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Phase One P40 Plus back

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Re: P40+?

Well I did not say that myself and I agree it may not be , things have tightened up recently with some of the newer DSLR's. But including your Sinar Graham or leaf, Hassy or Phase we just never seen anything less than 12 stops. They all produce very very good DR and one main reason we all went down this path.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Re: P40+?

Here is some data from CI

Phase One P40+: Speeding Up the Game
Spec Sheet
Download the Spec Sheet http://www.captureintegration.com/wp-content/uploads/po_datasheet_p40plus_highres.pdf

The Sensor
Like the P65+ the P40+ is the result of direct cooperation of a digital back manufacturer and a sensor manufacturer. Phase One worked closely with Dalsa to develop the technology that makes these two backs the most advanced digital backs in the world. The sensor measures 43.9mm x 32.9mm producing a 7320 x 5484 pixel file with true 16 bit depth.

Speed
At 40 megapixels the P40+ can shoot a blazing 1.4 frames per second. Need to shoot faster? Turn on Sensor+ and the P40+ can capture 1.8 frames per second at 10 megapixels. Just as important, this speed is maintained without a buffer, so unlike a dSLR the shooting does slow down during heavy continuous shooting.

Resolution
At 40 megapixels the P40+ provides enough resolution to print nearly any size and to crop heavily and still produce high quality images.

The Best Dynamic Range
The P40+ packs the same jaw dropping 12.5 stops of dynamic range as the flagship P65+, the highest dynamic range in medium format digital (and light years ahead of any dSLRs). This is perhaps the greatest accomplishment of the technology behind the the new Dalsa produced, Phase One patented sensors.

ISO
In full resolution mode the P40+ offers ISO 50-800 with results at ISO 800 that you have to see to believe. Shooting with Sensor+ mode enabled increases the back’s sensitivity two stops without increasing noise to an ISO range of 200-3200. Furthermore the type of noise from this back is more akin to film grain than the ugly noise from many dSLRs. Head over to our Tests page to see a full resolution ISO800 image to judge for yourself.

Open Platform
The P40+ is a continuation of Phase One’s commitment to keep medium format solutions open rather than closed. The P40+ will be produced in all of the current mounts including Contax, Hasselblad V, Hasselblad H, Rollei 6000, and Mamiya/Phase-One, and solutions will be provided for nearly all view cameras and technical cameras (see next paragraph).

Less Prone to Lens Cast and Moire
Using the same 6 micron technology as the the P65+ the P40+ decreases the effect of lens cast even at extreme lens angles and greatly reduces the occurrence of moire. This makes it the ideal flexible solution for photographers using view cameras, technical cameras, or tilt/shift lenses._

Pricing
Prices start at $19,990, call for details. Upgrade pricing is available from any Phase One product and trade-ups are available from dSLRs and competitors’ digital backs.

Availability
The P40+ is already shipping! However, demand is expected to be strong, so order before the first batch is sold out.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Re: P40+?

I always liked the chart comparing the different backs. Check this out big buffer on the new back
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Re: P40+?

Just looking at the chart the P30 + has the highest ISO at full megapixels ISO 1600. I find that pretty interesting.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Re: P40+?

I think this tells the whole story this page here. Also going to change the title of this thread to make it the official thread. sound good
 
D

ddk

Guest
Re: P40+?

Here is some data from CI

Speed
At 40 megapixels the P40+ can shoot a blazing 1.4 frames per second. Need to shoot faster? Turn on Sensor+ and the P40+ can capture 1.8 frames per second at 10 megapixels. Just as important, this speed is maintained without a buffer, so unlike a dSLR the shooting does slow down during heavy continuous shooting.
Is this a typo? Does it slow down or not under heavy continuous shooting?
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Re: Phase One P45 Plus back

Just guessing here David but maybe with the increased buffer size it never bottoms out. The chart say 1.3gb High Speed ram so maybe it can catch up to any continuous shooting. Even the P25 + I never ran into a buffer.
 
J

jmvdigital

Guest
Re: Phase One P45 Plus back

Someone has a typo. In the CI specs Guy posted above, it states a 1.4 frames/sec at full resolution, and in the first comparison spec sheet from Phase, it says 1.2.

Doesn't matter one bit to me, but it caught my eye anyway.

