Leaf versus Phase

[ptomsu]

All,

I am overwhelmed by all the input, really valuable and good for me. You bring me so much further in my decision process, and help me obviously spare a lot of money same time!

For me MF digital is the real next step, I had a look into tech cameras (Linhof, Cambo) this week and I must say this is really cool stuff, but for the moment I cannot think of flying somewhere in the world with such a ton of equipment in my suitcase and then travel around and use this while on a trip. I also considered film several times and my Flextight X5 would love to se this material, but for me the analog process is just too time consuming and I do not want to continue like that! Want to get on a trip, make my shoots (500 - 1000 photos) and then publish 100 or so out of them for sale. This is what I want to see for the next years. With film and scanning putting these 100 pictures on the WEB would cost me at least 6 months of heavy editing work. With a pure and well balanced digital workflow it takes maybe 2 or 3 days.

So I think it will have to be MF digital for my next future (4-5 years at least). And when I consider MFDBs I come more and more close to Phase and their P45+ mainly because of the system behind it, the resolution it gives me for landscape and the great killer SW behind it - C1.

For me the evaluation criteria turn out something like

20% back and its overall quality
20% system (camera, glass etc)
10% flexibility (open system allowing me to use back on other cameras)
20% price
30% SW behind the system.

If it would not be C1 then Hasselblad would be my favorite, just because it is still cheaper as the Phase system at least with the same resolution on paper. But I do not need any leaf shutter and short sync times as I almost never work (or plan to work) in a studio and especially not with studio flash. Thus a Phase / Mamiya system is much better suited for my needs.

Still I have some time for further investigations and I will make best use of it. So please keep posting your thoughts, cannot get enough of this valuable input.

THANKS!

 

[Paratom]

.....But I do not need any leaf shutter and short sync times as I almost never work (or plan to work) in a studio and especially not with studio flash. Thus a Phase / Mamiya system is much better suited for my needs.

Still I have some time for further investigations and I will make best use of it. So please keep posting your thoughts, cannot get enough of this valuable input.

THANKS!

Peter,
I just wanted to comment that I find Leaf Shutter to be an advantage outside. If you shoot portrait stuff in bright light and want to fill flash. It allows me to shoot with open f-stops for shallow DOF and still use fill.
I also think that it might produce less vibration.
When I decided for the Hy6 Leaf shutter weas not the main argument for me (the main arguments where glass, posibility to use a nice WLF and rotating back) but now since I have it I had several sitatuins where I thought Leaf shutter is cool.
Last Sunday we had an event where I used my M8 in the noon-sun and I had to close the f-stop to f11 to get the 1/180 Sync time for fill (harsh light, bad shaddows).
Or if I shoot with fill with my 180mm lens its nice to shoot at 1/500 to be sure to not get any shake problems in the image.
Of course this is probably not important if you shoot landscapes only.

Regarding the software I have to admit that C1 offers more feautures than the Sinar software. However after getting used to Sinar-Exposure it works fine too. I have used Adobe PS and LR, C1 and also Sinar but I feel the same way as Jack said before - best thing is to use the native software of the back.

One other thing I wanted to mention is size / weight: While I believe the differences between the cameras and back in weight are not that big, I would think Rollei lenses to be heavier than Hassy and Hassy to be heavier than Mamiya. I love those Rollei lenses, but I would not want to travel with 5 of them in a backpack. (Thats why I usually never carry more than 3 which works fine). But compared to Mamiya/Phase lenses they are quite big and heavy. (However they also feel much more solid IMO)

Ahh, and one more thing. If you are sure that you do not go for a tech camera I would strongly recommend to also put one of the faster 30MP backs into consideration. Personally one of the things which I feel most limiting with my 54LV-back is that I would like to move up ISO more often.

Viele Grüße, Tom

 

[ptomsu]

Thanks Tom!

I agree with your observations on leaf shutter, issue for me is that I almost never use flash. Maybe this is a wrong thing, but I am just too lazy

I also fully agree on the build quality, size and weight of the Schneider lenses. Remember I owned a 6006 with a 40 and 180 lens and they are stellar performers, but especially the 180 was far to heavy for me.

