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Thread: Phase One P40 Plus back

  1. #51
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    Re: Phase One P40 Plus back

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Not for me it doesn't... I want my back to mount TIGHT to the body with zero slop and most importantly, I want it to be PERFECTLY parallel to the lens projection plane! I am of the opinion that any mount I can change myself, as in right now without tools, simply cannot be made to the tolerances to keep it both tight and perfectly parallel, especially since now it has two separate mounting methodologies to deal with; one for the back to the camera and the other for the camera-specific adapter mount plate to the back. A better chance to experience additive tolerance error...

    But then I'm not a mechanical engineer, just a stupid photographer... Oh wait, maybe that's the problem with allowing me to swap out precision mounts!
    Jack the issue regarding 'prefect fit' is separate to the issue of calling backs 'open' or not - true?

    regarding perfect fit - have had no problems so far with the Sinar changing adapter routine - three screws and they supply the crew drivers..

    Mind you I am no mechanical engineer either - I just a have double honours in pure and applied mathematics - which equipped me for absolutely nothing in the real world- oh except for one thing - larfing my head off when I read internet goobledegok about digi chips.

  2. #52
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    Re: Phase One P40 Plus back

    See specification chart - I like the temperature conversions - is this something to do with global warming?

    [It is so easy to take cheap shots I know - but I could not help it...]

    Maybe I should hold off my P45+ purchase for a while longer...

    Cheers,

    John

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    Re: Phase One P40 Plus back

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnH View Post
    See specification chart - I like the temperature conversions - is this something to do with global warming?
    Give the Danes a break, they have never experienced anything as high as 40C ! 104 or 122 so what

    Cheers, -Peter

  4. #54
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    Re: Phase One P40 Plus back

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterL View Post
    Give the Danes a break, they have never experienced anything as high as 40C ! 104 or 122 so what

    Cheers, -Peter
    Now, now! We travel!

    ...just not with a P40+ obviously

    Anders

  5. #55
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    Re: Phase One P45 Plus back

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    I was a programmer for a vibration analysis company before and during college and I'm a pretty big nerd in general so I am intimately familiar with signal-to-noise. I agree that this is the sole determinant of DR as measured scientifically. By no means however is this the end of the story for those who are interested in the final image.

    Most people mean DR as "how much of the scene's shadows and highlights I can put on paper (or into web pixels or whatever)". In this practical context the ability for the software to reach into the recorded signal and render out meaningful, color accurate, and detailed information is as much a part of the equation as anything else. One huge example is the black-cal file (taken even at short shutter speeds) which isolates the quantity and type of noise on the sensor in order to suppress it during processing. Only Phase One software can access that black-cal file and that information helps reduce shadow noise (also helps lengthen the max exposure times) with minimal lose of real data.

    I imagine you and I can have a very informed and excruciatingly technical conversation about the theoretical or scientifically measured DR of various digital backs and cameras. Provided that someone wants to shoot line charts, step patterns then that conversation would prove meaningful. For practical applications however the software, the type of noise, the color accuracy of shadows, and the ease of playing with the reproduced DR of the file are all important.

    If this discussion seems overly technical to some then here is the summary:
    If you shoot a difficult scene with a D3X and a Phase Back* and handle each well you will get more detail out of the highlights and shadows with the Phase back, and the quality/texture/aesthetics/feel of those shadows and highlights is judged by most as being more pleasing/natural and less "digital".

    *Again I'm not claiming Phase is the only brand for which this is true; I just prefer to make claims that I have personally verified.

    Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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    Doug, help me here.

    Getting info from highlights and shadows is NOT extrapolation, is it?

    255 255 255 is 8bit processing. PS H/S simply goes into the 16bit level and raises the detail into the 8bit level with non linear processing (much as the Leica M8 gets 12 stop DR from 8bits, except with a 16bit sensor, its is just ALL there.

    SO, if I see a washed out sky, and then use HLT recover, and all of a sudden I see the clouds, blue sky etc, that can hardly be 'extrapolation' it is simply bringing lower bits to the higher level of 8 bit screen and then you see it.
    to make it save in 16 bits it is just non liearly saves

    BTW non linear simply means 2>1 4>2 8>3 as an example in logrythmic processing.

    Bottom line, both the SLRs and Back can have real info
    its just, well, as bob pointed out, how good it looks in the final files.

    Victor

  6. #56
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    Re: Phase One P40 Plus back

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    .... crew drivers..(sic!)