Is 0.4 captures/sec faster worth a "all about speed" marketing title over the P30+? Seems like splitting hairs. Sure, that's 50% faster technically, but in the real world, is that speed even noticeable? That's like from now to now, nowtonow, nowNOW, now. :)
 
D

ddk

Guest
Re: Phase One P45 Plus back

Just guessing here David but maybe with the increased buffer size it never bottoms out. The chart say 1.3gb High Speed ram so maybe it can catch up to any continuous shooting. Even the P25 + I never ran into a buffer.
The 25+ is pretty slow in comparison, so I don't think that its capture rate creates a bottleneck. 1.3 gb buffer sounds like a lot but I remember that my kodak slr/n had 512mb buffer 6 years ago and its file sizes were pretty small. I guess we have to wait and see what real life figures produce.
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
Re: P40+?

Is this a typo? Does it slow down or not under heavy continuous shooting?
It was a typo. Correction reads:
At 40 megapixels the P40+ can shoot a blazing 1.4 frames per second. Need to shoot faster? Turn on Sensor+ and the P40+ can capture 1.8 frames per second at 10 megapixels. Just as important, this speed is not heavily dependent on a buffer, so unlike a dSLR the P40+ does not slow down during heavy continuous shooting.

As an example check out this chart on P30+ vs. 1Ds III tethered shooting. This chart is a bit outdated since Apple greatly increased the speed of their USB drivers, and the P40+ is spec'd much faster than the P30+ but the basic concept remains true; the dSLRs are amazingly fast when shooting into the buffer but if you hit the buffer limit they will drive you crazy. I am not saying either system is always better; some people will prefer the ability to rifle off several off several shots in one second, others will prefer the incredible speed consistency of a P+ back, especially now that the wait time is a fraction of a second.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
Re: Phase One P45 Plus back

Someone has a typo. In the CI specs Guy posted above, it states a 1.4 frames/sec at full resolution, and in the first comparison spec sheet from Phase, it says 1.2.

Doesn't matter one bit to me, but it caught my eye anyway.

Is 0.4 captures/sec faster worth a "all about speed" marketing title over the P30+? Seems like splitting hairs. Sure, that's 50% faster technically, but in the real world, is that speed even noticeable? That's like from now to now, nowtonow, nowNOW, now. :)
Yikes; sorry for any confusion. We were posting these late at night after a long day :eek:.

I hope with a long history of posting here that I have a reputation of honesty. So I will answer your question frankly: YES the speed is a big deal. The wait time shot-to-shot is about 0.83 seconds rather than 1.5 seconds for the P45+ (same resolution) or 1.25 seconds for the P30+ (somewhat same target market). For certain applications a wait time of 0.56 seconds at 10 megapixels will be even more helpful.

What's often misrepresented here is that the appropriate comparison for high ISO and speed is NOT dSLRs; it is other digital backs. If the speed and high ISO of digital backs is not enough for you (e.g. you shoot mostly sports or reportage) then you won't be looking at digital backs at all and the difference between backs won't matter. The faster speed and high ISO performance of any given digital back answers the question "which digital back" more than it answers "digital back or dSLR".

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
Re: Phase One P45 Plus back

The 25+ is pretty slow in comparison, so I don't think that its capture rate creates a bottleneck. 1.3 gb buffer sounds like a lot but I remember that my kodak slr/n had 512mb buffer 6 years ago and its file sizes were pretty small. I guess we have to wait and see what real life figures produce.
We WILL have to wait and see real life figures. I don't want anyone to misunderstand; we have not had a P40+ to test because Phase has (I think wisely) decided to play more like Apple and announce a product only when it's finished, fit, and ready to ship.

However, the speed of a back is more about the read-off-of-sensor, internal processing and write-to-CF speed than about the buffer. In other words, most of the time the entire image will be written to card before the next shot is taken; it is very hard to hit the buffer in real life shooting with a P30+ (the closest equivalent I actually have in-hand today) assuming you have an Extreme IV CF card or a fast computer for tethering.

When I have one to test (or when Guy does) we'll confirm that this basic premise of P+ backs has remained true.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
Re: Phase One P45 Plus back

(and light years ahead of any dSLRs) LOL
Doug, thanks for posting those samples.

Sorry to nitpick but on that page it is written:
"The P40+ packs the same jaw dropping 12.5 stops of dynamic range as the flagship P65+, the highest dynamic range in medium format digital (and light years ahead of any dSLRs)."

