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Thread: Phase One P45+ Body Choices

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    Phase One P45+ Body Choices

    I am close to purchasing a phase one P45+ back. As i already own a mamiya 645AFD(I) body and lenses what advantages/disadvantages are there between a mamiya 645 AFD and Hasselblad H system? I am looking for feedback from anyone that ghas used there bodies with the P45+ back. I do not shoot professionally and shoot mostly landscapes, rare portraits, and macro.

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    Re: Phase One P45+ Body Choices

    Depends really if you need a leaf shutter or not and sounds like you do not than I would go with the Mamiya myself since you already own one . Mamiya lenses will be smaller and lighter because of no leaf shutter and typically cheaper depending on what lens and speed it has. There both very good systems . For the Hassy will need a H2 for the Phase back and I think the H2F will take a 28mm lens but a Hassy shooter can confirm that for sure. I would if you can play with both Camera bodies and see what you like before you buy the back since you have to chose a mount for it. A lot of this comes down to personal preference also and feels good in your hand and the system behind the body. Some will like the Hassy better and frankly there is no right or wrong here. Either way you still have the Phase back and C1 to work with so no changes there and C1 will see the Hassy glass for lens corrections with a Phase back. I personally went the Mamiya route and don't regret it and will most likely continue with it for a long time. For me that is a major commitment.

    There is a P45+ and hassy for sale in the B&S right now also you may want to consider if Hassy is the way you want to go.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Phase One P45+ Body Choices

    There is a hardly used Hassey H2 and P45+ with 2 years of warranty left for sale in the F/S section here. It's listed by Lance, a Phase Dealer rep for a customer of his I think, so the source is a good one.

    The main difference between the two cameras is that the Mamiya is a focal plane camera and the H cameras are leaf shutter.

    I have owned and use both and stayed with the H system because I use strobes in studio and fill flash outdoors thus needed the higher 1/800th sync speed verses the Mamiya's max 1/125th sync.

    Depends on your specific needs.

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    Re: Phase One P45+ Body Choices

    Cross posting ... LOL!

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    Re: Phase One P45+ Body Choices

    I noticed and we both said essentially the same thing and this comes from two Pro's that in reality think almost the same things but we both shoot different systems and for different reasons. There is no right or wrong just preferences
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    Re: Phase One P45+ Body Choices

    i have already communicated about the P45+ and hassy kit. One reason i am leaning to mamiya is that i am taking delivery on a pentax 67 to mamiya adapter so i can use my pentax67 100mm macro lens and my pentax 67 bellows for 3x macro work (pentax 67 bellows, mamiya 645 body and P45+) with the P45+,i am excited about that possible combo. I also don't want to add to my already large collection of camera bodies. I have a ZD camera that i am trying to sell. I am impressed with the quality and naturally wanted to go a step further in terms MP count and long exposures.

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    Re: Phase One P45+ Body Choices

    How heavily invested are you in Mamiya glass? If you already have the platform with lotsa glass---then I think you would be better off with getting a MFDB with that platform. You can always change platforms and switch the Phase back later.....particularly since you'll probably want to upgrade your camera body eventually...

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    Re: Phase One P45+ Body Choices

    Quote Originally Posted by felix5616 View Post
    I am close to purchasing a phase one P45+ back. As i already own a mamiya 645AFD(I) body and lenses what advantages/disadvantages are there between a mamiya 645 AFD and Hasselblad H system? I am looking for feedback from anyone that ghas used there bodies with the P45+ back. I do not shoot professionally and shoot mostly landscapes, rare portraits, and macro.
    I agree with Guy; the task of deciding between bodies should start with leaf vs. focal plane shutter. Both bodies are exceptional tools and each has niches where its advantages make it the better choice.

    Landscape
    Using a leaf shutter lens (the H body) for landscape you will suffer (extra weight, size, cost - slow max shutter speed) without benefit (high flash-sync-speed doesn't ).

    Portraits
    Portraits taken without flash or studio portraits are largely the same between the two bodies. Portraits taken on sunny days outdoors with flash favor the leaf-shutter in the H-body IF you want to make the flash the primary light source and not just fill.

