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Thread: Phase One P40 Plus back

  1. #1
    jmvdigital
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    Phase One P40 Plus back

    Did I miss something?

    From a Luminous Landscape RSS feed...

    "Several dealers let the cat out of the bag a couple of days ago (tsk, tsk) but Phase One has today officially announced, and has available for immediate delivery, their latest medium format back, the P40+ with Sensor+. This is a 40 Megapixel back."

    I can't find any info on here or on Phase's site.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: P40+?

    No, you didn't miss anything. It's official. Judging by the thread on LL most people are underwhelmed by this back. I guess they were hoping for a giant leap forward and it is basically "only" an incremental upgrade over the P30+. Same sensor size and LCD size as the P30+. Faster frame rate, a bt more resolution, and greater ability to be used on view cameras.

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    Senior Member kdphotography's Avatar
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    Re: P40+?

    You would think people could hold judgment a bit until the digital back actually hits the pavement and is in somebody's hands to test..... The LL thread seemed pretty negative (prematurely) to me.....

  4. #4
    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: P40+?

    Quote Originally Posted by kdphotography View Post
    You would think people could hold judgment a bit until the digital back actually hits the pavement and is in somebody's hands to test..... The LL thread seemed pretty negative (prematurely) to me.....
    The performance doesn't seem to be the issue. No-one has any reason to think it will perform differently to Phase's other backs. it is the specifications which is the problem for some people.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: P40+?

    Just waiting for Doug to send the official press release over to post , than we should have ALL the details. Too me it just gives us another back option like it or not it does serve a need for some shooters.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  6. #6
    Alexander Bauer
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    Re: P40+?

    Quote Originally Posted by foto-z View Post
    No, you didn't miss anything. It's official. Judging by the thread on LL most people are underwhelmed by this back. I guess they were hoping for a giant leap forward and it is basically "only" an incremental upgrade over the P30+. Same sensor size and LCD size as the P30+. Faster frame rate, a bt more resolution, and greater ability to be used on view cameras.
    I thought it was Dalsa sensor no long exposure?

    if it is the same sensor, the same features, the same screen then it is the
    same box practically except 9 more million pixels for US$ 20,000.00
    or US$ 19,000.00

    so basically we should all be amazed and go sell/TRADE our stuff to upgrade for what, 9 Million pixels ?

    whats next for Phase One, Cover on the HUSTLER Magazine

  7. #7
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    Re: P40+?

    Well, I don't think that anyone should assume that they are the target market for this back until Phase confirms that. I expect that Phase is aiming this more at P25+ users (and smaller) rather than P30+ users. The back may also well replace the P30+, or the latter may drop in price to compete better with Hasselblad.
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: P40+?

    Quote Originally Posted by foto-z View Post
    No, you didn't miss anything. It's official.
    Just FYI details will be "public" tomorrow and until then the P40+ is supposed to be a secret. Well with two different forums and several photo-new sites already talking about it...

    I'll see you all back here tomorrow after the "official" launch.

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    Re: P40+?

    Given that the cat is out of the bag we've decided to go ahead and post our

    Product Page
    Test Page (includes two full-res files for download)

    Hope our server doesn't crash :-/.

    Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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  10. #10
    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: P40+?

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    Given that the cat is out of the bag we've decided to go ahead and post our

    Product Page
    Doug, thanks for posting those samples.

    Sorry to nitpick but on that page it is written:
    "The P40+ packs the same jaw dropping 12.5 stops of dynamic range as the flagship P65+, the highest dynamic range in medium format digital (and light years ahead of any dSLRs)."

    But...the Nikon D3X seems to have over 13 stops as well as some others:
    http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/eng...D3X/(metrics)/

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    Re: P40+?

    (and light years ahead of any dSLRs) LOL

  12. #12
    Alexander Bauer
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    Re: P40+?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alexander Bauer View Post
    to tell you the truth I'm sick of the past and future MFDB marketing and pricing games
    and all of their software issues.

    I hope they will wake up soon
    I'm sorry but I had to quote myself from another thread here lol...

  13. #13
    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
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    Re: P40+?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alexander Bauer View Post
    I thought it was Dalsa sensor no long exposure?

    if it is the same sensor, the same features, the same screen then it is the
    same box practically except 9 more million pixels for US$ 20,000.00
    or US$ 19,000.00

    so basically we should all be amazed and go sell/TRADE our stuff to upgrade for what, 9 Million pixels ?

    whats next for Phase One, Cover on the HUSTLER Magazine

    Other than the admittedly disappointing LCD screen, I'm having a hard time uinderstanding the modest reaction.