But...the Nikon D3X seems to have over 13 stops as well as some others:
http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/eng/DxOMark-Sensor/(appareil)/D3X/(metrics)/
I'm a pretty technically savvy guy and I can't tell you what is up with DxOMark's tests. What I can tell you is that if you shoot a D3x and a P65+ side by side and them process them in a variety of different programs the amount of shadow and highlight detail which can be rendered is not similar; the P65+ wins hands down. There is no reason to take my word or DxOMark's word for it however; either
1) ask the opinion of any of the many users on this forum (many already have their P65+).
2) come to one of Guy/Jacks' workshops where a variety of backs/dSLRs are on hand and everyone is happy to share/loan gear.
3) come to our studio (for free) in ATL or Miami or a similar company in many other cities and shoot them for yourself; we'll even buy you lunch and/or take you to a nearby scenic area
4) pay to rent a system to compare on your own turf. Many companies (including mine) will rent a digital back for the purpose of testing for a large discount of the list rental price (usually you have to agree to rent at a time which is not busy - like over the weekend)

One more note on that; DR is a multi faceted term. One area which is hard to numerically represent (and harder to find an independent party with access to the gear to do so) is color accuracy in the shadows and the TYPE of noise/grain generated. One of the shocking things about playing with a Phase One raw file (and to be fair probably a raw file from any of the best digital backs, but my experience is with Phase and C1 processing is really really good) is just how accurate the colors are when you pull up a shadow which was previously completely blocked up, and just how natural looking the grain/noise is.

Re: foto-z (that rhymes): before Capture One 4.X was released there was no highlight/shadow recovery tool which made accessing the dynamic range of the back difficult. A large part of this IS the software, so I wonder (but have no personal knowledge) if the Sinar file contains more information than you can easily access. I say this because having shot every high end dSLR and most of Phase's lineup I'm very surprised to hear you say that about your Sinar, but I'm happy to admit that I know the least about Sinar of any camera/back system. One way of testing this is to under or over expose two stops and correct in the software to see what detail you get. In C13 you would have needed to process an image once normally and once with a two stop pull and combine in PS to access the highlight detail that was in the file. Now you can simply pull the highlight/shadow slider down in C14. The same file placed in ACR or LR yields less usable highlight/shadow recovery than in C14; likely because some very very smart PHDs at P1 spend literally hundreds of hours tweaking the processing math for each digital back and also have a direct line of communication (and share lunch/beer) with the guys who design/implement the hardware.

It is my personal phrase "light years ahead" and I admit it's a bit marketing oriented (mind you everyone this is our "product page"). However, one thing about dynamic range is that the difference of half a stop or a stop of dynamic range is the difference between a cheek which has tone and a cheek which is pure-white, or a wedding dress which still has textural detail or a wedding dress which is just pure-white. So in difficult situations a little more DR means a LOT less work in post-production.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up
 

LJL

New member
Guy,
The P40+ and the P30+ are actually sporting the same ISO range, just having the P30+ tuned to a base ISO of 100 rather than the ISO 50 of the P40+. Then there is the Sensor+ technology above that, which interests some more than others.

The P40+ looks like an interesting option, but I do not think you will have too much trouble with your P30+, which I thought was the way you should have gone from the start ;-)

LJ
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Yes I am happy with the P30+. The P40+ does add the speed for sure on shooting and some more mpx. I'm not doing anything now but it is a option down the road. I would like to test the 2 side by side and see what we come up with on both of them. Be a good test since they are exactly the same crop factor and it is a matter of just switching backs which makes a comparison much more accurate. Just lock it all down and switch backs. Need to get my body out the door and get the firmware updated first though. I think 1.5 is the latest. I'm at 1. Scary lol
 

Dale Allyn

New member
So it looks like they've prepared a "slot" for a P50+ in all of this too; a 1.1 lens factor back. Or am I just spokin' a different brand of crack?

As a mostly landscape guy (with MFDB anyway), I'm enjoying my lowly P25+ and would step to a P45+ for larger prints. But a "P50+" would get my attention if it were considerably less than a P65+. I'd need to reconcile the exposure limit of one minute though, however I rarely need longer than one minute.

It's good to see development in the space, regardless of personal wants and needs in the details or specs (i.e. a better LCD would be nice, but no biggie to me).
 