Hasselblad is a bit smaller and lighter, while Mamiya is definitely the smallest and lightest combination today. This is another huge argument for me, as I usually on my trips do some hiking over some hours always with the gear in my backpack. And I remember I hated my Rollei during those hikes

Another reason why I m not looking into a tech camera for the moment. Maybe if I get older and just drive my car to nice viewpoints and do some small walk, then a tech camera would become an option. But this is in some more years and then I can go for another back, which is state of the art then and is the latest and greatest in everything

I remember when I bought my 6006 one of the arguments was that it would provide the best path to digital of all existing MF solutions 10 years ago. Now where am I today and where is my Rollei gear? All sold since years and I am jumping in new and fresh systems again. And this will always be the case - at least for me. So after a few years one like me should have fully used the system I bought it for and go the next step. Just my experience over my past life

 

[fotografz]

Well, it seems that it's clear that your specific needs lean toward a focal plane camera system. It also seems your applications favor the Phase P+ with it's integrated battery, and heat sink for cooling that is more sealed against the elements.

Since a Phase One back can be specified for any camera, I'd investigate differences between the Mamiya 645 and Contax 645. (Just offering it as an objective exploration of all possibilities.)

I used to travel quite a bit with a Contax and later a Mamiya. One advantage I liked about the Contax was that the prism was interchangeable where the Mamiya is fixed. So, I could remove it for carrying in a smaller bag because it was separated making the body smaller and easier to pack. Plus I could use the waist level finder. In addition, I personally preferred the Zeiss lenses ... 35/3.5, 45/2.8, 55/3.5 (an unbelievable lens with the best front bokeh of any lens I've ever seen), IMO, without a doubt the 120/4 is the best MF macro ever made by anyone at any cost, a 150/2.8, (skip the 210 IMHO), and a stellar 350/4. ... like the Mamiya, any Zeiss V lens can also be used with an adapter. Disadvantage is that the Contax is out of production, but still supported by Tocad for service. The cost is such that a couple of bodies can be had fairly inexpensively as back-up.
One other thing is that Contax made vacuum film backs for 120/220 ... which really worked and assured flat film for every shot.

I also wonder about your experiences with film. You have one heck of an advantage already in that you are one lucky soul to own a X5 scanner. Did you know there is a batch feeder for your Flextight X5, and Hasselblad has them on sale right now? I have essentially the same scanner (Imacon 949) and have run tests on workflow verses using my H3D-II/39 ... essentially in terms of time it was a pretty close to a wash. Maybe our work flow is substantially different which accounts for the different experiences. I just have the film processed with a CD to choose selects then final scan those selects. The 949 is so fast I can hardly prep the next shot before the scan is done and queued for final processing. Were it not for the nature of commercial photography and it's ferocious deadlines with clients breathing down my back, I probably wouldn't be using MF digital very much. But admittedly I'm a film lover, and like the look.:thumbup:

 

[carstenw]

On the topic of the Contax, where can I get a CLA for body/lenses in Europe, and what is it likely to cost?

 

[Francois_A]

All,
I also considered film several times and my Flextight X5 would love to se this material, but for me the analog process is just too time consuming and I do not want to continue like that!

Please, let us know when you want to get rid of your Flextight X5!

 

[hcubell]

Quick response-

When you get over the MFD as a bigger DLSR - which is the error most people will lmake - you will then understand that the best uses for any of these systems is:

1. In landscape hanging off an Alpa/Artec/Cambo etc with a Schneider or a Rodenstock on the front Or with a longer lens hanging off the camera body and using stitiching to get nice panoramas