    This product is not aimed at replacing a particular model. It is aimed at anyone who desires faster capture and good high ISO. Other than a P21+ or a P65+, this back is significantly faster than any other Phase One digital back (and most other digital backs as well).

    It's all about speed. If you don't have a need for speed, then maybe you shouldn't consider it. Speed is the headline.

    However, it is the 3rd highest resolution digital back on the market, works well on view cameras, and performs well at high ISO. It also has sensor plus technology, although at 10MP, this will be of limited value to some. And the pricing is below the P45+.

    High resolution digital backs have either been slow capturing or record noisy high ISO images and have cost significantly more than the $19,990 P40+. For those reasons I see this product as establishing a new benchmark for value compared to other digital backs.

    Whether one wishes to upgrade is a personal choice. We put out products that we feel are worthy of consideration if their core features are what you're after.




    Steve Hendrix
    Phase One

  14. #14
    ddk
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    Re: P40+?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix/Phase One View Post
    Other than the admittedly disappointing LCD screen, I'm having a hard time uinderstanding the modest reaction.

    This product is not aimed at replacing a particular model. It is aimed at anyone who desires faster capture and good high ISO. Other than a P21+ or a P65+, this back is significantly faster than any other Phase One digital back (and most other digital backs as well).

    It's all about speed. If you don't have a need for speed, then maybe you shouldn't consider it. Speed is the headline.

    However, it is the 3rd highest resolution digital back on the market, works well on view cameras, and performs well at high ISO. It also has sensor plus technology, although at 10MP, this will be of limited value to some. And the pricing is below the P45+.

    High resolution digital backs have either been slow capturing or record noisy high ISO images and have cost significantly more than the $19,990 P40+. For those reasons I see this product as establishing a new benchmark for value compared to other digital backs.

    Whether one wishes to upgrade is a personal choice. We put out products that we feel are worthy of consideration if their core features are what you're after.




    Steve Hendrix
    Phase One
    I see the speed specs any information on the buffer depth?

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    Re: P40+?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix/Phase One View Post
    Other than the admittedly disappointing LCD screen, I'm having a hard time uinderstanding the modest reaction.
    Steve, what I think we're seeing is pent-up frustration at Phase and/or the MFDB industry bleeding over into this product announcement. IMHO, some folks feel (rightly or wrongly) that they haven't been listened to in one respect or another, and when a new product is announced that doesn't have <insert personal gripe here>, I think you're seeing a reaction to that.

    By "gripes", I refer to oft-mentioned feature requests such as D3X quality & size screen, back-based live view, clean high ISO (high=6400+), long exposure, 'fat' sensels, etc.

    I can't say I agree with all of the gripes, and even for those that resonate with me, I am not surprised that they didn't ALL get fixed with this one new product.

    As I wrote over on L-L, the frustrating pre-announcement problem (also a popular gripe) was addressed this time around, as has the 40-megapixel price point.

    While I think the frustration is very real, I think it being directed at the P40+ is a bit of a red herring.

    Just my 2 cents,
    -Brad

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    Re: P40+?

    Steve,

    Bradley is quite right in his observation.

    Phase will continue to get hammered until that LCD is changed.
    The same happened to Nikon when they could not get a camera out that was able to produce clean images at high ISO. Model after model they got hammered until D3 came out then it all stopped.

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    Re: P40+?

    It was problematic to use bright and big screens because of heat directly behind the (also big and energy-consuming) CCD. But I think that's a problem with the new LED-backlight?

    "But...the Nikon D3X seems to have over 13 stops as well as some others:"

    DXO uses a very... strange way to measure DR. It's not that simple, especially when you manipulate the RAW-data (clean noisy shadows) some guys here with profound understanding of RAW and DR technical-background wrote about it here before, it's worth reading.

    Try a D3 or D3X and compare it to a MFDB and then you will see who has the higher DR...

  18. #18
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: P40+?

    I personally put very little stock in those DXO numbers. To me there just flat out a lot of important data that is not even being measured. I do know when Jack and I tested the P25,45 and 65 Plus backs we did notice more DR as we went up the ladder from each back with the 65 having the biggest range of DR. Not by miles but about 1/3 stop between them. Since the P40 plus is based on that same sensor I would assume ( hoping to test it) that we are looking at the same results as the 65 which was damn powerful in overall DR. Now for me that is reality DR and i would go by those stats more than anything from software. LOL

    I'm sure the D3x must be good but we are in different ball parks here. So personally I just don't buy there results on that. Any MF back is going to have better DR is just my belief.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Administrator Bob's Avatar
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    Re: P40+?

