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Thread: P45+, M8 or 5DII for the ABC?

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    P45+, M8 or 5DII for the ABC?

    I've been offered the gig of shooting the Archbishop of Canterbury (ABC) at Lambeth Palace. The shots will be used for a press archive and for general publicity use.

    Flattered as I am, this is not the sort of thing I do. As anyone who has ever seen my website will see, there aren't many people shots and I never use anything but ambient light. I have no experience with using formal portraiture techniques in the studio or with flash, nor do I generally like that sort of work when I see it done by others. I don't even really like using reflectors.

    So if I say 'yes' to the offer, I'd be relying on my ability to find the rights spots and light around the place.

    My first thought is to take the Phase/Phamiya setup with the standard lens and some extension tubes. But then I could take my 5DII and be less likely to suffer shutter and mirror slap blur. Or I could take my M8 and dance like a butterfly with some lovely glass and only myself to blame for focus.

    What would YOU do?

    Best

    Tim

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    Re: P45+, M8 or 5DII for the ABC?

    I would bring the DSLR with a flash for fill - only use the flash if the light is bad.
    I would aslo bring the M8 with a fast lens.
    I am pretty sure I would not bring MF-kit.

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    Re: P45+, M8 or 5DII for the ABC?

    Pass it off to an experienced portrait shooter? Seriously and no offense, with a cheese as big as this one, if you don't have the know how...
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

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    Re: P45+, M8 or 5DII for the ABC?

    I'd also bring 5D2 and M8, the latter probably with the 50 Lux ASPH, and look for some nice natural light. Make a couple of safe shots with the 5D2 and then experiment a little with the M8, probably at ISO 320, if possible, wide open.
    Carsten - Website

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    Senior Member kdphotography's Avatar
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    Re: P45+, M8 or 5DII for the ABC?

    And from the other side of the gallery----I'd use the MFDB for this important portrait session---but also with studio lights. Working with ambient light only, it really depends on the location and situation.....

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: P45+, M8 or 5DII for the ABC?

    I'm with Ken. Bring the horse to do a real job.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: P45+, M8 or 5DII for the ABC?

    I would do it with 5D2 and M8

    On 5D2 I would use my 1.2/85 and the 2.8/16-35

    On the M8 I would use the 1.4/35ASPH, 1.0/Nocti (you need no light if you use this lens) or my 1.4/50ASPH

    If I would use MFDB (which I do not have so far) I would use some studio lightning - requires a lot of setup, but if you do it right with - say Broncolor equipment - the results will be stunning guaranteed.

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: P45+, M8 or 5DII for the ABC?

    Wow, a no-brainer for me. I would use the big gun and not even look back -- I mean isn't that why you bought it in the first place? I would take the 75-150D, 80D and 150/2.8D for sure, and probably a wide.
    Jack
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    Re: P45+, M8 or 5DII for the ABC?

    I've shot many celebrities and dignitaries before with all having the same limitation, time.
    Knowing that ahead of time take gear that will give you the fastest workflow.

    I'd make the 5D2 the main camera with the M8 and your favorite lens as the backup.

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    Re: P45+, M8 or 5DII for the ABC?

    Just to follow up. A good example is Annie Liebovitz photographing the queen with a 1DS III where she clearly has access to any MF camera on the market.

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    Subscriber gogopix's Avatar
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    Re: P45+, M8 or 5DII for the ABC?

    You haven't mentioned all the conditions; fixed location or 'typical day'? Can you preset strobes (I would imagine monos reflected off wall/ceiling.
    What is output? print? Large format? website, newqsletter? would make a difference to me.
    "Professionally" I have only done corp site work and conferences and a calendar and some travel for a website. MF is tough indoors (we'll see about sensor+
    With MFDB composition will be less critical-you just have SO many pixels to play with, but if it is minimally intrusive, I would seriously consider the M8 50 lux. Don't forget many pros do well with flash and diffuser (use one with dual stobes. I actually have had great luck with the M8 and Contax flash (380) on auto-small flash in front and Diffuser up.

    Soiunds interesting. I actually, WDR to the pros, this is YOUR gig. They picked you - so, maybe without a lot of stock portrait work you can bring an innovative appraoch. Maybe treat the environment as a "person landscape " for the ABC etc.
    From what I.ve seen you'll do a good job-as long as your equipment doesn't fail. BTW take all three, at least in the car!
    regards
    Victor

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: P45+, M8 or 5DII for the ABC?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sharokin View Post
    I've shot many celebrities and dignitaries before with all having the same limitation, time.
    Knowing that ahead of time take gear that will give you the fastest workflow.