    Macro

    The Mamiya/Phase and Hasselblad Macro lenses are both absolutely stellar; however, there are two bellows systems for the Mamiya/Phase if you ever want to go past 1:1. I don't think (correction anyone?) that the Hasselblad system has any bellows system (leaf shutter lenses make such systems more difficult).

    Usually I would list the dozens of pros/cons of each body, but if you're shooting mostly landscape and already have/like the Mamiya body then I wouldn't look much further. In the future you might upgrade to a more recent version of the AFD body, but most of the improvements don't apply to landscape photography. You might also consider a technical body which is dedicated to landscape photography; they are harder to use (generally speaking) but produce unquestionably the highest image quality available when using the latest large format lenses.

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    Re: Phase One P45+ Body Choices

    I'll agree with everything that's been said already and just add one small point: That it is easy to adapt third-party lenses and accessories to focal-plan shuttered bodies, but virtually impossible to adapt them to leaf-shutter bodies. So here, with your current stable of Mamiya and Pentax glass and bellows, the Mamiya body sounds like the most logical choice...
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    Re: Phase One P45+ Body Choices

    I use an H2 with my 45+ and it will NOT take the new H28mm lens to my knowledge. anyone correct me if I'm wrong but think the new 28 lens only works with the newer H3 models. I love my H2 but they are hard to come by as they have been discontinued. Eleanor


    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Depends really if you need a leaf shutter or not and sounds like you do not than I would go with the Mamiya myself since you already own one . Mamiya lenses will be smaller and lighter because of no leaf shutter and typically cheaper depending on what lens and speed it has. There both very good systems . For the Hassy will need a H2 for the Phase back and I think the H2F will take a 28mm lens but a Hassy shooter can confirm that for sure. I would if you can play with both Camera bodies and see what you like before you buy the back since you have to chose a mount for it. A lot of this comes down to personal preference also and feels good in your hand and the system behind the body. Some will like the Hassy better and frankly there is no right or wrong here. Either way you still have the Phase back and C1 to work with so no changes there and C1 will see the Hassy glass for lens corrections with a Phase back. I personally went the Mamiya route and don't regret it and will most likely continue with it for a long time. For me that is a major commitment.

    There is a P45+ and hassy for sale in the B&S right now also you may want to consider if Hassy is the way you want to go.

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    Re: Phase One P45+ Body Choices

    Thanks Eleanor but I think the F model will. Maybe David can chime is to confirm this. I remember on a workshop Joe Ramos heard from Hassy that he could use it. But let's confirm this up for sure.
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    Re: Phase One P45+ Body Choices

    It has been confirm by Phase One that the new H2F will not work with a Phase One back. There was a lot of rumors that this combination should work when the H2 was discontinued overnight. I am still a huge H2 fan and we continue to supply customer with H1/H2 bodies and Phase One backs. This will not change.

    It is a real shame that platform was short lived and no one at Hasselblad felt their was a need to support the 28mm lens.

    H2 F for Film, right.


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    Re: Phase One P45+ Body Choices

    Thanks Chris. Really appreciate the clarification on this subject. I agree lot's of rumors on this
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Phase One P45+ Body Choices

    Guy,yes you are correct, it can be used on the F model....but can you use a Phase digital back with the F model? Maybe with cables, etc?? don't know. I go waaay back with Hasselblad, as I do with Phase....I'm sorry to see Hasselblad had d/c-ed the H2, thus cutting out Phase as we all know...sigh.....Eleanor

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Depends really if you need a leaf shutter or not and sounds like you do not than I would go with the Mamiya myself since you already own one . Mamiya lenses will be smaller and lighter because of no leaf shutter and typically cheaper depending on what lens and speed it has. There both very good systems . For the Hassy will need a H2 for the Phase back and I think the H2F will take a 28mm lens but a Hassy shooter can confirm that for sure. I would if you can play with both Camera bodies and see what you like before you buy the back since you have to chose a mount for it. A lot of this comes down to personal preference also and feels good in your hand and the system behind the body. Some will like the Hassy better and frankly there is no right or wrong here. Either way you still have the Phase back and C1 to work with so no changes there and C1 will see the Hassy glass for lens corrections with a Phase back. I personally went the Mamiya route and don't regret it and will most likely continue with it for a long time. For me that is a major commitment.