    Mind you I am no mechanical engineer either - I just a have double honours in pure and applied mathematics - which equipped me for absolutely nothing in the real world- oh except for one thing - larfing my head off when I read internet goobledegok about digi chips.
    So, haven't found a use for Sheaf Theory?

    Actually, if you consider a sensor a topological space and each pixels' bits an abelian group....

    NAHHHHHHHHHHH

    best regards
    Victor

    PS: P65+ lookin' good on my Contax
    . Now I just need time to take some SHOTS

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    Re: Phase One P45 Plus back

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Caulfeild-Browne View Post
    Well, I don't have a D3X nor a P65+, but I do have Sony a900 and a P45+. There is NO and I mean NO comparison when it comes to DR, clarity and what I call immediacy. The P45+ is simply better.
    Being in a budget crunch, but wanting something higher resolution than an M8, I am considering either an older MFDB for my Contax 645, perhaps something like a Kodak Pro 645, or going for the Sony A900. Does your worlds-of-difference judgement also hold for older 12-bit 16MP backs, or is the difference there less?

    Victor, if you want, send the P65+ here and I will take it for walks for you I also have a Contax 645, so it would feel right at home
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: Phase One P40 Plus back

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Jack the issue regarding 'prefect fit' is separate to the issue of calling backs 'open' or not - true?

    regarding perfect fit - have had no problems so far with the Sinar changing adapter routine - three screws and they supply the crew drivers..

    Mind you I am no mechanical engineer either - I just a have double honours in pure and applied mathematics - which equipped me for absolutely nothing in the real world- oh except for one thing - larfing my head off when I read internet goobledegok about digi chips.
    Pete:

    I guess the difference is I just don't trust whoever machines the adapter plates

    As for math being your major --- it was my course of study too. That is until I got into the theory class where we had to prove Cantor's "infinite number of infinities." After that lecture, I folded up my book full of notes, walked out of the class, changed my major and never returned to math class.

    And the reality is that in my entire professional life I've never needed more math than up to basic calculus, and moreover, never really even needed that once I learned how to use Excel!
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Re: Phase One P45 Plus back

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Being in a budget crunch, but wanting something higher resolution than an M8, I am considering either an older MFDB for my Contax 645, perhaps something like a Kodak Pro 645, or going for the Sony A900. Does your worlds-of-difference judgement also hold for older 12-bit 16MP backs, or is the difference there less?
    The Phase One H and P series digital backs all use 16-bit A/D convertors. The P series uses a more modern, tighter spec'd model and the + series uses a slightly better data path (but I'll be the first to say the real-world difference + to non plus at base ISO, short exposure, is negligible).

    So a P20 (16 megapixel square) or P21 (18 megapixel rectangle) would both maintain the "world of difference" statement. The H20 (16mp square) and H25 (22mp rect) are both phenomenal and ignoring workflow/speed I would rather have a good raw file from an H20 than from a good raw file from a 1Ds III, but won't outshine it as thoroughly as the P series backs.

    Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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    Re: Phase One P45 Plus back

    Quote Originally Posted by gogopix View Post
    Doug, help me here.

    Getting info from highlights and shadows is NOT extrapolation, is it?

    [...]

    Bottom line, both the SLRs and Back can have real info
    its just, well, as bob pointed out, how good it looks in the final files.

    Victor
    Correct. It is interpolation. Software can only draw detail out of areas of the raw file where light levels are below the maximum capacity of the sensor. So you can't extrapolate past the maximum what was recorded. Better software can make better use of less real data, but you always must have SOME real data.

    Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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    Re: Phase One P40 Plus back

    The P20 and P21 images I have seen are pretty damn nice. I think it uses the same sensor as my old P25 Plus. Can't beat that with a stick
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Phase One P45 Plus back

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    The Phase One H and P series digital backs all use 16-bit A/D convertors. The P series uses a more modern, tighter spec'd model and the + series uses a slightly better data path (but I'll be the first to say the real-world difference + to non plus at base ISO, short exposure, is negligible).
    The H backs don't have monitors, do they? I would want something portable. But realistically, I don't expect any of the backs you mention to come it at around €3000-3500, which is my max hypothetical budget if I can sell my Leica WATE for a decent price. And if I were to buy from you, which I would love to do, then I would also pay import fees plus VAT, another 25% or so in total, thus removing it even further from the realm of the possible. Even if the back was cheap enough to do all this at that price, I would still need (for the H, since I presume the P is out of the question) some kind of drive/screen thing to view the images as I take them, if that even exists for this back. And do they work with Mac OS X Leopard?