    I'd make the 5D2 the main camera with the M8 and your favorite lens as the backup.
    WHY does everyone think the MF is the slow boat to China , these are the most ridicules comments I hear all the time. Not picking on you at all but I shoot everyday with a MF and there is nothing I can't shoot with this thing except sports and even than I do it. I laugh all the time when I hear comments like this. I literally can shoot anything with MF and there are only limitations between the ears. It's a camera just like any other camera, just takes some different techniques to work with like any other camera.

    It just had to be said , sorry folks. Putting limitations on gear is putting limitations on your work and on your brain as soon as you think you can't do it with a piece of gear. There tools and nothing is going to save you unless you work the tools. Getting a great image is the key and the better the file the better the shot the better the chances you will get that call again. Put your best foot forward or turn it down. Sorry I am not in a great mood today after showing up for a gig and it is cancelled without warning. I think I will just stay off the forum today
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: P45+, M8 or 5DII for the ABC?

    Guy,

    Because the subject might ask you to shoot in a location where high iso challenged MF cameras with slower lenses can't do as well as the DSLR's.
    Or perhaps he might give you five minutes (very likely) to do the shoot where a DSLR IS faster.

    BTW, I have three MF cameras, 4x5, and use them all the time. When time is critical getting the image is all that matters.

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    Subscriber gogopix's Avatar
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    Re: P45+, M8 or 5DII for the ABC?

    Nothing to be sorry about, Guy! Having been on the receiving end of some potshots (Not ALWAYS unwarranted ) I can say it gets you thinking.

    Sometimes being straight and blunt amongst friends, well I think it makes us better friends because we let our hair down and are honest in our feelings.

    Sometimes gut reactions are the best.

    warm regards
    Victor

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: P45+, M8 or 5DII for the ABC?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sharokin View Post
    Guy,

    Because the subject might ask you to shoot in a location where high iso challenged MF cameras with slower lenses can't do as well as the DSLR's.
    Or perhaps he might give you five minutes (very likely) to do the shoot where a DSLR IS faster.

    BTW, I have three MF cameras, 4x5, and use them all the time. When time is critical getting the image is all that matters.
    I'm under that same gun as well. I have done things in 30 seconds with CEO's and such, get in setup just like any other shot. DSLR's are great but if a MF is sitting there I am grabbing it first. Power I agree can sometimes be a issue but I also have a back that can go easy ISO 800 and mission critical like this I would not want to shoot 800 with any camera. Obviously we don't have all the details and a lot of that counts as well but I would think MF first and everything else is secondary depending on conditions.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: P45+, M8 or 5DII for the ABC?

    Thanks for all the advice and thoughts guys (and Guy!).

    The full brief is not yet clear other than that it's at Lambeth Palace so they know they'll not be getting studio shots.

    Output is for press photos, website use, promotional stuff so I think it unlikely that they'd want to print larger than say A3 tops and mostly A4 or less BUT there's something about the subtlety and range of MF that I'd like, regardless of its pixel count.

    ISO is likely to be a problem however since a certain amount will be inside. I'll be going for a chiaroscuro look I think, my first thought is to use strong light from a just out of shot window to light the subject, with a richly textured (wood, cloth, leather, books?) background dimly lit and tailing off into darkness. He is a very considered and intelligent man and that's what I'd like to try to bring out.

    I have no doubt that Guy and Jack are right and that with the right level of experience with the Phase setup for portraiture it would give wonderful results but I learned on my Icelandic adventure that you should NOT use it under circumstances where you have yet to bottom out its particular traits so I think I won't risk it - though I might just consider using it and buying and taking with me a couple of continuous lights such as Bowens SL455s. However, my USP as a photographer has been working with ambient only and i think that's what I best do. So most likely I'll take an M8 with a 50 lux and nothing else.

    Or that's what It'll look like! I think the M8 puts people at their ease and that turning up with nothing else (no flash, bag, tripod, meter, lenses) is what I have done before on the rare occasions I've shot people so it's a routine I know.

    But in the car there'll be a 5DII with a flashgun. Just in case.

    Anyone got experience with this continuous stuff? I'd use it low and diffused so as to simulate or augment a window, or to spread gentle light on the background. I would avoid the pinhole pupil syndrome by not pointing it directly at His Grace!

    I like the point about AL and the Queen though I vaguely remember that the end result was a sort of montage?

    Tim

    ps I should add that I have shot him informally before and that's part of what his press office has seen.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: P45+, M8 or 5DII for the ABC?

    Bottom line Tim is do what is certainly the most comfortable that will give you success. That is first and foremost priority regardless of gear. MF has it's certain charms but if your feeling uneasy than DON'T use it. It will bite you if your unsure of yourself and you knowledge of it in these kinds of situations that are on unfamiliar ground.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Subscriber Member Georg Baumann's Avatar
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    Re: P45+, M8 or 5DII for the ABC?

    EXODUS 20:3

    You shall have no other gods before me.