Graham Mitchell

New member
Re: Phase One P45 Plus back

One more note on that; DR is a multi faceted term. One area which is hard to numerically represent (and harder to find an independent party with access to the gear to do so) is color accuracy in the shadows and the TYPE of noise/grain generated.
Hi Doug, DR is very clearly defined. It is the ratio between the lowest and highest signal which can be captured before clipping occurs. *If* a Nikon can do that for 13 stops then it has a greater DR, case closed.

It is not an indication of image quality and I believe that the digital backs may still have the edge there (I haven't used a D3X so I can't compare). Colour accuracy isn't relevant to DR - only luminance.

You wrote: "there was no highlight/shadow recovery tool which made accessing the dynamic range of the back difficult. " Recovered highlights are not part of the DR of the back. It is not real data, but just an intelligent extrapolation of the blown out channel based on the other channels. Clever stuff and very useful, but it's not part of the DR of the back :)

Btw, I also have had great success in pushing shadows from the Sinar files. One of the nice things about an MFDB :thumbup:
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
Re: Phase One P45 Plus back

Hi Doug, DR is very clearly defined. It is the ratio between the lowest and highest signal which can be captured before clipping occurs. *If* a Nikon can do that for 13 stops then it has a greater DR, case closed.

It is not an indication of image quality and I believe that the digital backs may still have the edge there (I haven't used a D3X so I can't compare). Colour accuracy isn't relevant to DR - only luminance.

You wrote: "there was no highlight/shadow recovery tool which made accessing the dynamic range of the back difficult. " Recovered highlights are not part of the DR of the back. It is not real data, but just an intelligent extrapolation of the blown out channel based on the other channels. Clever stuff and very useful, but it's not part of the DR of the back :)

Btw, I also have had great success in pushing shadows from the Sinar files. One of the nice things about an MFDB :thumbup:
I was a programmer for a vibration analysis company before and during college and I'm a pretty big nerd in general so I am intimately familiar with signal-to-noise. I agree that this is the sole determinant of DR as measured scientifically. By no means however is this the end of the story for those who are interested in the final image.

Most people mean DR as "how much of the scene's shadows and highlights I can put on paper (or into web pixels or whatever)". In this practical context the ability for the software to reach into the recorded signal and render out meaningful, color accurate, and detailed information is as much a part of the equation as anything else. One huge example is the black-cal file (taken even at short shutter speeds) which isolates the quantity and type of noise on the sensor in order to suppress it during processing. Only Phase One software can access that black-cal file and that information helps reduce shadow noise (also helps lengthen the max exposure times) with minimal lose of real data.

I imagine you and I can have a very informed and excruciatingly technical conversation about the theoretical or scientifically measured DR of various digital backs and cameras. Provided that someone wants to shoot line charts, step patterns then that conversation would prove meaningful. For practical applications however the software, the type of noise, the color accuracy of shadows, and the ease of playing with the reproduced DR of the file are all important.

If this discussion seems overly technical to some then here is the summary:
If you shoot a difficult scene with a D3X and a Phase Back* and handle each well you will get more detail out of the highlights and shadows with the Phase back, and the quality/texture/aesthetics/feel of those shadows and highlights is judged by most as being more pleasing/natural and less "digital".

*Again I'm not claiming Phase is the only brand for which this is true; I just prefer to make claims that I have personally verified.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
Folks,

I am sorry, but I think it is really ridiculous to compare a D3X with any MFDB! These are no serious comparisons.

Simple physical constraints for DSLR size FF sensors compared to MFDBs.

But I have some general issues with the P40+

I would like to understand, why Phase makes these kind of product decisions like developing a P40+ back. Although I understand that they are proud of this development, for me this is an absolutely uninteresting product, as it comes with a 1.3 crop which I do not like for my work and which would never bring me to buy into a digital MF system. I cannot think that too many photographers are really looking for this, but who knows, obviously Phase marketing and PM will know better I hope.

To be honest I would have gone rather for a kind of P50+ with the same sensor architecture but crop 1.1 and an interesting price in the area a bit above (not too much) of the current P45+

At least for me this would have been very appealing and think not only for me :angel:
 
Last edited:

Graham Mitchell

New member
Doug, I would not waste my time in these discussions, they are just meaningless and show only pure ignorance from the people starting them again and again.
Apparently you didn't read the thread (speaking of ignorance). It started with a statement on Doug's website comparing Phase backs with DSLRs. Oh the irony... :ROTFL:
 
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