get as much attention, but it would be more accurate.


Steve Hendrix/CI
Well it is to increase P1's profit margins overall. How much in absolute terms do IQ4 backs change? Well XT lenses have changed in price in the sense that the newest member of the family has a base price point at the level of the 32 although it costs P1 less to buy from Rodenstock than the 50. The list price difference in Alpa land between 32 and 50 is somewhere around 3k! Some XF lenses change almost a grand I hear.

The backs is where they make money and most margin, so clearly more wiggle room here in times of crisis.
 

Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
Well it is to increase P1's profit margins overall. How much in absolute terms do IQ4 backs change? Well XT lenses have changed in price in the sense that the newest member of the family has a base price point at the level of the 32 although it costs P1 less to buy from Rodenstock than the 50. The list price difference in Alpa land between 32 and 50 is somewhere around 3k! Some XF lenses change almost a grand I hear.

The backs is where they make money and most margin, so clearly more wiggle room here in times of crisis.

I hear what you're saying, but there has been no change in price on XT lenses.

The 50 HR-W in X Shutter is a brand new lens in their XT lineup.

I do agree that there is a disparity in the pricing of these lenses - the 32 HR-W is normally far mmore expensive than the 50 HR-W - and yet the 50 HR-W is at the same price, once mounted in X Shutter. I can't explain this. Perhaps they're averaging? I don't know. Because the 32HR is very reasonably priced relative to other iterations of that lens (Aperture Mount). In the US market, the 32 HR-W in Alpa SB17 Aperture Mount is around $11,000. And a 32HR-W in X Shutter is $11,990. I think getting an X Shutter for $900 is a pretty good deal. So maybe they are averaging, I don't know (nor do I know why). They are clinging to one standard price point for all lenses other than the 70 HR-W.


Steve Hendrix/CI
 

docholliday

Well-known member
Well it is to increase P1's profit margins overall. How much in absolute terms do IQ4 backs change? Well XT lenses have changed in price in the sense that the newest member of the family has a base price point at the level of the 32 although it costs P1 less to buy from Rodenstock than the 50. The list price difference in Alpa land between 32 and 50 is somewhere around 3k! Some XF lenses change almost a grand I hear.

The backs is where they make money and most margin, so clearly more wiggle room here in times of crisis.
I'd venture a guess to say the reason some items are going up is the availability of parts. In the last few months, many components I use daily have drastically changed. I've had caps that I used to pay $0.40 now cost $2.00 and some semis that went the other way too from ~$42 to $30. Even worse, there's been backorders at all the parts houses of many very, very common components with lead times of 90+ days.

To compound that problem, shipping has been very unreliable. I had some stuff that normally ships ground take 2 days instead of 3/4 while others that are usually overnight or two-day take a week to get here. And I'm in the middle of the US, not at some far reaching location like Alaska.
 

lance_schad

Workshop Member
I agree the title of this thread is misleading.

The new pricing and offers will be public after June 1.

Lens price increases are not something new to the photo community, other manufacturers in the recent years have had them (some a few times), where as P1's pricing has remained the same on lenses for many years.

Other changes that I feel are positive are the increased trade in values (lower upgrade pricing for mostly all other models of P1 backs excluding IQ3-100/Trichromatic which remains the same) to bring users up to the latest IQ4 technology which will allow the use XT (and benefit from numerous other features and updates to come) as well as compatibility with the soon to be released stand alone X-Shutter on other tech camera systems . I do not see any other manufactures offering upgrade paths the way that Phase One still does or developing the technology that they do.

Also lower cost of entry for those that would like to shoot with a CPO IQ3-100/Trichromatic and other CPO models is a positive for those that have wanted to get into the Phase One family.

As far as XT body increasing in price, I (and probably most of the owners of them) feel that even at the new price its well worth it. It is a great cutting edge platform that is performing as promised and beyond.

I am just speculating here, but perhaps P1 had initially priced the XT too low or since it is manufactured by Cambo the cost of manufacturing may have increased. The same possibly may be the same with the Rodenstock lens pricing, perhaps in the near future you will see adjustments from other companies that integrate their lenses into their systems? Also from past experience in dealing with Rodenstock their pricing for different markets can be all across the board due to distribution,etc....

It was mentioned earlier in the thread that they have not seen much activity from companies such as ALPA which most likely means in my opinion that the XT is making an impact in the tech camera market.

As Doug mentioned if you are interested please contact myself or your reseller of your choice to learn more about your options if you are interested in shooting with a Phase One System.

BTW please take it easy on Steve, myself and any of the other resellers as we are not the manufacturer (Phase One) but are just the messengers who have to work with what they put in place. I believe I can speak for all of us that our main interest is you the photographer and will do whatever we can to support and provide you the best experience, so please don't shoot the messenger ;).

Lance
 

Paul Spinnler

Well-known member
I hear what you're saying, but there has been no change in price on XT lenses.

The 50 HR-W in X Shutter is a brand new lens in their XT lineup.