    If I would be challenged with this assignment, even after using a P45+ only for one day, I would shoot as many frames as I can with it. Of course, in opposite to the good book, I would bring the 5DII along. Hehehe.

    BEST OF LUCK TIM!

    Would be nice to see some results here if you are allowed to post them.

  19. #19
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    Re: P45+, M8 or 5DII for the ABC?

    Well, they're in definite need of help in the image department. Why not shoot with an Alpa, 4x5, or 8x10 camera? Decide what kind of portrait you're making and then choose the camera. The criteria for which camera to use should not be which camera is easiest to hand hold and get in focus.













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    Re: P45+, M8 or 5DII for the ABC?

    I see a couple of M8 shots in that series (#4 and #5)
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: P45+, M8 or 5DII for the ABC?

    I'm late to this gala, but in the mood to chime in.

    First, I'd make it clear that people and portraits isn't your main area, so that "if they're cool with it, you're cool with it". This can make the shoot a lot more fun IMO. (Speaking from personal experience. )

    Second, I usually feel that people should shoot the kit that's most comfortable for them if there's to be any pressure to deliver.

    For me, I'd likely shoot a combo kit, depending on the actual logistics. I'd have the MF kit with glass geared to the session (i.e. 55mm to 150mm focal lengths), and the 5DII with at least the 85mm f/1.2, and maybe the 24-70 and 135mm f/2.0. A couple fast primes could replace the zoom, but if walking around and sniping, the 24-70 is pretty handy, especially with the described application of the images. (Sorry, I like my 24-70 L for certain things. ) If it's a casual session, swapping kits shouldn't be a problem. No offense intended, but he's just a guy and surely would understand you wanting to get different looks.

    AND, I'd ask if I could have a casual walk through the area that I'd be ask to shoot within. I read the thread and didn't see that mentioned. Sorry if I missed it in your description.

    MOSTLY, congratulations for you and your work being viewed such that they'd ask you to do this. I hope it's fun for you.

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: P45+, M8 or 5DII for the ABC?

    Thanks Dale. As it happens I have already asked for a walk through at an earlier date than the shoot so I can choose my locations and plan my lighting. I also this morning got a friend to model in a similar lighting situation to the one I hope to use (richly decorated room with subject facing a window as the only light source, window out of shot and parts of the room that appear in shot in fairly deep shade). I then took the same shot with Phamiya/80mm 2.8 and M8 with 50 lux and the results were interesting. Confoundingly, at 1/25th second and handheld I got sharper results with the Phamiya. I do know from experience that this was just lucky! But the Phamiya result just looked a lot nicer even at normal screen size though I suspect this might be partly influenced by the fact that I used C1 for the Phase file and LR for the M8 file.

    In any event it seems that F5.6 is the right aperture at 1.5 metres to get an entire head in focus with nice bokeh for the background. The downside is that means ISO 200 and a very slow shutter and believe me I won't be trusting this to handheld, so that means a tripod, MUP, cable release etc.

    So I'm already revising my plan... to shoot most of it with the Phamiya and then do some 5DII shots as an insurance policy...

    Thanks again for the help

    Tim

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: P45+, M8 or 5DII for the ABC?

    How many times do I need to say this? ()

    http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showpo...6&postcount=26

    Really, it is time for you to move LR to the back of the room. C1 is superior for BOTH M8 and Canon files in addition to being THE converter for Phase files...

    (sorry)

    PS: And perhaps you are not getting any luckier with the Phase, just more familiar? ()
    Jack
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    Re: P45+, M8 or 5DII for the ABC?

    Jack, I know that you have asserted that C-1 is superior to other tools for Canon files before, and I respect and accept your statement – especially when you're the one operating C-1. I'm not a Lightroom guy, but do use Bridge/ACR/PS for my Canon files (because that's what I have, and have used until now) and sometimes cuss my way through it. My C-1 version is only the DB version. Can you describe your experience in how C-1 improves the RAW conversion of Canon files, especially now that you're shooting more Canon gear now?

    I'm not so interested in workflow differences, as that's subjective and takes a bit of personal retraining to change. I'm curious about the image quality differences that you're seeing. I've read your posts on this subject in the past, and maybe I'm being a bit dense, but is there a short answer other than "it's better" that could be bit more specific? It will help to see what to look for when I attempt to compare the two.

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    Re: P45+, M8 or 5DII for the ABC?

    Three things I have noticed that C1 does noticeably better than LR with some photos is white balance, noise and sharpness. This is with an M8. I don't know if the same holds for Canon.
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: P45+, M8 or 5DII for the ABC?

    Thanks Carsten. I have read this often of the M-8 files. I'm not great with C-1 but improving (need to sit with Jack or Doug for a few hours I think ), but feel comfortable, if not particularly impressed, when using my old tools on my Canon files. I will say that while there are things about C-1 that I like, there are several attributes that I really hate, so hope to learn of the specific incentives to work the Canon files there too.