Pete

My experience is completely different. I shot with a Pentax 67 for 20 years before making the switch to medium format digital. The Pentax 67 in its day was EXACTLY what you said was not the way to view a medium format digital camera. A 35mm SLR on steroids. Why did I use it? Very simple. Big piece of film. Big viewfinder. Simple controls. For me, it was the perfect compromise between upgraded image quality and the hassles/limitations of large format film in a view camera. The only reason I switched to an H3D-39 is because my workflow with medium format film had evolved to a scan/Photoshop/inkjet print workflow, and with the 39mp back on the H3D, I finally had the equivalent of a drum scan of medium format film for free every time I released the shutter. I could not imagine giving up the visual stimulation and compositional advantages of looking through the big, bright, gorgeous viewfinder of the H3D camera. The marginal increase in resolution achieved with a technical camera(which may or may not be there according to Joe Holmes anyway because of the crappy QC of the super expensive digital LF lenses) is, in my view, completely irrelevant in real world shooting. A mediocre photograph does not become a great photograph because it has slightly enhanced resolution, and vice versa. There is nothing I cannot do with an H3D in shooting landscapes that I can do with a technical camera(with no tilts), but there are LOTS of things I can't do with a technical camera. For starters, how about using Helicon Focus to blend for focus? Try that with a technical camera and a MFDB. I was shooting the "other" foliage season in New England(i.e., Spring) this afternoon using a 210mm and a 300mm with and without the 1.7 teleconverter. Many of the frames were multiple focus brackets to achieve a level of depth of field with Helicon Focus that would otherwise be impossible to achieve.

 

[andershald]

Hi Peter.

About 6 months ago I purchased a p30+ on a Contax. I was origianlly tempted to buy the Hasselblad, when they dropped their prices, but after extensive testing of Mamiya, Hasselblad and Contax I decided on the Contax (which at first I had ruled out). The very long process is described in great detail in this thread: http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2933

The conclusion I came to, is that it is virtually impossible to judge a system based on specs and comments in forums. It is imperative to handle the systems and, if possible, try them out in a realistic shoot situation.

The software for processing is also important as you will spend a lot of time with it. I have not tried a recent LeafCapture, but please note the Capture One does NOT support Leaf files.

I also got the impression that the backs all deliver GREAT quality files, and that any differences in look and feel, comes from the way the software treats the files. In other words any look and feel can be achieved with a file from any back. It really boils down to user preferences.

The Contax P30+ combination is the perfect camera for me and my kind of work. I have no problem with the screen on on the P30+, it is not great, but it is good enough for what it needs to do, and it is easier to view in daylight than the Leaf screen, in my opinion. The only thing I am not completely happy with is the system Phase uses for navigating once zoomed into a captured frame. You need to select directions on the buttons for navigating vertically or horizontally and that IS really annoying.

A friend of mine just bought a Contax/A75s kit and handling the system again, after getting used to the Phaseback I was surprised at how bulky the Leaf back is compared to the P30+ and at how annoying the external battery is when trying to use the vertical grip. The Leaf battery renders the vertical grip useless.

It might be worth to look at the new Sinar esprit back? It wasn't out when I bought my kit, but I believe it is competitively priced, can be rotated, will fit most systems AND has the abitilty to save raw+jpg at the same time, which I miss with the P30+.

You can see my kit at work here: www.andershald.blogspot.com

Enjoy the process of choosing your system. It is a great time to buy (anything), dealers are hungry, ha ha.

Best regards,
Anders

 

[dougpeterson]

Hi Peter.
It might be worth to look at the new Sinar esprit back? It wasn't out when I bought my kit, but I believe it is competitively priced, can be rotated, will fit most systems AND has the abitilty to save raw+jpg at the same time, which I miss with the P30+.

You can see my kit at work here: www.andershald.blogspot.com

Enjoy the process of choosing your system. It is a great time to buy (anything), dealers are hungry, ha ha.

Best regards,
Anders

I'm always hungry.

Have you tried the Make Web Contact Sheet feature in C1 4? It can generate 1000px wide JPGs at the rate of a couple per second (a few minutes for a full day's shoot).

Having in-back JPG creation would be a welcome option (not sure how often I would personally use it but more options are almost always better), but Make Web Contact Sheet is a really great replacement in many areas where you would use in-back JPG creation.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up

 

[andershald]

Hi Doug.

I'll try and explore it. I guess I got used to it from the Canon...
Thanks for the suggestion.

Anders

 

[ptomsu]

Anders,

thanks for yor update.

I owned a Contax years ago and I think if I go with a digital system I will go with the Phase system, if I buy a Phase back. Simply because it gives most possibilities and full support for all features.