    There is a P45+ and hassy for sale in the B&S right now also you may want to consider if Hassy is the way you want to go.
    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Thanks Eleanor but I think the F model will. Maybe David can chime is to confirm this. I remember on a workshop Joe Ramos heard from Hassy that he could use it. But let's confirm this up for sure.

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    Re: Phase One P45+ Body Choices

    It is not even true if the H3D2 with their future 60MP back will be able to support the 28 lens as it currently exists. Definitely NOT without even more SW correction (vignetting, edge sharpening and distortion correction) as for their 50 and 39MP backs.

    On the Phase/Mamiya the 28 works also for fil backs - NO SW correction here

    I call this really open, future proof and great!

    If I would buy a P45+ back my decision would be clear - go with a Phase/Mamiya camera and lenses

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    Re: Phase One P45+ Body Choices

    Quote Originally Posted by eleanorbrown View Post
    Guy,yes you are correct, it can be used on the F model....but can you use a Phase digital back with the F model? Maybe with cables, etc?? don't know. I go waaay back with Hasselblad, as I do with Phase....I'm sorry to see Hasselblad had d/c-ed the H2, thus cutting out Phase as we all know...sigh.....Eleanor

    The talk prior to the release of the H2 F model was that you could use a Phase One H mounted back and a sync cable like we do on the Hasselblad V system. We waited to hear from support if this was true because the H2F was suppose to support the 28mm which was never supported when using a H1/H2 with Phase One backs.

    Listed below is the offical word from P1 and the use of their backs on the
    H2 F. Now I really know why they called it a H2 F. Use your imagination.


    Chris Snipes
    Image Production, Inc
    Phase One Reseller
    Phase One Test Studio

    www.imageproduction.com
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    Using a sync cable from the body was Hasselblad's original claim of how the H2f (back when they said the f stood for film) would work with 3rd party backs. Of course many things changed since that first announcement. Hasselblad went back on their announcement, did a 180 and instead of building a simplified body, they merely upgraded the firmware of the H2 to block 3rd party backs, and allow more integration with Hasselblad backs.

    In other words, even though they once said a sync cable will work... it will not.

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    Re: Phase One P45+ Body Choices

    Quote Originally Posted by Digitalcameraman View Post
    The talk prior to the release of the H2 F model was that you could use a Phase One H mounted back and a sync cable like we do on the Hasselblad V system. We waited to hear from support if this was true because the H2F was suppose to support the 28mm which was never supported when using a H1/H2 with Phase One backs.

    Listed below is the offical word from P1 and the use of their backs on the
    H2 F. Now I really know why they called it a H2 F. Use your imagination.


    Chris Snipes
    Image Production, Inc
    Phase One Reseller
    Phase One Test Studio

    www.imageproduction.com
    [email protected]


    Using a sync cable from the body was Hasselblad's original claim of how the H2f (back when they said the f stood for film) would work with 3rd party backs. Of course many things changed since that first announcement. Hasselblad went back on their announcement, did a 180 and instead of building a simplified body, they merely upgraded the firmware of the H2 to block 3rd party backs, and allow more integration with Hasselblad backs.

    In other words, even though they once said a sync cable will work... it will not.

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    And BTW - just be happy it does not work, because I think a sync cable is not really a great solution

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    Re: Phase One P45+ Body Choices

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    And BTW - just be happy it does not work, because I think a sync cable is not really a great solution
    Less options for users is rarely a good thing.

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    Re: Phase One P45+ Body Choices

    Naughty Hasselblad. They're pretty serious about closing the system.

    As far as focal plane goes, for landscape, I was shooting today at midday middle east full blown sun, getting a 1/50th f22 @ iso 100 which is pretty much exactly what it should have been given 'sunny f16'. If you're shooting landscape with medium format you are stopping down and given the iso properties of these backs, using a lower iso. It's probably unlikely that a landscape shooter with a MFDB is going to sweat a max 1/500 or 1/800 shutter speed. Commercial is another kettle of fish. So is lugging heavy leaf shutter lenses in your bag.
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    Re: Phase One P45+ Body Choices

    Quote Originally Posted by Digitalcameraman View Post
    It has been confirm by Phase One that the new H2F will not work with a Phase One back. There was a lot of rumors that this combination should work when the H2 was discontinued overnight. I am still a huge H2 fan and we continue to supply customer with H1/H2 bodies and Phase One backs. This will not change.

    It is a real shame that platform was short lived and no one at Hasselblad felt their was a need to support the 28mm lens.


    Chris Snipes
    Image Production, Inc
    Phase One Reseller
    Phase One Test Studio

    www.imageproduction.com
    [email protected]

    "H2 F for Film, right."

    Not quite correct ... actually, not correct at all if the implication is that the H2F camera is only a film camera.

    The H2F accepts all current and former Hasselblad CF, CF-II and CFH, single and multi-shot digital backs as well as H film backs ... while providing access to the DAC corrections, where the H2 does not. The H2F supports all of the HC lenses when using any of the backs mentioned, including the 28mm.

    The difference is the firmware in the camera and the digital back ... which is upgraded through the Phocus software. It's all part of the integrated philosophy of one cohesive system between body, back, lens and software, and the ability to add system components like the HTS and new zoom with DAC programed in via continuous firmware and software upgrades.

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    Re: Phase One P45+ Body Choices

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    I agree with Guy; the task of deciding between bodies should start with leaf vs. focal plane shutter. Both bodies are exceptional tools and each has niches where its advantages make it the better choice.

    Landscape
    Using a leaf shutter lens (the H body) for landscape you will suffer (extra weight, size, cost - slow max shutter speed) without benefit (high flash-sync-speed doesn't ).

    Portraits
    Portraits taken without flash or studio portraits are largely the same between the two bodies. Portraits taken on sunny days outdoors with flash favor the leaf-shutter in the H-body

    Macro

    The Mamiya/Phase and Hasselblad Macro lenses are both absolutely stellar; however, there are two bellows systems for the Mamiya/Phase if you ever want to go past 1:1. I don't think (correction anyone?) that the Hasselblad system has any bellows system (leaf shutter lenses make such systems more difficult).

    Usually I would list the dozens of pros/cons of each body, but if you're shooting mostly landscape and already have/like the Mamiya body then I wouldn't look much further. In the future you might upgrade to a more recent version of the AFD body, but most of the improvements don't apply to landscape photography. You might also consider a technical body which is dedicated to landscape photography; they are harder to use (generally speaking) but produce unquestionably the highest image quality available when using the latest large format lenses.

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    "IF you want to make the flash the primary light source and not just fill."


    Doug, outdoor portraits using 1/800th sync rather than 1/125th allows use of wider apertures to separate subject from background, and the fill can be set to taste. One need not use flash as the primary light source as you state. Use of a longer lens for portrait or environmental photos with some movement @ 1/125th with just a touch of fill is something I personally avoid.

    Not advocating one system over the other, the original poster can sort that out based on his needs. Just keeping it balanced.

    Here's an example shot @ 1/750th shutter with just enough fill for the back lit subject ... shot in direct sun at water's edge.

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    Re: Phase One P45+ Body Choices

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Thanks Chris. Really appreciate the clarification on this subject. I agree lot's of rumors on this
    Unfortunately the above clarification is partially incorrect.

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    Re: Phase One P45+ Body Choices

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    Naughty Hasselblad. They're pretty serious about closing the system.

    As far as focal plane goes, for landscape, I was shooting today at midday middle east full blown sun, getting a 1/50th f22 @ iso 100 which is pretty much exactly what it should have been given 'sunny f16'. If you're shooting landscape with medium format you are stopping down and given the iso properties of these backs, using a lower iso. It's probably unlikely that a landscape shooter with a MFDB is going to sweat a max 1/500 or 1/800 shutter speed. Commercial is another kettle of fish. So is lugging heavy leaf shutter lenses in your bag.
    The vast majority of landscape is geared towards max DOF. However, there is interesting landscape work isolating things with very shallow DOF. In that situation your example translates from 1/50th f/22 ISO100 to 1/4000th f/2.8 ISO100. On a Hasselblad body limited to 1/800th you have a little more than 2 stops less flexibility to create such imagery (a 2-stop ND filter could fix that, but you'd need to always carry one for each of your lenses and composing/focus becomes more strained).

    But obviously this is very minor consideration next to more prominent things like weight/size/cost.

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    Re: Phase One P45+ Body Choices

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    And BTW - just be happy it does not work, because I think a sync cable is not really a great solution
    Stone aged actually.

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    Re: Phase One P45+ Body Choices

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    "IF you want to make the flash the primary light source and not just fill."

    Doug, outdoor portraits using 1/800th sync rather than 1/125th allows use of wider apertures to separate subject from background, and the fill can be set to taste. One need not use flash as the primary light source as you state. Use of a longer lens for portrait or environmental photos with some movement @ 1/125th with just a touch of fill is something I personally avoid.

    Not advocating one system over the other, the original poster can sort that out based on his needs. Just keeping it balanced.

    Here's an example shot @ 1/750th shutter with just enough fill for the back lit subject ... shot in direct sun at water's edge.
    You're absolutely correct. That's a great example of a shot that is much easier with a leaf shutter lens. The focal plane shutter could do it at 1/125 but only with a 2 stop ND filter and then a tripod to keep the long lens steady.

    Great shot by the way.

    Until Hassy ships a focal plane H2 body or Mamiya gets their Leaf Shutter Lenses on shelves there won't be a system that can do it all. Too bad for everyone except me (I have all the cameras on my shelf :-)).

    I was thinking more along these lines which would likewise be way more difficult with a focal plane shutter:

    Shot with a P30+H on an H2 body and SB800s in Vegas (more images). By Doug Peterson.



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    Re: Phase One P45+ Body Choices

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    You're absolutely correct. That's a great example of a shot that is much easier with a leaf shutter lens. The focal plane shutter could do it at 1/125 but only with a 2 stop ND filter and then a tripod to keep the long lens steady.

    Great shot by the way.

    Until Hassy ships a focal plane H2 body or Mamiya gets their Leaf Shutter Lenses on shelves there won't be a system that can do it all. Too bad for everyone except me (I have all the cameras on my shelf :-)).

    I was thinking more along these lines which would likewise be way more difficult with a focal plane shutter:

    Shot with a P30+H on an H2 body and SB800s in Vegas (more images). By Doug Peterson.



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    yep.

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    Re: Phase One P45+ Body Choices

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    Less options for users is rarely a good thing.

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    Interestingly, Hasselblad's decision to close up the H series has lead to MORE options, not fewer options. The naysayers just don't want to deal with that reality because it doesn't fit their marketing spin. If Hasselblad had not closed up the H series, Phase would still be exactly where it was 2.5 years ago, sucking up all the profits on its backs and contributing jack s..t to any camera/lens R&D for the medium format "community". Mamiya would be probably be out of business, relegated to the KEH dustbin along with Pentax, Contax and Bronica. Doubtful that the Hy6 would ever have seen the light of day if the H was not closed up.

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    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One P45+ Body Choices

    Quote Originally Posted by hcubell View Post
    Interestingly, Hasselblad's decision to close up the H series has lead to MORE options, not fewer options. The naysayers just don't want to deal with that reality because it doesn't fit their marketing spin. If Hasselblad had not closed up the H series, Phase would still be exactly where it was 2.5 years ago, sucking up all the profits on its backs and contributing jack s..t to any camera/lens R&D for the medium format "community". Mamiya would be probably be out of business, relegated to the KEH dustbin along with Pentax, Contax and Bronica. Doubtful that the Hy6 would ever have seen the light of day if the H was not closed up.

    I feel Hasselblad's actions hastened events rather than initiated them. I believe all of the DB makers at the time understood they needed their own digital camera platforms - even Contax and Bronica understood it, they just didn't get it done in time. What Hasselblad did was add a little more urgency to the situation.


    Steve Hendrix
    Phase One

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