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    Re: P45+, M8 or 5DII for the ABC?

    I guess no one can tell you whether you'll want to work in C1 every day, but I think that putting a few Canon files through C1 and LR as a test would be a test whose results could answer that. If you pick photos which push your personal requirements hard, then you might see some differences leading to conclusions.

    Personally, although I know that LR isn't the best for my files, I still haven't switched away from it. I hate manual organization of files with a passion. If I can find (or develop!) an organizational tool which would wrap around C1, I would probably switch.

    On a different note, has anyone here tried RPP, a.k.a. Raw Photo Processor? It is really weird, and can only do single images, but the colours and sharpness are top-notch.
    Carsten - Website

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: P45+, M8 or 5DII for the ABC?

    Hi Dale:

    Re IQ differences, Carsten pretty much nailed it --- C1 tends to produce better color and a more detailed file than Adobe. And we should point out that LR and ACR now have identical raw processors, so we can use them interchangeably at least as respect raw conversions.

    As to what specifically to look for. On color, I see the base profile being better, which translates to more accurate color in general. Skin tones are generally more accurate and pleasing as are things we regularly see like an accurate blue for skies. On detail and noise, you need to understand they are interrelated. Here if you compare a file optimally converted by both methods, the C1 file will almost always show better fine or high-frequency detail. In noisier files, the C1 conversions appear smoother, yet seem to hold detail better, which is counter-intuitive and I have no explanation other than C1 has superior deconvolution algorithms.

    Hope that helps,
    Jack
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    Re: P45+, M8 or 5DII for the ABC?

    Jack (and Carsten), that helps a lot. Thank you. I have not tried the demo of C-1 yet on my Canon files because to be fair to it I need to upgrade my Mac to best run the latest version. This also means some peripheral upgrades, etc. I'm still stalling on this upgrade while the economy has me in a bit of a choke-hold (along with some HUGE medical expenses in my household, etc.)

    Frankly, I'm shooting my Canon kit very rarely right now, and C-1 is the tool I use for my Phase files prior to moving them to PS for print output. I will look at C-1 with an eye to comparing the high-frequency detail, as this is where I have been most annoyed by ACR. And to be fair to C-1, some of the nit picks that I have whined about with the UI have been addressed or at least partially so in the latest updates.

    (And I was aware that LR and ACR use the raw processor. I just don't like LR's UI or file system. Unlike Carsten, I like a manual catalogue system. )

    Thank you again.

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: P45+, M8 or 5DII for the ABC?

    Just my two penny worth: I posted examples many months ago to show just how much better C1 is with both Phase and M8 files and I am a firm believer in it. My workflow now, since I value LR for its cataloguing features and some of its additional editing abilities such as for example local area adjustments, is:

    For C1 files: import into C1, make all 'input level' adjustments and select picks. Export picks to LR for cataloguing and any further adjustments in LR and/or (rarely) Photoshop.

    For M8 files: import into LR and do everything basic there but if the files is a real winner and likely to be used for something serious, pop the original through C1 and export a 16bit TIFF back to LR.

    Like Dale, I have C1DB. I also have the M8 version of C1 Lite. I don't hve a version that handles Canon raws and keep meaning to purchase an upgrade since I am frankly sick of launching two different version of C1 and would also like to use it on my best Canon files. I have no doubt that it will give the best results.

    Tim

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    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: P45+, M8 or 5DII for the ABC?

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Three things I have noticed that C1 does noticeably better than LR with some photos is white balance, noise and sharpness. This is with an M8. I don't know if the same holds for Canon.
    Same holds for Canon and Nikon as well!

    I am using my C1 Pro since many years, it always supported RAW formats of different new cameras as the FIRST SW and it is noticeably better in doing this than any competition.

    My order of RAW converter quality is following:

    1) C1 Pro
    2) Aperture
    3) LR and PS

    And BTW - if you use C1 Pro it supports all RAWs, so no issue with different versions for different cameras!

    My workflow is now: use C1 Pro as importing and storing and editing tool. If I really want to do further work on some files (like printing or publishing) then I export TIF Files from C1 Pro and do the rest with PS CS3. BTW - no better print engine than in PS! If I need to do editing of Metadata, I do it in Bridge - while Bridge sucks for all other things (very slow, bad colors etc) it is stellar for editing Metadata.

    I continue using Aperture for fancy archiving jobs Not sure I really need these.

    PS: C1 Pro became so important to me, that it will influence my decision for which MF system to buy with at least 30% !!! Translates into - if S2 is not fully supported by C1, then this is a clear no go for me!

    PPS: And since C1 is supporting of course Phase One Backs, this is the most likely solution for digital MF for me!

  32. #32
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: P45+, M8 or 5DII for the ABC?

    Peter,

    Well said!
    Jack
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    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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