I fully agree that the Leaf back has several disadvantages: bulkiness, vent, battery placement, large but low contrast screen ....

Thus I have this back already on my exclusion list.

Still interesting are Hasselblad (price) and of course Phase - although I would have liked to see more a P50+ with Crop 1.1 and Dalsa sensor for the price of the P45+ instead of this P40+ with crop 1.3, which might be a good back, but does not meet my needs on a broad front. So for me this is useless development, but not everybody can be satisfied.

Thus the P45+ will be the most interesting Phase solution to go.

What comes always to my mind again and again, since I concluded that 40MP would be enough for my work is the Leica S System - I know I am a bad guy. But from the specs this would exactly fit my needs and if the IQ becomes what everybody expects from Leica, then definitely interesting, also the lens lineup. And very compact. And we can expect it will be fully supported by C1, which is my preferred SW!

So somehow I start to understand their motivation to develop this system, it could become a real winner as all the MFDB vendors and MF camera system vendors seem not really to listen to what some customers need

Well, I know I got burned by Leica and they might come with that system too late for me, but it is still interesting. And do not forget, I am pretty free in my decision, as I do not own anything in the digital MF area.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Last I heard Peter at PMA and was not pleased with the talk at ALL was leica was thinking of doing there own software. Which turned me off instantly and said so to every Leica person standing within ear shot and I am not a quiet person. Now who knows this maybe all speculation on there part BUT if there thinking it than that is not good. The issue is getting up to speed and software like we all know takes years to get it solid and stable . Like Hassy , leaf , Phase and Sinar there software has been around and many changes along the way. Again guinea pig comes to mind here just like firmware this stuff takes time to work it all out and anyone saying it is solid on release is walking down a very very narrow minded path.

 

[ptomsu]

If this is true and they develop their own SW, then you can really forget the S System and all their other systems.

Unfortunately I think, as I mentioned I see the ideas behind the S System now a bit in a different light than I did a few weeks ago. But these are just the principal ideas and execution of these ideas is just a totally different thing.

Don't get nervous, my favorite is still and again Phase camera, lenses and P45+.

Unfortunately Phase did not introduce a P50+ instead of the P40+. Just would have been my very personal favorite - Peter50+ Back with Crop 1.1 and price as the P45+ :ROTFL:

It is allowed to dream - is'nt it?

 

[Guy Mancuso]

I think the P45 Plus is your ticket with the 1 hour exposure time. The P40+ is interesting and actually glad that option is out there and obviously they are using there technology from the P65 which cost wise for them maybe the ideal path. It is obviously a lot cheaper to order say 20k sensors and have say 10k cut to the 1.3 crop and the rest Full Frame. So from Phase this makes a lot of sense and I would some what expect to see the P65 drop in price some. In truth the actually have 3 backs with Kodak and the long exposure and 2 Dalsa with more speed in mind obviously more going for them both but this maybe a great diverse setup for the overall and the users. What they ned to be doing right now is work on the new body and get some of those promised lenses out the door and into our hands. Also if they do come with another back it is time to change the chassis and include the bigger LCD. Right now my big vote is for a new body by September deadline if not sooner. If you are already a Phase shooter with back in hand this is our biggest issue. Also if Phase has it together to gain market share or get more of it have this body before the S2 comes out. Ya i am a prick. LOL
But i love good competition among them because we win.

 

[hcubell]

Last I heard Peter at PMA and was not pleased with the talk at ALL was leica was thinking of doing there own software. Which turned me off instantly and said so to every Leica person standing within ear shot and I am not a quiet person. Now who knows this maybe all speculation on there part BUT if there thinking it than that is not good. The issue is getting up to speed and software like we all know takes years to get it solid and stable . Like Hassy , leaf , Phase and Sinar there software has been around and many changes along the way. Again guinea pig comes to mind here just like firmware this stuff takes time to work it all out and anyone saying it is solid on release is walking down a very very narrow minded path.

This is not at all surprising. Perhaps no one noticed, but AFAIK Phase has closed out its Capture One software to ALL medium format digital backs other than Phase. I guess that's one "option" that Phase does not think is a good idea. :ROTFL:

 

[Guy Mancuso]

This is NOT a Phase decision but Leica .