    I love to techno-babble more than most, but the bottom line for me is to look at the files.
    I HATED the D3 files and was not able to get ONE decent image out of the thing.
    The files looked like they had already been screened and offset printed right out of the camera. No noise mind you, but no mojo either.
    Other than some high-key exceptions, every image needs black, and if you raw-convert and sharpen carefully, then my M8 images are all more satisfying than my D3 images.
    THE EXCEPTION BEING:
    When I am shooting in very very low light with moving subjects or hand-held (both somewhat rare for me except for pets and grandchildren). Then it is a matter of getting any image at all, so the 5DII comes out.

    So what is developing is a case of the right hammer for the right screw.
    Technical cameras suck at action, even if the sensor were perfect, but I love them for a lot of applications.
    So unless your initials are KR and you only shoot jpgs, then I am afraid that there are more than one perfect camera depending on the situation.

    Now I believe that it is slowly becoming technically possible for digital backs to get multiple personalities with firmware-driven hardware options such as you are beginning to see with Sensor+; but we are all prisoners of physics, human factors, and imaging situations which dictate choice and variety in our tools.
    -bob

  20. #20
    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: P40+?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I personally put very little stock in those DXO numbers.
    I agree that their analysis might not tell the whole story, and I'm using medium fomat digital myself, but I don't think it is accurate to say a digital back with 12.5 stops of DR is "light years ahead of any dSLRs".

  21. #21
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: P40+?

    Well I did not say that myself and I agree it may not be , things have tightened up recently with some of the newer DSLR's. But including your Sinar Graham or leaf, Hassy or Phase we just never seen anything less than 12 stops. They all produce very very good DR and one main reason we all went down this path.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: P40+?

    Here is some data from CI

    Phase One P40+: Speeding Up the Game
    Spec Sheet
    Download the Spec Sheet http://www.captureintegration.com/wp...us_highres.pdf

    The Sensor
    Like the P65+ the P40+ is the result of direct cooperation of a digital back manufacturer and a sensor manufacturer. Phase One worked closely with Dalsa to develop the technology that makes these two backs the most advanced digital backs in the world. The sensor measures 43.9mm x 32.9mm producing a 7320 x 5484 pixel file with true 16 bit depth.

    Speed
    At 40 megapixels the P40+ can shoot a blazing 1.4 frames per second. Need to shoot faster? Turn on Sensor+ and the P40+ can capture 1.8 frames per second at 10 megapixels. Just as important, this speed is maintained without a buffer, so unlike a dSLR the shooting does slow down during heavy continuous shooting.

    Resolution
    At 40 megapixels the P40+ provides enough resolution to print nearly any size and to crop heavily and still produce high quality images.

    The Best Dynamic Range
    The P40+ packs the same jaw dropping 12.5 stops of dynamic range as the flagship P65+, the highest dynamic range in medium format digital (and light years ahead of any dSLRs). This is perhaps the greatest accomplishment of the technology behind the the new Dalsa produced, Phase One patented sensors.

    ISO
    In full resolution mode the P40+ offers ISO 50-800 with results at ISO 800 that you have to see to believe. Shooting with Sensor+ mode enabled increases the back’s sensitivity two stops without increasing noise to an ISO range of 200-3200. Furthermore the type of noise from this back is more akin to film grain than the ugly noise from many dSLRs. Head over to our Tests page to see a full resolution ISO800 image to judge for yourself.

    Open Platform
    The P40+ is a continuation of Phase One’s commitment to keep medium format solutions open rather than closed. The P40+ will be produced in all of the current mounts including Contax, Hasselblad V, Hasselblad H, Rollei 6000, and Mamiya/Phase-One, and solutions will be provided for nearly all view cameras and technical cameras (see next paragraph).

    Less Prone to Lens Cast and Moire
    Using the same 6 micron technology as the the P65+ the P40+ decreases the effect of lens cast even at extreme lens angles and greatly reduces the occurrence of moire. This makes it the ideal flexible solution for photographers using view cameras, technical cameras, or tilt/shift lenses._

    Pricing
    Prices start at $19,990, call for details. Upgrade pricing is available from any Phase One product and trade-ups are available from dSLRs and competitors’ digital backs.

    Availability
    The P40+ is already shipping! However, demand is expected to be strong, so order before the first batch is sold out.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  23. #23
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: P40+?

    I always liked the chart comparing the different backs. Check this out big buffer on the new back
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: P40+?