    I kinda feel that the A900 is about all I can scrape together for for many months. The Kodak is about the only back I have seen which comes in at my budget, possibly except for some of the older Ixpress backs. Phases are still expensive, even used, and I think my honorary Danish status doesn't get me a break there Tight year with the crisis.
    Carsten - Website

  13. #63
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    Re: Phase One P45 Plus back

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    The H backs don't have monitors, do they? I would want something portable. But realistically, I don't expect any of the backs you mention to come it at around 3000-3500, which is my max hypothetical budget if I can sell my Leica WATE for a decent price. And if I were to buy from you, which I would love to do, then I would also pay import fees plus VAT, another 25% or so in total, thus removing it even further from the realm of the possible. Even if the back was cheap enough to do all this at that price, I would still need (for the H, since I presume the P is out of the question) some kind of drive/screen thing to view the images as I take them, if that even exists for this back. And do they work with Mac OS X Leopard?

    I kinda feel that the A900 is about all I can scrape together for for many months. The Kodak is about the only back I have seen which comes in at my budget, possibly except for some of the older Ixpress backs. Phases are still expensive, even used, and I think my honorary Danish status doesn't get me a break there Tight year with the crisis.
    The Kodak is even better than you think, yes its slow compared to the newer backs but IQ is wonderful and so are the colors and contrast. I have two and never parting with them in spite of owning several other current, higher spec'd digital backs. FYI I use them with a Contax 645.

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    Re: Phase One P40 Plus back

    Do you still use them, even with newer backs??? What for?
    Carsten - Website

  15. #65
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    Re: Phase One P40 Plus back

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Do you still use them, even with newer backs??? What for?
    Primarily I shoot people so rendering and look are a lot more important to me than ultimate resolution, which I sometimes have to fight with my new backs. Kodak files have their own look and feel which are very different to the Leaf and Phase ones, the lower rez and its specific tonal range are complimentary for portrait work. This might not make sense to an architectural or landscape shooter but portrait photographers will sympathize. The square format is nice to use too at times.

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    Re: Phase One P40 Plus back

    I love the square format, and if a larger back was available, I would probably be buying a 203FE and selling the Contax, but given my options, the Contax is a better solution. I would rather own a 22MP 36x48 back than a 36x36 square, but I have to see what I can afford. I am selling my WATE, and am considering selling my 35 Lux ASPH, which I never liked as much as the 50 Lux ASPH. Hard decision though, because I use it more than my other lenses. Maybe I'll replace it with a much more affordable 35/2 IV or the new Summarit. Anyway, that will raise some money to open up some options.
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: Phase One P40 Plus back

    The DCS proback was stellar, at least at low ISO. 37x37 square with 9u sensuls... I often think about picking one up since I already have a spare Mamiya AFD body and it would make for a second complete system...
    Jack
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    Re: Phase One P40 Plus back

    I used a Kodak Proback 645M for quite some time---it was (and still is) a great MFDB for portraiture. The Custom Looks module by kodak (extra) was excellent---basically the same type of different profiles at a mouse click----something that C1 Pro is just now getting....

  19. #69
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    Re: Phase One P40 Plus back

    Quote Originally Posted by kdphotography View Post
    I used a Kodak Proback 645M for quite some time---it was (and still is) a great MFDB for portraiture. The Custom Looks module by kodak (extra) was excellent---basically the same type of different profiles at a mouse click----something that C1 Pro is just now getting....
    And unlike Leaf's or C1's profiles/looks they're useable and easy to comprehend!

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    Re: Phase One P40 Plus back

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    ... I would rather own a 22MP 36x48 back than a 36x36 square, but I have to see what I can afford...
    Before I got my back I was evaluating the Hassy CFV-back. Today I am glad I have the larger/wider sensor. And you can allways crop to square. (Even though I have seen some very nice images from the cfv here)

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    Re: Phase One P40 Plus back

    The CFV is also very attractive, but way over-priced. The only way it makes sense is as the kit with the 40 CF IF, but that is a lot of dosh to hand over. In general I find Hasselblad's CFV/CFVII/CF line very over-priced, almost as if Hasselblad doesn't want anyone buying them.
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: Phase One P40 Plus back

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    The CFV is also very attractive, but way over-priced. The only way it makes sense is as the kit with the 40 CF IF, but that is a lot of dosh to hand over. In general I find Hasselblad's CFV/CFVII/CF line very over-priced, almost as if Hasselblad doesn't want anyone buying them.
    I agree - plus you pay a lot for a wide lens (40 CF IF) without being able to use it as a wide lens.

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