 

[Guy Mancuso]

This is not at all surprising. Perhaps no one noticed, but AFAIK Phase has closed out its Capture One software to ALL medium format digital backs other than Phase. I guess that's one "option" that Phase does not think is a good idea. :ROTFL:

On the same token Sinar, Leaf and Hassy you can only use there camera. No Nikon,Canon etc etc etc. Even worse

 

[dougpeterson]

This is not at all surprising. Perhaps no one noticed, but AFAIK Phase has closed out its Capture One software to ALL medium format digital backs other than Phase. I guess that's one "option" that Phase does not think is a good idea. :ROTFL:

FYI C1 Pro supports the Mamiya ZD.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up

 

[Anders_HK]

Hi Peter,

I was in similar shoes as you early last year, by choosing between Leaf and Phase One.

Two general aspects to consider are:

1) Dealers and support in your area.

2) Price (and indeed price in your area).

Price led me to look at the 44x33mm sized 28MP sensors, the Aptus 65 and P30 (P30+ was overpriced). Those backs were cheaper refurbished than the 48x36mm 22MP sensors (Aptus 22 and P25)! I received very good replies of Leaf versus Phase One here http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=22701&hl=

My choice was Leaf Aptus 65 (new unit) and I remain happy with it. I do prefer the rendering of Leaf more. For processing I use CS4 and colors are already at a pleasing departure point when I open at defaults. I also like the rendering of Leaf more than P1, but as have been stated that is personal.

As far as ...

1) battery under the unit, it makes simple to change and makes me take it off when ever put it in bag.

2) fan system, it keeps the back cooler in heat.

3) the display is large and I have no issues with it being faded out in sun, at least not any issue that I cannot deal with. Why look at display with strong light shining on it?

4) the display is LARGE :thumbup:

4) weather seal? I do not need more than the Leaf provides.

Photography is my serious hobby when on travels and living in different countries, primarily landscapes and people living traditional lives. The big display is a pleasure to show people the photo I have just taken of them. With much travels the Leaf still is built like a tank. Nope, I do not bake it, freeze it down, drop if from baloons or park a car on it. Not sure why a digital back need to built to such as is shown in Phase One ads.... My Leaf has been to India, Sweden, Korea, Hong Kong, China, Philippines and more...

Apart from the price in my area, major negs with the Phase One was its display and that it is tied to Capture One. That was unacceptable to me. I think I read that you can now use CS4, but you better check on that. With the Leaf there are more processors you can use.

Primarily, it is the first digital product that I feel very content with, been through ZD, D200, D50 and numerous compacts. Ignoring pixels, none of them came close to the rendering of my Aptus. It does not beat slides in my Mamiya 7, but those are simply different and still a joy :angel:.

Regards
Anders

 

[ptomsu]

Anders,

it finally will be a price question. But for the moment the price difference between the Mamiya system (28/80/150) with Leaf Aptus II-7 and the Phase system (28/80/150) with P45+ is some €900.- cheaper for the Leaf solution.

In the price range of €20.000.- I call this noise, not more. If I can negotiate a price difference of at last 2k€ or get the Leaf Aptus II-10 for the same price as the Phase system, then things get completely different.

And believe me I did not even start negotiating prices, just the first 2 offer. Wait till I start with the dealers, they will show some flexibility I know how to do this!

On the other side - as I said - I am dooming Leica and their S system, mainly because of my bad experiences with tat company. But honestly, the S system gets more and more interesting, as I start seeing my real needs. Which is 40MP, stellar lenses, compact as possible to carry easily around and the removable back is kind of a no brainer for me, as I will not use the back on a separate tech camera (too heavy and bulky for my needs) and in case I need another back I simply buy another S2 or later S3, as the camera is not the price, it is the sensor and electronics.

The biggest question mark for me is SW and I must say I love C1 and if Leica uses a different (self developed) SW then it would be totally out of the game.

There will be obviously some interesting months to come over summer, so for th back dealers, keep making me great offers, so I get convinced and jump on a solution, before Leica can catch me again :thumbup: