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P1 substantially increasing prices

Paul Spinnler

Well-known member
Agreed, the XT has some nice features but some of them I could have with my Arca system once the X shutter is available for other systems. My hope is that the x-shutter will be useable without the IQ4-150 via an app or control module (Silex!) but I’m not holding my breath.
P1 will sell the shutters quite expensively and delay it until XT tapers off. Latest I heard is an optimistic Q4. Means sometime in 21 for a substantial mark-up ... imagine lens prices where alpa, rodie and p1 get a cut ...
 

Mexecutioner

Well-known member
“Why would Arca and co need to change something. You can get a Arca system for 2/5 of the price of the XT.”
PLUS with the Arca system you get tilt which to me is the main advantage of technical cameras.
Stanley
I was thinking about adding an XT to my bag, but with the disparity in prices for some of the lenses I’m gonna wait and see how the dust settles and what happens with Alpa and the X-shutter. May get an aperture only lens now to scratch the itch.
 

Paul Spinnler

Well-known member
I was thinking about adding an XT to my bag, but with the disparity in prices for some of the lenses I’m gonna wait and see how the dust settles and what happens with Alpa and the X-shutter. May get an aperture only lens now to scratch the itch.
Don't hold your breath on timeline. They are aware of the price disparity and want to squeeze the x-shutter monopoly. P1 has said they will make x-shutter available early 2020 ... now it is Q4 earliest ... but is it in their interest when they are about to expand the XT line? C'mon. P1 sees how sales develop, Lance and Doug probably feedback sales statistics to P1 HQ indicating wiggle room on pricing given other tech cams stall in sales, etc. and the reality is the shutter will first and foremost land on their own lenses. Hell if I were a P1 manager I'd also squeeze margins and delay opening of the ecosystem. This is dirty business tricks 101. If the 50 costs 12k, brace yourself for 14-15k lenses entering the arena with the 90HR / 138 HR.

I think they are just playing the game of publicly stating that it will be made available soon, but the reality is it is a tough environment atm and the X-shutter is the key differentiator of the XT. Why on earth make it available soon if XT sales are going strong? It is an age-old business strategy - starve out the competitionn by not supplying key components. It may even be anti-competitive. I think they will just state it to be a good citizen, but delay it to the max.citing reasons of Corona, etc. because this is the perfect excuse to delay that timeline given out initially seeing how well XT fares. Alternatively they can make it available, but freely decide on price. So what if the licensing of each shutter will be 4k or more?

Imagine Alpa pricing then as P1 won't let it happen that other manufacturers with XT shutters undercut their prices. If an Alpa XT 50 4.0 would cost 11k vs. P1 XT at 12 ... it would be just for the compact body and metadata stuff ... but is this going to happen for real? Would you let competitors undercut you in pricing by selling them a key differentiating component? Only solution to this for Alpa is to come up with a proprietary solution, but after e-shutter got killed and given X shutter is vastly better and given they are a lot smaller and just sunk money into the Fuji exoskeleton project which didn't take off ... doubt they have the resources, capabilities or risk appetite to R&D a competitive alternative to the X shutter.

P1 is a behemoth compared to them able to cross-sell the x-shutter technology into "consumer" after having developed it in their industrial segment for the industrial reconnaissance / mapping applications. So basically it is check mate for them and they are dependent on the "mercy" of P1. Poor them, previously they were king of the hill in tech cam land and now financially capable photographers and enthusiasts are slowly buying into XT because at the very top you want the best and the shutter is important and integration is differentiating.

And Cambo? Well they are the ones laughing in the corner getting a cut on each XT and XT lens sold. Smart Dutch.
 

Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
Don't hold your breath on timeline. They are aware of the price disparity and want to squeeze the x-shutter monopoly. P1 has said they will make x-shutter available early 2020 ... now it is Q4 earliest ... but is it in their interest when they are about to expand the XT line? C'mon. P1 sees how sales develop, Lance and Doug probably feedback sales statistics to P1 HQ indicating wiggle room on pricing given other tech cams stall in sales, etc. and the reality is the shutter will first and foremost land on their own lenses. Hell if I were a P1 manager I'd also squeeze margins and delay opening of the ecosystem. This is dirty business tricks 101. If the 50 costs 12k, brace yourself for 14-15k lenses entering the arena with the 90HR / 138 HR.

I think they are just playing the game of publicly stating that it will be made available soon, but the reality is it is a tough environment atm and the X-shutter is the key differentiator of the XT. Why on earth make it available soon if XT sales are going strong? It is an age-old business strategy - starve out the competitionn by not supplying key components. It may even be anti-competitive. I think they will just state it to be a good citizen, but delay it to the max.citing reasons of Corona, etc. because this is the perfect excuse to delay that timeline given out initially seeing how well XT fares. Alternatively they can make it available, but freely decide on price. So what if the licensing of each shutter will be 4k or more?

Imagine Alpa pricing then as P1 won't let it happen that other manufacturers with XT shutters undercut their prices. If an Alpa XT 50 4.0 would cost 11k vs. P1 XT at 12 ... it would be just for the compact body and metadata stuff ... but is this going to happen for real? Would you let competitors undercut you in pricing by selling them a key differentiating component? Only solution to this for Alpa is to come up with a proprietary solution, but after e-shutter got killed and given X shutter is vastly better and given they are a lot smaller and just sunk money into the Fuji exoskeleton project which didn't take off ... doubt they have the resources, capabilities or risk appetite to R&D a competitive alternative to the X shutter.

P1 is a behemoth compared to them able to cross-sell the x-shutter technology into "consumer" after having developed it in their industrial segment for the industrial reconnaissance / mapping applications. So basically it is check mate for them and they are dependent on the "mercy" of P1. Poor them, previously they were king of the hill in tech cam land and now financially capable photographers and enthusiasts are slowly buying into XT because at the very top you want the best and the shutter is important and integration is differentiating.

And Cambo? Well they are the ones laughing in the corner getting a cut on each XT and XT lens sold. Smart Dutch.

I don't see Phase One and Alpa as competitors, I see them as partners. If Phase One decided to produce an XT body in house with a proprietary mount all their own, then that would perhaps be sending a message that yes, we are not going to partner with tech camera manufacturers any longer and we're going it alone. Since their approach has been to include a tech camera manufacturer already in this process (Cambo), my feeling is that they continue to value the tech camera segment from a collaborative standpoint. That they created a Cambo specific mount is both promising and disappointing (that it makes it more difficult for other industry partners - and those who use their products - to seamlessly take part in the solution.

It's a shame that the XT mounting is a non universal mount. I strongly feel it is in Phase One's best interest to strengthen the category and and the industry partners and not shut them out. The involvement between Phase One and Alpa in the X Shutter implementation is active (and hopefully this will include Arca Swiss as well).

Back to the OP, today we have published the pricing changes from Phase One.

https://captureintegration.com/phase-one-digital-back-price-reduction/


Steve Hendrix/CI
 

Phase V

Member
Hmm, according to your price list upgrading my IQ3 100 to IQ4 150 is $21.990
but upgrading and old IQ140 is $25.000 which means my back is just around
$3000 more worth than a back that´s 3xtimes older?
 

Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
Hmm, according to your price list upgrading my IQ3 100 to IQ4 150 is $21.990
but upgrading and old IQ140 is $25.000 which means my back is just around
$3000 more worth than a back that´s 3xtimes older?

Please keep in mind that we are Capture Integration. We're not Phase One. Phase One provided this pricing to us. Rather than spin it, or justify it, as some do, we made the decision to publish it in the name of transparency, given the historically cloaked nature of Phase One pricing. We understand this puts us in the crosshairs for any questions that come up. But we did not create the pricing, we are only publishing the pricing.

With that said, yes, there are some weirdnesses with the pricing. We have asked for clarification on some of these prices. At this point, on the face of it, it appears they have tried to lower the upgrade pricing from legacy digital backs, and also to put a consistent cap on the upgrade pricing. But there are resulting inequities. An IQ140 should not have the same upgrade value as an IQ280 (both can upgrade to IQ4 150 for $25k). Nor only be $3,000 less than your IQ3 100.

We're looking into it.


Steve Hendrix/CI
 

Paul Spinnler

Well-known member
Please keep in mind that we are Capture Integration. We're not Phase One. Phase One provided this pricing to us. Rather than spin it, or justify it, as some do, we made the decision to publish it in the name of transparency, given the historically cloaked nature of Phase One pricing. We understand this puts us in the crosshairs for any questions that come up. But we did not create the pricing, we are only publishing the pricing.

With that said, yes, there are some weirdnesses with the pricing. We have asked for clarification on some of these prices. At this point, on the face of it, it appears they have tried to lower the upgrade pricing from legacy digital backs, and also to put a consistent cap on the upgrade pricing. But there are resulting inequities. An IQ140 should not have the same upgrade value as an IQ280 (both can upgrade to IQ4 150 for $25k). Nor only be $3,000 less than your IQ3 100.

We're looking into it.


Steve Hendrix/CI

They want to sell more backs - the highest margin product and this means units need to now be moved, meaning more recent back owners lose relatively as prices are equalized for lowe entry point across the board
 

Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
They want to sell more backs - the highest margin product and this means units need to now be moved, meaning more recent back owners lose relatively as prices are equalized for lowe entry point across the board

Paul, they always need to sell more backs. This is nothing new.

I question this as a strategy though to incentivise owners of lower end legacy models to upgrade, and I don't know if that is their sole intent. They would be better off incentivising an IQ280 owner more to upgrade rather than an IQ140 owner. If an IQ140 owner was going to upgrade, most would have done so by now, considering the IQ140 was introduced almost 10 years ago.

Phase One told us they wanted a "simpler" upgrade structure. The trade in equalization is something they have done before. They have lumped older backs like P20/P21/P25 into one consistent trade in value. What makes this feel weird is the level of disparity between the value of some of these models today, and especially when they were introduced.

With that said, all models IQ380 and lower are at significantly reduced upgrade pricing now toward IQ4 150. An IQ150 owner just had their IQ4 150 upgrade price reduced by $11,000. I would rather have seen that split and more offered to an IQ280 owner (or an IQ3 100 owner).


Steve Hendrix/CI
 
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Paul Spinnler

Well-known member
Paul, they always need to sell more backs. This is nothing new.

I question this as a strategy though to incentivise owners of lower end legacy models to upgrade, and I don't know if that is their sole intent. They would be better off incentivising an IQ280 owner more to upgrade rather than an IQ140 owner. If an IQ140 owner was going to upgrade, most would have done so by now, considering the IQ140 was introduced almost 10 years ago.

Phase One told us they wanted a "simpler" upgrade structure. The trade in equalization is something they have done before. They have lumped older backs like P20/P21/P25 into one consistent trade in value. What makes this feel weird is the level of disparity between the value of some of these models today, and especially when they were introduced.

With that said, all models IQ380 and lower are at significantly reduced upgrade pricing now toward IQ4 150. An IQ150 owner just had their IQ4 150 upgrade price reduced by $11,000. I would rather have seen that split and more offered to an IQ280 owner (or an IQ3 100 owner).


Steve Hendrix/CI
I just hope they come to their senses regarding XT lens prices. 12k for a 50 4.0 - tough one
 
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