I do agree that there is a disparity in the pricing of these lenses - the 32 HR-W is normally far mmore expensive than the 50 HR-W - and yet the 50 HR-W is at the same price, once mounted in X Shutter. I can't explain this. Perhaps they're averaging? I don't know. Because the 32HR is very reasonably priced relative to other iterations of that lens (Aperture Mount). In the US market, the 32 HR-W in Alpa SB17 Aperture Mount is around $11,000. And a 32HR-W in X Shutter is $11,990. I think getting an X Shutter for $900 is a pretty good deal. So maybe they are averaging, I don't know (nor do I know why). They are clinging to one standard price point for all lenses other than the 70 HR-W.


Steve Hendrix/CI
It is all about selling the backs at P1.The more P1s you sell, the more follow-on sales in lenses, especially. And the higher the profits. Simple. They are calibrating and are fixing XT pricing which is was too low margin and which they initially priced in a way to compete with Alpa et al., but I think they feel encouraged now and they estimate that it is all about breaking the back entry price barrier and once people are hooked you sell them the XT and lenses. Imagine you got an XT with just a little 32. Then at one point you want more lenses - boom. Swallow that 10k! And the other tech cam manufacturers? Starving. Who is buying an Alpa lens without shutter now? Even if you buy Alpa stuff the migration date to XT shutter is up in the air - now it is Q4 at the earliest I hear. They are destroying their business by starving supply.

The old XT lenses can't be changed in price because it is out there, so the new pricing applies for the new lenses. Don't want to see the price for the 138! So basically the big losers are people with a back already. And the XT - yes, pls. upgrade because we blocked the functionality from IQ3 ... too bad. But! You can upgrade now for a bite less than before.

I think they are against the wall a bit financially. As is Alpa.China demand down, P1 starving them of shutters. Sad.
 
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Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
The reason is that they feel they make not enough margin on the lenses and want to sell more backs with hefty margins. On top, cheaper backs facilitates people joining the platform. The old XT lenses can't be changed in price because it is out there, so the new pricing applies for the new lenses. Don't want to see the price for the 138! And the added benefit of it all is that the more are on the platform, the more lenses they sell. So basically the big losers are people with a back already. And as mentioned, the need to pay Cambo for mounting and Rodie too and then the margins were too low, I understand.

I think they are against the wall a bit financially. As is Alpa.
I don't know that people with an IQ4 already are big losers! Yes, if they haven't already gone in the direction of an XT, they have to pay some more. But not for any of the lenses, no changes there. And they've had the use of the IQ for this period of time, would they rather have not had the use of the IQ4 for the difference in price of the XT for the past 22 months, probably not.

I expect collaboration with Alpa and perhaps Arca Swiss (and of course Cambo) with the X Shutter platform. In fact, I see the development of the XT as a very positive element (potentially) to those companies. Cambo has an advantage with the native Cambo mount. But I know first hand that Alpa and Phase One have had substantial discussions regarding the future implementation of the X Shutter.

It will take some time for them. I don't think it is fair to consider that Alpa has fallen on tough times because there is a low amount of activity from their site recently - in the middle of a pandemic with massive lockdowns and closings across the world. They're still there, don't sink them prematurely. The fear is that they are left out of the X Shutter consortium and this is not the case.


Steve Hendrix/CI
 

Paul2660

Well-known member
It's become a non issue for me, pricing of this equipment is just off the scale now. 12K for a lens in a XT mount, for one lens, just outside the boundary of reality now with everything else going on and no end in sight at least in the US. Can't even consider purchasing something of that cost that's just going to sit locked in a safe for 2 or more years as travel is out of the question for someone in my age group.

I wish P1 the best, hopefully they will get around to stabilization of the IQ4, but not going to hold my breath on that either. But at least they got the Live View to the level of the IQ3 and IQ2, which only took 1.5 years or so.

The latest issues I have had with C1 licensing tell me that they are having problems on that side too.

Paul C
 

docholliday

Well-known member
That tracks. Last I knew you were holed up in Glenwood Springs, Colorado... as of 1887.
Nah, just over at POTN for a few years as I shot Canon...after many years of shooting 203FE and film before that, finally decided to come back to Hasselblad for digital work.

BTW, that nasty cough from '87 finally went away ;)
 

Christopher

Active member
Care to expand on that comment?
Why would Arca and co need to change something. You can get a Arca system for 2/5 of the price of the XT.

Sure the XT and X shutter have some nice features, but whether it’s worth the money everyone has to decide themself.
 

stngoldberg

Well-known member
“Why would Arca and co need to change something. You can get a Arca system for 2/5 of the price of the XT.”
PLUS with the Arca system you get tilt which to me is the main advantage of technical cameras.
Stanley
 

med

Active member
Why would Arca and co need to change something. You can get a Arca system for 2/5 of the price of the XT.

Sure the XT and X shutter have some nice features, but whether it’s worth the money everyone has to decide themself.
Agreed, the XT has some nice features but some of them I could have with my Arca system once the X shutter is available for other systems. My hope is that the x-shutter will be useable without the IQ4-150 via an app or control module (Silex!) but I’m not holding my breath.
 
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