    Just looking at the chart the P30 + has the highest ISO at full megapixels ISO 1600. I find that pretty interesting.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: P40+?

    I think this tells the whole story this page here. Also going to change the title of this thread to make it the official thread. sound good
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  26. #26
    ddk
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    Re: P40+?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Here is some data from CI

    Speed
    At 40 megapixels the P40+ can shoot a blazing 1.4 frames per second. Need to shoot faster? Turn on Sensor+ and the P40+ can capture 1.8 frames per second at 10 megapixels. Just as important, this speed is maintained without a buffer, so unlike a dSLR the shooting does slow down during heavy continuous shooting.
    Is this a typo? Does it slow down or not under heavy continuous shooting?

  27. #27
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One P45 Plus back

    Just guessing here David but maybe with the increased buffer size it never bottoms out. The chart say 1.3gb High Speed ram so maybe it can catch up to any continuous shooting. Even the P25 + I never ran into a buffer.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  28. #28
    jmvdigital
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    Re: Phase One P45 Plus back

    Someone has a typo. In the CI specs Guy posted above, it states a 1.4 frames/sec at full resolution, and in the first comparison spec sheet from Phase, it says 1.2.

    Doesn't matter one bit to me, but it caught my eye anyway.

    Is 0.4 captures/sec faster worth a "all about speed" marketing title over the P30+? Seems like splitting hairs. Sure, that's 50% faster technically, but in the real world, is that speed even noticeable? That's like from now to now, nowtonow, nowNOW, now.

  29. #29
    ddk
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    Re: Phase One P45 Plus back

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Just guessing here David but maybe with the increased buffer size it never bottoms out. The chart say 1.3gb High Speed ram so maybe it can catch up to any continuous shooting. Even the P25 + I never ran into a buffer.
    The 25+ is pretty slow in comparison, so I don't think that its capture rate creates a bottleneck. 1.3 gb buffer sounds like a lot but I remember that my kodak slr/n had 512mb buffer 6 years ago and its file sizes were pretty small. I guess we have to wait and see what real life figures produce.

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    Re: P40+?

    Quote Originally Posted by ddk View Post
    Is this a typo? Does it slow down or not under heavy continuous shooting?
    It was a typo. Correction reads:
    At 40 megapixels the P40+ can shoot a blazing 1.4 frames per second. Need to shoot faster? Turn on Sensor+ and the P40+ can capture 1.8 frames per second at 10 megapixels. Just as important, this speed is not heavily dependent on a buffer, so unlike a dSLR the P40+ does not slow down during heavy continuous shooting.

    As an example check out this chart on P30+ vs. 1Ds III tethered shooting. This chart is a bit outdated since Apple greatly increased the speed of their USB drivers, and the P40+ is spec'd much faster than the P30+ but the basic concept remains true; the dSLRs are amazingly fast when shooting into the buffer but if you hit the buffer limit they will drive you crazy. I am not saying either system is always better; some people will prefer the ability to rifle off several off several shots in one second, others will prefer the incredible speed consistency of a P+ back, especially now that the wait time is a fraction of a second.

    Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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    Re: Phase One P45 Plus back

    Quote Originally Posted by jmvdigital View Post
    Someone has a typo. In the CI specs Guy posted above, it states a 1.4 frames/sec at full resolution, and in the first comparison spec sheet from Phase, it says 1.2.

    Doesn't matter one bit to me, but it caught my eye anyway.

    Is 0.4 captures/sec faster worth a "all about speed" marketing title over the P30+? Seems like splitting hairs. Sure, that's 50% faster technically, but in the real world, is that speed even noticeable? That's like from now to now, nowtonow, nowNOW, now.
    Yikes; sorry for any confusion. We were posting these late at night after a long day .

    I hope with a long history of posting here that I have a reputation of honesty. So I will answer your question frankly: YES the speed is a big deal. The wait time shot-to-shot is about 0.83 seconds rather than 1.5 seconds for the P45+ (same resolution) or 1.25 seconds for the P30+ (somewhat same target market). For certain applications a wait time of 0.56 seconds at 10 megapixels will be even more helpful.

    What's often misrepresented here is that the appropriate comparison for high ISO and speed is NOT dSLRs; it is other digital backs. If the speed and high ISO of digital backs is not enough for you (e.g. you shoot mostly sports or reportage) then you won't be looking at digital backs at all and the difference between backs won't matter. The faster speed and high ISO performance of any given digital back answers the question "which digital back" more than it answers "digital back or dSLR".

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    Re: Phase One P45 Plus back

    Quote Originally Posted by ddk View Post
    The 25+ is pretty slow in comparison, so I don't think that its capture rate creates a bottleneck. 1.3 gb buffer sounds like a lot but I remember that my kodak slr/n had 512mb buffer 6 years ago and its file sizes were pretty small. I guess we have to wait and see what real life figures produce.
    We WILL have to wait and see real life figures. I don't want anyone to misunderstand; we have not had a P40+ to test because Phase has (I think wisely) decided to play more like Apple and announce a product only when it's finished, fit, and ready to ship.

    However, the speed of a back is more about the read-off-of-sensor, internal processing and write-to-CF speed than about the buffer. In other words, most of the time the entire image will be written to card before the next shot is taken; it is very hard to hit the buffer in real life shooting with a P30+ (the closest equivalent I actually have in-hand today) assuming you have an Extreme IV CF card or a fast computer for tethering.

    When I have one to test (or when Guy does) we'll confirm that this basic premise of P+ backs has remained true.

    Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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    Re: Phase One P45 Plus back

    Quote Originally Posted by Rethmeier View Post
    (and light years ahead of any dSLRs) LOL
    Quote Originally Posted by foto-z View Post
    Doug, thanks for posting those samples.

    Sorry to nitpick but on that page it is written:
    "The P40+ packs the same jaw dropping 12.5 stops of dynamic range as the flagship P65+, the highest dynamic range in medium format digital (and light years ahead of any dSLRs)."

    But...the Nikon D3X seems to have over 13 stops as well as some others:
    http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/eng...D3X/(metrics)/
    I'm a pretty technically savvy guy and I can't tell you what is up with DxOMark's tests. What I can tell you is that if you shoot a D3x and a P65+ side by side and them process them in a variety of different programs the amount of shadow and highlight detail which can be rendered is not similar; the P65+ wins hands down. There is no reason to take my word or DxOMark's word for it however; either
    1) ask the opinion of any of the many users on this forum (many already have their P65+).
    2) come to one of Guy/Jacks' workshops where a variety of backs/dSLRs are on hand and everyone is happy to share/loan gear.
    3) come to our studio (for free) in ATL or Miami or a similar company in many other cities and shoot them for yourself; we'll even buy you lunch and/or take you to a nearby scenic area
    4) pay to rent a system to compare on your own turf. Many companies (including mine) will rent a digital back for the purpose of testing for a large discount of the list rental price (usually you have to agree to rent at a time which is not busy - like over the weekend)

    One more note on that; DR is a multi faceted term. One area which is hard to numerically represent (and harder to find an independent party with access to the gear to do so) is color accuracy in the shadows and the TYPE of noise/grain generated. One of the shocking things about playing with a Phase One raw file (and to be fair probably a raw file from any of the best digital backs, but my experience is with Phase and C1 processing is really really good) is just how accurate the colors are when you pull up a shadow which was previously completely blocked up, and just how natural looking the grain/noise is.

    Re: foto-z (that rhymes): before Capture One 4.X was released there was no highlight/shadow recovery tool which made accessing the dynamic range of the back difficult. A large part of this IS the software, so I wonder (but have no personal knowledge) if the Sinar file contains more information than you can easily access. I say this because having shot every high end dSLR and most of Phase's lineup I'm very surprised to hear you say that about your Sinar, but I'm happy to admit that I know the least about Sinar of any camera/back system. One way of testing this is to under or over expose two stops and correct in the software to see what detail you get. In C13 you would have needed to process an image once normally and once with a two stop pull and combine in PS to access the highlight detail that was in the file. Now you can simply pull the highlight/shadow slider down in C14. The same file placed in ACR or LR yields less usable highlight/shadow recovery than in C14; likely because some very very smart PHDs at P1 spend literally hundreds of hours tweaking the processing math for each digital back and also have a direct line of communication (and share lunch/beer) with the guys who design/implement the hardware.

    It is my personal phrase "light years ahead" and I admit it's a bit marketing oriented (mind you everyone this is our "product page"). However, one thing about dynamic range is that the difference of half a stop or a stop of dynamic range is the difference between a cheek which has tone and a cheek which is pure-white, or a wedding dress which still has textural detail or a wedding dress which is just pure-white. So in difficult situations a little more DR means a LOT less work in post-production.

    Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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    Re: Phase One P40 Plus back

    Guy,
    The P40+ and the P30+ are actually sporting the same ISO range, just having the P30+ tuned to a base ISO of 100 rather than the ISO 50 of the P40+. Then there is the Sensor+ technology above that, which interests some more than others.

    The P40+ looks like an interesting option, but I do not think you will have too much trouble with your P30+, which I thought was the way you should have gone from the start ;-)

    LJ

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One P40 Plus back

    Yes I am happy with the P30+. The P40+ does add the speed for sure on shooting and some more mpx. I'm not doing anything now but it is a option down the road. I would like to test the 2 side by side and see what we come up with on both of them. Be a good test since they are exactly the same crop factor and it is a matter of just switching backs which makes a comparison much more accurate. Just lock it all down and switch backs. Need to get my body out the door and get the firmware updated first though. I think 1.5 is the latest. I'm at 1. Scary lol
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Phase One P40 Plus back

    So it looks like they've prepared a "slot" for a P50+ in all of this too; a 1.1 lens factor back. Or am I just spokin' a different brand of crack?

    As a mostly landscape guy (with MFDB anyway), I'm enjoying my lowly P25+ and would step to a P45+ for larger prints. But a "P50+" would get my attention if it were considerably less than a P65+. I'd need to reconcile the exposure limit of one minute though, however I rarely need longer than one minute.

    It's good to see development in the space, regardless of personal wants and needs in the details or specs (i.e. a better LCD would be nice, but no biggie to me).

  37. #37
    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One P45 Plus back

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    One more note on that; DR is a multi faceted term. One area which is hard to numerically represent (and harder to find an independent party with access to the gear to do so) is color accuracy in the shadows and the TYPE of noise/grain generated.
    Hi Doug, DR is very clearly defined. It is the ratio between the lowest and highest signal which can be captured before clipping occurs. *If* a Nikon can do that for 13 stops then it has a greater DR, case closed.

    It is not an indication of image quality and I believe that the digital backs may still have the edge there (I haven't used a D3X so I can't compare). Colour accuracy isn't relevant to DR - only luminance.

    You wrote: "there was no highlight/shadow recovery tool which made accessing the dynamic range of the back difficult. " Recovered highlights are not part of the DR of the back. It is not real data, but just an intelligent extrapolation of the blown out channel based on the other channels. Clever stuff and very useful, but it's not part of the DR of the back

    Btw, I also have had great success in pushing shadows from the Sinar files. One of the nice things about an MFDB

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    Re: Phase One P45 Plus back

    Quote Originally Posted by foto-z View Post
    Hi Doug, DR is very clearly defined. It is the ratio between the lowest and highest signal which can be captured before clipping occurs. *If* a Nikon can do that for 13 stops then it has a greater DR, case closed.

    It is not an indication of image quality and I believe that the digital backs may still have the edge there (I haven't used a D3X so I can't compare). Colour accuracy isn't relevant to DR - only luminance.

    You wrote: "there was no highlight/shadow recovery tool which made accessing the dynamic range of the back difficult. " Recovered highlights are not part of the DR of the back. It is not real data, but just an intelligent extrapolation of the blown out channel based on the other channels. Clever stuff and very useful, but it's not part of the DR of the back

    Btw, I also have had great success in pushing shadows from the Sinar files. One of the nice things about an MFDB
    I was a programmer for a vibration analysis company before and during college and I'm a pretty big nerd in general so I am intimately familiar with signal-to-noise. I agree that this is the sole determinant of DR as measured scientifically. By no means however is this the end of the story for those who are interested in the final image.

    Most people mean DR as "how much of the scene's shadows and highlights I can put on paper (or into web pixels or whatever)". In this practical context the ability for the software to reach into the recorded signal and render out meaningful, color accurate, and detailed information is as much a part of the equation as anything else. One huge example is the black-cal file (taken even at short shutter speeds) which isolates the quantity and type of noise on the sensor in order to suppress it during processing. Only Phase One software can access that black-cal file and that information helps reduce shadow noise (also helps lengthen the max exposure times) with minimal lose of real data.

    I imagine you and I can have a very informed and excruciatingly technical conversation about the theoretical or scientifically measured DR of various digital backs and cameras. Provided that someone wants to shoot line charts, step patterns then that conversation would prove meaningful. For practical applications however the software, the type of noise, the color accuracy of shadows, and the ease of playing with the reproduced DR of the file are all important.

    If this discussion seems overly technical to some then here is the summary:
    If you shoot a difficult scene with a D3X and a Phase Back* and handle each well you will get more detail out of the highlights and shadows with the Phase back, and the quality/texture/aesthetics/feel of those shadows and highlights is judged by most as being more pleasing/natural and less "digital".

    *Again I'm not claiming Phase is the only brand for which this is true; I just prefer to make claims that I have personally verified.

    Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One P40 Plus back

    Folks,

    I am sorry, but I think it is really ridiculous to compare a D3X with any MFDB! These are no serious comparisons.

    Simple physical constraints for DSLR size FF sensors compared to MFDBs.

    But I have some general issues with the P40+

    I would like to understand, why Phase makes these kind of product decisions like developing a P40+ back. Although I understand that they are proud of this development, for me this is an absolutely uninteresting product, as it comes with a 1.3 crop which I do not like for my work and which would never bring me to buy into a digital MF system. I cannot think that too many photographers are really looking for this, but who knows, obviously Phase marketing and PM will know better I hope.

    To be honest I would have gone rather for a kind of P50+ with the same sensor architecture but crop 1.1 and an interesting price in the area a bit above (not too much) of the current P45+

    At least for me this would have been very appealing and think not only for me
    Last edited by ptomsu; 30th April 2009 at 12:33.

  40. #40
    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One P40 Plus back

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Doug, I would not waste my time in these discussions, they are just meaningless and show only pure ignorance from the people starting them again and again.
    Apparently you didn't read the thread (speaking of ignorance). It started with a statement on Doug's website comparing Phase backs with DSLRs. Oh the irony...

  41. #41
    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One P40 Plus back

    Quote Originally Posted by foto-z View Post
    Apparently you didn't read the thread (speaking of ignorance). It started with a statement on Doug's website comparing Phase backs with DSLRs. Oh the irony...
    Well, I only can reiterate, it is nonsense in my mind to compare DSLR and MFDB. Just the basic physical knowledge tells you that this is nonsense.

    DSLR is DSLR and it is good for what it is built and designed.

    MFDB is MFDB and it has its own area of application and quality.

    Comparing the 2 worlds is really comparing apples and oranges or whatever you like to throw in here - pure waste of time

  42. #42
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    Re: P40+?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I always liked the chart comparing the different backs. Check this out big buffer on the new back
    ROFL Awesome!

    So I went looking for that chart on the web. Google gave me the DPI thread (pretty high up on the search results Woo! Hoo!

    and Guy seals the deal w/ the chart I was looking for.

    And to answer your next question. No.

    No way in H-E-double-hockey-sticks am I getting into medium format! Ever! Period! uhm, maybe. Ask me later.

  43. #43
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    Re: P40+?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisDauer View Post

    And to answer your next question. No.

    No way in H-E-double-hockey-sticks am I getting into medium format! Ever! Period! uhm, maybe. Ask me later.
    Last time I heard words like come out of your mouth wasn't it about the M8? Then was it what, like a month later you showed up with more M gear than Guy, Mike and I combined owned?


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    Re: P40+?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rethmeier View Post
    (and light years ahead of any dSLRs) LOL
    Quote Originally Posted by foto-z View Post
    Doug, thanks for posting those samples.

    Sorry to nitpick but on that page it is written:
    "The P40+ packs the same jaw dropping 12.5 stops of dynamic range as the flagship P65+, the highest dynamic range in medium format digital (and light years ahead of any dSLRs)."

    But...the Nikon D3X seems to have over 13 stops as well as some others:
    http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/eng...D3X/(metrics)/
    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisDauer View Post
    ROFL Awesome!

    So I went looking for that chart on the web. Google gave me the DPI thread (pretty high up on the search results Woo! Hoo!

    and Guy seals the deal w/ the chart I was looking for.

    And to answer your next question. No.

    No way in H-E-double-hockey-sticks am I getting into medium format! Ever! Period! uhm, maybe. Ask me later.
    I've made a Chris Dauer Voodoo doll and the minute I get a P40+ demo unit I'm putting it in the hands of the Voodoo doll.

    You're doomed!

    Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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    Re: Phase One P40 Plus back

    I just laugh at the open platform boast - you know along the lines "you can choose any mount you like"

    - an open platform back allows the user to change mounts Doug ANY time they like as in immediately as in umm NOW ...also there are three other manufacturers of digi backs that can say exactly the same thing as Phase - with their similalrly 'open' which arent 'open' designs - and only 2 manufacturers that satisfy my definition of open - (that would be Sinar and Hasselblad)

    keep up the marketing BS .

    This forum could self regulate and clear for marketing BS - that would differentiate it from most. Phase is the clear leader in the BS and obfuscation department

    This is why you should buy a Phase P45+ or whatever - you pay more for the back BUT you get a whole bunch of glass thrown in for free!!

  46. #46
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    Re: Phase One P45 Plus back

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    I was a programmer for a vibration analysis company before and during college and I'm a pretty big nerd in general so I am intimately familiar with signal-to-noise. I agree that this is the sole determinant of DR as measured scientifically. By no means however is this the end of the story for those who are interested in the final image.

    Most people mean DR as "how much of the scene's shadows and highlights I can put on paper (or into web pixels or whatever)". In this practical context the ability for the software to reach into the recorded signal and render out meaningful, color accurate, and detailed information is as much a part of the equation as anything else. One huge example is the black-cal file (taken even at short shutter speeds) which isolates the quantity and type of noise on the sensor in order to suppress it during processing. Only Phase One software can access that black-cal file and that information helps reduce shadow noise (also helps lengthen the max exposure times) with minimal lose of real data.

    I imagine you and I can have a very informed and excruciatingly technical conversation about the theoretical or scientifically measured DR of various digital backs and cameras. Provided that someone wants to shoot line charts, step patterns then that conversation would prove meaningful. For practical applications however the software, the type of noise, the color accuracy of shadows, and the ease of playing with the reproduced DR of the file are all important.

    If this discussion seems overly technical to some then here is the summary:
    If you shoot a difficult scene with a D3X and a Phase Back* and handle each well you will get more detail out of the highlights and shadows with the Phase back, and the quality/texture/aesthetics/feel of those shadows and highlights is judged by most as being more pleasing/natural and less "digital".

    *Again I'm not claiming Phase is the only brand for which this is true; I just prefer to make claims that I have personally verified.

    Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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    Well, I don't have a D3X nor a P65+, but I do have Sony a900 and a P45+. There is NO and I mean NO comparison when it comes to DR, clarity and what I call immediacy. The P45+ is simply better.

    But I don't use it for shooting birds in flight!

    Bill

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    Re: Phase One P40 Plus back

    I use my eyes for a DXO test. LOL

    Honestly they may mean something to some folks and that is fine but I like to see things and that tells me so much more. I really am not a scientific mind and it may seem wrong to say these things but I just have no interest or do not know enough mentally about this stuff but my eyes are extremely good and that is my best asset.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Phase One P45 Plus back

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Caulfeild-Browne View Post
    Well, I don't have a D3X nor a P65+, but I do have Sony a900 and a P45+. There is NO and I mean NO comparison when it comes to DR, clarity and what I call immediacy. The P45+ is simply better.

    But I don't use it for shooting birds in flight!

    Bill
    Bill,

    maybe you try it for birdshot - would be a real challenge

    And you can crop afterwards, because of the MPs you have

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    Re: Phase One P40 Plus back

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    I just laugh at the open platform boast - you know along the lines "you can choose any mount you like"

    - an open platform back allows the user to change mounts Doug ANY time they like as in immediately as in umm NOW
    Not for me it doesn't... I want my back to mount TIGHT to the body with zero slop and most importantly, I want it to be PERFECTLY parallel to the lens projection plane! I am of the opinion that any mount I can change myself, as in right now without tools, simply cannot be made to the tolerances to keep it both tight and perfectly parallel, especially since now it has two separate mounting methodologies to deal with; one for the back to the camera and the other for the camera-specific adapter mount plate to the back. A better chance to experience additive tolerance error...

    But then I'm not a mechanical engineer, just a stupid photographer... Oh wait, maybe that's the problem with allowing me to swap out precision mounts!
    Jack
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  50. #50
    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One P45 Plus back

    Quote Originally Posted by jmvdigital View Post
    Someone has a typo. In the CI specs Guy posted above, it states a 1.4 frames/sec at full resolution, and in the first comparison spec sheet from Phase, it says 1.2.

    Doesn't matter one bit to me, but it caught my eye anyway.

    Is 0.4 captures/sec faster worth a "all about speed" marketing title over the P30+? Seems like splitting hairs. Sure, that's 50% faster technically, but in the real world, is that speed even noticeable? That's like from now to now, nowtonow, nowNOW, now.

    Justin

    In my experience, a half second difference - especially going from 1.25 to .08 is very significant, in any light. I have felt myself missing shots on numerous occasions with a P30+ - mostly expressions, or a movement. I'm not shooting a bunch of shots in a row, just making selective exposures, but often it's a see, react and fire. At one shot every 1.25 seconds, sometimes it is see, react, .....can't quite fire yet, crap!. I saw the shot, the moment, knew that was it, and just missed it. The P40+ is going to fire faster than I can react - in most cases. Or put another way, it will be ready to fire.

    And that is really the function this product is targeted for. That it has some additional niceties like a generous amount of resolution, and good high ISO make it a well rounded package.


    Steve Hendrix
    Phase One

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